I always thought I'd like victoriana or something companion. Then we can have not just the usual marvel, but also marvel at modern day stuff, and different way of thinking
Possible spoilers: Wasn't it said that Moffat wanted Victorian Clara to be the companion? I thought I read that was the plan but the BBC wanted her to be current day so people could relate to her.
@@kryten1016 I heard an interview with Moffat once where he said if he heard a review describing a show as either non-linear, gimmicky or a bit up itself, either he wrote it or its a show he'd want to watch.
@@kryten1016 Is it genius though? It seems like he made it up as he went along to me. A good example of this kind of non-linear character development is in a show like "Dark".
Way I see it, he married river yes, but they are time travelers so either, it's fine, or it's wrong for him to flirt with Clara, and same with river, since same logic applies and he almost certainly had a wife previously.
Katrina, you really needed to tell Paula the gap between Amy & Rory's departure and this Christmas episode. Binge watching it without context is giving Paula an erroneous reason to critique.
She did mention at some point that the last episode was a mid-season finale, and the current episode was a Christmas episode. But otherwise, I do find that Katrina hasn't been very good at explaining things that Paula finds problematic, including the Doctor's marriage not being like a regular marriage (how can it be, with two time travelers?)
Katrina _did_ tell her and Paula even nodded and said something like "Makes sense". The problem is, knowing something isn't the same as feeling it i.e. having that bit of knowledge doesn't change the fact that Paula _feels_ like it's only been a week since Amy and Rory "died" (because for her it has). It's a weird one IMO. On one hand, she should absolutely feel what she feels (that's kind of the whole point of reactions after all) but on the other, it's hard to shake the impression that her feelings are misguided (note: not just "different to mine" :) because they're based on viewing the episode without that context of extra "adjustment time". _That_ said, i've watched a bunch of reactors to "The Snowmen", all of whom watched it a week (maybe less) after "The Angels Take..." and literally everyone else i've seen has seemed to really enjoy it (including Victorian Clara). So maybe Paula would feel the same regardless of the time skip ? Maybe Moffat just _really_ isn't her cup of tea in other words.
It should speak volumes that I often forget when recalling the different Series for this show, that this episode and The Bells of Saint John _AREN'T_ the start of Series 7. Because that's where Clara was fully introduced, and there was so much fanfare sending off Eleven on the way to Series 8, with I believe multiple specials, the first half of Series 7 sticks in my mind as some kind of weird intermission or Series 6 post-series. Because I was there when we waited for these episodes, and especially with the time gap, it really felt like this was where the 7th Series really kicked off. So the fact that it felt that way at the time means it felt very different watching it then on that time scale, than it does just watching the episodes a week or even days or hours apart. I can definitely see how that would come off a bit weird to someone and throw them off.
@@anonymes2884 with TV, especially Doctor Who, and especially MOFFAT Doctor Who, a lot of the writing is engineered for the current zeitgeist of the fandom at the time, based on what they do and don't know, and that's very much lost when you're doing reactions years after the fact It's conflicting because as a fan of this era when it was airing, it felt like it was being made specifically for people like me at the time because it literally was, but at the same time it's disappointing that people watching it years later can't quite get as much out of it because they don't have the necessary cultural context that they didn't know was necessary
Romantic interaction... Not every time that he is friendly to a female, does it equate to romance. Plus, when he kissed her on the forehead, that is so far removed from anything romantic. She's dying... It's the same kind of thing that you would do to a kid when they get hurt. It is pretty much a "you'll be okay."
The Doctor has been married a number of times. He clearly does not view marriage the same way a normal human does. Neither does River. You know who would not have cared about the Doctor kissing Clara? River. If anything she may have been jealous of the Doctor.
Supposedly The Doctor has been married 3 times, to the unseen woman who had his child(ren) and is Susan's grandmom, Marilyn Monroe (mentioned Matt Smith's 1st Christmas story), and River.
My personal opinion but I feel like Paula needs a break from the show. These episodes aired months apart and set up a time jump. When you watch them so close together I feel like the differences don't kick in that well. Don't hate
She’s seems to have a issue with every episode and goes on a massive rant about her hatred for moffat .... Yeah just wait till you get to season 11 onwards cause the writing is just........yeah best not talk about it.
@@cameronwright7165 I hope you’re right, but I have a feeling she might enjoy it more than Moffat’s era. I say this because they come across as very woke and Chibnall as show runner reflects that.
@@scifijunky1979 All of the modern show has things you'd call "woke" if that's the kind of thing you have a problem with. In fact there's lots of people who feel the current era is less woke than either of the previous two . I don't like the Chibnall era either, but I'd rather cite my actual issues, rather than turning it into a weird culture war for no reason.
@@scifijunky1979 yeah have the same feeling too m8 hahahahaha. Like no offence to people who like chibs shit but if you only like Chibnalls writing and hate the previous two show runners do you really like doctor who or do you just like a politics and agenda the BBC rams down you throat. Mini rant hahaha. Ike Politics is fine in dr who because that’s what makes it work but you have to appeal to both sides. The doctor is a hippy basically that hates guns but has also took part in the biggest war ever and when you make him/ her only stick to one side he’s now very flat as charter and your just shoving your own personal beliefs as a show runner down your throat.
Paula’s just angry at Moffat for toying with her emotions. But I sincerely feel she’s jumping to conclusion expecting Moffat’s storytelling conforming to her narrative of storytelling. I agree with some of comments here: we all had time to breathe when this aired, and binge watching this show dilutes the experience. The Doctor was still mourning the loss of Amy & Rory for about a decade or more in Victorian England. So he didn’t just fancy someone new just because they took an interest in him. In time fate led him to a new chapter in his life filled synchronicities which is quite provocative for the Doctor not to investigate.
@@iz723 if you like the show in its current phase then more power to you but that doesn't mean other people can't. You should just enjoy the show if you like it and not be bothered by others who don't at this point
@@iz723Even if its to a small extent its a bad mentality imo to expect that others should reject how they feel about something just because their opinion isn't the same as yours
I wish youd taken a break. Seeing Paula this hurt is hard. I want her to enjoy the Clara storyline without grieving the Ponds. Clara is one of the best of Moffatt and i hope the hurt doesnt stop her seeing the brilliance of it.
Oh stfu, its a highly controversial arc, tons of people hate Clara, its fuck all to do with the ponds.....its just that lots of people think moffats "brilliance".....is shit
@@zakjaggs9761 tons of people are morons. more people think she is brilliant anyway. why listen to a small group of people who dont understand writing? clara has amazing writing to anyone who even appreciates the art of writing. maybe u dont thats ok.
I really don't like Clara, and a lot of people dislike her, too. I still think they should've probably had a bit of a breather, as we all did irl, because that's how it was intended to be viewed. It's the problem with binge watching series which weren't designed to be binged.
@@dutchman8887 Clara didn't become a real feeling, fleshed out character for a long time. She doesn't speak like an actual human being, and she really suffers from being essentially a 'mystery' for a lot of her time on the show. She can be really obnoxious. It's a 'Moffat woman' problem, unfortunately, and just because some people can point out these flaws in the writing doesn't mean that they can't appreciate the good parts, too. True appreciation includes critical readings and thought, not unbridled and unnuanced praise.
I feel like the Doctor kissing Claras forehead was sad. I see it as a parent who lost their child and then latches on to a friend or family members child to fill the void. He has the Want to take care of someone, but no one to watch over. Thats why this scene is especially sad to me. I understand your point of view too, but I've always seen the Doctor as a Grandfather figure.
Basically Clara's backstory in this episode is that she is an adventurous, working class citizen full of wonder. Her job as a barmaid is not exactly a great job, so she has what seems to be a seasonal job as a governess. Since she would be rejected for the position with her real social position she pretends to be of a higher social level. Also, not only does the Doctor not really care about marriage, they got married in a dead timeline that took place outside the universe.
A problem with compressed time viewing these stories is, when this originally happened, we had months of knowing when (but not how) Amy and Rory were going, and months after they left waiting to see the new companion that we knew about before the season started. Not knowing and seeing these stories within a week or so of each other would make everything feel rushed.
Victorian society was very based on reputation and Clara's background, friends, hobbies, accent etc. would put the opportunity of working for a posh household for good money out of her reach and would be considered a disgrace for the family hence damaging their reputation also and hence the need for a double life from Clara. Victorian values at their finest. GCSE Jekyll and Hyde context really coming in clutch here for once lol.
Theory: There's no middle ground between "Sadboy" and "Cocky Madlad" because he's never not sad. Like Vincent, there are moments where things are better, and those moments are special, but they can't wipe away a millennia of losing dear friends (and feeling responsible for so many of them). I don't think the Doctor ever gets over it. Sometimes he forgets, sometimes he suppresses, but I think a case can be made that the doctor covers up his pain with companions.
Steven Moffat manipulated the timeline so much that he purposely planned "The Angels Take Manhattan" to piss off Paula eight and a half years in the future.
I feel like Paula ist still way too angry and too little time has passed for her compared to how the show originally aired. Aside from that, there is a lot that can't be explained about the relationship between Clara and the doctor as that would spoil the whole thing. River and the doctor have a complicated relationship. Their timelines are all over the place and with huge time gaps inbetween meetings. Both of them have been married many times even while being married to each other. Saying their relationship is an open one is simplifying it a bit, but that kiss or affection towards Clara would not be a big deal for either of them, besides.....there will be an explanation later on.
The Doctor married Marilyn Monroe before River. 🤣 From Blink: "Look, sorry, I've got a bit of a complex life. Things don't always happen to me in quite the right order. Gets a bit confusing at times, especially at weddings. I'm rubbish at weddings, especially my own."
Maybe the Doctor doesn't bring up marriage because he might be polyamorous. i mean, he's an alien, maybe monogamy doesn't mean much to him. And River was raised in the 52nd century ,a hundred years after Jack! So maybe monogamy isn't important im 3000 years either. I mean look how different social norms 3000 years before us!
When this episode was on tv, months after the last episode with Amy and Rory. People did have time to sinking in. And the "middle ground" doctor was way more common in the classic series.
I think their biggest issue is, they don't take things at context. Show wasn't designed to be binge watched, and there was big news in papers and stuff when it was announced we were getting new doctor or companions, with interviews and all that going on.
It does help to remember or know that there were two months in real time that passed between Angels Take Manhattan and The Snowmen. Then there is another 3 month gap between this episode and the next one. Snowmen is actually the Christmas special. So people's reactions really run the range they do because of this. A lot of people had weeks/months to to sit with Amy and Rory leaving and how they left before this happen and then had another few months to process this episode. It's always interesting and fun to see reactions from those that are either bingeing the show or watching it daily or weekly without the breaks. Seeing what lands differently, what gets taken more positively or more negatively compared with those that watched it as it was airing. Certain things do hit differently in either direction. I think if I went right from Angels Take Manhattan and straight into this I don't think my initial reaction would have been as positive as it was. Especially when it came to Clara.
I believe the episodes were written with the gaps in mind. Also, it's (more than) implied that much time has passed between "Manhattan" and "Snowmen" while the Doctor retired from traveling: it's not like the Doctor forgot about his losses in a flash--something that the Classic era was sometimes accused of ("RIP Adric--ooh, where to next?").
As Oswin Oswald said, she's one of the smartest humans. This is true of this Victorian Clara as well. That's why she easily passed the umbrella test. The Doctor and Clara is different from other companions because the past companions all look up to The Doctor as an amazing person. The Doctor and Clara look at each other as like-minded, highly intelligent peers. Yes, Clara kissed The Doctor, but notice she did not flush or become fluttery. To her, it was just a test to determine if The Doctor liked her
I agree. She doesn't fit in the Victorian Era or even tje 21st century, she's very much like the Doctor himself, smart, carefree and kind. Also, this is discussed in the future but, as Professor River Song would put it, "Spoilers!"
Casual reminder again, we *had* time. It doesn't necessarily translate well to binge watch. Also, huge time jump in the episode as others have mentioned.
“I like making soufflés”. “Soufflés?” OK, she’s in. Welcome aboard. Actually, neither of Clara’s accents in this is her real accent. In a continuing trend, Jenna begins the recent ‘Attack of the Northerners’. She’s fantastic again with a French accent in The Serpent which has just concluded in the U.K. The romantic attraction issue does get addressed...eventually. And top marks for Murray Gold’s score in this!
Hopefully Paula will realise Moffat is setting something up after she sees The Bells of Saint John. Not to be rude in any way, but it's not as simple as she seems to think it is.
Precisely. When you think Moffat is doing whatever the fuck he wants and doesn't give a shit about Timelines, take a *deep breath*, relax, trust Moffat and take a note of every little thing... it will pay off.
@@zakjaggs9761 it does apart from Series 6. SPOILER ALERT PLEASE DO NOT READ IF UNVERSED! Series 5: The Pandorica Arc, set up in series 5, concludes nicely in The Big Bang without having a deus ex machina resolution. Also comes back in a later episode which shall not be spoilt, I agree that episode should have been 3 episodes but eh.. it works. Series 8: Missy. Pays off with probably the best Master+Cybermen reveal and again resolves itself without a deus ex machina. Series 9: pays off in Hell Bent, now you don't have to like it, but the Hybrid arc and the Doctor's memories makes perfect sense, it had been continually foreshadowed in Flatline, Mummy on the Orient Express, Dark Water, Last Christmas, The Magician's Apprentice, Under the Lake, The Girl Who Lived, and the Zygon Inversion. I like that Gallifrey is in the background because that's what Gallifrey does best and has been doing from the Classic Era. Series 10: Perhaps the best Master story ever, one of the best Cybermen Stories (don't blame me, I just love the Mondasian Cybermen), and one of the best explorations of the Doctor's Character and Motivation, and his long, long life. Series 7 I didn't mention because people hate Name of the Doctor. Well, as it happens, it was immediately retconned in Time of the Doctor because the Doctor Changed the Future. Thus, The Doctor's grave wouldn't be on Trenzalore, thus The Great Intelligence wouldn't be able to go through his timeline and Clara wouldn't be able to muck up the Canon. See? Fixed it. I personally prefer Moffat to RTD (God, RTD had an obsession with two words: Bad Wolf and Professor Yana and Harold Saxon and deus ex machinas: Bad Wolf, Last of the Timelords, Journey's End), but opinions, they're weird and wonderful.
Because river and the doctor aren't linear, they have an open relationship, free to do whatever they like with anyone else. Their marriage is an acknowledgement of mutual attraction and attachment. But yeah I don't properly vibe with clara/the doctor, they work much better as best friends in my opinion
Moffat does what he wants, becasie he is the best. Team Moffat and team team 11 and 12. Also, imagine thinking Moffat doesn't care about the time line, just wait until you catch up to everyone else lol.
@@JohnnyLCob its the best at exploring the families and connecting to spin offs but other than that the moffat era especially with capaldi is much much better written television. i guess if you like fan service type things without much thought behind them like series 4 ending then rtd is more exciting in that sense but for creating depth and things to think about and stories and character development and themes the moffat era again especially with capaldi is much better.
I think Moffat would love the fact he gave Paula such an aggressive reaction! He is a troll, after all! I've been waiting to speak about this one since "Asylum..." One of the big elements you don't get in your reactions compared to the original BBC broadcasts is that, like how we all knew Amy and Rory were leaving the show in the mid-series finale, we also knew Jenna Coleman was cast as the new companion. So when they initially showed up in "Asylum," and consequently died, it was really confusing. Then when she showed up again here, there was a real sense of "what the hell is going on?" In many ways, Moffat appeared to be trying to play with the problem of having actors coming and going being announced by the BBC. It meant he could never deliver any chock as to if someone was leaving or if a character would unexpectedly become a companion. Many fans often lament that it would be impossible to ever have a shock regeneration, as casting would always be announced too far in advance. What Moffat did here with the changing of the companions, I believe, was down to an attempt to be creative with the limitations imposed on him by the reality of casting actors. Obviously whether you like what he does is a matter of opinion, but I think the reasons behind his thinking often get lost when watching for the first time, beyond the initial broadcast. Just adding a little context to consider when you think about why he does things in a certain way. Also, regarding River, don't forget - technically she's already dead. Or from the perspective of being in the 19th century, she's not even been born yet. The technicalities of monogamy become quite complicated when you don't share a linear timeline with your lover!
Sure, The Doctor is married. And yeah, River could show up at any time. But also, he's technically been widowed since season 4, which in The Doctor's timeline was several hundred years ago.
The question about why Clara isn't just honest about who she is could only come from someone unfamiliar with the class system in the UK (which is still around to a large extent but was _much_ worse in Victorian England) - barmaid Clara with the working class accent could _never_ work as a governess for a wealthy family, that freedom just wasn't available to her.
I don't believe Moffat just does whatever he wants. I think what he does is write very long story arcs and then feeds them to you bit by bit. As a result, individual episodes don't always make sense while you're watching them, but after you view the entirety of his run and look back, you realize that what he wrote usually _does_ make sense. It's very much like the episode "Blink," how Sally didn't understand that she was the one who gave the Doctor all the info about her and the angels until she was right there doing it.
It's weird, I thought that by binge watching it like this, that would seem more apparent, but obviously different people take different things from media
However one's reaction to a new companion are, I always like to not judge them before we had at least a few episodes with them because then we can start to know them better. It's like whenever you meet a new person, the first impression might not always be how they really are. I may be biased about Clara, however because she and Eleven brought me into the Whoniverse with this episode. I watched small CZcams clips of the scene when Clara and the Doctor run from the Ice Governess into the TARDIS and I immediately knew I was gonna love this show! So I bought Series 7 and watched from this episode on not even bothering to watch the stories with the Ponds because I already knew that they had started earlier and I didn't want to start in the middle of their journey so to speak.
Good Reaction, The Doctor and River clearly have an open marriage seeing River is both Dead and Alive, also in the Christmas Carol episode The Doctor got engaged to Marylin Monroe(maybe even Married), for me I love very moment of this episode, get Chills every time the Clara theme comes on, also this episode aired nearly 3 months after Angels Take Manhattan and most likely was years after Amy and Rory for the Doctor, and years since he last seen River
So glad you kept at it. I have to say that next episode holds a special place in my heart: the very first episode of Doctor Who I ever sat down to watch. Yes, Matt Smith is my Doctor (though I love all the modern Doctors plus McGann - lost BBC America around the time the current one started but I saw two of _their_ episodes on the app).
The whole kissing shit is a bit much but at the same time.....I don’t give a fuck😂 cause it doesn’t ruin the show for me at all because it’s such a small thing to get annoyed at for me so I’m jut like I’m just gonna enjoy the episode. That’s my opinion on that scene anyway.
Ikr... also they didn't seem to have a problem when David Tennant went round kissing every girl he met, Rose, Astrid frok the Titanic Episode, Martha has a crush on him..and a few others which I shall not mention here for spoiler reasons. Also River doesn't have a problem with it so who cares... I think Paula's still recovering from.the shock that Moffat gave her in the last episode and is still grabbing at anything she can to hate him.
@@atharvadeshpande6907 yeah I know, like just watch it and don’t get so deep with it and enjoy it for what it is and don’t complain every 2 seconds about moffat cause they are petty
I don't know if you've seen it but there's a little minisode set before this on "Demon's Run" where Vastra revives Strax after his death, which is why he's still alive in this episode.
when this was first shown there had been a three month gap, which you didn't get as you are doing at least one a week so there had been time to recover from the end of amy and rory
"Permission to express opposition to your current apathy?" "Permission granted." "Sir! I am opposed to your current apathy!" It's hard to pick Strax's best line, he gets so many great ones!
I believe Katrina did a bad job of being a whovian here. The criticism of not being given time to adjust is illogical... The original airing had that. It was not meant to be binge-watched 10 yrs later. If u wanted to have time to adjust.... Should have taken a 3 month gap before this. Everybody is entitled to their opinion but not on wrong facts.
This episode is from the year of the 50th Anniversary. Each episode has Easter Eggs and references to classic Episodes of Doctor Who. For example, The 2nd Doctor (1967) confronts the Great Intelligence in the London Underground, set in the 1970s. It is in this Matt Smith episode where The Great Intelligence first learns the map of the London Underground as some sort of importance. - I hope Katrina does some research to find out all the 50th anniversary Easter eggs in this season.
Clara is one of my favorite companions. To me she’s very underrated and needlessly hated on. She’s a mystery to him, and constantly popping up in his life. Which is what is peaking his interest. I just think that they their relationship is friends, while being a bit flirtatious. But they never actually get together. They do care for eachother tho. And as far as the time built, there was 5 months between Amy and Rory’s departure, and we knew that was coming so we were prepared, and we also knew that Clara was the next companion AND that this was Matt Smiths farewell season. Also, him kissing her on the forehead is a staple of Matt’s version of the character that’s how he shows compassion. He wasn’t being cocky and he wasn’t being an asshole… he hadn’t had anyone in his life that made him excited to show the universe! I don’t know… we’re all entitled to our opinions but this feels like more of an emotional response to not having time to breathe between Amy and Rory and Clara. I don’t think you’d have the same reaction if you had time between and took the time to process your emotions.
I can't wait to see Paula react to 12 and Clara. Very interesting whether she'll clue into the fact that Moffat, Capaldi, and Coleman all think of them as somewhat romantic or if she'll go with the father/daughter dynamic a lot of people hold onto. /g
i love that Paula always says stuff that’s later in the show. like she saw the new Tardis and said “i don’t like it” almost exactly like Tennant in the 50th. lololol and Katrina you’re really good at not giving stuff away. also, im a governess (elementary school teacher), and a barmaid (bartender)… i didn’t notice Clara and I had that in common until you said that. 😂😂😂
I can imagine it being a bit jarring for anyone going straight through all the episodes, but for those of us who saw them on the release dates (at least in the UK) there was a 3 month gap between episodes 5 and 6, and then another 3 months before episode 7.
For me, the one big missed opportunity in the Moffet era is the nonstandard companions. Through out modern Who, the companions are mainly middle or working class girls from the 2000's (to serve as audience stand-ins) .Throughout all of time and space, the most interesting companions you could find all live within 100 miles and 10 years of each other? We get a more interesting tease with the Riddell/Neferetiti combo (a big game hunter and an Egyptian Queen) or the Paternoster Gang (A Silurian, a Sontaran, and only a single vanilla human). And while I feel for you, having just "lost" the Ponds, at least they got a relatively happy ending. I mean it not like they were smashed into a prehistoric planet earth because they couldn't solve a math problem. Also, the Great Intelligence is not only a return of a Classic Dr Who villain. It's also an unofficial cross over with Lovecraft. In classic Who, the Great Intelligence is also known as Yog Sothoth, one of the Great Old Ones
I think the reactor experience is a bit different since you go in spoiler free when companions coming and going is often front page news up to a year in advance. Plus with the longer gaps between stories. All in all the reactor experience is more intense, which can be great, but can also make the negative things as intense too.
This is perhaps an instance where not having a temporal gap between episodes can change the experience. Also Moffat is seeding for a big timey-wimey pay off and as you will see this particular relationship will have many different layers of complexity to it.
Paula does go on a bit lately. She does not understand stuff. But she chats so much over everything she misses loads of stuff. I also find it funny how people get so angry over something that is fictional.
Another glorious rant, I love it! 😍 I agree with most that if you really are feeling angry and judgemental about the pacing, bingewatching for a reaction channel is not a great idea; a couple weeks off would do some good. With that said, I kind of faded out of the show once Clara arrived, and I saw the episodes "as Moffat intended" live, so I sure don't mind this reaction haha. What can I say, she's just not Amy and Rory.
I only like the romantic arc of Clara here as establishment for later relationships. The Doctor is just infatuated because she's something _new,_ a new mystery after he was feeling extremely jaded about traveling the universe. He's got that exciting almost obsessive crush that all young teenagers get where he's not really thinking. As for this woman who he just met, but hadn't. I'm betting he does feel a weird connection to her because he had interacted with her already. I dunno. I really like where Clara went later in the show. (Also, I suspect, but I can't be sure and don't want to presume, but given Paula's critical/analytical eye when watching stuff, that she's not a fan of the more recent Star Trek series either. Maybe. But that's also because I'm critical/analytical and see *many* problems with the writing in those shows)
Not too sure how important this will be to you, but you might be interested to know the raw voice of the Great Intelligence, once the influence of Dr Simeon was removed, was provided by the great Ian McKellan, famed for his roles as Gandalf, Magneto, as well as 128 other roles over a stellar 40 year career.
I watched doctor who on Netflix they didn’t have any Christmas specials on there so I didn’t even know this episode existed until shomi had everything I miss shomi lol but yeah
"Oh, my word . . oh dear! Hmm. Well . um . . perhaps I could play you a little something to soothe your nerves? (Jingle Bells) You don't? . . Well . . if that's your attitude!" (sulks) "I've had a better response to my music from an obstreperous octopoid ocelot (sulks more) . . AND it had toothache!"
Richard E. Grant, who played Dr. Simeon, has actually played the Doctor as well. It was the animated adventure 'Scream Of The Shakla'. It was released online about a year before the new version of Who debuted. There are several people from New Who who worked on it, including one very surprising voice. Grant also co-starred in 'Withnail & I' with Paul McGann, who also played the Doctor. And David Tennant guest-starred in his TV series, 'Posh Nosh'. The Great Intelligence appeared in classic Who stories, 'The Abominable Snowmen' and 'The Web Of Fear'. The second story involved the GI's minions, the Yeti, invading London in 1967 through the Underground train system. The implication is the Doctor accidentally gave the GI the idea!
Richard E Grant played the (briefly) official new (ninth) Doctor, until the tv return was announced. But don't forget "The Curse of Fatal Death". Grant played an unofficial (tenth) Doctor, after Rowan Atkinson and before Jim Broadbent. You could say that he has played more versions of the Doctor than anybody else.
I was one who was all in with Clara from the beginning, but Paula reminds me of a friend of mine who never warmed up to Clara because she resented how sparkly she and the Doctor were lol, because of River. I personally never felt 11/River as a couple, and I actually reacted a bit to River at first the way Paula did to Clara here, because we find out she's the Doctor's wife in series 4 and I was still all about him and Rose. I did of course warm up to River because she's a great character, and I very much ship Twelver. I loved how she said "the chemistry they supposedly have" about 11/Clara lol! They definitely had it or she wouldn't have been so bothered! I do hope Paula managed to develop the affection for Clara my friend never did! Especially when she finds out there very much was a reason why Clara attached herself to the Doctor so quickly. Watching more vids now, hoping for the best...
I love the Doctor in this episode. He is tired and old and excentric and brilliant. That´s how the Doctor should be in my opinion. I wish they kept him like this for longer!
Wait a minute! Paula said the phrase "I don't like it!" about the new interior of the Tardis without having seen where it came from or any references? If so, that would be fantastic!
I really love this episode and how it makes me feel. I laugh, I question, I laugh, I'm excited, I'm afraid, I cry, then I'm happy again. All in one episode.
British class system, you didnt step beyond your station and a gentleman would never hire a barmaid to educate his children... Just isnt done, old bean. Also, River is his second wife and it has been decades since he's seen her and technically she'd dead, so he's a widower - really Paula, should he carry a torch forever? The average lifespan for British women in the Victorian age was 42 so Clara's already past middle age, no wonder she's so forward, technically she is just past marriageable age so other than the Doctor, her Victorian prospects are not good.
I can understand Paula's feelings toward everything, I had similar feelings when I first watch through these seasons (if a little bit less angry in comparison). But in the show/Moffat's defense, The Doctor doesn't really show Clara the same kind or same level of affection really, he just has a deep appreciation for good, clever human beings (of which Clara is definitely one of them). That's the reason for the affection he shows, especially in a crisis. He gradually warms to her and that affection/friendship grows more and more as time goes on. I don't agree that he should be cold or distant toward her for a while anymore than he actually was, once again especially in a dire situation where lives are at risk.
A LOT of Classic Who fans did NOT like the introduction of "romantic tension" into the Doctor / Companion relationships. That said, the day a woman flirts with me as well & fun as Clara did with the Doctor, would be a VERY good day! ;)
I love how her reaction is just the same as all of us during the first time watching these episodes. But looking back at them, I enjoy them all so much more.
Ooh so hard not to go into a spoiler-y on where Clara’s story goes and how much it sets her early stuff in a different context; I’ll just say that a lot of the issues you’re having are the seeds of character stuff that Moffat and the rest of the writing team explore beautifully over the rest of her time on the show. 7b was so much better on the rewatch for me
This was when I finally started to like Eleven. I definitely find dark and broody Eleven more appealing, I can finally see the old man hiding in the young man's body. I also much prefer his second TARDIS interior, his original Dr. Suesian interior just had too much going on for me and I found it ugly.
the old man in the young mans body was very apparent early on. look at the big bang when he is practically out of breath at the end. his wisdom is very clear as well. 11 had always portrayed the old man side much better than anyone else even the actual old men playing the role! also he was very dark very early on. beast below ending for example and eps like the god complex.
I know Moffat was setting up the Impossible Girl, but I really liked Victorian Clara.
I always thought I'd like victoriana or something companion. Then we can have not just the usual marvel, but also marvel at modern day stuff, and different way of thinking
I hope they've got that far cos that is a bit spoilery
@@brynmilford1343 a bit, but doctor did say this episode "she's impossible" so very minor spoiler I'd say
Possible spoilers:
Wasn't it said that Moffat wanted Victorian Clara to be the companion? I thought I read that was the plan but the BBC wanted her to be current day so people could relate to her.
She was the best Clara!
Loved the "I don't like it" new TARDIS throw-back comment... hopefully one day Paula will get to see where that line originated!
@John A Yup, once Paula starts on Classic Who. Also the first use of the sonic screwdriver with that same Doctor.
"The Doctor is married!"
Yes, several times. Including Marilyn Monroe
Don't forget River is dead.
...she's also not been born yet.
You gotta admit, its a confusing, yet genius story ark
@@kryten1016 I heard an interview with Moffat once where he said if he heard a review describing a show as either non-linear, gimmicky or a bit up itself, either he wrote it or its a show he'd want to watch.
@@kryten1016 Is it genius though? It seems like he made it up as he went along to me. A good example of this kind of non-linear character development is in a show like "Dark".
They also got married in an alternate timeline which occurred outside of the universe, so they never actually made such a horrible mistake.
Way I see it, he married river yes, but they are time travelers so either, it's fine, or it's wrong for him to flirt with Clara, and same with river, since same logic applies and he almost certainly had a wife previously.
Katrina, you really needed to tell Paula the gap between Amy & Rory's departure and this Christmas episode. Binge watching it without context is giving Paula an erroneous reason to critique.
She did mention at some point that the last episode was a mid-season finale, and the current episode was a Christmas episode. But otherwise, I do find that Katrina hasn't been very good at explaining things that Paula finds problematic, including the Doctor's marriage not being like a regular marriage (how can it be, with two time travelers?)
Katrina _did_ tell her and Paula even nodded and said something like "Makes sense". The problem is, knowing something isn't the same as feeling it i.e. having that bit of knowledge doesn't change the fact that Paula _feels_ like it's only been a week since Amy and Rory "died" (because for her it has).
It's a weird one IMO. On one hand, she should absolutely feel what she feels (that's kind of the whole point of reactions after all) but on the other, it's hard to shake the impression that her feelings are misguided (note: not just "different to mine" :) because they're based on viewing the episode without that context of extra "adjustment time". _That_ said, i've watched a bunch of reactors to "The Snowmen", all of whom watched it a week (maybe less) after "The Angels Take..." and literally everyone else i've seen has seemed to really enjoy it (including Victorian Clara). So maybe Paula would feel the same regardless of the time skip ? Maybe Moffat just _really_ isn't her cup of tea in other words.
@@anonymes2884 I clearly missed the moment when Katrina told her then. Context is everything isn’t it! Thanks for the thorough reply.
It should speak volumes that I often forget when recalling the different Series for this show, that this episode and The Bells of Saint John _AREN'T_ the start of Series 7. Because that's where Clara was fully introduced, and there was so much fanfare sending off Eleven on the way to Series 8, with I believe multiple specials, the first half of Series 7 sticks in my mind as some kind of weird intermission or Series 6 post-series.
Because I was there when we waited for these episodes, and especially with the time gap, it really felt like this was where the 7th Series really kicked off. So the fact that it felt that way at the time means it felt very different watching it then on that time scale, than it does just watching the episodes a week or even days or hours apart. I can definitely see how that would come off a bit weird to someone and throw them off.
@@anonymes2884 with TV, especially Doctor Who, and especially MOFFAT Doctor Who, a lot of the writing is engineered for the current zeitgeist of the fandom at the time, based on what they do and don't know, and that's very much lost when you're doing reactions years after the fact
It's conflicting because as a fan of this era when it was airing, it felt like it was being made specifically for people like me at the time because it literally was, but at the same time it's disappointing that people watching it years later can't quite get as much out of it because they don't have the necessary cultural context that they didn't know was necessary
Romantic interaction...
Not every time that he is friendly to a female, does it equate to romance.
Plus, when he kissed her on the forehead, that is so far removed from anything romantic. She's dying... It's the same kind of thing that you would do to a kid when they get hurt. It is pretty much a "you'll be okay."
He also kissed Strax on the head in this very episode. He's just very physical in his affections.
(just ignoring the context of her making out with him moments before, of course. Can't have reason enter into your reactive defense after all)
The Doctor has been married a number of times. He clearly does not view marriage the same way a normal human does. Neither does River. You know who would not have cared about the Doctor kissing Clara? River. If anything she may have been jealous of the Doctor.
You must remember this
A kiss is just a kiss, a sigh is just a sigh.
The fundamental things apply
As time goes by.
@@mmattson8947 "As timey-wimey goes by me" :)
Supposedly The Doctor has been married 3 times, to the unseen woman who had his child(ren) and is Susan's grandmom, Marilyn Monroe (mentioned Matt Smith's 1st Christmas story), and River.
@@scottboswell6406 and Queen Elizabeth I. 10 married her post Donna/pre regeneration just before his visit with the Ood.
@@dcaslick Shhh!! Spoiler! Which is why I didn't mention it.
My personal opinion but I feel like Paula needs a break from the show. These episodes aired months apart and set up a time jump. When you watch them so close together I feel like the differences don't kick in that well. Don't hate
I think you make a valid point
She’s seems to have a issue with every episode and goes on a massive rant about her hatred for moffat .... Yeah just wait till you get to season 11 onwards cause the writing is just........yeah best not talk about it.
@@cameronwright7165 I hope you’re right, but I have a feeling she might enjoy it more than Moffat’s era. I say this because they come across as very woke and Chibnall as show runner reflects that.
@@scifijunky1979 All of the modern show has things you'd call "woke" if that's the kind of thing you have a problem with. In fact there's lots of people who feel the current era is less woke than either of the previous two . I don't like the Chibnall era either, but I'd rather cite my actual issues, rather than turning it into a weird culture war for no reason.
@@scifijunky1979 yeah have the same feeling too m8 hahahahaha. Like no offence to people who like chibs shit but if you only like Chibnalls writing and hate the previous two show runners do you really like doctor who or do you just like a politics and agenda the BBC rams down you throat. Mini rant hahaha.
Ike Politics is fine in dr who because that’s what makes it work but you have to appeal to both sides. The doctor is a hippy basically that hates guns but has also took part in the biggest war ever and when you make him/ her only stick to one side he’s now very flat as charter and your just shoving your own personal beliefs as a show runner down your throat.
Paula’s just angry at Moffat for toying with her emotions. But I sincerely feel she’s jumping to conclusion expecting Moffat’s storytelling conforming to her narrative of storytelling. I agree with some of comments here: we all had time to breathe when this aired, and binge watching this show dilutes the experience.
The Doctor was still mourning the loss of Amy & Rory for about a decade or more in Victorian England. So he didn’t just fancy someone new just because they took an interest in him. In time fate led him to a new chapter in his life filled synchronicities which is quite provocative for the Doctor not to investigate.
Agreed. She's still not over it yet. She'd needs to chill tf out and just enjoy the show.
@@iz723 if you like the show in its current phase then more power to you but that doesn't mean other people can't. You should just enjoy the show if you like it and not be bothered by others who don't at this point
@@sunday1409 My feelings on this are not that strong. Just what I feel slightly.
@@iz723Even if its to a small extent its a bad mentality imo to expect that others should reject how they feel about something just because their opinion isn't the same as yours
She's was never able to suspend disbelief like she does in Star Trek.
I wish youd taken a break. Seeing Paula this hurt is hard. I want her to enjoy the Clara storyline without grieving the Ponds. Clara is one of the best of Moffatt and i hope the hurt doesnt stop her seeing the brilliance of it.
Oh stfu, its a highly controversial arc, tons of people hate Clara, its fuck all to do with the ponds.....its just that lots of people think moffats "brilliance".....is shit
@@zakjaggs9761 tons of people are morons. more people think she is brilliant anyway. why listen to a small group of people who dont understand writing? clara has amazing writing to anyone who even appreciates the art of writing. maybe u dont thats ok.
I really don't like Clara, and a lot of people dislike her, too. I still think they should've probably had a bit of a breather, as we all did irl, because that's how it was intended to be viewed. It's the problem with binge watching series which weren't designed to be binged.
@@dutchman8887 small group.....about 40% of the fandom.
@@dutchman8887 Clara didn't become a real feeling, fleshed out character for a long time. She doesn't speak like an actual human being, and she really suffers from being essentially a 'mystery' for a lot of her time on the show. She can be really obnoxious. It's a 'Moffat woman' problem, unfortunately, and just because some people can point out these flaws in the writing doesn't mean that they can't appreciate the good parts, too. True appreciation includes critical readings and thought, not unbridled and unnuanced praise.
I feel like the Doctor kissing Claras forehead was sad. I see it as a parent who lost their child and then latches on to a friend or family members child to fill the void. He has the Want to take care of someone, but no one to watch over. Thats why this scene is especially sad to me. I understand your point of view too, but I've always seen the Doctor as a Grandfather figure.
It all makes sense ... eventually :)
Basically Clara's backstory in this episode is that she is an adventurous, working class citizen full of wonder. Her job as a barmaid is not exactly a great job, so she has what seems to be a seasonal job as a governess. Since she would be rejected for the position with her real social position she pretends to be of a higher social level.
Also, not only does the Doctor not really care about marriage, they got married in a dead timeline that took place outside the universe.
I do give Moffat credit. Moffat companions leave at the end of the season so switching it up was genius to me
"Moffat always brings back companions and doesnt let them die in peace." "Moffat shouldnt kill off characters." He cant win.
A problem with compressed time viewing these stories is, when this originally happened, we had months of knowing when (but not how) Amy and Rory were going, and months after they left waiting to see the new companion that we knew about before the season started. Not knowing and seeing these stories within a week or so of each other would make everything feel rushed.
Yeah, this. It's like the difference between weekly episodes and binge viewing only moreso.
River and the Doctor definitely have an open relationship
Victorian society was very based on reputation and Clara's background, friends, hobbies, accent etc. would put the opportunity of working for a posh household for good money out of her reach and would be considered a disgrace for the family hence damaging their reputation also and hence the need for a double life from Clara. Victorian values at their finest. GCSE Jekyll and Hyde context really coming in clutch here for once lol.
Theory: There's no middle ground between "Sadboy" and "Cocky Madlad" because he's never not sad. Like Vincent, there are moments where things are better, and those moments are special, but they can't wipe away a millennia of losing dear friends (and feeling responsible for so many of them).
I don't think the Doctor ever gets over it. Sometimes he forgets, sometimes he suppresses, but I think a case can be made that the doctor covers up his pain with companions.
very true. 11 is very much a mask wearer.
Steven Moffat manipulated the timeline so much that he purposely planned "The Angels Take Manhattan" to piss off Paula eight and a half years in the future.
I feel like Paula ist still way too angry and too little time has passed for her compared to how the show originally aired.
Aside from that, there is a lot that can't be explained about the relationship between Clara and the doctor as that would spoil
the whole thing.
River and the doctor have a complicated relationship. Their timelines are all over the place and with huge time gaps inbetween meetings. Both of them
have been married many times even while being married to each other. Saying their relationship is an open one is simplifying it a bit, but that kiss or affection
towards Clara would not be a big deal for either of them, besides.....there will be an explanation later on.
The Doctor married Marilyn Monroe before River. 🤣 From Blink: "Look, sorry, I've got a bit of a complex life. Things don't always happen to me in quite the right order. Gets a bit confusing at times, especially at weddings. I'm rubbish at weddings, especially my own."
Maybe the Doctor doesn't bring up marriage because he might be polyamorous. i mean, he's an alien, maybe monogamy doesn't mean much to him. And River was raised in the 52nd century ,a hundred years after Jack! So maybe monogamy isn't important im 3000 years either. I mean look how different social norms 3000 years before us!
When this episode was on tv, months after the last episode with Amy and Rory. People did have time to sinking in. And the "middle ground" doctor was way more common in the classic series.
I think their biggest issue is, they don't take things at context. Show wasn't designed to be binge watched, and there was big news in papers and stuff when it was announced we were getting new doctor or companions, with interviews and all that going on.
It's hard to replace Amy and Rory but Clara did a great job of filling that void
It does help to remember or know that there were two months in real time that passed between Angels Take Manhattan and The Snowmen. Then there is another 3 month gap between this episode and the next one. Snowmen is actually the Christmas special.
So people's reactions really run the range they do because of this. A lot of people had weeks/months to to sit with Amy and Rory leaving and how they left before this happen and then had another few months to process this episode.
It's always interesting and fun to see reactions from those that are either bingeing the show or watching it daily or weekly without the breaks. Seeing what lands differently, what gets taken more positively or more negatively compared with those that watched it as it was airing. Certain things do hit differently in either direction.
I think if I went right from Angels Take Manhattan and straight into this I don't think my initial reaction would have been as positive as it was. Especially when it came to Clara.
I believe the episodes were written with the gaps in mind. Also, it's (more than) implied that much time has passed between "Manhattan" and "Snowmen" while the Doctor retired from traveling: it's not like the Doctor forgot about his losses in a flash--something that the Classic era was sometimes accused of ("RIP Adric--ooh, where to next?").
As Oswin Oswald said, she's one of the smartest humans. This is true of this Victorian Clara as well. That's why she easily passed the umbrella test. The Doctor and Clara is different from other companions because the past companions all look up to The Doctor as an amazing person. The Doctor and Clara look at each other as like-minded, highly intelligent peers. Yes, Clara kissed The Doctor, but notice she did not flush or become fluttery. To her, it was just a test to determine if The Doctor liked her
I agree. She doesn't fit in the Victorian Era or even tje 21st century, she's very much like the Doctor himself, smart, carefree and kind. Also, this is discussed in the future but, as Professor River Song would put it, "Spoilers!"
He has been up in a cloud for hundreds of lonely years isolated, give him a break over his kiss 😂
Forgot to say in the last episode, but so proud of you Katrina for your sobriety 😊
Oh happy day, not a long delay. So happy you are still sticking with it Paula.
Casual reminder again, we *had* time. It doesn't necessarily translate well to binge watch. Also, huge time jump in the episode as others have mentioned.
Second Doctor would sometimes give Zoe an avuncular kiss on the forehead. And 11 did so with Amy quite often.
“I like making soufflés”.
“Soufflés?”
OK, she’s in. Welcome aboard.
Actually, neither of Clara’s accents in this is her real accent. In a continuing trend, Jenna begins the recent ‘Attack of the Northerners’. She’s fantastic again with a French accent in The Serpent which has just concluded in the U.K. The romantic attraction issue does get addressed...eventually. And top marks for Murray Gold’s score in this!
I think the "Attack of the Northerners" started with Scottish Amy ;)
@@ftumschk Well I suppose in NuWho it started with Christopher Eccleston and developed from there!
@@ianpark1805 True!
I'm fairly sure everyone will be waiting with interest about Paula's reactions to the rest of this series ^_^
These mid episodes (including angels) and then end of this series are some of my favourite out of all doc who
The controversial Clara era is going to be a mess!
I'm all here for it. Until the bitter end
@@ceezyjeffezy2213 I'm already getting feeling she is going to be on the against Clara side. She's still in top 2 for me, her or amy.
Hopefully Paula will realise Moffat is setting something up after she sees The Bells of Saint John. Not to be rude in any way, but it's not as simple as she seems to think it is.
Precisely. When you think Moffat is doing whatever the fuck he wants and doesn't give a shit about Timelines, take a *deep breath*, relax, trust Moffat and take a note of every little thing... it will pay off.
@@atharvadeshpande6907 it doesn't tho
@@zakjaggs9761 it does apart from Series 6.
SPOILER ALERT PLEASE DO NOT READ IF UNVERSED!
Series 5: The Pandorica Arc, set up in series 5, concludes nicely in The Big Bang without having a deus ex machina resolution. Also comes back in a later episode which shall not be spoilt, I agree that episode should have been 3 episodes but eh.. it works. Series 8: Missy. Pays off with probably the best Master+Cybermen reveal and again resolves itself without a deus ex machina. Series 9: pays off in Hell Bent, now you don't have to like it, but the Hybrid arc and the Doctor's memories makes perfect sense, it had been continually foreshadowed in Flatline, Mummy on the Orient Express, Dark Water, Last Christmas, The Magician's Apprentice, Under the Lake, The Girl Who Lived, and the Zygon Inversion. I like that Gallifrey is in the background because that's what Gallifrey does best and has been doing from the Classic Era. Series 10: Perhaps the best Master story ever, one of the best Cybermen Stories (don't blame me, I just love the Mondasian Cybermen), and one of the best explorations of the Doctor's Character and Motivation, and his long, long life.
Series 7 I didn't mention because people hate Name of the Doctor. Well, as it happens, it was immediately retconned in Time of the Doctor because the Doctor Changed the Future. Thus, The Doctor's grave wouldn't be on Trenzalore, thus The Great Intelligence wouldn't be able to go through his timeline and Clara wouldn't be able to muck up the Canon. See? Fixed it.
I personally prefer Moffat to RTD (God, RTD had an obsession with two words: Bad Wolf and Professor Yana and Harold Saxon and deus ex machinas: Bad Wolf, Last of the Timelords, Journey's End), but opinions, they're weird and wonderful.
@@atharvadeshpande6907 no.....a conclusion is not the same as a pay off.....
@@zakjaggs9761 well, I do like the hybrid arc a lot so it kinda paid off for me.. what others are you referring to as conclusions?
Because river and the doctor aren't linear, they have an open relationship, free to do whatever they like with anyone else. Their marriage is an acknowledgement of mutual attraction and attachment. But yeah I don't properly vibe with clara/the doctor, they work much better as best friends in my opinion
"Can we have a new story, without romance?" Like, is Moffat a serious mind reader?! Oh my dear Paula, you're gonna love Capaldi!
Moffat does what he wants, becasie he is the best. Team Moffat and team team 11 and 12. Also, imagine thinking Moffat doesn't care about the time line, just wait until you catch up to everyone else lol.
RTD era is the best.
@@JohnnyLCob its the best at exploring the families and connecting to spin offs but other than that the moffat era especially with capaldi is much much better written television. i guess if you like fan service type things without much thought behind them like series 4 ending then rtd is more exciting in that sense but for creating depth and things to think about and stories and character development and themes the moffat era again especially with capaldi is much better.
@@JohnnyLCob you misspelt "2nd best"
as a david Whitaker fan you are all hilariously wrong.
I think Moffat would love the fact he gave Paula such an aggressive reaction! He is a troll, after all!
I've been waiting to speak about this one since "Asylum..." One of the big elements you don't get in your reactions compared to the original BBC broadcasts is that, like how we all knew Amy and Rory were leaving the show in the mid-series finale, we also knew Jenna Coleman was cast as the new companion. So when they initially showed up in "Asylum," and consequently died, it was really confusing. Then when she showed up again here, there was a real sense of "what the hell is going on?"
In many ways, Moffat appeared to be trying to play with the problem of having actors coming and going being announced by the BBC. It meant he could never deliver any chock as to if someone was leaving or if a character would unexpectedly become a companion. Many fans often lament that it would be impossible to ever have a shock regeneration, as casting would always be announced too far in advance.
What Moffat did here with the changing of the companions, I believe, was down to an attempt to be creative with the limitations imposed on him by the reality of casting actors. Obviously whether you like what he does is a matter of opinion, but I think the reasons behind his thinking often get lost when watching for the first time, beyond the initial broadcast. Just adding a little context to consider when you think about why he does things in a certain way.
Also, regarding River, don't forget - technically she's already dead. Or from the perspective of being in the 19th century, she's not even been born yet. The technicalities of monogamy become quite complicated when you don't share a linear timeline with your lover!
Sure, The Doctor is married. And yeah, River could show up at any time. But also, he's technically been widowed since season 4, which in The Doctor's timeline was several hundred years ago.
The question about why Clara isn't just honest about who she is could only come from someone unfamiliar with the class system in the UK (which is still around to a large extent but was _much_ worse in Victorian England) - barmaid Clara with the working class accent could _never_ work as a governess for a wealthy family, that freedom just wasn't available to her.
I don't believe Moffat just does whatever he wants. I think what he does is write very long story arcs and then feeds them to you bit by bit. As a result, individual episodes don't always make sense while you're watching them, but after you view the entirety of his run and look back, you realize that what he wrote usually _does_ make sense. It's very much like the episode "Blink," how Sally didn't understand that she was the one who gave the Doctor all the info about her and the angels until she was right there doing it.
Steven Moffat doesn't give a fuck have you seen season 7 and 9 he does anything he wants to do
This exactly
It's weird, I thought that by binge watching it like this, that would seem more apparent, but obviously different people take different things from media
However one's reaction to a new companion are, I always like to not judge them before we had at least a few episodes with them because then we can start to know them better. It's like whenever you meet a new person, the first impression might not always be how they really are. I may be biased about Clara, however because she and Eleven brought me into the Whoniverse with this episode. I watched small CZcams clips of the scene when Clara and the Doctor run from the Ice Governess into the TARDIS and I immediately knew I was gonna love this show! So I bought Series 7 and watched from this episode on not even bothering to watch the stories with the Ponds because I already knew that they had started earlier and I didn't want to start in the middle of their journey so to speak.
Good Reaction, The Doctor and River clearly have an open marriage seeing River is both Dead and Alive, also in the Christmas Carol episode The Doctor got engaged to Marylin Monroe(maybe even Married), for me I love very moment of this episode, get Chills every time the Clara theme comes on, also this episode aired nearly 3 months after Angels Take Manhattan and most likely was years after Amy and Rory for the Doctor, and years since he last seen River
And it gave The Doctor time to practice his lines:
“Marilyn Munroe! Get your coat!”
“Amy Pond! Get your coat!”
A Paternoster Gang spinoff would be awesome!
They’re on Big Finish, but I’d also prefer to see them on TV on their own.
River and the Doctor have an open poly relationship, not conforming to 21 century norms
I hope that once Paula gets to the final episode, she realizes why Clara followed the Doctor right away.
So glad you kept at it. I have to say that next episode holds a special place in my heart: the very first episode of Doctor Who I ever sat down to watch. Yes, Matt Smith is my Doctor (though I love all the modern Doctors plus McGann - lost BBC America around the time the current one started but I saw two of _their_ episodes on the app).
It’s been fucking years since he had a companion… he’s comforting her while she’s dying because of him yet again.
"I need a little more explanation for her behaviour". Get ready for a lot of that with Clara.
Love the 'one word test'
The whole kissing shit is a bit much but at the same time.....I don’t give a fuck😂 cause it doesn’t ruin the show for me at all because it’s such a small thing to get annoyed at for me so I’m jut like I’m just gonna enjoy the episode. That’s my opinion on that scene anyway.
Ikr... also they didn't seem to have a problem when David Tennant went round kissing every girl he met, Rose, Astrid frok the Titanic Episode, Martha has a crush on him..and a few others which I shall not mention here for spoiler reasons. Also River doesn't have a problem with it so who cares... I think Paula's still recovering from.the shock that Moffat gave her in the last episode and is still grabbing at anything she can to hate him.
@@atharvadeshpande6907 yeah I know, like just watch it and don’t get so deep with it and enjoy it for what it is and don’t complain every 2 seconds about moffat cause they are petty
I don't know if you've seen it but there's a little minisode set before this on "Demon's Run" where Vastra revives Strax after his death, which is why he's still alive in this episode.
when this was first shown there had been a three month gap, which you didn't get as you are doing at least one a week so there had been time to recover from the end of amy and rory
You left out Strax's best line - "Do not attempt to escape or you will be obliterated! May I take your coat?" 😜
"Permission to express opposition to your current apathy?"
"Permission granted."
"Sir! I am opposed to your current apathy!"
It's hard to pick Strax's best line, he gets so many great ones!
I was so worried we wouldn't get an episode this week
I believe Katrina did a bad job of being a whovian here. The criticism of not being given time to adjust is illogical... The original airing had that. It was not meant to be binge-watched 10 yrs later. If u wanted to have time to adjust.... Should have taken a 3 month gap before this. Everybody is entitled to their opinion but not on wrong facts.
Paula sees the newly decorated Tardis and her first words are “I don’t like it”
She is one of us now
I actually dig it.
@@BritneyLaZonga I rather liked it better than Seasons 5 & 6. Especially the later touches (which I won't go into here for spoiler reasons).
@@BritneyLaZonga I like this version of the TARDIS console
But I think it looks even better once Capaldi comes in
Paula - “You’ve redecorated.....
I don’t like it.”
This episode is from the year of the 50th Anniversary. Each episode has Easter Eggs and references to classic Episodes of Doctor Who. For example, The 2nd Doctor (1967) confronts the Great Intelligence in the London Underground, set in the 1970s. It is in this Matt Smith episode where The Great Intelligence first learns the map of the London Underground as some sort of importance. - I hope Katrina does some research to find out all the 50th anniversary Easter eggs in this season.
Yes, thanks for reminding me of this.
Clara is one of my favorite companions. To me she’s very underrated and needlessly hated on. She’s a mystery to him, and constantly popping up in his life. Which is what is peaking his interest. I just think that they their relationship is friends, while being a bit flirtatious. But they never actually get together. They do care for eachother tho. And as far as the time built, there was 5 months between Amy and Rory’s departure, and we knew that was coming so we were prepared, and we also knew that Clara was the next companion AND that this was Matt Smiths farewell season.
Also, him kissing her on the forehead is a staple of Matt’s version of the character that’s how he shows compassion. He wasn’t being cocky and he wasn’t being an asshole… he hadn’t had anyone in his life that made him excited to show the universe! I don’t know… we’re all entitled to our opinions but this feels like more of an emotional response to not having time to breathe between Amy and Rory and Clara. I don’t think you’d have the same reaction if you had time between and took the time to process your emotions.
I can't wait to see Paula react to 12 and Clara. Very interesting whether she'll clue into the fact that Moffat, Capaldi, and Coleman all think of them as somewhat romantic or if she'll go with the father/daughter dynamic a lot of people hold onto. /g
i love that Paula always says stuff that’s later in the show. like she saw the new Tardis and said “i don’t like it” almost exactly like Tennant in the 50th. lololol and Katrina you’re really good at not giving stuff away.
also, im a governess (elementary school teacher), and a barmaid (bartender)… i didn’t notice Clara and I had that in common until you said that. 😂😂😂
I can imagine it being a bit jarring for anyone going straight through all the episodes, but for those of us who saw them on the release dates (at least in the UK) there was a 3 month gap between episodes 5 and 6, and then another 3 months before episode 7.
For me, the one big missed opportunity in the Moffet era is the nonstandard companions. Through out modern Who, the companions are mainly middle or working class girls from the 2000's (to serve as audience stand-ins) .Throughout all of time and space, the most interesting companions you could find all live within 100 miles and 10 years of each other? We get a more interesting tease with the Riddell/Neferetiti combo (a big game hunter and an Egyptian Queen) or the Paternoster Gang
(A Silurian, a Sontaran, and only a single vanilla human).
And while I feel for you, having just "lost" the Ponds, at least they got a relatively happy ending. I mean it not like they were smashed into a prehistoric planet earth because they couldn't solve a math problem.
Also, the Great Intelligence is not only a return of a Classic Dr Who villain. It's also an unofficial cross over with Lovecraft. In classic Who, the Great Intelligence is also known as Yog Sothoth, one of the Great Old Ones
Moffat wanted Victorian Clara but the BBC were worried ppl wouldn’t be able to relate
I was expecting a little break after last episode. Glad to see the first episode of Clara’s journey.
If you like a Victorian Matt Smith, then I can recommend the Sally Lockhart Mysteries, which also had Billie Piper
You needed a pause before watching this
I think the reactor experience is a bit different since you go in spoiler free when companions coming and going is often front page news up to a year in advance. Plus with the longer gaps between stories. All in all the reactor experience is more intense, which can be great, but can also make the negative things as intense too.
This is perhaps an instance where not having a temporal gap between episodes can change the experience. Also Moffat is seeding for a big timey-wimey pay off and as you will see this particular relationship will have many different layers of complexity to it.
Paula does go on a bit lately. She does not understand stuff. But she chats so much over everything she misses loads of stuff.
I also find it funny how people get so angry over something that is fictional.
It’s always Christmas somewhere!
Christmas Island!
Another glorious rant, I love it! 😍
I agree with most that if you really are feeling angry and judgemental about the pacing, bingewatching for a reaction channel is not a great idea; a couple weeks off would do some good. With that said, I kind of faded out of the show once Clara arrived, and I saw the episodes "as Moffat intended" live, so I sure don't mind this reaction haha. What can I say, she's just not Amy and Rory.
Hang on tight, Paula! Things are about to get seriously wibbly-wobbly!
The spinning discs on the TARDIS have the names of ALL of the doctors companions from Susan to the ponds
I only like the romantic arc of Clara here as establishment for later relationships. The Doctor is just infatuated because she's something _new,_ a new mystery after he was feeling extremely jaded about traveling the universe. He's got that exciting almost obsessive crush that all young teenagers get where he's not really thinking. As for this woman who he just met, but hadn't. I'm betting he does feel a weird connection to her because he had interacted with her already. I dunno. I really like where Clara went later in the show.
(Also, I suspect, but I can't be sure and don't want to presume, but given Paula's critical/analytical eye when watching stuff, that she's not a fan of the more recent Star Trek series either. Maybe. But that's also because I'm critical/analytical and see *many* problems with the writing in those shows)
Not too sure how important this will be to you, but you might be interested to know the raw voice of the Great Intelligence, once the influence of Dr Simeon was removed, was provided by the great Ian McKellan, famed for his roles as Gandalf, Magneto, as well as 128 other roles over a stellar 40 year career.
I watched doctor who on Netflix they didn’t have any Christmas specials on there so I didn’t even know this episode existed until shomi had everything I miss shomi lol but yeah
Some of the street scenes & the ladder up to the Tardis weren't done in Cardiff but were shot in Portland Square, Bristol.
I loved Victorian Clara! It would have been great to see her travel with the Doctor.
Here... We... Go............................................!!!
"Oh, my word . . oh dear! Hmm. Well . um . . perhaps I could play you a little something to soothe your nerves? (Jingle Bells) You don't? . . Well . . if that's your attitude!" (sulks) "I've had a better response to my music from an obstreperous octopoid ocelot (sulks more) . . AND it had toothache!"
Richard E. Grant, who played Dr. Simeon, has actually played the Doctor as well. It was the animated adventure 'Scream Of The Shakla'. It was released online about a year before the new version of Who debuted. There are several people from New Who who worked on it, including one very surprising voice. Grant also co-starred in 'Withnail & I' with Paul McGann, who also played the Doctor. And David Tennant guest-starred in his TV series, 'Posh Nosh'.
The Great Intelligence appeared in classic Who stories, 'The Abominable Snowmen' and 'The Web Of Fear'. The second story involved the GI's minions, the Yeti, invading London in 1967 through the Underground train system. The implication is the Doctor accidentally gave the GI the idea!
Richard E Grant played the (briefly) official new (ninth) Doctor, until the tv return was announced.
But don't forget "The Curse of Fatal Death". Grant played an unofficial (tenth) Doctor, after Rowan Atkinson and before Jim Broadbent.
You could say that he has played more versions of the Doctor than anybody else.
I was one who was all in with Clara from the beginning, but Paula reminds me of a friend of mine who never warmed up to Clara because she resented how sparkly she and the Doctor were lol, because of River. I personally never felt 11/River as a couple, and I actually reacted a bit to River at first the way Paula did to Clara here, because we find out she's the Doctor's wife in series 4 and I was still all about him and Rose. I did of course warm up to River because she's a great character, and I very much ship Twelver. I loved how she said "the chemistry they supposedly have" about 11/Clara lol! They definitely had it or she wouldn't have been so bothered! I do hope Paula managed to develop the affection for Clara my friend never did! Especially when she finds out there very much was a reason why Clara attached herself to the Doctor so quickly. Watching more vids now, hoping for the best...
I love the Doctor in this episode. He is tired and old and excentric and brilliant. That´s how the Doctor should be in my opinion. I wish they kept him like this for longer!
Wait a minute! Paula said the phrase "I don't like it!" about the new interior of the Tardis without having seen where it came from or any references? If so, that would be fantastic!
Glad its not just me that's pining for "The Steampunk Adventures of Madame Vashtra"! Like WHY IS THIS NOT A SHOW?!
I really love this episode and how it makes me feel.
I laugh, I question, I laugh, I'm excited, I'm afraid, I cry, then I'm happy again.
All in one episode.
British class system, you didnt step beyond your station and a gentleman would never hire a barmaid to educate his children... Just isnt done, old bean. Also, River is his second wife and it has been decades since he's seen her and technically she'd dead, so he's a widower - really Paula, should he carry a torch forever? The average lifespan for British women in the Victorian age was 42 so Clara's already past middle age, no wonder she's so forward, technically she is just past marriageable age so other than the Doctor, her Victorian prospects are not good.
Paula playing the 2nd doctor, "I can see you have been doing the TARDIS up a bit, I don't like it."
A couple years late, but your fans should be called the Gallifrey Gallery
Just wait. It's make more sense when you watch more episodes.
I can understand Paula's feelings toward everything, I had similar feelings when I first watch through these seasons (if a little bit less angry in comparison). But in the show/Moffat's defense, The Doctor doesn't really show Clara the same kind or same level of affection really, he just has a deep appreciation for good, clever human beings (of which Clara is definitely one of them). That's the reason for the affection he shows, especially in a crisis. He gradually warms to her and that affection/friendship grows more and more as time goes on. I don't agree that he should be cold or distant toward her for a while anymore than he actually was, once again especially in a dire situation where lives are at risk.
A LOT of Classic Who fans did NOT like the introduction of "romantic tension" into the Doctor / Companion relationships.
That said, the day a woman flirts with me as well & fun as Clara did with the Doctor, would be a VERY good day! ;)
[knock] [knock] [knock] [knock]
Do you wanna build a snowman...
Wow, I thought you were taking a break after Paula's rant last week! I'm glad you haven't :-)
No hatred for not liking Moffat, each to their own! :-D
Matt Smith as Scrooge would go so hard
I love how her reaction is just the same as all of us during the first time watching these episodes. But looking back at them, I enjoy them all so much more.
Ooh so hard not to go into a spoiler-y on where Clara’s story goes and how much it sets her early stuff in a different context; I’ll just say that a lot of the issues you’re having are the seeds of character stuff that Moffat and the rest of the writing team explore beautifully over the rest of her time on the show. 7b was so much better on the rewatch for me
Clara is so perfect I would forget Amy in five minutes too.
She's amazing.
And now we have the best Tardis look in my opinion.
This was when I finally started to like Eleven. I definitely find dark and broody Eleven more appealing, I can finally see the old man hiding in the young man's body. I also much prefer his second TARDIS interior, his original Dr. Suesian interior just had too much going on for me and I found it ugly.
the old man in the young mans body was very apparent early on. look at the big bang when he is practically out of breath at the end. his wisdom is very clear as well. 11 had always portrayed the old man side much better than anyone else even the actual old men playing the role! also he was very dark very early on. beast below ending for example and eps like the god complex.
The oldest 5yo kid!! Great acting from Smith to do that...