Daniel Schmachtenberger “Bend Not Break Part 1: Energy Blindness” | The Great Simplification #05
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- čas přidán 13. 06. 2024
- On this episode we meet with founding member of The Consilience Project, Daniel Schmachtenberger.
In the first of a five-part series, Nate and Daniel outline the macro risks and pathways for civilization to 'bend' and avoid 'breaking' in coming decades.
In the Part 1 conversation, Schmachtenberger flips the script to interview Nate about the urgent problems his research and work on energy, money, and growth confront. Nate explains how we can come to understand energy blindness and the overlooked role of oil in consumption, production, and progress since the Industrial Revolution. The dominant narrative of human progress prioritizes capital and labor - but the omission of energy and materials leaves out a key component to understanding how the modern human ecosystem functions.
Further, Nate discusses how a growth economy will inevitably lead to increased energy production and consumption, and how new energy technologies like renewables end up creating more energy output, not less. Putting everything together, in outsourcing our decisions and planning to a market dependent on growth, we have not so metaphorically become an energy hungry superorganism.
Finally, Daniel and Nate look forward to answering: What are ways for us to prepare for a post-growth economy? How can we stay balanced in the face of existential crises? What type of policy can help shape a future that is yet to arrive, and how can we get ahead?
Truncated Show Notes - (full linked notes at www.thegreatsimplification.co...)
01:15 - Daniel’s website
02:00 - Nate’s work on Macro-issues: Reality Blind Vol. 1, Reality 101 Energy Videos, Economics for the Future - Beyond the Superorganism
02:15 - Daniel’s work on micro-issues
05:00 - Consilience Project
08:10 - Marvin Harris - Cultural Materialism
10:50 - Energy is the currency of life and a core driver of nature
11:42 - Climate warmed and stabilized, propelling agriculture and creating more energy surplus
12:50 - Since the 1800s we’ve been using stored fossil energy surplus 10 million times faster than it was sequestered
13:22 - Economics treats energy consumption like interest rather than principle
13:35 - One barrel of oil is equivalent to 5 years of human work (section 4.3)
14:40 - There is no substitute for energy
15:02 - GDP cannot decouple from energy
15:55 - The current financial system requires growth to continue
16:20 - Central banks are blowing up their balance sheets to keep the system going
16:50 - We are a superorganism
17:15 - Technology is dependent on energy
19:00 - Fourth Law of Thermodynamics - Maximum Law Principle
19:52 - Kleiber's Law
22:38 - Anthropocene
23:15 - Inequality of consumption correlates with surplus
23:46 - Dunbar’s number
24:24 - Individual and cultural plasticity
24:50 - Exosomatic energy - the average american consumes over 200,000 Kcals per day
25:43 - We use 100 billion barrel equivalents of oil, coal, and natural gas - equivalent to 500 billion human workers
28:37 - Stone age and overhunting
30:30 - Humans and livestock are 98% of mammalian biomass
30:47 - Total biomass is 700% of what it was 10,000 years ago
31:17 - 60% of nitrogen in our bodies today has a chemical signature from natural gas from synthetic fertilizer
32:02 - Most of history our food system was a net energy producer, now it’s a net energy sink
32:45 - Our entire food system uses 10 times the energy that it produces
35:03 - Over the last 50 years GDP grew 100% while energy is growing 99% (Figure 2)
35:54 - Energy link to GDP, some countries reduce energy intensity from exports and imports
36:33 - Global GDP is still very tightly coupled
37:30 - Financial manipulation also creates the illusion of decoupling
39:28 - Wide boundary thinking
40:26 - Nate’s Hagens - Economics for the future - Beyond the Superorganism
40:41 - Jevons paradox
42:12 - Energy depletion
42:40 - Two categories of technology
47:25 - We are at diminishing returns on oil
47:55 - The nature of interest requires financial growth
49:00 - Potential vs Kinetic energy
50:54 - Renewables are actually rebuildables
51:20 - In 2019 the electricity demand grew by more than all the solar voltaic capacity ever built
52:10 - We are using more wood today than we were 100 years ago
54:15 - EROI - Energy Return on Investments
57:03 - Intermittence and variability
57:51 - Fossil carbons have a higher total system return on investment
59:07 - 20% of total global energy is electricity and many things aren’t replaceable by electricity
1:00:07 - We traded out human labor for mechanical labor, exponentially growing our system
1:03:36 - We underpaid for the core economic input and don’t pay for the negative externalities
1:04:45 - Tim Garrett - GDP and CO2 chart
1:06:05 - Full cost accounting for life cycle of coal
1:08:20 - 95% of taxes are on human labor
#DanielSchmachtenberger #TheGreatSimplification #NateHagens
I humbly comment so youtube algorithm will suggest this profound information to more people :)
My goodness. My late husband was talking like this decades ago. I only wish he'd lived long enough to have witnessed these discussions.
was your late husband a scientist or philospher?
🙏🙏
@@mvondoom Aspiring? Yes. Practical application during many years of logistics and procurement.
Yes. It is a good conversation but not new .
So, did he know of Allen Watts?
This is such a consequential conversation. Well said at the end - "if you aren't outraged, you are not paying attention" and "If you aren't overwhelmed by the Beauty of Life, you are not paying attention." Both simultaneously true; and many of us are holding both the outrage and the Beauty within us simultaneously. My love for the Earth motivates me deal to do 'good work' because I am kin to Earth. That is how I deal with my existential angst. Thank you for sharing the discussion, ~
Your love for the Earth is one-sided!! The Earth doesn't care about you and it doesn't need you. Those lofty ideals are just that... lofty ideals which people need in order to feel good about themselves. There are plenty of flaws in their approach. Getting goosebumps doesn't mean what's been said is applicable!!
Oh *friend! I feel your spirit* and share it. The earth provides for *the butterflies!!* Miracles from large to small, animate and inanimate, *earth provides for all life.* We are all related. We are all made of the same atoms, and use the same DNA blueprint system. We are truly related Ken, and this earth is a paradise, a literal paradise of creativity, beauty, playfulness, joy, and above all *interconnection*
@@youtubehatesfreespeech2555 absolutely agree. I mean I love nature since I surfed growing up constantly and went on many backpack trips in the sierras but I find that hippy love Gaia shit so nauseating. Yes Earth is beautiful and amazing but it does not care about you and homo sapiens first!
@@idnintel I find it very hard to see the beauty of Nature. The endless carnage is something which draws my attention more than the "amazing" sunsets! Nature is brutal if you look at her totality! Far more bad and good!
@@youtubehatesfreespeech2555 I know where you are coming from of course but it is both. I have like I said surfed and backpacked tons (and experienced great beauty) but both activities can easily kill you and the earth does not give one shit about you, take care!
“You do not have to be good.
You do not have to walk on your knees
for a hundred miles through the desert repenting.
You only have to let the soft animal of your body
love what it loves.”
Mary Oliver
Wild Geese
Nate and Daniel thank you for this vital conversation. In these times I find hope in poetry, arts, and community like the one you are forming one conversation at a time.
Thank you 🤍🌊
That "let the soft animal of your body love what it loves" is the root cause of all the turmoil we find ourselves in today. The animal body has too many demands and it uses itself to increase consumption via science and tech. The brain is also the body and we have been using our brains to give this animal body all kinds of pleasures and niceties. And here we are... the machine is destroying the ecosystems as well as human life. What have we done?
Lol not even the whole poem just reading the last few lines on a CZcams comment gives me the chills 😂😅❤
Here are show notes and references w time stamps: (copied over from thegreatsimplification.com).
Show Notes
01:45: Daniel’s website and other works
civilizationemerging.com/about/
2:30: Nate’s work on Macro-issues
Economics for the Future - Beyond the Superorganism
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800919310067
Reality Blind book Volume 1 (online)
read.realityblind.world/view/975731937/i/
Reality 101 Videos
5 hour series: czcams.com/video/YsgxopIZzto/video.html
1 hour series: czcams.com/play/PLdHV4AV3ixB2GIi8SyuCANgMmBKYRtyJS.html
energy only series: czcams.com/play/PLdHV4AV3ixB2J2PQrvbDnDg_93YAlklTK.html
2:45: Daniel’s work on micro-issues
civilizationemerging.com/
5:30: consilience project
consilienceproject.org/
8:40: Marvin Harris - cultural materialism
anthropology.ua.edu/theory/cultural-materialism/
11:20: Energy is the currency of life and a core driver of nature
www.wiley.com/en-ie/Behavioural+Ecology:+An+Evolutionary+Approach,+4th+Edition-p-9780865427310
Lotka: Contribution to the Energetics of Evolution
12:12: Climate warmed and stabilized, propelling agriculture and creating more energy surplus
www.dandebat.dk/eng-klima7.htm
link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10818-013-9156-6
13:20: Since the 1800s we’ve been using stored fossil energy surplus 10 million times faster than it was sequestered
www.pnas.org/content/112/31/9511
13:52: Economics treats energy consumption like interest rather than principle
read.realityblind.world/view/975731937/212/
14:05 One barrel of oil is equivalent to 5 years of human work
www.iier.ch/pub/files/Sun%2C%2007/31/2011%20-%2016%3A11/Green%20Growth%20DFID%20report.pdf
Economics for the Future - Beyond the Superorganism - section: 4.3
15:10: There is no substitute for energy
www.theguardian.com/news/2015/apr/08/can-world-economy-survive-without-fossil-fuels
15:32: GDP cannot decouple from energy
journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0164733
16:25: The current financial system requires growth to continue
www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/11/economic-growth/506423/
16:50: Central banks are blowing up their balance sheets keep the system going
www.yardeni.com/pub/peacockfedecbassets.pdf
17:20: We are a superorganism
read.realityblind.world/view/975731937/126/
Maximum Power Principle and the Human Superorganism
17:45: Technology is dependent on energy
read.realityblind.world/view/975731937/222/
19:30: Fourth Law of thermodynamics - Maximum Law Principle
read.realityblind.world/view/388478403/170/
20:22: Kleiber's Law
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleiber%27s_law
read.realityblind.world/view/975731937/198/
czcams.com/video/hLGDJFGAmic/video.html
23:08: Anthropocene
www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/what-is-the-anthropocene.html
23:45: Inequality of consumption correlates with surplus
www.smithsonianmag.com/history/aracheology-wealth-inequality-180968072/
24:16: Dunbar’s number
royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsbl.2021.0158#:~:text='Dunbar's%20number'%20is%20the%20notion,other%20individuals%20in%20the%20group.
24:54: Individual and cultural plasticity
www.bibliovault.org/BV.landing.epl?ISBN=9780226712840
25:20: Exosomatic energy - the average american consumes >200,000 Kcals per day
www.ejolt.org/2012/12/human-energy-use-endosomatic-exosomatic/
26:13: We use 100 billion barrel equivalents of oil, coal, and natural gas, equivalent to 500 billion human workers
read.realityblind.world/view/975731937/190/
Energy is Merely a Commodity 29:35 timestamp from Earth and Humanity
29:07: Stone age and overhunting
www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/04/19/604031141/new-study-says-ancient-humans-hunted-big-mammals-to-extinction
31:00 Humans and livestock are 98% of mammalian biomass
www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/21/human-race-just-001-of-all-life-but-has-destroyed-over-80-of-wild-mammals-study
31:17 Total biomass is 700% of what it was 10,000 years ago
www.pnas.org/content/105/Supplement_1/11543
31:47 60% of nitrogen in our bodies today has a chemical signature from natural gas from synthetic fertilizer cen.acs.org/articles/86/i33/Haber-Bosch-Reaction-Early-Chemical.html
vaclavsmil.com/wp-content/uploads/docs/smil-article-1999-nature7.pdf
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process (last 2 references)
32:32 For most of history our food system was a net energy producer, now it is a net energy sink
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2935130/
33:15: our entire food system uses 10 times the energy that it produces
blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/10-calories-in-1-calorie-out-the-energy-we-spend-on-food/
www.postcarbon.org/publications/the-future-is-rural/
35:33: Over the last 50 years GDP has been growing 100% while energy is growing 99%
Figure 2: synapse9.com/drafts/2021-NewSci-IndividSys-MS.pdf
36:24: Energy intensity of GDP, some countries have been reducing their energy intensity due to exports and imports
voxeu.org/article/myth-decoupling
37:03: Global GDP is still very tightly coupled
read.realityblind.world/view/975731937/195/
38:00: Financial manipulation also create the illusion of decoupling
link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00191-017-0514-8
39:58: Wide boundary thinking
read.realityblind.world/view/975731937/20/
40:56: Nate’s Hagens ~ Economics for the future - Beyond the Superorganism
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800919310067
41:11: Jevons paradox
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox#:~:text=In%20economics%2C%20the%20Jevons%20paradox,rises%20due%20to%20increasing%20demand.
42:42: Energy depletion
www.thegreatsimplification.com/episode/03-arthurberman
43:10: Two categories of technology
read.realityblind.world/view/388478403/143/
47:55: We are at diminishing returns on oil
read.realityblind.world/view/975731937/265/
48:25: The nature of interest requires financial growth
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1057521915001477
49:30: Potential vs Kinetic energy
read.realityblind.world/view/975731937/289/
51:24: Renewable are actually rebuildables
read.realityblind.world/view/975731937/285/
51:50: In 2019 we grew the electricity demand by more than all the solar voltaic capacity ever built
www.iea.org/news/global-electricity-demand-is-growing-faster-than-renewables-driving-strong-increase-in-generation-from-fossil-fuels
52:40: We are using more wood today than we were 100 years ago
www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/7/12/7955/htm
54:45: ER/OI - Energy return on Investments
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_return_on_investment
czcams.com/video/mATjPdV3tcI/video.html
Dynamic EROI of Global Energy System in Future Scenarios of Transition to Renewable Energy
57:33: Intermittence and variability
read.realityblind.world/view/975731937/291/
58:21: Fossil carbons have a higher total system return on investment and is simple for our systems
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301421513003856
59:37: 20% of total global energy is electricity and many things aren’t replaceable by electricity
www.un.org/en/chronicle/article/role-fossil-fuels-sustainable-energy-system
1:00:37: We traded out human labor for mechanical labor, exponentially growing our system
read.realityblind.world/view/975731937/192/
1:04:06: We have underpaid for the core economic input and don’t pay for the negative externalities
www.nature.com/articles/d41586-017-07510-3
1:05:15: Tim Garrett - GDP and CO2 chart
twitter.com/nephologue/status/1455271331902099458
1:06:35: Price difference when adding negative externalities of coal
www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/08/coals-externalities-medical-air-quality-financial-environmental/401075/
Full Cost accounting for life cycle of Coal
1:08:50: 95% of taxes are on human labor
www.untax.org/
1:09:57: Relationship between material consumption and GDP is 1:1 over last 50 years
www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-16941-y
1:10:02: 2lbs of non-renewable materials for every dollar of GDP
unstats.un.org/sdgs/report/2019/goal-12/
1:10:11: An American baby born today will use 3.1 million lbs of non-renewable materials in their lifetime
www.manhattan-institute.org/mines-minerals-and-green-energy-reality-check
read.realityblind.world/view/975731937/202/
mineralseducationcoalition.org/mining-mineral-statistics
1:10:45: Lithium and electric cars
www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/is-there-enough-lithium-to-maintain-the-growth-of-the-lithium-ion-battery-m
1:11:10: Everything made from a barrel of oil
www.energy.gov/articles/hows-and-whys-replacing-whole-barrel
1:13:05: Waste that comes from mining
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780123814753100051
theconversation.com/mine-waste-dams-threaten-the-environment-even-when-they-dont-fail-130770
1:14:55: What it takes to make a computer
scmresearch.org/2018/09/28/the-supply-chain-of-a-computer/
1:15:40: 2022 current events in Taiwan
thehill.com/policy/defense/navy/591015-us-aircraft-carriers-enter-south-china-sea-amid-tensions-between-taiwan
1:17:50: Dick gephardt and advanced policy
www.thegreatsimplification.com/episode/01-dickgephardt
1:18:14: Untax Project
www.untax.org/
Thanks a ton - likely wouldn’t have watched without. But watched it all. Fantastic insight thank you Nate.
If you put these notes in the description and start with “0:00 - intro” CZcams will autogenerate labeled and time stamped chapters
@Nate : You may need to try favoriting or highlighting your comment of timestamps so it ends up at the top and not lost in the sea of comments.
Nate, loving these detailed notes, super helpful, thanks! As Revising the Script notes, put these in the description!
Finished listening to this conversation at 2:50am in China, want to send my deep and heartfelt gratitude to both Daniel and Nate (whom I should've discovered earlier), do feel like my heart and mind is transformed after this, and can't wait for the next one!
I didn't know CZcams was allowed in China. Good to have you here brother.
@@VeritableVagabond it's not (shhh...), but it is great to be here~
Wow you cant use youtube without using a VPN or similar tech? How do you think the US-china relationship plays out over the next few decades? I hope it goes the route of a healthy competition within the non kinetic warfare categories ie. Economic, information, cultural.
My guess is china moves past the US. So many more people and 5-1 engineers.. and overall from my perspective china seems to have a culture that is advantageous to long term growth such as the importance on education and frugality. Our culture has degraded significantly over the past few decades. We celebrate famous people and dont save as much. The American story and ambition seems to have lost it's way.
@@user-by8pu5bx1x what is the consequence of being found using CZcams?
@@Hyumanity I don't actually know.
Bend but not break! The Great Simplification is a wonderful place where all things make common sense.
When you play the yt algorithm right, you end up here. Thank you both for this impactful conversation.
Wow, great to see Daniel amplifying lesser-known voices. I don't know you Nate, but I found this vid because of Daniel. I'll be looking more into you, and the work you do.
Listening to this, absorbing your shared integrity and knowledge, does hold the beauty and the outrage together. Thank you, heartfelt gratitude.
Thank you Nate and Daniel. After watching this podcast, I came across a piece on the Carbon Tracker website on the promise of green energy that claims that wind and solar could provide 100X current energy use on less land than the current fossil fuel industry affects. I stopped short at the following couple of paragraphs:
"The fossil fuel age is over…
The fossil fuel industry cannot compete with the technology learning curves of renewables, so demand will inevitably fall as wind and solar continue to grow. At the current 15-20% growth rates of solar and wind, fossil fuels will be pushed out of the electricity sector by the mid-2030s and out of total energy supply by 2050.
… and we begin a new era
The unlocking of energy reserves 100 times our current demand creates new possibilities for cheaper energy and more local jobs in a more equitable world with far less environmental stress."
Who wouldn't want that? But you have shown clearly that access to huge amounts of cheap energy would accelerate environmental stress (I'd use the terms degradation or destruction instead), not reduce it.
Here's the link to the article, in case anyone wants to see the whole thing: carbontracker.org/reports/the-skys-the-limit-solar-wind/
Changing the price of goods to reflect their true system cost is a very powerful idea. The closer we move toward true cost pricing, the better we will be able as a society, or superorganism, to move toward conservation models of consumption and thoughtful, regenerative growth. This is the idea that needs to spread.
Nate that elevator pitch was solid gold. Absolutely incredible. Well said. You’re a dot connector to da max my man.
New here. Now THIS is a conversation!! I think I may have to listen twice and take notes. Cannot wait for the next three discussions!!
This is really brilliant Nate. This is like a one-stop-shop that covers our current predicament. I met you at ASPO in Lisbon in 2005. So impressed you're maintaining this momentum. Please keep it up.
I came across Nate on the Planet Critical podcast and was aware that he was involved in the Consilience Project with Daniel, so it was an absolute pleasure to find this conversation. This knowledge and big picture thinking deserves a wider audience.
I lead a team in the energy space and am trying to build fundamental awareness of Net Energy and EROEI amongst the other voices there preaching neo-classical GDP models. Your work is impactful, so please keep it up. I am trying to implement a sustainable Integrated Assessment Models (MEDEAS) but the information gulf is so huge that your work is critical for me to build consensus.
Thanks Nate for sharing this wonderful conversation with Daniel. I've been following you both independently for a while now and you could not believe my delight seeing the two of you in one call.
If you haven't heard of him already I would recommend trying to get a conversation with Timothée Parrique. I would say his framework for degrowth/postgrowth that he developed in his PhD would be valuable to discuss upon the transition pathways to the inevitable Great Simplification.
You might begin your search by simplifying your discourse. Too much jargon and buzzwords gets in the way of communication.
Any links to Pariquee?
The end comments made me cry. The question “how to see the world” Thankyou…you make the world and life beautiful.
One of the best conversations I've ever heard.
This expansive and passionate dialog between dedicated, kindred spirits begins the explanation of who we are and where our possible future paths lie based on their shared system understanding of the relationship between increasingly more remote energy/ materials and our growth/ debt based social system.
At 18:52 Nate talks about the Maximum Power Principle and describes it, approximately, as plants dissipates more energy (by lowering the temperature) and those organisms that are most efficient will have an evolutional advantage. I don't mean to critize Nate, but plants do not dissipate more energy, as it is the same amount of sunshine that reaches the forest as the road next to it. The following is how I think about it, for whatever that is worth:
By utilizing the sunshine for evaporation and photosyntesis the residual temperature from the plants will be lower than the temperature above the road, where the solar energy only heats the surface of the road. The difference in temperature approximately reflects the amount of energy plants use for the work. I would think this is the physics underlying the Maximum Power Principle.
@Goran Rudback -you are exactly correct -this was recorded 10pm on Friday night and my neurons were def not at max power. ;-)
Nate, I’ve been following Daniel for years now and am myself in the renewable energy space. This is really a critical and important discussion. I’m so glad I discovered you here and intend to read through all your stuff. Fantastic!
Not even 3 minutes in and you just said EVERYTHING.
"If you aren't outraged, you aren't paying attention." My outrage has been going strong for more than 50 years, starting with the Vietnam War!
Love the work you guys are doing. I really think you have the potential to make this podcast a big deal in the space of broad picture and long overdue thinking and conversations. Much love from Germany.
My brain had just expanded.... and there is no way back!
Quite likely one of the best new channels ever.
These are the conversations we must have! And these are the questions we must answer together! Thank you for another awesome video!
The idea that I can - and maybe should - make a habit of translating the value of a dollar into BTUs is a very useful heuristic for a simple pleb like me.
Thank you Nate. Just discovered you with this talk. Will be following your work.
This is one of the most important conversations of our times. Simply brillant.
Thank you for breaking down the REAL energy flows in the system and what is "glossed over".
I can't get enough of Daniel S. Thank you for this discussion. Happy there are smart, strong minds on all of this.
Agreed!
This a a DOPE HIT! Thank you Nate for hosting D.S. If i could choose to sit down and talk with one peron on this planet that is alive, It would be Daniel!
Awesome Nate and Daniel. Utterly.
Extraordinary. Thank you.
This is a conversation packed with detailed information, spanning many domains, and a huge span of years of human evolution. It's going to take me several rounds to catch everything. Many thanks for the conversation, much appreciated!
Very insightful. Never thought of the energy problem in quite that way. Thank you and please produce more episodes
Wow. What a beautiful conversation. This is like the Don't Look Up movie. But ya know, real life. Really a trip. Thank you for this.
Immensely relieved and grateful to you both for pulling everything in like master fishermen. Definitely the best platter of potential and perspectives being served in this corner of the universe. Thank you.
@Nate, what a fascinating perspective. Your explanation of "energy" as a fundamental currency of measure has already changed the way I look at the behaviors and habits in my own life. Only took 1 hour of listening to this episode! Hats off to you!
For so many people including myself, "energy" can be so abstract and intangible. Often the modern concept of energy is clouded by simplicity of language and lack in knowledge of material systems.
Thank you for this video and being a NEW teacher in my life. Glad you chose Daniel as your first guest because that is what led me here, clever on your part because you two share a similar ethos of life.
One thing that would be great for your channel going forward would be formalizing your goal for your listeners. What is your reason for teaching us this information besides awareness?
Are you simply trying to provide content for the masses? Are you trying to educate those who already pattered through the Nihilistic phases and are coming to light? Are you trying to shape people to be stewards of your information?
As a teacher, what is your objective for us? In the words of Alfred North Whitehead: "What are the aims of education?". Specifically your educating of us.
@Nicholas Porter. What is my goal? To inform and inspire humans towards acting as pilots/beacons to better adapt to coming cultural transition away from material growth - and in doing, change the initial conditions of coming events in some emergent way. We've made some short animated videos as an explanatory backdrop for where we are headed - to The Great Simplification - and why which will be coming soon (first one next week -Energy Blind). The podcast is going to be about explaining and simplifying the many connections between energy/technology/money/growth, human behavior and Earths ecosystems to illuminate which cultural paths are dead ends, which are still open and what actions we can take as a society, as communities and as individuals. To be blunt, I'm much more confident about what won't happen and what can't happen than what will so am trying to build discourse and understanding and grow a community of humans that act as catalysts in their own corners of the world. So, in a sentence, I'm trying to raise awareness, an ethos, and a tribe of people willing to meet the future halfway -if enough people do that we can change the initial conditions of events to come. Daniel and I view the future through different frames (his more technology/AI and mine more ecology/energy) but on this goal we are fully aligned - there needs to be a change in the cultural conversation about our place in history - and that starts with changing the hearts and minds of people. Thanks for your feedback and being keen to learn and change the future.
@@thegreatsimplification I had the same question! I will stay tuned to keep learning more. So excited I came across this 🙏🏽
@@thegreatsimplification I'm lovin these aligned hearts and minds--it's so nice to be understood! From a philosophic, systems, evolutionary, and social sciences perspective, I've been working on a consilience concept that led me to address the inherited barriers to reconciling. Someday I'll make available: "Humanity’s Plague: Predisposed Blindness to the Roots of Destructiveness, Division, and the Barriers to Reconciling".
Dancing our way forward, luv you. Greg
Absolute brilliance. Can't wait for the next episodes
Great video. I call them "replace-ables" now. "Renewables" I think was a PR strategy. "Replaceables" because they do need to be replaced/restored. They don't just "renew" themselves.
It's great to hear these problems and potential solutions articulated so well. It appears our shared symbolic credit system is rapidly disconnecting in relevance from our physical world of energy and materials. Stress is building and when it snaps a huge face melting imbalance will become apparent to everyone. That will be the moment our shared system of credit goes through that singularity of change that's coming. No government or corporate entity will have any meaningful influence over this transition. This is something only the superorganism will be able to deal with. Hopefully the superorganism will be healthy enough when this happens. Thanks to excellent conversations such as this one.
Most people have no idea of what is coming. We have overshot by billions of human beings and I suspect the retracement will be devastating beyond belief. Nature, in the end, will not be cheated.
‘ Hopefully the superorganism will be healthy enough when this happens.’ As George Carlin said “the earth will be fine, it’s us who are (likely) going away”
@@noahbrown4388 It's difficult to see past the singularity coming at us. I agree the point of maximum change during the transition will be devastating for many, well beyond what we currently understand. Humans are not static beings though. It's still possible the superogranism may decide at the last minute that radical change is preferable to self termination.
There was a lot of earnestness on display in this conversation. These guys are obviously intelligent and articulate.
I think it's too late for voluntary solutions. Nature is going to take care of this mess by eliminating most if not all humans in the next 500 years.
... next 500 years... really? How about: in less than 50 years from now?
@@svarog63 I like to leave myself some wiggle room. 😁
Sooner the better if humans are unwilling to live in balance with nature and Mother Earth.
Humans are the coronavirus pandemic currently infecting Mother Earth and making her potentially terminally sick.
How can we design a civilization that incentivizes people like Nate Hagens into positions like Secretary of Energy?
Smart population
Don’t design it, educate it
This is packed with valuable insights and information. I recommend everyone to watch this
Can't wait for part 2, thank you Daniel and Nate! My first time seeing Nate and I see I'm not alone as the sub count was under 2K when I subbed. Hello fellow friends who are seeking to hold both the outrage and appreciation for beauty in equal measure :)
What an incredible discussion. Thank you both for sharing and in this way. Please keep pounding away at this as you are. I will reach out to volunteer. I resonate 100%. Thanks again, I can’t say more how I appreciated both your minds and efforts in this mentoring this necessary change.
Excellent conversation.
I've opted to call the global human collective a "supra-organism optima" rather than a "superorganism" for a few reasons.
First, humanity simply does not fit under the definition of a superorganism because an agent within a superorganism cannot survive outside of the collective for an extended period of time; but a single human can. Granted, it's not an easy task (see Survivor, Naked and Afraid, Alone, Dual Survival, etc.), but humans are capable of surviving alone for extended periods of time.
Second, though humans are capable of surviving alone, we cannot attain a state of self-actualization or self-transcendence without a social unit. We are social creatures and we require a social structure in order to become our best possible selves. This element of humanity is a key ingredient to our existence.
So - that is why I have chosen to use the term "supra-organism optima". We are a social creature that need each other in order to optimize, but not necessarily to survive.
Thank you, thank you, thank you! Really appreciated both your closing comments. Now I understand you even better. Keep going, keep reaching out, keep sharing. Blessings!
Brilliant and engaging! As dense and packed with insight, feeling and meaning, as a great poem… Thanks for what you are both doing.
This is a great conversation. I would like to add, that macro-economics starts with micro-economics. The problem's roots lie in the lifestyles of the people in society. This means that people will have to reduce their industrially made goods because the availability of the resources and cost will dictate this. The question is: Can we live a good life without consuming lots of fossil fuels. Can we have electricity? Can we have heat? Will we have enough food?
Yes. It is possible, and more and more people are doing this. I've been living off grid in the mountains of Vermont for over 5 years now. I heat my home with wood from my 10 acre forest. I only burn already dead wood. I rarely cut live trees. I've learned techniques to grow abundant food using hugelkulture, and permaculture without any fossil fuel imput.
My overall ecological footprint is one fifth (or less) of what it was for me 6 years ago. Interestingly, my expenses have dropped to one fifth of what it was, so I don't have to work that much, (for money), anymore. Less stress, more free time, better food. Its a better life to live simply. If only people knew.
I'd be really happy if our leaders had such a discussion as you had here.
Thanks Daniel and Nate!
Positive Realism and Stoic Optimism are two terms for the sturdy mindsets needed for us Humans whom seek, hope, and wish to understand our collective if not also individual Predicament, THEN working towards finding meaningful & workable solutions going forward - yeah, that's the stuff. Of resilience...
I'm looking forward to this conversation between two of my favorite thinkers.
This s brilliant. Thank you thank you.
One human inspired. Thank you!
I saw your "Earth and Humanity: Myth and Reality" video a couple of weeks back and it blew me away. I lost your channel I guess although I had saved the video and shared to multiple friends. Then this pops up!
Subscribed and excited to see more, keep up the good work.
I love this final point in regards to paralogical thinking that we must "pay attention" to beauty of life so that we can be outraged enough to do something to vernerate and protect it and at the same time honor the moment and not let the outrage over come us. Balancing the opposites is the key here, like most things.
Great talk Nate and Dan, love your work! What we need are "models" for better ways to live, that are all inclusive, but function in, cooperation/congruence with current systems and leaves no one behind. Win, win, win systems that tackle, climate crisis, inequality/poverty, food security, safety, high quality of living for everyone. Solution: A volunteer based system owned, managed and run for and by the people. A veritable Agrarian Altruistic Utopia. I call it Social Democratic Capitalism (SDC) or Socio-economic and Environmental Evolution (SEE). Model 1 is here, let's create more and get them out guys!? Leo Lentz.
😃 Love how you guys practically start and finish each other's sentences!
Can't watch enough of you guys!
Last ten minutes are pure gold. Thank you.
Oh sweet, I do enjoy compersion often and I didn't know it had a word. I also like that it's presented as an alternate to jealousy, like a subversion. Many of us would do well by practicing that actively, especially when we encounter too much competition or jealousy with lacking depth or care between people.
And it's so clarifying that Daniel describes a "meta-crisis", because I've found I need to use terms like that to really articulate the problems I've been working on in my research. One of the areas most important to me is the youth independence crisis, which is an epicenter, a crossroads. A lot of people do not realize how serious this is and how deep it goes. They failed to take it seriously as much as they failed to take social justice as a serious threat. But all is not lost, because post-2020 a lot more people are waking up. Thank you for a great conversation. I took notes and will follow up on some of the resources mentioned.
Thank you Daniel and Nate. Wonderful conversation with many new ideas for me.
I literally have zero people in my personal circle that would be able to digest this conversation. I have no one to talk to about it that would pay attention long enough to understand.
Thank you both for your service. What an important conversation. I'm particularly interested in the comment by Nate in around minute 46 describing solutions for a move into the post-growth era. As it relates to new technologies being introduced, especially Quantum Resource Extraction and Recycling.
This convo is awesome. Humanity is the correct unit of analysis!
Join the rebel alliance! The
Death star is coming.
Sooo much great stuff here. Thank you both for sharing it.
Thank you so much for this conversation. Daniel became a great inspiration for me 18 months ago. I'm so glad that you two are talking. Thank you for helping us all to Brock our perception of what's going on right now.
This was so good! Looking forward to the next one. Thanks you Nate and Daniel
Well hello Nate Hagens. 😃🤚
It’s really quite nice to meet you.
I will certainly follow your work here closely. I’m looking forward to great things. 👍👍
Spot on, best big picture with details discussion available today. Thanks
1:04:15 we're de facto turning billions of barrels of ancient sunlight into microliters of of dopamine and calling that an economic success
Wow that was amazing. Thank you.
Thank you for having this conversation. I really love the idea of completely axing the tax on labor and implementing a heavy tax on consumption instead. Regarding the point toward the end that nations won't be willing to put themselves at a competitive disadvantage by proper pricing via taxation, what about a border adjustment tax as proposed by Citizens' Climate Lobby, the Climate Leadership Council, etc.?
Super discussion! Thanks
Thank you for sharing 🙏🏻❤
Thankyou Nate for your inspirational work. We need a global network of well qualified highly motivated activists like yourself, & the guests you introduce, to somehow impact the decisions of the global power elite & ensure that some of us will survive the global disruption in the decades ahead.
Despite the IPCC output being based upon the best science, it fails to motivate nations to implement (promised) safety measures to slow down the disruption & environmental destruction, & incorporate more alternative clean energy.
Great to see Danial in a conversation with a guy who has more knowledge than he on this particular topic as there's no better interlocutor than Daniel to bore in on the new info he's getting (and undoubtedly absorbing).
What a flock of great videos, Hagens. Suddenly you come out with video guns blazing as if you were the Sundance Kid of energy awareness, almost making me spill my cup of oolong. Lots of energy videos for me to soak in, likely twice. Keep it up, kiddo.
Absolutely brilliant. I've long been aware of the negative externalities. But, I had never thought of it from that angle: the market is operating what would be unprofitable if they had to pay for all the externalities.
Nate Hagens! I was a big fan of his writing on the Oil Drum (I think that was the name) back in the mid naughts. Always had a sense this is a guy that really cares.
That was fab! What minds you have. There are so many insightful gems all the way to the end, even though some of us (like me) will find some niche language difficult until we have learned more. I think there are actually many of us waking to this need to find and plan the bend. But I’m concluding that, because of the imperative of the super-organism, we will have to organise and network for local, interconnected resilience from below now. Because the ecological impacts including GHGs, will now dictate events, and the humans most invested in the super organism will be the last to let go.
This is exceptional. Worth multiple listens. By everyone.
Amazing. So many insights from this! Will go through this slowly
Thanks for putting this out Nate. I have to pause every few minutes to think about what is being said, and it will likely take a me a few weeks to begin to have a grasp somewhat you're saying. I had never heard of Daniel Schumachtenberger, but he is now on a list of thinkers I need to look at. Thank you for bringing this energy perspective to the conversation. I am not sure there is an implementable solution to our human predicament, but I am reasonably sure that any solution which ignores energy will fail. Maybe your illumination of the problem will help better minds than mine work towards a solution.
I do that too! I've been listening to Daniel for several years now, and think he is the most perspicacious thinker of our time. You must check out his interviews on the Rebel Wisdom channel. This my first intro to Nate and I am very appreciative of his ability to describe in a fairly simple way, the Energy Blindness phenomenon.
Wanna share lists? 🙂
@@barbcarbon9440 I offer Tyson Yunkaporta and Yuval Harari...
@@barbcarbon9440 Sure! Steven Pinker and Johnathon Haidt profoundly changed the way I think about how humans work. Robert Sapolsky and Richard Dawkins helped me develop a rudimentary understanding of biology. E.O. Wilson and the evolutionary psychologists that came after revolutionized how I think about evolution. I haven't read even a fraction of what all these guys have written, but they all changed how I view the world in some way or another. Your turn.
Great video. I’ve seen a cost of carbon capture and storage of $1k a ton. So that’s a $39 trillion liability missing from the global balance sheet per year.
Thanks Nate. I will check this and the other uploads later today.
Energetic conversation! After listening to you guys, I have more energy than before, you count as one of the good sources. Embrace from Buenos Aires, following up both, and ready to help spreading your nutritive interchanges. Thank you.
I've been following daniels work very closely, trying to get my own mind around the complexity and distill it for others. Thanks for the great take on energy, that put a few pieces together in my mind. That's what it's all about - amplifying the message.
Great conversation! Thank you
Amazing conversation! I am now following you both.
Thank you both for this important talk
This was a great talk between you guys and you covered so much good stuff. Hope to see more of these conversations between the two of you soon
Wow, is right. Being privy to these kinds of conversations is the only reason I am still connected to this web.
You’ve inspired this human ❤️
This is beyond insightful
Nate ran through Vaclav Smil's work in a concise and eloquent burst. Oddly, it seems as though educated people from 1900 onwards haven't had energy in the forefront of their minds. Of course, the players always have understood the marriage of energy and technology. Certainly, it's of foremost importance for ordinary people in their daily lives whether they recognize it or not. Our clique attends the same libraries. How do we make more people thirst for crucial, mundane knowledge? Expanding our culture will take generations, and there will always be obstacles. I am reminded of Karl R. Popper's "The Open Society & Its Enemies." If Plato were here now, he might not initially understand our energy systems or technology, but he would surely find the discourse excruciatingly familiar.
I love my gas guzzler trucks and I burn firewood to heat my home - you like all that?