Repertoire: The WORST and BEST Schumann Symphony Cycles
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- čas přidán 10. 06. 2020
- The Schumann symphonies have been very lucky on disc--and very unlucky too. Performances tend to be either very good or very bad, with nothing in between. We take a look at the best and the worst, and give you all the information you need to make informed choices among the substantial crop of complete cycles.
- Hudba
i grew up in the Cleveland area and was raised,, aswere, by George Szell. I believed then and believe now that Szell was the greatest of all conductors. He thought these symphonies were underrated and programmed them often. I have heard many of the recording suggested here but still come back to the Szell. If any recordings could , for Szell, be a labor of love, it is these.
Yes. Szell combined orchestrial precision (with careful score attention/emendation) with a respect for Schumann's romanticism.The standard in Schumann, forever.
Kubelik with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra remains my favourite - humane, responsive and utterly beautiful accounts. I agree that the Zinman is great, though, and the Sawallisch is a classic.
Thank you so much for this survey. For years, I passed up the Sawallisch Dresden set, as I already had a few Schumann cycles, and that conductor rarely holds my interest. Following your video, I immediately listened on Naxos Music Library, and wow!, I was blown away!!! Such amazing clarity, and perfect phrasing throughout. Delicious winds and pointed brass!
You were spot on with this choice. Thanks.
Glad it was helpful!
This is great! Love your description of the Karajan sound! Thanks for the heads up on the Thielemann as I have not heard them, but have long had them on my radar, but now I won't have to worry about them. I love the Sawallisch set!
Thank you. It's always great to be able to use the term "oleaginous." Happens too rarely, unless you collect margarine.
Please, more Schumann! Especially the piano pieces.
The final movement of the Rhenish is absolutely glorious. The slow down of tempo for the chorale section and then letting it go off like a train is exhilarating. Never bored of it.
I'm so glad I discovered your channel, David. Your enthusiasms are very contagious! And I enjoy your sense of humor and have urged my friends to tune you in! Indeed, your talk on Haydn's London symphonies today has made me want to dip back into the Haydn waters, which have never been smooth sailing for me since . . .forever. Perhaps now, in late middle-age, they will speak differently to me. (I actually studied with a noted Haydn scholar, Edward Olleson, but even so, I never could warm to the symphonies when young. It has taken your talk today to motivate me to revisit them! Thanks!)
You're very welcome. Let us know if they strike you differently. They may, or they may not!
@@DavesClassicalGuide Will do.
@@DavesClassicalGuide So, David, after I posted above, I had an immediate urge to dip into them, but also wanted to peruse the score. So I just pulled up “whatever came up” on CZcams of #104 which also had the score.
“Oh no!” the Haydn curse persists, it seemed. Halfway through the first movement I had already “totally lost interest”! Yawnsville, Arizona.
But this morning was another day, and I thought ‘let’s try it again’: I downloaded the scores for (arbitrary choice) #95, 96 & 97 from IMSLP and found the Eugen Jochum LPO recording had been posted on YT and dialed that up.
And (whoa!) I LOVED these three symphonies. What a difference in their hands versus the other 104. So I went back to see who I had been listening to in #104 last evening, and it turned out to be Das Orchester Tsumugi (?) out of Fukuoka (quite so !), Japan. An ensemble, I think it is safe to say, that probably did not make the cut of your selected readings!
So thanks once again, from me, and probably my late tutor as well! The music is speaking to me as it never has before. Enjoyed those three a BUNCH.
----Mike
@@americanmultigenic Wonderful! Keep on listening (but take your time and really get to know it--let it sink in).
Just listened to Barenboim’s Spring Symphony (Teldec Box) and Sawallisch’s Overture, Scherzo, and Finale (same box you have). Barenboim’s sonics lack some clarity that Sawallisch’s (did I spell it right.) has in abundance. As you said, the Schumann is a very enjoyable piece. I almost, but not quite, don’t miss a slow movement. Wonder if he ever thought of adding one? By the by, the Barenboim performance I liked, too, sonics aside. The EMI goes back to the Lp days. Keep spurring me on to explore the ocean of my collection: 4500+ cds and 2500+ Lps. Yes, 83 years of insane love of classical music. 🤓
Thanks David , another wonderful talk .
I really like your videos. Please keep posting! I hope you can cover some obscure composers. I'm learning so many things about these pieces that I've heard a million times. For Schumann I like the 1986 Capriccio recordings with Neville Marriner and the Radio-Sinfonieorchester Stuttgart.
Thank you. I plan to do a lot of music by unfamiliar composers. This is just the beginning, so stay tuned!
I'm listening to the Bernstein Vienna Phil set now. Holy cow! Amazing!!!!!! Thanks so much for the recommendation!
My pleasure. I'm so glad that you like it.
Thanks for the recommendations - have somehow struggled with Schumann for a long time. Liking what I hear from Sawallisch and Staatskapelle Dresden so far.
Nice evaluations. Kubelik Berlin Phil. # 2 is my all time favorite, and for me the best example of having the orchestrations become dimensional in a very good way. Recording is also top.
Dear Mr. Hurwitz, thanks for the recommendations! The sawallisch is really amazing as you say! It just floats and never stops flying. Never heard such a wonderful Schumann. I think one of the secrets of why the recording works so well because is that it seems as though the mikes are placed a bit further away from the orchedtra and they let the Hall speak for itself, that’s why it is so transparent. This is something that engineers have seemed to forger… They allways place the miles so close now…
I have always loved Marriner's second go round in these. It is my favorite Schumann's fourth.
@edwardadams8634 i know, right? They have so much fire and verve, you would never think Marriner if you didn't already know.
I have problems with Schumann for years. The same problems i have with Brahms. The orchestration can be too thick, stodgy, heavy and cumbersome . The majority of recommendations including Sawallish, Dohnanyi, szell i have thrown in the bin. I'm not saying their performances are bad but just not my taste. I went years without listening to Schumann until one recording hit the market. This recording is Swedish Chamber Orchestra, Thomas Dausgaard (BIS) . They released the 2nd and 4th initially, then the others to complete the full cycle. I have these as separates. Not sure if a box set is available. I recommend these because of their lightness, crisp, detailed, transparent recordings. Also, the joyous excitement they generate is infectious, Its a pleasure to listen to Schumann now. My personal taste guys.
I love those Dausgaard recordings! So much energy and freshness.
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@Cassius Jamir Instablaster ;)
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Thank you so much you really help me out!
Thanks David. My favourite composer, I think the Zinman is great too
The John Eliot Gardiner set is revelatory. Truly refutes any criticism of Schumann's orchestration. I never even liked 1 and 4 that much until I heard Gardiner's set. It has a bunch of Schumann's lesser-played orchestral works too and makes great cases for them. The only one I don't absolutely love in Gardiner's set is Symphony no. 2. It's pretty good, but I like my Levine recording of that one more.
Gardiner is mediocre at best.
It's already been mentioned, but I'd definitely want Boult's cycle in the mix - it's often thrilling. I grew up with Paray (and still like them a lot) but for a combination of great modern sound with musical energy and transparency, I think Zinman's Zurich set is just about top of the list (great as Sawallisch and Bernstein II are).
By the way, a lot of the qualities that make the Staatskapelle's Schumann cycle with Sawallisch so special are also to be found in their underrated set of Beethoven symphonies with Blomstedt. I hope you can review that sometime.
David, thank you very much. The overview was thoughtfull and informative as usual. However, I missed hearing you talk about the Celibidache set from Münich (EMI/Warner). Any thoughts on that?
Thoughts? Er, the less said the better?
Of that cycle l personally save only the Second
Kubelik?
Couldn't agree more with the main recommendations. For me Zinman's no nonsense, exciting approach, and the way he clarifies Schumann's sometimes awkward orchestration is fantastic - paced to perfection. My only really small nitpick, is around the Feierlich movement in the Rhenish; I just wished he'd perhaps broadened the tempo slightly, to add a bit more mystery and majesty to it? Anyway that's just me - indispensable set. Thanks
Hello Dave,
Thank you for your videos, including your Schumann recommendations. Unfortunately, I can't buy the Barenboim box (at least here in Germany) either as a CD or as a download. But Deutsche Grammophon has re-recorded the cycle with Barenboim and the Staatskapelle and released it a few days ago. Have you had the opportunity to listen to these recordings? There is a great danger that Barenboim will follow up a brilliant recording with a less successful one :)
I love Schumann !, With 20 seconds of listening to Sawallisch, I realized that you were right. ! beautiful, thank you
David - greetings. I fully appreciate your critique of Karajan in Schumann even if I still glut out on those divine strings and the Klang itself. Do you have any thoughts please on Levine's DG cycle with the Berliners? In your opinion, was he any more successful than Herbie? There is also the Kubelik cycle on Sony with Bavarian forces. Please keep up the great work - Bernard
Thank you! Kubelik I discuss in the comments below. Levine's second cycle isn't as good as his first, IMHO, but others here disagree. Certainly it's better than Karajan's.
A movie bio of Schumann came out in 1983 ("Spring Symphony") that is pretty good. Unfortunately the presentation on you tube is in Spanish with no subtitles, but you can still tell what's going on with his romance to Clara. At the end of the movie he starts composing symphonies and there's a good Spring Symphony at the end.
I'm very happy to discover your channel David! Totally agreed with you on the Sawallisch set and I also like his Bruckner too. BTW I was at that Haitink's Shostakovich/Schumann concert. The programming was a little unusual but I did stay until the end, lol. The other Concertgebouw concert I attended that week they played Haydn's 88 (my favorite Haydn symphony) and Mahler's 5th. Don't know why but I have this strange feeling that I might have seen you in attendance also.....;-) If my memory serves me well there was a third one with Jessye Norman singing Fidelio in concert?
I think that's right. Haydn/Mahler was much better. I didn't see the Beethoven, if indeed that was also on offer.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you for the reply David. I remember Haitink keeps holding up Mahler's score during the ovation. That gesture essentially sums up his Mahler interpretations vs Bernstein's. 😄 I don't recall if Fidelio was on that same visit or another visit when they performed Mahler's 6th also.
@@DC-fx7uq Bernstein held up plenty of scores too in his day, and I don't think he was any less a "servant of the work" than Haitink was, but I take your point!
@@DavesClassicalGuide I didn't mean to imply that. Thank you for getting my point though that Bernstein was channeling Mahler where Haitink is a little bit more objective but I'm stating the obvious.
@@DC-fx7uq Thanks for the clarification. Of course, as I said, I take your point.
Always interesting ! Did you hear Paul Paray with the Detroit SO ? Please, tell me what do you think about ! Thank you !
Mostly very good--variable sonics.
I was actually shocked that the Paray set was not mentioned: I find his "classicizing" approach the most convincing, exciting, transparent, rhythmically incisive, and I'm less concerned about the variable sonics as the passion and conviction leaps out at you at each moment.
@@DavesClassicalGuide
I have Zinman both on Telarc and on Arte Nova, and I like them both. Somehow I find they can live together very well. I would not know which one of the orchestras plays “better” (I think I might prefer the strings of the Tonhalle Orchestra. And the recordings overall.), but the interpretative (and recorded sound) differences are of course there to hear.
Hey, thank you for this breakdown on these Schmann's cycles - really interesting and informative. Have you got any thoughts on Eschenbach's take on these works?
I find Eschenbach to be heavy an somewhat mannered.
Actually I listened to some of Eschenbach's Bamberg cycle today (the First and the Rhenish). It sounded heavy and laboured. He pulled the tempo around a lot which in my opinion destroyed the pulse and structure of much of the music (there's parts of Rhenish where he slowed down so much, I thought he was going to stop). It was as though he was trying to make it sound like Wagner!
@@curseofmillhaven1057 I agree. And the orchestra was just not up to the task.
Indeed, once again a very informative, inspirational and interesting video - thank you! I own a cycle with Neville Marriner and the Academy of St Martin in the Fields, do you have any thoughts about that one? Kind regards.
I think it's pretty average, but if you enjoy it then that is what matters.
@@DavesClassicalGuide thank you. I have just ordered the Zinman CDs, I am looking forward to comparing the two sets.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Dave, I think you must referring to the Capriccio recordings and not the Hanssler recordings. As for the Hanssler recordings, they were licensed to Brilliant Classics and were released at a very cheap price. An absolute bargain if you can still get hold of them.
@@rsmickeymooproductions4877 You're right, and I agree with you. Thanks for clarifying.
Listeners should be aware that most of Bernstein's work with the VPO (including Schumann) has video (now on DVD) connected to it. don't know if these performances are exactly the ones on cd/lp, but were usually recorded close to the non-video recording date Some of the stuff didn't come out on video in the U S for quite a while (for example, the Beethoven symphonies).
Hello David, its always great to listen to your reviews. Im quite fond of klemperer's Schumann cycle, but i've always wondered if his (as usually said) granitic aproach actually favors the music. ¿What do you reckon?
Some are great, but No. 3 is pretty bad. He was simply too old.
Klemperer's No. 4 was amazing, right up there with Furtwängler's at the very top, as far as I'm concerned. The other symphonies don't fare well under Klemperer. They need more liveliness. In fact, 2 of the movements in No. 3 are marked _Lebhaft_ (lively) and as great a conductor as Klemperer was in his old age, his late performances were never _lebhaft_ .
Funny. I find the 3rd my favorite. I hang on every note
Hi Dave, as I said, I love your explanations to my beloved classical pieces and it's funny to listen to your pronouncing of german titles. I am a german citizen and thank you for being that sympathetic guy. I adore you're sentence: Keep on listening. I do, I promise.
Wonderful!
So I just watched this video after watching your reference recording on the Schumann symphony cycle. Did you hear you correctly with the one sentence regarding the John Eliot Gardiner set also being one of the worst sets (I have that set unfortunately). And I also have the Roger Norrington set (both of which I picked up in a bulk CD collection). The Norrington set is sealed so before I open it, how is it?
Guess I should just get the Sawallisch set (and maybe the Bernstein/Vienna set as well).
Dear Mr. Hurwitz: I coincide with most of your assessments and am particularly happy about your accolade to Barenboim and the Staatskapelle Berlin. But, what about Kubelik and the Berlin Philharmonic on DGG?
Kubelik strikes me as rather drab. Sorry!
Alfred von Suppé the Kubelik Bavarian cycle is the one to get.
@@davecook8378 Yes, both. Neither impresses me.
@@1spitfirepilot Thanks! In fact I have both!
Dave, and what about Hans Vonk, Kölner Rundfunk-Sinfonie-Orchester, EMI Classics? I've been listening to this set for many years, and was quite happy with it. Fresh and crisp. Now, having found your review, I'll try your recommendations, of course.
I like this set as well. The hardest part of Hans Vonk's professional career (leaving aside his debilitating illness) was that his performances only sometimes translated well to disc. There are exceptions, however, and I think this set is among them. Vonk's Beethoven piano concertos (Zacharias), Schumann, and his Mahler 4, Bruckner 7 (unmatched!), and Messiaen Turanga-Lila Symphonie with St. Louis are vastly underrated performances. For much of the rest of it, where his performances were good the recordings often weren't or where his recordings were good his performances often weren't.
Hi Dave! What do you think about the Kubelik's traversal of Schumann symphonies with BPO?
Boring.
@@DavesClassicalGuide ok. Thanks. My personal choice is: Sawallisch, Von Dohnanyi and Bernstein. I wished Giulini could have pulled off his Schumann cycle with LAPO..
Muti also did a Schumann cycle with the Philharmonia for EMI, which is easier to come by than his Vienna cycle. How does that compare?
Muti with Philharmonia one of the best cycles! The second with Wiener is less interesting
I thought you might appreciate the fact that in their attempt to list the time stamp when you discuss each recording, CZcams lists the conductor of the first recording you discuss as Herbert Von Carrion.
A Freudian slip if ever there was one.
What is especially surprising about the Sawallisch set is that, despite the high hall resonance, everything registers clearly. I also like Solti - a nervous conductor for a nervous composer. The Vienna horns as recorded are unequalled in the "Rhenish".
Solti's VPO Rhenish is wonderful - exciting, impulsive and as you said just listen to those horns! Unfortunately haven't heard the rest of his cycle.
It's also very good--but the talk was getting very long and I had to stop somewhere, although you're all very kind to want more, and not less!
I got the Szell LPs way back when and I’m all set!
It’s been a long time since I listened to it, but have you heard the Sawallisch cycle from Philadelphia?
Or the Paray cycle from Detroit?
Thanks for recommendations. I have an idea for a future video. How about comparing symphonies that grab you from the very first hearing (like Mendelssohn's "Italian" Symphony) compared to symphonies that take a while to get acclimated to, but end up equally rewarding (like Schumann Symphony #2).
Interesting question!
Dave! It is surprising you did not mention Gardiner. I heard most of his rehearsals and performances when he was on tour with Mahler Chamber Orchestra doing the complete Schumann. He used period instruments (18-19th century, presumably those Schumann heard and used. Imagine he writes for Waldhorn in f# in Manfred) and that made me realize that Schumann indeed was a brilliant orchestrator. I was then assistant of Abbado and several projects were going in tandem. Besides other instruments, the natural horns and trumpets made the balance of the orchestra perfect. The trumpets melted into the woodwind sound. Horns were not too loud, etc. Since then I do not consider Schumann to be a bad orchestrator. When I conduct I try to achieve a transparent and delicate sound with modern instruments (most tiring for musicians). Please consider Gardiner with period instruments. If you do know them, what are your impressions? I did not hear the recordings. I heard all live.
Gardiner's recordings are terrible--this sounding and ill-balanced. Whatever you may have heard, it did not translate, unfortunately. That is why I did not discuss them.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you very much for your response. Most interesting. You could have placed these to the bottom of the "Never Buy" list. I have not heard the recordings, yet. I heard his Schumanns live only and that was the impresseion then. I conducted many Schumann symphonic works in the last 20 years and conducted the second symphony two days ago together with Manfred overture. I had to "deal" with the imbalance of orchstration again, and had to reorchestrate this and that as always. Caludio reorchestrated Schumann in the opposite direction of Mahler. Even more doubling (especially within strings, and somtimes getting support from wind for strings). In spite of this I can say that perhaps more period instrument experiments are necessary. And yes, Schumann is not a R. Srauss or Ravel in his orchestration technique, not even on par with other romantics. BTW I am not a Gardiner fan at all.
You are completely deaf, Mister - "sounding and ill-balanced"...
What do you think of the complete Schumann orchestral works on Audite with Holliger?
I came here looking for that answer myself! For the price, as a download straight from Audite, I'll make my own mind.
Always found it interesting how different conductors handle the timpani at the end of the 2nd Symphony.
Your thoughts on the Schumann cello concerto?
Any thoughts on Ansermet? I really like his Schumann Second.
Beautiful performance
Don’t forget Sawallisch’s 2nd cycle with Philadelphia, recorded in the bright acoustics of Philly’s new (at the time) Verizon Hall. While the live performances on the Orchestra’s own private label. might lack the legendary stature of Dresden, the digital immediacy and clarity of the playing help depict the Philly transition from Muti’s orchestra through Levine’s Philly cycle into the early digital age.
The "set" I go to is with Antoni Wit conducting the Polish National Radio Symphony Orchestra (Katowice) on Naxos. I have Szell on LP, but it never turned me on. I also have Haitink, which sounds nice enough to me, I don't hate it, but the Antoni Wit recordings are superior.
Dear mr. Hurwitz, you are always a delight to see and listen to. Another one to mention is Stanislaw Skrowaczewski's cycle in Oehms. For me one of the best available.
Also Skrowaczewski with Deutsche S.Orch, fantastic! Top level
Anyone who knows if and when the Barenboim Staatskapelle Berlin cycle will be released again? I've got the Chicago version, but I find the Berlin version far more interesting (found them att Naxos Music Library). With the Bruckner cycle it's the other way around. I have got the Berlin Phil version which is not to my liking. But the Chicago version seems impossible to get hold of. Will that be released again?
For all of my love for the German Romantic school, I have but one Schumann symphony cycle. I bought it years ago to sort of "fill the gap" as it were and it's been my only reference since. No one, and I mean no one, ever mentions this so perhaps it's a real sleeper? It's Kurt Masur/London Philharmonic on Teldec. Given your descriptions of the two different approaches to the Schumann cycle, I would put it in the "Classicist" camp. Any thoughts about Masur (whether this 90-91 LPO cycle or his other with Leipzig Gewandhaus 1974)?
Masur is usually decent, but relatively unexciting, with a few exceptions...
I just came here for the Thielemann bashing 😁
But seriously though, you’ve criminally neglected to mention Skrowaczewski. That is such an exciting and absolutely terrifically played set. Especially the second. But really all of them. It’s an astounding achievement.
It's a bore.
@mishibird I agree with you. I also love his Brahms Fourth, but most others find it boring too. I still do not hear anything wrong with it.
I believe I have a set with Wolfgang Sawallisch conducting the Staatskappelle Dresden and it's wonderful, and my absolute fave.
You're not sure?
Interesting... I've heard many cycles and I find the Haitink-cycle overall the most enjoyable (maybe for the Rhenisch I would prefer Dohnanyi).
I attended one of the Barenboim/Staatskapelle Schumann concerts on tour and had a great time (the 2nd and 3rd are two of my favorite symphonies btw though we got 4 and 2 + Manfred in the hall ) and was happy I later bought the set. I have Bernstein NYP, Szell, and got both Levine cycles, I heard the Philly one last Saturday and loved 2 and 3; 4 was quite good but, sorry, #1 drove me crazy because he kept fussing with it especially in the outer movement sand inserting all sorts of rit. and rubati where Schumann didn't ask for them and didn't want them. The finale to #1 has such a trivial theme anyway, fussing with the music doesn't help. I agree with you about the must-have Sawallisch set.
My favorite Rhenish is Toscanini's 1949 EXCEPT the Cologne 4th mvt is too fast. But the rest is wonderful. Ditto his 1941 2nd, an amazing, thrilling scherzo and singing, surging slow mvt (the greatest of RS's symphonic mvts IMO). He also did a great Rhenish in 1945--just as the Allies were crossing the Rhine! (and the Americans were in Paris, yes he did that too). It's probably on you tube.
I’ve been listening to various Schumann Seconds. Yesterday I heard the Vienna Philharmonic under Bernstein. It’s a blockbuster of a performance, but so different than Sawallich, who’s my current favorite. Bernstein plays it like it’s Mahler Five. It reminds me of how Kleiber plays the Beethoven Fifth, but even more so. It’s Schumann². I very much like it as a performance, it it doesn’t seem idiomatic to Schumann’s style the way Sawallich does to me. A pull out all the stops approach that I’ve heard Giulini use for Bruckner. I think there’s only certain composers and works that warrant that kind of approach.
My favorite Schumann cycle is Boult’s with the London Philharmonic. I like swift, driven performances in symphonies, and in Schumann Boult delivers what for me is the most electrifying of the eight cycles I own.
I agree 100%, Sir Adrian studied the scores and met Fanny Davies who was a pupil of Clara Schumann. His performances along with Paul Paray and Paul Kletzki are my very favorites. I hope that David H. listen to hem some day.
I haven't heard Kletzi but the Paray is among my favorite cycles.
Dave, how do you feel about Barenboim’s second Schumann cycle with the Staatskapelle? I think I know the answer already. ;)
Yep.
I see that our wayward friend Sinopoli did a cycle. He has his moments but is his Schumann worth investigating?
I love his 2nd. The slow movement is breathtakingly beautiful. The scherzo really flies - exciting to the max!
Wow, thanks Dave!
I love all four symphonies and Houston Symphony played them this season in a Schumann festival, including also the piano concerto and cello concerto. Surprised to hear Hurwitz comments on the Gardiner but reviews of that set were all over the map. His comments on the Karajan set are illustrative of the most common complaint about Karajan--sometimes there is a tendency to homogenize into what one critic calls "Karajan soup".
I find Gardner to be cold, detached, and boring. Karajan could be most un-Karajan -like at times (witness his Prokofiev and Shostakovich), but not, sadly, in Schumann or Mendelssohn.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Couldn't agree more about Gardiner. (And it's not only his Schumann).
I must say I completely agree in taste in both good and bad recordings... Especially Sawallisch and Szell for me. Although I mostly adore Karajan, I admit his Schumann cycle is mostly awful-- but also greatly suffers from bad, harsh sound. And I personally don't put it next to the really abysmal Thielemann. Because at least there's always line and an idea of some kind behind it...
David, are you aware of a similar CZcams channel that covers Jazz artists/albums similar to what you do?
No.
Chailly made a Schumann Symphonies Cycle with Concertgebouw but it is not so striking...I like much the Solti's for Decca, Sawallisch on Warner/Emi and also Yondani Butt with London Symphony Orchestra...someone knows this latter?! For me was a real surprise! :)
One detail I love about Barenboim's later cycle is the advantage it takes of the chromatic timpani. I think this makes a huge difference. As a percussionist, I'm sure you feel the same way. I think timpani parts in general in pre- 20th century orchestral music should be rewritten so that they fit precisely with the harmony.
Actually, I think it's pretty hard to hear the difference unless the parts are very exposed. In louder passages or at densely scored moments the effect is much the same either way.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Dave, I have to respectfully disagree. I think the tuning of the timpani in orchestral music is always very audible, and can thus enhance or obscure a passage. The opening of the Spring symphony is a case in point. Schumann has the timpani tuned to B-flat and F, but the very first cadence is in D minor. To hold F through this not only obscures the bass line, but also has nothing to do with the dominant harmony of D minor. To hear this cadence with the timpani in unison with the bass makes a world of difference to the overall effect. The fact that Barenboim is sensitive to this aspect of the sound immeasurably enhances these superlative performances in my view.
@@nb2816 I respect your opinion, and wouldn't argue that it's better your way.
@@DavesClassicalGuide It's no doubt obsessive on my part, lol, but at least it doesn't unduly prevent me from enjoying other performances that don't take this issue into account. Thanks again for providing an invaluable service for those of us who still love and care about the art, especially during these times of disintegration.
@@nb2816 Obsessive is good!
Dave - greetings. Insofar as it sparks your interest, here is a tough question to ask, Schumann-wise. What are the best Carnavals? Would love to hear your thoughts one day.
Oy! A tough one. I hesitate to do piano works that way (as opposed to great discs by individual artists) because there are just so many recordings and people feel so passionately about individual soloists...
Muti did two complete Schumann symphony cycles, one with the Philharmonia and one with the Vienna Phil. I find them quite enjoyable. In fact, I don’t like anyone else’s Schumann. I think the Philharmonia/EMI set is more atmospheric. What do you think about Muti’s Schumann recordings?
See my review at ClassicsToday.com.
Hey David...here is a suggestion, make a video about Schumann Das Paradies und die Peri and it's THE Gardiner recording.
Wow! Zinman’s album is riveting! His an Sawallich’s are my two favorites so far, and what a contrast in approach.
I agree--both wonderful, and a splendid variety in interpretation too.
@@DavesClassicalGuide This music seems to require a great interpreter more than most music does. That might make for a good episode on your channel, if you're taking requests: what repertoire most depends upon its interpreter if it's going to come across well, have the full effect? I've heard it said that Bruckner likewise requires great interpretations; without them, the composer himself sounds like he doesn't know what he's doing. Bach is often on the other end of the spectrum, it's foolproof. But what else demands as much from the interpreter, in orchestral, chamber, and solo repertoire?
@@james.t.herman Good question!
@@DavesClassicalGuide I've just listened to Bernstein's full cycle, and must retract my comment below. On first hearing him conduct the Second, I thought it was overwrought, but Bernstein allows me to hear these symphonies on a grander scale. I must have been introduced to Schumann's symphonies in chamber-scale performances - in fact that's right, the first cycle I can remember hearing was Gardiner's, and I also remember hearing Thielemann play the Second when I was very young, and it seemed smaller in scope and much less interesting - because I'm only just now hearing them on par with Brahms. A real "a ha!" moment for me.
I'll try the Zinman - I like him in general. Of course, I have the Sawallisch set.
Of course... ;)
Just picked up the 2015 BC Schumann Edition box. Hope it was a wise move. Thanks!
What is "BC"?
@@LyleFrancisDelp Brilliant Classics
@@brutusalwaysminded Thank you.
Love furtwanglers version of the 4th, on the same record that has furtwanglers 2nd symphony
That is one of the greatest recordings of all time. I have it on CD along with Furtwangler's equally wonderful Haydn 88.
I totally agree with Sawallisch and I grew up with Szell. Somewhere along the way you recommended a set that adheres to HIP conducted by Merz. it must have been in another review. I was intrigued so I got it, mainly because I wanted the fest overture that includes a choir. I do enjoy the performances with one caveat. To me, the Timpany is obnoxious. it is just too loud and overbearing for my taste. And I’m rather surprised because I really get a kick out of the timpani in Paavo Jarv’s Beethoven recordings. The other thing I would say is that just about any performance of these symphonies is enjoyable to me because I love the tunes. They contain some of the most beautiful melodies I can think of. His orchestration has never really bothered me all that much.
Wowie-zowie! (as they say in the trade). I've got at least a baker's dozen of Schumann symphony sets in my collection, and this omnibus review knocks my socks off.
David, I agree with almost all of your evaluations. (Great minds, and all that.) Haitink's set IS the most boring I've ever sat through; he brings nothing to the table, and the usually glorious Concertgebouw plays as if on autopilot, with the pilot asleep at the controls. Zzzzz... As for Fluffy and his Berliners: I confess that, in an earlier life, I was bamboozled by the Penguin Guide's raves. ("Karajan's interpretations of the Schumann symphonies stand above all other modern recordings.") I soon learned that whenever the Penguins go on to mention "the violins above the stave," there's trouble a-brewing.
No mention of Klemperer? I'll admit he's an acquired taste, not acquired by everyone, but a guilty pleasure in which I joyfully indulge. ("More guilt than pleasure," some critics might add. So be it.)
If I were limited to just one set, it would be Szell, Levine/Philly, Sawallisch, Kubelik with whatever orchestra he's conducting, and Otto the Great... Okay, so I flunked first-grade math.
BTW, give a listen to the set by Florian Merz and the Klassische Philharmonie Dusseldorf. (Aka Schumann for Percussion and Brass.) A wild ride indeed. Just imagine what Currentzis will do when he gets a hold of these scores!
UGH. I find that the only complete cycle I have is the von Karajan will have to remedy that . Also have a young Mehta with the Vienna Philharmonic on Eloquence which is not bad.
What about Klemperer's Schumann? Good? Bad? Interesting?
"...So bad that I kept them..."
Like JERRY LEWIS JUST SINGS and (gulp) MORE JERRY LEWIS JUST SINGS.
Or PLAN NINE FROM OUTER SPACE...So very bad that they exert a fascination.
Any thoughts on Rosbaud's cycle?
Thank you for mentioning Karajan first. When I bought the cycle on LP in my youth, I was aghast by the bad interpretation.
I was waiting for you to "Gong Show" the Karajan set... ;-)
Think Furtwängler has a great fourth, maybe that symphony suited the old school better
From the cycle I think the second is the most problematic, full of ideas not leading anywhere at times, but sometimes the moments could graspingly beautiful like in the slow movement
Yes, he does.
i also like the Inbal Schumann with the great New Philharmonia:deutliche Mittelstiimen und immer durchhörbar, ich habe ihn auch als Lps,vorallem die 2.und 3.Sinfonie sind top.
Ach, nein!
@@DavesClassicalGuide Hi what do you think about Kletzki and Schumann?
My experience at first with these works was the Second. I don’t remember all the performers I’d heard play it, but I know that one was Thielemann. It always came across as a dry, uninteresting symphonic argument. Then I heard Gardiner’s period performance, and suddenly I really liked the Second. It came off as a breathtaking ride full of yearning and Romantic ardor. But I’ve just listened to Sawallich and it’s better than Gardiner. Sawallich makes the piece work formally, as Gardiner does, but he also lets Schumann’s lines sing and breathe where Gardiner marches past them without stopping to smell the roses at times. I’m a fan of period performance in Baroque and Classical literature, and in some early Romantic repertoire, but I’m not usually convinced that it’s appropriate by the time of Schumann. Anyway, thanks for the recommendations! Aside from Gardiner (whose readings I still think are good, but not great) these recordings are my first real experience of Schumann.
Also, I’m starting to think that prefer Dohnanyi’s records with Cleveland to Szell’s.
Muti’s Second with Vienna is well done, but I prefer the narrower dynamic range Sawallich uses. I suppose the Schumann symphonies work better for me as small- to medium-size orchestra music.
Gardiner's cycle is actually really good
Actually, it's not.
Ah sorry...I've forgotten to mention another superb Schumann Symphony Set: Paul Paray with Detroit Symphony Orchestra...fast, brisk, exciting...a real shocker! Not for all tastes perhaps...but so original!
But very uneven sonically--I enjoy the performance a lot also.
The one and only performance on disc to get within hailing distance of Schumann's (gasp-inducingly fast) metronome marking in the finale of No. 2. It's a stonking cycle overall too.
Right on with Sawallisch and Zinman both most underrated conductors!!!!
Sawallisch is the very best! (imho) Almost a miracle. The "classic" performance of Kubelik /
BPO is boring, although it has many beautiful moments.. but it lack's the passion and drive.
Sawallisch, Szell, Bernstein the best in my opinion
@@nicolapascoli4580 Exactly, The Szell is underrated.
I'm also very thankful for Dave's recommendations. Sawallisch/Dresden's Rhenish symphony blew my mind, I haven't heard a better performance of it. The accents and orchestral balance in outer movements are so perfect, Kubelik/BPO is too heavy and straightforward in comparison. Holliger/WDR Koeln sound ligher and softer on the other hand, They aren't bad, but they don't have this perfect balance when different parts intersect.
My go to set is Dohnanyi’s with Cleveland
I was disappointed with Dohnanyi's Cleveland Rhenish - bit too analytical and characterless for my taste. Notes all in the right place but the feeling? Each to their own. I grew up with Solti's VPO version.
Keith Parmenter I would say the 4th is the high point of his cycle. On my one and only time in New York I heard the Cleveland Orchestra do the Rhenish. Leinsdorf conducting. The horns are still ringing in my ears
@@denbigh51 Please hear the classic great recordings of the Schumann Symphonies as done by Paul Paray, Sir Adrian Boult and Paul Kletzki. Classic great conductors at their best. listen also to a glorious Rhenish Symphony live with Toscanini! Once you hear the propulsiveness of the Rhenish as done by Toscanini or even Paray the rest of those conductors mentioned are way too idyosyncratic with the possible exception of Szell.
@@ms-dosguy6630 I AGREE WITH 100% WITH MS-DOS Guy. Listen to Koussevitzky, Bruno Walter (!!)
Hmm. I agree that Karajan doesn't click in the "Spring" (stodgy and joyless) or the "Rhenish" (ditto, except for a great first movement). I like his Second a lot, though - the first movement has more drive and vim than Sawallisch's, and not many string sections fill out the Adagio's great theme as beautifully Karajan's Berliners (though Sawallisch is very fine here as well). As for the Fourth: I frankly don't care for the piece. The first movement is like a bad imitation of Beethoven's "Coriolan" Overture.
I have t admit to really liking the Karajan Rhenish first movement. At least I am not alone!
In my opinion the
Von karajan Robert
SCHUMANN symphonies recordings
On D G label
Are the best on CD
ESPECIALLY THE NO 2
and 3 and 4
I completely disagree
With the upove
Comments totally
Karajan was the greatest SCHUMANN
Interpretation
“Probably able to hear the best Schumann now than anytime in the past.” I hope you will still believe this. After hearing this summary, I have recorded both the 1841 original and the 1851 revised versions of the 4th Symphony. Sawallisch is definitely a reference point for the later version, thank you. What inspired me is the idea that there are two very different versions of the same symphony by the same composer possibly due to his mental health condition, which he named Florestan and Eusebius, which we know today as bi-polar. The result is a fascinating psychological portrait of Schumann through his music. I hope you’ll like it.
Oddly enough, it as Thielemann's Schumann 2nd that put me off him forever. Heard it once, and he twisted and pulled the phrasing in such perverse ways, it sounded like he was trying to be Furtwangler, but to my ears, it just sounded arbitrary and unnecessary.
UMG has been dumping recordings all over CZcams recently, including the Kubelik Schumann cycle with the Berlin Philharmonic.
I've been noticing that, and wondering if this is a good thing, or a deceptive prelude to them dealing with CZcams to start charging to listen to music on here.
@@OuterGalaxyLounge Yeah I don't know what it means. People probably wouldn't notice unless they were subscribed to these topics (not their actual channels), or searched for the artist and filtered by recently-uploaded videos, but it regularly fills up half my "subscriptions" tab, just from Berlin Phil and Yuja Wang alone. Who knows how many other artists' recordings are getting pumped out too. Is this in lieu of reissuing them? Are they just dumping their entire back catalog on CZcams? They don't seem to have any marketing attached to them, the covers are bland and generic (no picture, just a flat color and basic text, all the same), etc. As I mentioned, these ones had been up for a day or so, and I was the first person to even watch any of them.
Thielemann has been dropping bombs all over the place recently. A very overrated conductor. The less said about his Beethoven symphony cycle the better.