TIMING CHAIN VS. GEAR DRIVE VS. BELT DRIVE. WHICH IS BEST? ANSWER AT END OF VIDEO.
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- čas přidán 11. 02. 2023
- I GO THRU THE PROS AND CONS OF ALL 3 SYSTEMS TO MAKE YOUR CHOICE MORE INFORMED. IN BETWEEN I TALK ABOUT MY TURBO STREET RACING DAYS AND WHAT I DID TO MAKE POWER!
PLS. EXCUSE THE DOG BARKING IN THE BACKGROUND, IT IS MY NEPHEWS NEW PUPPY AND STILL NOT USED TO HOME...
I get numerous requests for technical advice and if interested, tex me @ 626 203 2712. $100-Half hour to $150-1 hour+ rates. Most calls go over as posted and it is ok. US Pacific time zone.
This all flashed me back to the days of my youth, in the -70’s. Dealing primarily with Chevy V-8’s, we speculated many of the issues being attributed to crank - camshaft backlash. The Jessel belt drives were a welcome innovation at the time.
I personally put a fair amount of time into distributors, and distributor/ oil pump drive gear back lash. Ultimately, I ended up making a eccentric sleeve that a reduced diameter distributor housing, slipped into, making it possible to adjust camshaft - distributor gear engagement- backlash, and additionally, modifications to reduce housing and breaker plate deflection.
You brought up a important point with regard to timing marks. It has always amazed me, the number of times I’ve seen people who should know better, not verify TDC, and rely on factory timing marks.
Specially worse with the fords wherein it is easy to bend the timing tab pointer and really give you a wrong reading from the get go! Not so much with the chevy big or small block it is much simple...
You sir, are my new favorite CZcams channel for fresh information. I've been telling all of my buddies to watch your videos. Keep up the great work! 👍
Thanks for spreading the word and appreciate it much sir!
Ben, great upload. Loved the improved picture quality.
Looking forward to the next installment. :)
Thanks and learning how to balance my lighting and it has been a hit and miss friend!
Great video Ford power forever baby keep on pulling the knot out of them bow ties
Thanks Jimmy!
thank you for another valuable video, lots of great knowledge, thank you for sharing
Thanks Kevin.
V-tech by stretch, love it... Ben, thank you so much for everything you do.
Thanks Jeff!
Thanks Ben.
More great information for my next engine build.
George, definitely stay with a belt over noise and looks of a belt drive.
Thanks Ben! Great info as usual!
Thanks again for your support!
Thank you Ben for all the informative information about engines. I never learnt so much about engines thank you
Thank you!
@@benalamedaracing2765 no problem
I learn something with every video . Thank you Mr Alameda !!!
Glad to hear that and thanks for supporting my channel Bob!
Educating us and good stories !
Thx Ben
Thanks!
Ben, you are answering some questions ❓🤔 I had 40+years ago! Thank You!
Wow makes sence. Thanks for sharing your expertise really helps
Thanks!
Great video sir. Chop suey chains 🤣🤣🤣 made me laugh buddy. But you are correct sir. Im going with a hyvo chain set.
Great video Ben.
I have been told by a friend that tried gear drives in 426 Hemi in Super Stock and they lost 10hp over a timing chain.
So with many engines it is a chain for me.
Belts are nice, but expensive and not good for all applications.
Thanks for sharing.
Take care, Ed.
Thanks Ed for confirming what I have been saying for a long time and seen it many times!
If they supposedly lost 10 hp over a chain, they did something wrong. I've NEVER seen a power loss using a gear drive, and in fact have seen a slight increase using them. Belts and chains stretch, gear drives don't. Once PROPERLY SET UP, cam timing CANNOT change like it can with a belt..and don't even get me started on the whole "harmonics" bs....talk to the engineers at RCD and Milodon, they will enlighten you on this subject....I'll just say that it's total bs....
Wow I thought belt drive was all the rage. I've never seen one of those chain drives before. Awesome video as usual Ben
The Hy-Vo has been discontinued but I hope there are others out there producing it again and I buy my stuff from Roush-Yates Engines because they have some left over.
Thanks for video!
Thank u ben, for ur knowledge again
Thanks you as well sir! Thanks for supporting my channel.
Thank you for your experience your intelli enjoy watching what you have thank you very much
Thanks as well and the pleasure is mine sir.
I have watched this video 2 time's and still love it. And really love the story time. My daughter and I are thinking of going with the gear drive just for the sound and be different than the others guy's.
Whatever makes you happy I am all for it and keep hot rodding!
Great info. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Nice chain
Ben I ran Summers Bros USA made 3 gear drives for yeas back in the 70’s when cams where much smoother profiles. Stuff made today all different as you are sharing.
M
Yes the lobes seems to be more aggressive with horrendous amounts of valve springs pressures.
I had a 1968 ford galaxie with a 390, I drove home one day shut it off, when I went to start it; all it would do is crank over, ended up being a sheard nylon factory camshaft timing gear.
Jeff, same here after I stopped to gas up it quit! lol
Ben I met you at the SuperFlow deal way back when you talked about tapping on bolts or studs. I was at FEL-PRO HP then I under stood and I learned that when I was 14 from an old guy who raced Caddy’s 331-365’s Haa.
Mike Caruso
MIchael, nothing beats experience and you have that for a long time!
I was listening to your story about ice on the intercooler. I know of a racer that used to dump his CO2 fire suppression extinguisher over his intercooler when he needed more power. Was interesting to see how many times they changed out the fire bottle because he accidentally tripped the fire suppression system 😳 🤔 😬 😆 🤣 😂
All the stories of finding horsepower anywhere and we all done that! lol
Borg Warner makes that chain (Hy-Vo) for drive systems. My 1995 Ford F250 has one but it is in the Borg Warner transfer case for the 4wheel drive. Borg Warner still makes the chain but for a ohv timing chain set I don't know if the do. They sell it for overhead cam engines.
I need to get some more if they are available and last time I got mine from Roush-Yates engines.
Thanks for the great videos and stories. My friend that is an engine builder quite using gear drives along time ago. Have you used the chains made in Germany? I can't remember the name even looking through my notes. I know Big Chief swears buy them. I do know if a chain is way too tight it will loose a few HP.
I remember there was a chain made in Germany that was awesome and never saw another one again! I agree if the chain is tight putting it on it will costs you.
You could used a Tube in a Tube like Marine water cooled Exhaust but on the Turbo Boosted pipe to cool air some what.
Yes and my friend used a bigger pipe over-lay on the original diameter and it wasn't that much bigger but if you look underneath it has an inlet and outlet hose! Smart actually and it did cool down the boost charge enough to make a difference.
Raising your idle speed above 600 rpm to around 700-1000 might help with timing chain wear, as my GM Holden 308 had a very worn/slack timing chain making ticking noises around 600 or below rpm,basically slapping the side of the block, due to valve springs/cam action,but as I raised rpm,noise went away due to less effect from valve springs stressing the chain
Rpm's is what kills the chain not idling because there is enough oil splashing around even at that low an rpm do be not a serious issue.
That modified HY-VO sprocket at the end is how they should come from the factory!!
I always wonder about the aftermarket... What some people are thinking? Like why a man would design a better component, in this case a highly robust timing set, and then neglect to take the next logical step, reduce unneeded weight. Drilling and channeling to improve oiling seems like something that would have been done. Or at least after handling the prototype.... Hmm, revision A, remove weight, improve oiling.
So many aftermarket parts over the years for me have come real close, but required that final massage in the garage. It's like a "good enough" mentality, versus, "that's perfect!"
The HYVO timing set is available @ Roush Yates and they have many in stock.
Hi Ben the last information I heard about Kenzi was that he moved back to Hawaii , but since then I heard he had passed away. But I don't know the exact date.
On my ls I am using the iwus German chain, I'll see next time I have it down.
Ben said he built the occasional Chevys, but he does his best with Fords..
Yes he was pretty crazy but really cool. He put together a Kawasaki Z1r which he built from scratch and he was selling it, so I bought it from him.
He was not that open to a lot of the guys at PD but him and I hit it off great perhaps because we are both Asians! lol
Anyway we use to ride all the way to Phoenix for the NASCAR races and he would always smoke a joint which freak me out and I would roll down my windows going 85mph. Hoping no highway patrol stops us on the way early mornings.with another PD guy with us. He would sit at the back and smoke a good one lol.
Miss his eccentricities thats all.
@Ben Alameda Racing yes when I would go over to his place to get parts for the Kawasaki he would be feeling good. Lol... The inside of the house reminded of Cheech and Chongs Up in Smoke movie when they were smoking in the car and parked in front of a stop sign. That was Crazy!!!🤣
I believe that is a Simplex chain in that Hy-Vo set. That type of chain is used in Modular Fords and many other timing chain OHC and DOHC engines. NASCAR engine builder Keith Dorton says to heat up a timing chain submerged in a moly oil additive to 200 degrees for 2 hours to virtually eliminate chain stretch.
That is something new that I never heard about soaking in moly oil. Interesting and wonder if there is a link to his explanation doing so on video?
Chain stretch is not the metal actually stretching. It's the tiny wear on every pin, bush, link etc on the chain.... longer the chain = more stretch.
@@khalidacosta7133 Agree!
HY-Vo is a Morse Borg-Warner chain
Difference with double roller is that roller chain has rollers and morse is sliding chain that require more energy for rotating -so strength into small volume isn't for free
There is always a price to pay just about for anything! Hy-Vo chains for me last for a very long time for endurance or very high rpms. A roller chain stretches no matter what brand.
The Hy Vo chain may be strong but it is a stock type non roller chain that is not as efficient and has more rolling resistance. A good quality double roller is always the best choice.
Innovative Dampers I think could be good with a gear drive?
They work well and I use an ATI or Romax more than the others.
I agree, i hear cars pull timing all the time. Pass after pass and they dont fix it
How is it sweetened?
What do you recommend for chevy sb 350, p.jackson gear drive or belt?
I have always wondered why does no one have a harmonic damper on the cam gear? I know there isn't a lot of room, but seems a damper bolting on a damper with the cam sprocket, about the same size as the sprocket, with it being about 1/4 the thickness, it seems it would dampen the the vibration from the crank it may require a different timing gear cover, but we'll worth it possibly! Maybe use an aluminum hub, with a heavy steel or inconel something heavy and dense, with a Viton band connecting the two! Or maybe use a fluid like the fluid damper technology,
It can likely be built into the sprocket, fitting behind a traditional cover!
James, good question. If you look at the camshaft it is actually running half the speed of the crank. Therefore more of the dampening needs to be right there and the chain/belt drive does a decent amount of dampening by themselves but more should be done. I do not like fluid type dampeners because of its inability from my point of view to react fast enough when you down shift or let off the gas on a super fast high rpm engines! In the process loosing and breaking the crank snout which happened many times.
Couldnt find a HY - VO Time chain kit
VETC BY Stretch that’s funny Ben
What else can we call it ? Lol Might as well make fun of our predicament with chain stretch.
Went wth javel belt drive
Burinin' people down on the line will cause fist fights today! ROFL!!
Yes and NHRA/IHRA has rules for these but the Outlaw Tracks it is nothing but a glorified street race!
Ben i was told that u cant run a billet cam gear cause u need a torrington bearing, is this true on a sbf
Yes sir it will grind the factory thrust plate and the cam will move fore and aft big time inside the block! Same applies to Chevys and other engine makes.
The gear setup in a 300 inline six is amazingly reliable even when revved past 7000 rpm, like the Frenchtown Flyer does. The gear setup in a Cummins diesel are equally reliable, even when revved to 5000+ . The issues arise when they use those stupid aftermarket gear sets that make all kinds of noise and suck. I've seen more than a few of those pete jackson style sets fail miserably, ass and guts flying everywhere. I never used them, I'm not into the squealy rat sound, but other guys seem to love those things.
Agree with you on gear drives and only makes noise and not much else!
I've seen several failed gears in the 300 in a circle track application. They wear and beat the hell out of the keyways. Also takes out the cam bearings eventually. Definitely something to check periodically as part of off season maintenance. Seems like most people forget about them.
@@DownwardFlame yeah circle track's a pretty harsh life for them. But I bet they run good with all that torque.
Please explain to me why all NASCAR engines and all pro stock engines use timing belts? I think it’s because the crankshaft has tons of harmonics in it, and with a chain to transmit these harmonics to the cam and valve train. And it also could be the fact that they are infinitely adjustable not 4 degree increments.
Just saying
Yes sir the constant ignition pulse reverberating from the crank to the chain will have a tendency to vibrate other associated components. A belt seem to "dampen" this harmonics to a certain degree much better than a gear drive or chain.
Ben do you build any Cleveland or Boss Motor's???
Very few these days mostly for competition because I am retired and retarded! lol
so in theory of the harmonics from a gear set, it could cause detonation also?
No it cannot.
@@benalamedaracing2765 so have there been any dyno pulls with the floater type gear drive assembly in comparison to the chain? i cant find any
How about the 3 gear Milodon grear drive, its not cheap!
Yes it is and no gain in power just noise! lol
@@benalamedaracing2765 I like that noise when paired with a lumpy cam😎
Hi Ben, i was wondering are you going to be at the 4Wide Nationals this April? Thank you, Richie
I know there is an event one of my cars told me they will show up in Las Vegas and what date was this?
April 14th to the 16th. But I will be there on Saturday the 15th. On one of your videos you mentioned a co worker that worked on LAPD motorcycles. Kenzie he use to live a couple of blocks from me in Gardena .
Your videos are really informative 🤙
@@richardokamoto Do you have his number around? Have not seen him like 30+ years we did a lot of crazy stuff @ work. I do not even know if he is around anymore..
@@richardokamoto thanks for your support of my channel and hopefully see you in April @ Vegas.
What class do u race Mr. Ben?
Presently I run several engines/cars on the NA circuit and some compete at the "No Time" series with different organizations. All heads up classes with many restrictions from tires to suspension etc...
I didn't hear him talk about belt drives....
Belt drives are superior but costs a lot of money!
How much for porting heads.
I am retired and only do limited stuff. What are you building?
Ballon country haaaaaa
Lol
I wonder If balloon country makes high quality balloons if they suck at motor parts maybe their good at balloons ya think ???🤣😂🤣 i need to buy a used hy-vo from ya 😅 I bet your used one is still in better shape than the one on beans (347 pinto ) at $750 bucks it should be
I bought several sets of used units from Roush-Yates and they were all good and seems almost new. They told me dyno time only. ?
@@benalamedaracing2765 thats really cool if ya got a spare that you would be willing to sale let me know I would love to have something cool like that
What timing chain for a Chevy 🤷
JUst run a belt if you have the $$$. :)
Hi-Vo?
Yes google the name and the part numbers will show up.
Probably need to go to dinner 😊 you're not old, just wise 😊
Perhaps dinner is great when you are eating with another gearhead! lol
@@benalamedaracing2765 perhaps
They use those timing chain design on certain transfer cases hyvo design I had a set years ago could not fit it under the timing cover could of been a Cleveland design never really checked I was tryin to use it on a 351 Windsor
Clevelands and Windsor timing chains do not interchange.
So I’m building a engine with what I see is almost a good quench using a 40 gasket here’s my question deck height is 9.5 and total is 9.49 piston has a valve relief +5cc combustion is 62cc it’s a stroker 408 using 4100 crank so I’m having issues with compression from what I see I’m at 12.6 compression can u give me any recommendations on how can I make this a street car I messed up some Where down the line Cars target is a street daily car a/c etc yet track every now and then I would appreciate ur expertise in this build