I've learned that toxic family is my thorn in my flesh.. it keeps me humble, dependant on God, seeking Him for wisdom and strength, and battling in the challenge of loving but setting boundaries and limits with sin towards me and others.
Same here. I’m not old enough to move out and I just got saved, but all my family members here aren’t saved. It’s hard to be around them without getting caught up in the temptation to act like them (because that’s how I used to live) It’s very hard, and it’s caused me to backslide. Not putting the blame on anyone but myself, but it makes it a lot more difficult to resist sin :(
I can relate to this because a few months ago l found out that my father was cheating on my mom. My mom and the rest of the family are Christian but am not sure about my father though am the only one who knows about it and l don’t know what to do but l will keep praying that he will be convicted and repent
This is a great help to have seen and come across. Because of this, I now can stand firm in my faith when a family member may try to justify themselves with the smallest knowledge of scriptures used just to counter my rebukes. Unfortunate that people want to try to use God’s Word to do such things, and even worse that my own family is liable to do that, but I’m not going to stand for the misuse of God’s Word, and if my own family won’t hear His Word then I’m going to limit seeing them. 🤔😅
This video sadly depicts my family please pray for all of them my father claims that there is no future beyond grave but other day he goes to christ to ask money from him without repentance of alcohol aduletry and swearing GODs holy name LORD JESUS CHRIST SON OF GOD PLEASE HELP THEM AMEN☦️✝️
I’m 18, still living with my mom, 2 brothers and younger sister. My mom is a Christian, I believe that, but has seemingly fallen out of good Christian disciplines. She doesn’t fellowship with other believers, I don’t think she reads her Bible or prays, spends massive amounts of time on social media, curses consistently. I’m at a loss as to if I should confront and correct her or not. I don’t want to be someone with a log pointing at a speck. I don’t pretend to be perfect, i struggle with self discipline as much as the next believer; but idk if I am at a place where correction is okay. I also must consider that her bad habits are having a negative impact on my 8 year old sister. My mom allows her to spend numerous hours a day on her IPad. This has led to my sisters addiction to her IPad, and also indulgence in content that is troubling (tho my mom doesn’t seem to see that). Idk what to do, and even if no one reads this comment I’m just glad to have a place to share my feelings.
I have come to bring division, 2 shall be divided against 3, and 3 against 2, father against son and mother against daughter, mother in law against daughter in law.
I think as a Christ follower you pray about all situations. Unrepentant means that they boldly and vengefully continue on a path of engaging in sinful ways. Check the spirits and check fruit but judge not and love God and people. Be an example of a person of faith people look up to.
When it's a parent, it's more difficult...where does honoring your parents come in? The relationship complicates things because it may not be appropriate and may dishonor your parent if you should try to hold them accountable. I've been told that although we are not called to obey them our entire life, we are commanded to honor them, no matter our age.
I've taught my children thr difference between honour and obedience. A child can righteously refuse to obey thr parent if what the parent is asking them to do is against God's law, but even then they must do it with respect as to the position they have over them. I've also taught them they may disagree with my beliefs, but they must respect me in mine. Mocking to scorn or talking behind my back is not acceptable. Hope that helps.
@@toddcote4904 thank you! Do you think this also extends to the matter of church discipline? That someone other than the child should be the one to confront the parent with their sin?
@@emmyty I think the answer is "it depends". Since scripture doesn't clearly give an answer to your question, wisdom needs to be used to guide us. Remember "church discipline" starts with a brother, then 2 or 3 brothers, then the whole congregation. Here's some thoughts to consider. As to the age of the child and what they understand as sinful actions. Children don't always understand the context of adult situations, such as a father yelling. Perhaps the child thinks yelling is sinful, but not realizing the father was raising his voice because he had to for his or his family's safety. As to the nature of the sin, such as drunkenness, adultery, or something more violent like robbery or murder. The safety of the child needs to be considered if the parent is likely to retaliate. As to whom the sin was committed. Was it to them or to someone else? In a loving relationship the parents ought to be above reproach, and humble enough to listen to their child's concerns. If the child is confronting their parents it still needs to be done in a respectful way, not a holier than thou kind-a way. Another option would be for the child to tell the other parent what they saw or heard. Also, I think the principle of Mathew 18 should be held together with Micah 6:8. Do justice, love mercy, walk humbly with your God. The point being is that both the justice and mercy must be rooted in our humility before a holy God. If we seek justice or mercy without being humble, we're prone to legalism or permisivism where anything goes. Sin must be dealt with. This is clear from both the OT and the NT. However, before we go in for justice, we must realize what Jesus taught; "whatever way you judge another, you will be held to the same standard". Do we desire mercy? Than let us be merciful. Do we desire justice, than let us extend justice to others. For we are judged according to our own actions of mercy and justice towards others.
I’m looking to understand the balance between forgiving those who don’t deserve it as God does, and yet knowing when to break off from someone permanently. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
The purpose of breaking off or stopping associating with people who call themselves Christians yet live in sin is to bring them to an understanding of the seriousness of their sin. If they repent, we rejoice and welcome them back. Repentance is turning away from the sinful behavior.
Yeah because people won't look upon it the same if it's family. The non believers I'm referring too.🤔.. I sure struggled with this . Especially since my mother goes to a church that embraces homosexuality not just the sinner but they justify their sin. However she knows where I stand and now she pretty much stays away from me . I told my mom that If she continues to align herself with it she's no different, so yeah she sees me and hugs me but acts guilty at the same time. She'd rather I stay away. Sad because she didn't feel this way when I struggled in being attracted to the same sex. I've since been delivered and the root was her neglect in my life and the abandonment of my sisters as well. I feel so grossed out by sexual sins . Not the sinner but like them telling me things. 🤮.. I just can't hear it unless they are actually going to turn from it and they're crying over it. That's different, but my bf was talking about it like she was glorifying it and I had to cut her away for now .😒
Praying for you to endure in the faith and for your family to come to the full truth . it can be tough at times and wear at you but never compromise on Gods truth .
These un-repentant folks have convinced themselves they are the exception, and chase you to convince you of such. They involve themselves forcefully in our lives believing they are supported by Christ in this decision. A form of Narcissism they choose to live in allows them to keep making the same "mistake", they refuse to believe after the first time it's not a mistake. It's a deliberate decision to keep on sinning and call it something else. They just lie to your face, their moral center has been seared out by their own conscious. They are beholding to demons who they think help them. They are part of our daily suffering and testing, how we treat them and the limit of contact. We still have to hope the Holy Spirit will do a work in them, all the while treating them sub-human to the extreme trying to get them to be real with themselves. It's a hard task assigned to faithful followers.
This is such a huge issue!! Not just about sexually immoral issues. But your in the same church, and it's not just blatant sin. Its watching terrible parenting, the father putting terrible shows on for kids?? Not loving their kids, not teaching them about God. Then they are at church with their hands up worshipping??
Wow! I was reading this scripture before and actually meant to share it with my husband. My son is actually living with his girlfriend and they are Christian. My daughter is living with her boyfriend but shes not Christian. So am I supposed to allow my unsaved daughter to come to my house, but not my saved son? Im not being disagreeable, Im sincerely asking. Thank you.
Even tho we live in the largest nation of people that call themselves believers but also live in the greedy est nation made up of individuals that's never receive this rebuke of disfellowship
Please i want to ask a question sir/ ma is there anyone?, the question is this i live Currently with my elder sister in Nigeria, i am learning plumbing as a occupation but my boss teaching me do steal in a place his service is needed as a plumber,but my boss do say he takes there things because the money they do pay him for his service is small,and am afraid am sinning to God,because i dont know if somehow i have collected from him money that he acquire through what he stole, please sir / ma should i leave the work?
I’m going through this with my mom. She’s “dating” (whatever they call it) and preparing to marry a man who has been divorced FOUR times. I’ve moved out of the home and I’ve told her I will not have anything to do with what’s going on between them. Still love her as my mother, but I cannot and will not have a part in this and make them feel like I’m accepting of it and willing to be part of this sin they’re preparing to do. He says he’s a Christian and making real changes in his life, but it’s still a sin and my mom refuses to see it that way, keeps justifying it and I think she thinks with time I’ll come around. I will not, and I’ve made that abundantly clear to her. This is wrong on many levels.
I feel for you. Im in a similar boat with my cousin and her daughter, both engaged to men they have been living in sin with for quite some time. My cousin even allowed herself to get pregnant by this guy. It makes me cry. They both try to justify it with nonsense when the scriptures quite plainly labels their sin for what it is. I will not be attending their weddings nor even spend any time with them unless they truly repent and come back to Jesus. I will not be around and pretend I am okay with the way they habitually dishonor and rebel against God.
Nate, I think your heart actually is in the right places but I think you missed some important things. 1) I Cor 5:11 is just the very last step of a church discipline program Jesus initiated in Mat18:15-17. You did stp one and confronted her, but there are still 2 more steps prior to shunnig you are not authorized to skip. You need a arrange a second private intervention with a second person she would recognize as authorative, maybe her pastor. Third if this fails the pastor has to schedule a church trial to confront her with her sin and give her a chance to defend herself. Only if this fails is shunning authorized. You don't know this because you have never seen this because the church abandoned proper practice several generations ago. If you shortcut the steps, you vastly reduce the chance of this working. 2) You may be wrong about her sinning for the best of reasons. Now a 4 times divorced guy should be looked at skeptically, but you may not properly understand the passage you think she is guilty of. Please watch this video before you condemn her. czcams.com/video/aVY7S2UOd1s/video.html&ab_channel=MessianicTorahObservantIsrael It is not the popular interpretation of these passages but it seems linguistically sound and ethically makes more sense. Getting them both to go for sound pastoral premarital counseling might still be wise.
If he got saved after his divorces, he is a new man. Give him a Jesus break. My good friend has been married 4 or 5 times. First 2 divorce. Third death. Fourth just married. I know he loves the Lord. He has made bad decisions, hasn't listened to God. But he is still in the faith trying and believing. Mercy on him. I love him in Christ. I think finally he learned his lesson and married a godly woman. People make mistakes. Are divorcees too dirty for you? There is a woman at the well who Jesus saved. He was not too good for her.
My aunt and my cousin, who means very much to me, both live in sexual sin with men they are not married to. I have tried time and time again to make them see the error in their ways. They become angry when I do so. My cousin wont even talk to me at all anymore, she pretends I dont exist and has broken off contact with me. They are both "engaged" to these guys so not only do I face the problem of not associating with them because of their sin life but soon I am going to have to confront them about the issue of their marriages and how I will not attend them unless they are genuine acts of repentance in order to get right with God. Thats assuming I even get invited in the first place, I dont think I will.
It’s not your job to correct them . Especially if they are not believers. If they are believers they would already know better so it’s simply up to you to pray . It’s the Holy Spirit that will convict them . It works the same with adult children . But out of their lives and let God work on them and pray.the Holy Spirit is way better at this stuff than you or I’ll ever be.
@@flowerpower3618 So you believe in a "soft" gospel that doesn't confront sin? The scriptures are clear that we must confront sin in a believers life. See 1 Cor 5 and Mat 18 You don't have any biblical support for your position.
@@toddcote4904 if they are living with someone they aren’t a Christian. But no I don’t believe in a soft gospel. My response was to remind the original poster that it is not up to her to nag . It’s the HS that convicts of sin . Also we do not need to carry the burden of constant worry , we continually pray and leave it at the Lord’s feet. That is all. I hope that clears it up. Have a good day.
@@flowerpower3618 My point stands, you quoted nothing from the scripture to support yourself. What do you think the gospel is, "Jesus loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life"? Why do you think all the Apostles were killed, for saying "Jesus loves you"? Or was it because they called people to repentance from their sin, BECAUSE THEY WERE SINNING?
Sometimes that's not really necessary. My sister in law is "married" to a woman and they both are "pastors" in a church. A few months ago we got a card of the other woman having a daughter from a sperm donor and apparently they're all happy about it (my sister in law had the same thing like two years ago). So we might as well save ourselves the trouble and pain. And yes, they are not disciplined by their own church, we had to do that ourselves.
Hi, my wife suffers from complex trauma/ cptsd. This effects our marraige as she uses lies, deception, manipulation, emotional betrayal and the lot to "hide" and avoid emotional intimacy, sincerity and transparency. That in itself is abuse to me! She is unrepentant to commit and journey whole heartedly with any counselor. The marriage itself is traumatic, chaotic frustrating to journey and piece life together with her wilfully not able to or wanting to be present. Can I divorce her?
"6/10/10 From YahuShua HaMashiach, Our Lord and Savior The Word of The Lord Spoken to Timothy For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear (Regarding unbelieving family members) My sons and daughters, what is trust with abandonment? What is obedience without expectation? Is not your reasonable service love without condition? Yet I tell you the truth, trust is more than letting go. For it remains standing that it must also be shown in your obedience and by your example, and by your willingness to never deny My name, no matter the time or the season. Beloved, place your loved ones in My hands, as I have said, for at no time were they forsaken. For I am the gate for all My sheep, and they also will hear My voice in the day they are humbled, the day their hearts crack and their pride crumbles... And oh what a cry shall be heard, oh what wailing shall come forth. Yet are you not also My hands and My feet, My voice, a testimony and a lamentation bearing witness of Me? Therefore, again I say to you, do not deny My name to please others or because of fear. Make no effort to keep the peace for their sakes. Rather as it is written: Proclaim My words; be instant in and out of season. Reprove, rebuke and exhort, with all long-suffering, according to that which I have shown you. For one who truly loves Me speaks about Me, and remains faithful at all times and in every season. And one who places Me above all else has shown their loved ones who is first, and what faithfulness truly is. For there is no true love apart from Me; nor can one remain faithful unless they have received of Me. Therefore to speak of Me in the Company of others is to love them... And to deny Me in the company Of others is to hate them, Whereby you have also revealed that Your comfort is of more importance than The Truth, and keeping the peace More important than their lives... Says The Lord." www.thevolumesoftruth.com/Be_Instant_In_and_Out_of_Season
Actually Jesus bothered with the Pharisees quite a bit because they were claiming to be believers, but I Cor 5 is clear that church discipline is not for clear non-believers.
Read about his first public appearance in the gospels. He flipped over the tables with all the gold abs silver they collected from the people. He then called them hypocrites and was angry that turned HIS place of worship into a marketplace. The only reason the Pharisees were mad (according to my understanding of the gospels) was because he said “My pace of worship.” He claimed he was god and they later sight to kill him because of it.
This is exactly what eventually led to him being killed. He completely embarrassed the Pharisees in front of all their followers and they sought to kill him because of it. Your first sentence shows a complete lack of understanding to the gospels. Do you even know WHY he was killed?
@@nicholasclarke8182 That's a good question. I've asked myself the same thing... David also. I wonder why the Lord seems to have blessed both his marriages. Must be something I don't understand.
King Solomon and king David were both punished for what they did. Imagine how kind Solomon felt looking into his son's eyes knowing the destruction that he has brought on his child in the future....terrible feeling to be stuck with. As for the people , they told Solomon a earful I guarantee it, David to. As King David approached Bahurim,(A) a man from the same clan as Saul’s family came out from there. His name was Shimei(B) son of Gera, and he cursed(C) as he came out. 6 He pelted David and all the king’s officials with stones, though all the troops and the special guard were on David’s right and left. 7 As he cursed, Shimei said, “Get out, get out, you murderer, you scoundrel! 8 The Lord has repaid you for all the blood you shed in the household of Saul, in whose place you have reigned.(D) The Lordhas given the kingdom into the hands of your son Absalom. You have come to ruin because you are a murderer!”(E) 9 Then Abishai(F) son of Zeruiah said to the king, “Why should this dead dog(G) curse my lord the king? Let me go over and cut off his head.”(H) 10 But the king said, “What does this have to do with you, you sons of Zeruiah?(I) If he is cursing because the Lord said to him, ‘Curse David,’ who can ask, ‘Why do you do this?’”(J) 11 David then said to Abishai and all his officials, “My son,(K) my own flesh and blood, is trying to kill me. How much more, then, this Benjamite! Leave him alone; let him curse, for the Lord has told him to.
@@nicholasclarke8182 God also never allowed Saul to have all of those wives, we have free will in this life and we can choose what we want to do, but God punished Solomon for what he did.
Not necessarily. One can ostracize another with scornful looks and a cold shoulder, or they can do so with a grieving, firm, yet hopeful approach. It is a delicate balance that's impossible to get right without Christ.
@@redpillfreedom6692 Well I'm doing it with my sister right now. Not that I won't be in the same room with her. I'm just giving her space and am not acting like everything is as it was before, because it's not. Not until she repents.
Get Christian counseling. You can separate in abuse. For the sake of peace. Read the book, "When to Walk Away". Gary Thomas. I have two friends in same situation. These two ladies stay but no serving the Lord. Just their husbands.
@@candicec6513 there has been many years of regular and Christian counselling and courses. If I were to guess, likely 8-10 counsellors on the period of 13 years each one helping us between 2months and 1 year each. But will check out this book, thankyou 😊
Abuse isn't a marriage problem. Its a character problem in the person committing abuse. That person needs to get help first before you can work on the marriage.
Actually this was Jesus' idea. See Mat 18:15-17. It replaced the Old Testament practice of stoning people to death for the same offenses. Seems pretty progressive. It is called restorative justice.
@@ryfidelity7854 your right I don't search the bible for specific text or passage, in order to discriminate against people. Jesus came to save sinners. Its not knowledge of the bible that saves , but faith in Jesus
@@johnbreitmeier3268 Mathew 18.32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him O though wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou had compassion on thy fellow servant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not everyone his brother their trespasses. Jesus came not to condemn the world but to save it, to pay a ransom for many. If we forgive others their sins we shall be forgiven ours. In the passage you pointed to Jesus tells us to treat the sinner like a pagan or tax collector, not like a scribe or pharisee. Jesus saved his fiercest rebukes for those who appeared to whorship God but had no mercy. I'm not saying restorative justice isn't good, but surely to forgive is better
@@peskymogwai7742 If you think the Word of God is discriminating against people then you might want to examine yourself on why you think that or how you would feel if the situation actually was discriminating, according to the opinions of modern day society. The Bible speaks for itself, and it has particular orders and a way of doing things that God knows will work out best for us. There is Church order/roles, marital order/roles, marital authority, parental order/roles, parental discipline, Church discipline, divine discipline, etc. Grace by Faith is what saves, but if the faith you have is a saving faith then it will produce good works, fruit, and the desire to want to obey Him. NOT to disobey Him because you have a problem with authority and think high of yourself.
John piper’s been in the ministry for decades. It’s both humble and wise to be very slow in assuming the worst of him or leveling an accusation against him! I am curious to ask this though: are there any specific verses from the Bible which make you believe he’s wrong about this?
Unfortunately he often is. I have gone through maybe 20 of his videos and might have agreed with one. He may have pastored for decades but he doesn't appear to know the Bible well and knows sound doctrine even less well. He has invented his own theological system called Christian Hedonism which is not a good sign. I haven' t yet checked to see if he has completely abandoned the Gospel but he has greatly modified it and misundersttod it. He leans heavily on his own understandind.
John Pipers Reformed Theology IS BLASPHEMY because it impugns and assaults the good, just and merciful nature and character of the GOD of the Bible. Heresy is defined as any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs, in particular the accepted beliefs of a church or religious organization. Whereas, Blasphemy is an insult that shows contempt, disrespect, or lack of reverence concerning a deity, a sacred object, or something considered inviolable. . God plainly says. "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” That is the character he has revealed in Scripture. God is making it clear that He doesn't have to have mercy on any one but He has decided to have mercy on the whole human race and have compassion on the whole human race. God again reinforces this fact in 1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. Those that don't see this, can't see this, because they have blinded themselves and will not see. There isn't one thing attractive about the Calvinist god. Hate, destruction, false salvation by lottery, pleasure in creating and forcing sin on the World. Calvin's god actually condemns people to false salvation. It is forcing you against your will and then making you think it was your idea.That is the description of rape. Calvinists convinced of their lottery win, then go out and teach people that they and everyone else have no free will! How could it be your idea?? It sounds like organized insanity when you are not in the Calvinist organizations. John Piper IS Satans agent masquerading as a teacher of light! Read this quote of John Piper from his web site and you decide if this is your god he is describing... " God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes-as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem-God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child . "
@@Lexrolla-1 Sometimes the Truth hurts those who follow false teachers. Do you follow the man "John Piper" John MacAurthur, Spugeon, Sprould and their like. I listen to God's message through Matthew Mark Luke and John, but I do not follow them. I follow Jesus and Jesus alone. Everything I put into the text is true, it is only false to those who are blinded by its light.
@@truth7416 maybe that's the problem....you follow the lord through matthew,mark Luke and John....completely negating the influence and power of the holy spirit for guidance, discernment and understanding of all things...whom without you are poor dumb naked and blind stumbling through the scriptures...and life... in the dark...I emplore you to take a good hard look at that fact..
@@Lexrolla-1 Calvin didn't use the power of the Holy Spirit to guide him in writing The Institutes of the Christian Religion. If anything he plagarized Augustine.
Just imagine the scene, God is sitting on his throne and he is reading out every uncharitable deed and thought you have ever had, it will take a long time to read out the sins of every person who has ever lived regardless of whether they had ever heard of this Middle Eastern God or not. This God has a book with all of this written in it, if he is all knowing and all powerful he would not need a book, it would all be in his head, Finally he gets to you and you are summoned up before him, you have been a good Christian and God passes sentence, ENTER THE GATES OF HEAVEN! Straight away you notice that your parents and all the people you loved on Earth were judged differently and they are being thrown into a fiery torture pit, but that is OK because you have made it and after all it is all about YOU, Happy days, excepting that an eternity of being a goody two shoes will not be all that appealing. Now that Gods great experiment is over he might become bored with all the residents of Heaven and will have to invent a new game to play in the universe, maybe the new game will be as horrific as his last venture, more wars, famine, crime and droughts to test his subjects, who knows? This God is so capricious that your new home in Heaven might be worse than Hell, How could anyone who has any education at all believe any of this religious nonsense? BUT YOU DO !! and your one shot at a good life is spent down on your knees grovelling to something that does not, and has never existed. The mind boggles at such utter stupidity ! ! !
I've learned that toxic family is my thorn in my flesh.. it keeps me humble, dependant on God, seeking Him for wisdom and strength, and battling in the challenge of loving but setting boundaries and limits with sin towards me and others.
the problem is... while living under the same roof, with people living contrary to scripture, is a serious damage to my faith...
Are you of legal age to move out
I recommend moving out if its at all possible.
Same here. I’m not old enough to move out and I just got saved, but all my family members here aren’t saved. It’s hard to be around them without getting caught up in the temptation to act like them (because that’s how I used to live) It’s very hard, and it’s caused me to backslide. Not putting the blame on anyone but myself, but it makes it a lot more difficult to resist sin :(
@@azlinnsharp7885 same , I try to keep myself distant as much as I can.
@@azlinnsharp7885 Yes, but that is not the point here. Paul explicitly says you did not have to shun non-Christians for not acting like Christians.
Keep praying and tranforming yourself for your family 🙏👊😀
I can relate to this because a few months ago l found out that my father was cheating on my mom. My mom and the rest of the family are Christian but am not sure about my father though am the only one who knows about it and l don’t know what to do but l will keep praying that he will be convicted and repent
I hope you confronted him gracefully but with boldness because that's very dangerous and even involves health risks for your Mother.
Pray for those family members that's the best thing you can do let God take care of it.
This is a great help to have seen and come across. Because of this, I now can stand firm in my faith when a family member may try to justify themselves with the smallest knowledge of scriptures used just to counter my rebukes.
Unfortunate that people want to try to use God’s Word to do such things, and even worse that my own family is liable to do that, but I’m not going to stand for the misuse of God’s Word, and if my own family won’t hear His Word then I’m going to limit seeing them. 🤔😅
This video sadly depicts my family please pray for all of them my father claims that there is no future beyond grave but other day he goes to christ to ask money from him without repentance of alcohol aduletry and swearing GODs holy name LORD JESUS CHRIST SON OF GOD PLEASE HELP THEM AMEN☦️✝️
I’m 18, still living with my mom, 2 brothers and younger sister. My mom is a Christian, I believe that, but has seemingly fallen out of good Christian disciplines. She doesn’t fellowship with other believers, I don’t think she reads her Bible or prays, spends massive amounts of time on social media, curses consistently. I’m at a loss as to if I should confront and correct her or not. I don’t want to be someone with a log pointing at a speck. I don’t pretend to be perfect, i struggle with self discipline as much as the next believer; but idk if I am at a place where correction is okay.
I also must consider that her bad habits are having a negative impact on my 8 year old sister. My mom allows her to spend numerous hours a day on her IPad. This has led to my sisters addiction to her IPad, and also indulgence in content that is troubling (tho my mom doesn’t seem to see that).
Idk what to do, and even if no one reads this comment I’m just glad to have a place to share my feelings.
I have come to bring division, 2 shall be divided against 3, and 3 against 2, father against son and mother against daughter, mother in law against daughter in law.
THis is the truth.
Praise Jesus!! ✝️🙌🙌🙌
Thank you♥️
I think as a Christ follower you pray about all situations. Unrepentant means that they boldly and vengefully continue on a path of engaging in sinful ways. Check the spirits and check fruit but judge not and love God and people. Be an example of a person of faith people look up to.
When it's a parent, it's more difficult...where does honoring your parents come in? The relationship complicates things because it may not be appropriate and may dishonor your parent if you should try to hold them accountable. I've been told that although we are not called to obey them our entire life, we are commanded to honor them, no matter our age.
I've taught my children thr difference between honour and obedience.
A child can righteously refuse to obey thr parent if what the parent is asking them to do is against God's law, but even then they must do it with respect as to the position they have over them.
I've also taught them they may disagree with my beliefs, but they must respect me in mine. Mocking to scorn or talking behind my back is not acceptable.
Hope that helps.
@@toddcote4904 thank you! Do you think this also extends to the matter of church discipline? That someone other than the child should be the one to confront the parent with their sin?
@@emmyty
I think the answer is "it depends". Since scripture doesn't clearly give an answer to your question, wisdom needs to be used to guide us. Remember "church discipline" starts with a brother, then 2 or 3 brothers, then the whole congregation.
Here's some thoughts to consider.
As to the age of the child and what they understand as sinful actions. Children don't always understand the context of adult situations, such as a father yelling. Perhaps the child thinks yelling is sinful, but not realizing the father was raising his voice because he had to for his or his family's safety.
As to the nature of the sin, such as drunkenness, adultery, or something more violent like robbery or murder. The safety of the child needs to be considered if the parent is likely to retaliate.
As to whom the sin was committed. Was it to them or to someone else?
In a loving relationship the parents ought to be above reproach, and humble enough to listen to their child's concerns. If the child is confronting their parents it still needs to be done in a respectful way, not a holier than thou kind-a way. Another option would be for the child to tell the other parent what they saw or heard.
Also, I think the principle of Mathew 18 should be held together with Micah 6:8.
Do justice, love mercy, walk humbly with your God.
The point being is that both the justice and mercy must be rooted in our humility before a holy God. If we seek justice or mercy without being humble, we're prone to legalism or permisivism where anything goes.
Sin must be dealt with. This is clear from both the OT and the NT. However, before we go in for justice, we must realize what Jesus taught; "whatever way you judge another, you will be held to the same standard". Do we desire mercy? Than let us be merciful. Do we desire justice, than let us extend justice to others. For we are judged according to our own actions of mercy and justice towards others.
@@toddcote4904 thank you for taking the time to share your perspective with me!
@@emmyty
You're welcome.
I’m looking to understand the balance between forgiving those who don’t deserve it as God does, and yet knowing when to break off from someone permanently. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Bless you. This is such a challenge 🙏
The purpose of breaking off or stopping associating with people who call themselves Christians yet live in sin is to bring them to an understanding of the seriousness of their sin. If they repent, we rejoice and welcome them back. Repentance is turning away from the sinful behavior.
Yeah because people won't look upon it the same if it's family. The non believers I'm referring too.🤔.. I sure struggled with this . Especially since my mother goes to a church that embraces homosexuality not just the sinner but they justify their sin. However she knows where I stand and now she pretty much stays away from me . I told my mom that If she continues to align herself with it she's no different, so yeah she sees me and hugs me but acts guilty at the same time. She'd rather I stay away. Sad because she didn't feel this way when I struggled in being attracted to the same sex. I've since been delivered and the root was her neglect in my life and the abandonment of my sisters as well. I feel so grossed out by sexual sins . Not the sinner but like them telling me things. 🤮.. I just can't hear it unless they are actually going to turn from it and they're crying over it. That's different, but my bf was talking about it like she was glorifying it and I had to cut her away for now .😒
Praying for you to endure in the faith and for your family to come to the full truth . it can be tough at times and wear at you but never compromise on Gods truth .
@Princess Studyyes I will ,pray for my family and loved ones to believe truth as well please
Agree too disagree 😘😊
Lil Winged I’m sorry you’ve been brainwashed
Body of Christ pls lift a prayer up for my family to not be lukewarm or carnal christians including myself. Pls and thank you.
These un-repentant folks have convinced themselves they are the exception, and chase you to convince you of such. They involve themselves forcefully in our lives believing they are supported by Christ in this decision. A form of Narcissism they choose to live in allows them to keep making the same "mistake", they refuse to believe after the first time it's not a mistake. It's a deliberate decision to keep on sinning and call it something else. They just lie to your face, their moral center has been seared out by their own conscious. They are beholding to demons who they think help them. They are part of our daily suffering and testing, how we treat them and the limit of contact. We still have to hope the Holy Spirit will do a work in them, all the while treating them sub-human to the extreme trying to get them to be real with themselves. It's a hard task assigned to faithful followers.
This is such a huge issue!! Not just about sexually immoral issues. But your in the same church, and it's not just blatant sin. Its watching terrible parenting, the father putting terrible shows on for kids?? Not loving their kids, not teaching them about God. Then they are at church with their hands up worshipping??
Jesus said He came to break up families, how? By telling the hard truth. Family member sinning must tell them
Wow! I was reading this scripture before and actually meant to share it with my husband.
My son is actually living with his girlfriend and they are Christian.
My daughter is living with her boyfriend but shes not Christian.
So am I supposed to allow my unsaved daughter to come to my house, but not my saved son?
Im not being disagreeable, Im sincerely asking. Thank you.
Even tho we live in the largest nation of people that call themselves believers but also live in the greedy est nation made up of individuals that's never receive this rebuke of disfellowship
Please i want to ask a question sir/ ma is there anyone?, the question is this i live Currently with my elder sister in Nigeria, i am learning plumbing as a occupation but my boss teaching me do steal in a place his service is needed as a plumber,but my boss do say he takes there things because the money they do pay him for his service is small,and am afraid am sinning to God,because i dont know if somehow i have collected from him money that he acquire through what he stole, please sir / ma should i leave the work?
I’m going through this with my mom. She’s “dating” (whatever they call it) and preparing to marry a man who has been divorced FOUR times. I’ve moved out of the home and I’ve told her I will not have anything to do with what’s going on between them. Still love her as my mother, but I cannot and will not have a part in this and make them feel like I’m accepting of it and willing to be part of this sin they’re preparing to do. He says he’s a Christian and making real changes in his life, but it’s still a sin and my mom refuses to see it that way, keeps justifying it and I think she thinks with time I’ll come around. I will not, and I’ve made that abundantly clear to her. This is wrong on many levels.
I respect your convictions and setting of boundaries
I feel for you. Im in a similar boat with my cousin and her daughter, both engaged to men they have been living in sin with for quite some time. My cousin even allowed herself to get pregnant by this guy. It makes me cry. They both try to justify it with nonsense when the scriptures quite plainly labels their sin for what it is. I will not be attending their weddings nor even spend any time with them unless they truly repent and come back to Jesus. I will not be around and pretend I am okay with the way they habitually dishonor and rebel against God.
Nate, I think your heart actually is in the right places but I think you missed some important things. 1) I Cor 5:11 is just the very last step of a church discipline program Jesus initiated in Mat18:15-17. You did stp one and confronted her, but there are still 2 more steps prior to shunnig you are not authorized to skip. You need a arrange a second private intervention with a second person she would recognize as authorative, maybe her pastor. Third if this fails the pastor has to schedule a church trial to confront her with her sin and give her a chance to defend herself. Only if this fails is shunning authorized. You don't know this because you have never seen this because the church abandoned proper practice several generations ago. If you shortcut the steps, you vastly reduce the chance of this working.
2) You may be wrong about her sinning for the best of reasons. Now a 4 times divorced guy should be looked at skeptically, but you may not properly understand the passage you think she is guilty of. Please watch this video before you condemn her. czcams.com/video/aVY7S2UOd1s/video.html&ab_channel=MessianicTorahObservantIsrael It is not the popular interpretation of these passages but it seems linguistically sound and ethically makes more sense. Getting them both to go for sound pastoral premarital counseling might still be wise.
If he's saved now his marriages are under the blood. Give it to God. Marriage is not sin.
If he got saved after his divorces, he is a new man. Give him a Jesus break. My good friend has been married 4 or 5 times. First 2 divorce. Third death. Fourth just married. I know he loves the Lord. He has made bad decisions, hasn't listened to God. But he is still in the faith trying and believing. Mercy on him. I love him in Christ. I think finally he learned his lesson and married a godly woman. People make mistakes. Are divorcees too dirty for you? There is a woman at the well who Jesus saved. He was not too good for her.
My aunt and my cousin, who means very much to me, both live in sexual sin with men they are not married to. I have tried time and time again to make them see the error in their ways. They become angry when I do so. My cousin wont even talk to me at all anymore, she pretends I dont exist and has broken off contact with me. They are both "engaged" to these guys so not only do I face the problem of not associating with them because of their sin life but soon I am going to have to confront them about the issue of their marriages and how I will not attend them unless they are genuine acts of repentance in order to get right with God. Thats assuming I even get invited in the first place, I dont think I will.
I pray for your aunt and your cousin and that you'll make the right decisions according to God's will!
It’s not your job to correct them . Especially if they are not believers. If they are believers they would already know better so it’s simply up to you to pray . It’s the Holy Spirit that will convict them . It works the same with adult children . But out of their lives and let God work on them and pray.the Holy Spirit is way better at this stuff than you or I’ll ever be.
@@flowerpower3618
So you believe in a "soft" gospel that doesn't confront sin?
The scriptures are clear that we must confront sin in a believers life.
See 1 Cor 5 and Mat 18
You don't have any biblical support for your position.
@@toddcote4904 if they are living with someone they aren’t a Christian. But no I don’t believe in a soft gospel. My response was to remind the original poster that it is not up to her to nag . It’s the HS that convicts of sin . Also we do not need to carry the burden of constant worry , we continually pray and leave it at the Lord’s feet. That is all. I hope that clears it up. Have a good day.
@@flowerpower3618
My point stands, you quoted nothing from the scripture to support yourself.
What do you think the gospel is, "Jesus loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life"?
Why do you think all the Apostles were killed, for saying "Jesus loves you"? Or was it because they called people to repentance from their sin, BECAUSE THEY WERE SINNING?
I`d say ya, but talk to them every once and a while to see whats up.
Sometimes that's not really necessary. My sister in law is "married" to a woman and they both are "pastors" in a church. A few months ago we got a card of the other woman having a daughter from a sperm donor and apparently they're all happy about it (my sister in law had the same thing like two years ago). So we might as well save ourselves the trouble and pain.
And yes, they are not disciplined by their own church, we had to do that ourselves.
Hi, my wife suffers from complex trauma/ cptsd. This effects our marraige as she uses lies, deception, manipulation, emotional betrayal and the lot to "hide" and avoid emotional intimacy, sincerity and transparency. That in itself is abuse to me! She is unrepentant to commit and journey whole heartedly with any counselor. The marriage itself is traumatic, chaotic frustrating to journey and piece life together with her wilfully not able to or wanting to be present. Can I divorce her?
Is she a non believer
I have two adult daughters one doesn't believe in a God the other one doesn't believe in the bible or written word. Isn't that blasphemy
Yeah even if it the church says it’s okay we are imperfect always go back to what the Bible says
"6/10/10 From YahuShua HaMashiach, Our Lord and Savior
The Word of The Lord Spoken to Timothy
For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear
(Regarding unbelieving family members)
My sons and daughters, what is trust with abandonment? What is obedience without expectation? Is not your reasonable service love without condition? Yet I tell you the truth, trust is more than letting go. For it remains standing that it must also be shown in your obedience and by your example, and by your willingness to never deny My name, no matter the time or the season. Beloved, place your loved ones in My hands, as I have said, for at no time were they forsaken. For I am the gate for all My sheep, and they also will hear My voice in the day they are humbled, the day their hearts crack and their pride crumbles... And oh what a cry shall be heard, oh what wailing shall come forth.
Yet are you not also My hands and My feet, My voice, a testimony and a lamentation bearing witness of Me? Therefore, again I say to you, do not deny My name to please others or because of fear. Make no effort to keep the peace for their sakes. Rather as it is written: Proclaim My words; be instant in and out of season. Reprove, rebuke and exhort, with all long-suffering, according to that which I have shown you. For one who truly loves Me speaks about Me, and remains faithful at all times and in every season. And one who places Me above all else has shown their loved ones who is first, and what faithfulness truly is. For there is no true love apart from Me; nor can one remain faithful unless they have received of Me.
Therefore to speak of Me in the
Company of others is to love them...
And to deny Me in the company
Of others is to hate them,
Whereby you have also revealed that
Your comfort is of more importance than
The Truth, and keeping the peace
More important than their lives...
Says The Lord."
www.thevolumesoftruth.com/Be_Instant_In_and_Out_of_Season
Jesus never bothered with the Pharisees but people in comments want believers to lose sleep over stubborn non-believers
Actually Jesus bothered with the Pharisees quite a bit because they were claiming to be believers, but I Cor 5 is clear that church discipline is not for clear non-believers.
Read about his first public appearance in the gospels. He flipped over the tables with all the gold abs silver they collected from the people. He then called them hypocrites and was angry that turned HIS place of worship into a marketplace.
The only reason the Pharisees were mad (according to my understanding of the gospels) was because he said “My pace of worship.” He claimed he was god and they later sight to kill him because of it.
This is exactly what eventually led to him being killed. He completely embarrassed the Pharisees in front of all their followers and they sought to kill him because of it.
Your first sentence shows a complete lack of understanding to the gospels. Do you even know WHY he was killed?
But what about king Solomon? 🤔
What about him?
@@robertd7717 y did God allow him to have so many wives and concubines?
@@nicholasclarke8182 That's a good question. I've asked myself the same thing... David also. I wonder why the Lord seems to have blessed both his marriages. Must be something I don't understand.
King Solomon and king David were both punished for what they did. Imagine how kind Solomon felt looking into his son's eyes knowing the destruction that he has brought on his child in the future....terrible feeling to be stuck with. As for the people , they told Solomon a earful I guarantee it, David to. As King David approached Bahurim,(A) a man from the same clan as Saul’s family came out from there. His name was Shimei(B) son of Gera, and he cursed(C) as he came out. 6 He pelted David and all the king’s officials with stones, though all the troops and the special guard were on David’s right and left. 7 As he cursed, Shimei said, “Get out, get out, you murderer, you scoundrel! 8 The Lord has repaid you for all the blood you shed in the household of Saul, in whose place you have reigned.(D) The Lordhas given the kingdom into the hands of your son Absalom. You have come to ruin because you are a murderer!”(E)
9 Then Abishai(F) son of Zeruiah said to the king, “Why should this dead dog(G) curse my lord the king? Let me go over and cut off his head.”(H)
10 But the king said, “What does this have to do with you, you sons of Zeruiah?(I) If he is cursing because the Lord said to him, ‘Curse David,’ who can ask, ‘Why do you do this?’”(J)
11 David then said to Abishai and all his officials, “My son,(K) my own flesh and blood, is trying to kill me. How much more, then, this Benjamite! Leave him alone; let him curse, for the Lord has told him to.
@@nicholasclarke8182 God also never allowed Saul to have all of those wives, we have free will in this life and we can choose what we want to do, but God punished Solomon for what he did.
And then what...you talk to the Pastor because they are not listening....and expose your family???
Thats what the book of Matthew says.
Expose your family..what?
@@ryfidelity7854 not really. What verses do you think apply here?
"Loving ostracism"
Well there's an oxymoron if I ever heard one
Not necessarily. One can ostracize another with scornful looks and a cold shoulder, or they can do so with a grieving, firm, yet hopeful approach. It is a delicate balance that's impossible to get right without Christ.
@@robertd7717
Doesn't matter. Ostracism can never be considered loving. It's like using a term like "hateful affection"
@@redpillfreedom6692 Well I'm doing it with my sister right now. Not that I won't be in the same room with her. I'm just giving her space and am not acting like everything is as it was before, because it's not. Not until she repents.
@@robertd7717
That isn't ostracism. Ostracism is when you don't even acknowledge their existence.
@@redpillfreedom6692 I guess it's just semantics
What if your Christian husband is a emotionally and verbally abusive narcissist?
Get Christian counseling. You can separate in abuse. For the sake of peace. Read the book, "When to Walk Away". Gary Thomas. I have two friends in same situation. These two ladies stay but no serving the Lord. Just their husbands.
@@candicec6513 there has been many years of regular and Christian counselling and courses. If I were to guess, likely 8-10 counsellors on the period of 13 years each one helping us between 2months and 1 year each.
But will check out this book, thankyou 😊
Check out "The Emotionally Destructive Marriage" by Leslie Vernick.
Abuse isn't a marriage problem. Its a character problem in the person committing abuse. That person needs to get help first before you can work on the marriage.
Separate immediately.
John is SO ridiculous.
1 Corinthians 5 :11
Oh nice shunning people, like JW. Nice!
you must not read scripture thoroughly.
Actually this was Jesus' idea. See Mat 18:15-17. It replaced the Old Testament practice of stoning people to death for the same offenses. Seems pretty progressive. It is called restorative justice.
@@ryfidelity7854 your right I don't search the bible for specific text or passage, in order to discriminate against people. Jesus came to save sinners. Its not knowledge of the bible that saves , but faith in Jesus
@@johnbreitmeier3268 Mathew 18.32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him O though wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou had compassion on thy fellow servant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not everyone his brother their trespasses.
Jesus came not to condemn the world but to save it, to pay a ransom for many. If we forgive others their sins we shall be forgiven ours. In the passage you pointed to Jesus tells us to treat the sinner like a pagan or tax collector, not like a scribe or pharisee. Jesus saved his fiercest rebukes for those who appeared to whorship God but had no mercy. I'm not saying restorative justice isn't good, but surely to forgive is better
@@peskymogwai7742 If you think the Word of God is discriminating against people then you might want to examine yourself on why you think that or how you would feel if the situation actually was discriminating, according to the opinions of modern day society.
The Bible speaks for itself, and it has particular orders and a way of doing things that God knows will work out best for us. There is Church order/roles, marital order/roles, marital authority, parental order/roles, parental discipline, Church discipline, divine discipline, etc.
Grace by Faith is what saves, but if the faith you have is a saving faith then it will produce good works, fruit, and the desire to want to obey Him. NOT to disobey Him because you have a problem with authority and think high of yourself.
Fundies... lol.
Do you mean those who actually believe?
Nominal Christians... lol.
Pastor you are dead wrong.
John piper’s been in the ministry for decades. It’s both humble and wise to be very slow in assuming the worst of him or leveling an accusation against him! I am curious to ask this though: are there any specific verses from the Bible which make you believe he’s wrong about this?
@Mel Bornn so you don't necessarily disagree but you think he should not be hypocritical?
Unfortunately he often is. I have gone through maybe 20 of his videos and might have agreed with one. He may have pastored for decades but he doesn't appear to know the Bible well and knows sound doctrine even less well. He has invented his own theological system called Christian Hedonism which is not a good sign. I haven' t yet checked to see if he has completely abandoned the Gospel but he has greatly modified it and misundersttod it. He leans heavily on his own understandind.
@@ChrisHowlandOfficial you’re comparing him to man-made accomplishments. Why not compare his teachings with the teachings of the gospels?
@@johnbreitmeier3268 great discernment you have
John Pipers Reformed Theology IS BLASPHEMY because it impugns and assaults the good, just and merciful nature and character of the GOD of the Bible. Heresy is defined as any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs, in particular the accepted beliefs of a church or religious organization. Whereas, Blasphemy is an insult that shows contempt, disrespect, or lack of reverence concerning a deity, a sacred object, or something considered inviolable. . God plainly says. "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” That is the character he has revealed in Scripture. God is making it clear that He doesn't have to have mercy on any one but He has decided to have mercy on the whole human race and have compassion on the whole human race. God again reinforces this fact in 1 Timothy 2 : 3-6 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. Those that don't see this, can't see this, because they have blinded themselves and will not see. There isn't one thing attractive about the Calvinist god. Hate, destruction, false salvation by lottery, pleasure in creating and forcing sin on the World. Calvin's god actually condemns people to false salvation. It is forcing you against your will and then making you think it was your idea.That is the description of rape. Calvinists convinced of their lottery win, then go out and teach people that they and everyone else have no free will! How could it be your idea?? It sounds like organized insanity when you are not in the Calvinist organizations. John Piper IS Satans agent masquerading as a teacher of light! Read this quote of John Piper from his web site and you decide if this is your god he is describing... " God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes-as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem-God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child . "
This is incorrect
@@Lexrolla-1 Sometimes the Truth hurts those who follow false teachers. Do you follow the man "John Piper" John MacAurthur, Spugeon, Sprould and their like. I listen to God's message through Matthew Mark Luke and John, but I do not follow them. I follow Jesus and Jesus alone. Everything I put into the text is true, it is only false to those who are blinded by its light.
@@truth7416 maybe that's the problem....you follow the lord through matthew,mark Luke and John....completely negating the influence and power of the holy spirit for guidance, discernment and understanding of all things...whom without you are poor dumb naked and blind stumbling through the scriptures...and life... in the dark...I emplore you to take a good hard look at that fact..
@@Lexrolla-1 Calvin didn't use the power of the Holy Spirit to guide him in writing The Institutes of the Christian Religion. If anything he plagarized Augustine.
@@reedermh then there too is a problem
Just imagine the scene, God is sitting on his throne and he is reading out every uncharitable deed and thought you have ever had, it will take a long time to read out the sins of every person who has ever lived regardless of whether they had ever heard of this Middle Eastern God or not. This God has a book with all of this written in it, if he is all knowing and all powerful he would not need a book, it would all be in his head, Finally he gets to you and you are summoned up before him, you have been a good Christian and God passes sentence, ENTER THE GATES OF HEAVEN! Straight away you notice that your parents and all the people you loved on Earth were judged differently and they are being thrown into a fiery torture pit, but that is OK because you have made it and after all it is all about YOU, Happy days, excepting that an eternity of being a goody two shoes will not be all that appealing. Now that Gods great experiment is over he might become bored with all the residents of Heaven and will have to invent a new game to play in the universe, maybe the new game will be as horrific as his last venture, more wars, famine, crime and droughts to test his subjects, who knows? This God is so capricious that your new home in Heaven might be worse than Hell, How could anyone who has any education at all believe any of this religious nonsense? BUT YOU DO !! and your one shot at a good life is spent down on your knees grovelling to something that does not, and has never existed. The mind boggles at such utter stupidity ! ! !