What does the zinc do in an engine oil?
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- čas přidán 5. 07. 2024
- Zinc. It's a highly misunderstood additive when it comes to engine oils, particularly as it relates to engines that drive passenger vehicles. In this video we explore what zinc additives actually do in your engine, and how that relates to lubricant performance.
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Keep the chemistry and the equations in your videos.
As an engineer myself, I live for that stuff!
Glad to hear it!
I own a 1989 B150 Dodge Van with a 318 c.i. engine. I had a lifter tic for 15 years in the morning. An employee at O'Reilly's mentioned that I should be using and engine oil with zinc in it. I had been religious about oil changes, and I put Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel and oil every fuel fill and oil change. No one ever told me about zinc. I bought a gallon of oil with zinc in it, and it helped. I purchased a bottle of zinc (the straight additive) and added it to the oil. That cured the tic. That 318 engine has 550,000 miles on it, and it runs tight with no smoke. Thanks to John at O'Reilly's in Newberg, Oregon.
Use Mobil 1 15w-50 or any of the racing oils as they all contain zinc. The highest zinc content is found in 4 stroke motorcycle oils as the same .problem you find in lifters is also amplified in motorcycle clutches. Your lifter problem will not go away as the crown ground on your lifters is surely almost gone. This will result in the lifters inability to slowly spin and will eventually self destruct. Modern engines us a roller on the bottom of the lifter n the contact area of the camshaft and thus do not spin. The cost of converting older engines to a roller system in most cases is prohibitive as the labor combined with the parts is usually more than just buying a newer used car. This is usually only done if one is rebuilding a classic car.
2:10 Ford Australia actually discovered accidentally that they required a better oil and/or at different cam profile way back when the XF Falcon switched from leaded to unleaded petrol.
As an apprentice, I helped change numerous camshaft and lifter sets on the early cars.
Seems the lead deposits in the engine oil of the leaded cars had been 'saving' the cams from premature death. After the switch, they had cars failing all over the place as the hard facing broke through.
Thanks for the lesson 👍
Excellent channel. The focus is on content rather than watching an individual speak to the camera. I appreciate that there is sufficient detail in your charts and great visuals.
Thanks!
I'm trying to explain to an analytical skeptic why we use oil with zinc in our fleet of zero turn mowers. You just gave me all the talking points I need. Thankyou!
Glad you found it helpful!
Which oil?
Thanks so much. finally someone who clears up all the mysteries of lubrication that i always felt i have no place to ask and get a qualified answer.
Best explanation I have heard yet
Currently doing my undergrad thesis on Super High Oleic Safflower Oil with Polyisobutylene and ZDDP additive and your content is so helpful!
Wow that sounds awesome! Glad I could help.
You are really good at explaining this stuff.
This year, thanks to buying a new motorbike, I started following several tribologists on YT. It's fascinating. But this explanation really filled some holes for me. More P than Z! Excellent points throughout presented with clarity. Thanks!
Very informative, thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience with us.
Glad it was helpful!
Really appreciate the depth that went into showing what these chemicals do. I've always wondered how oil helped besides just being slippery
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you I myself synthesis these and find it very interesting using different combination of alcohol and seen it the way you beautiful explain
Great info! It would be great if you guys could make something on water contamination and it effects in the lubricant performance.
Thanks! Yes, we’ll try to get in a video on the effects of water contamination. Look out for it in the Contamination Control playlist soon!
Great explanation, as this information is lacking here in Brazil, here you can't find any information as qualified as that in Portuguese, few people here know what it's about and the importance of this technical information. Thanks alot.
Same here in Nigeria
Thank you. Clear presentation.
You are welcome!
Very informative. Thanks!
I am not a very smart fellow, but I was able to follow what you are teaching. My brain wanted to explode but thank goodness my skull is so thick it was able to manage the strain. I add zinc to my 1995 Jaguar, 1981 Harley-Davidson and 1972 Chevy pickup. Thanks for the video!
Thanks for commenting!!
Is there a video on ashless antiwear? I'd be very interested to see it! You mentioned in the video that we don't have the analytical technology yet to understand the composition of the tribofilm... But do we have any more ideas on the mechanism of how the tribofilm forms?
Thanks, great video!
increadible contents! Can you do a video on cvt fluids and wet clutch lubrication? Wonder how friction and lubrication are taken care of at the same time.
Thanks! Aiming to get something done on wet clutches for an MCO course I'm building. I've got lots on the list though!
Great video , thankyou .
So basically a good quality oil combined with a high level of zinc additive will help all moving parts and protect so many other parts in your motor whether it's an old high-mileage engine or a new one
Well explained, thnx
Glad it was helpful!
Could you make a video explaining how wear and friction are two different phenomena?
thank you so much
Hi, Mr. LE I found an onion smell on my car's engine used room temperature oil, at 10k kms. I have added ZDDP max on it. Would the suplemental zddp make it smell like onions (Sulphur on it)?
7:05 How can ZDDP have any affect on valve and valve seat wear? They are not lubricated by the oil.
Hi Mr. LE, what you think about the RAT540 blog, regarding his oil film psi support test about engine protection not from the ZDDP but from film strenght?
Mister Rat melted my brain & has thrown All common myths into the trash.
What happen to the Zn in the ZDDP, will it increase or reduce in the lubricant after the oxidation occur
What would be your ideal concoction for a modern v8 engine motor oil of products on the market? I do pennzoil ultra platinum with motorkote for my l86, but I wonder what would be the best
Also discuss about different types of zddp
Will try to address it in a future video, there's so many topics!
I have a classic musclecar with an engine that’s been rebuilt. The valve train now consists of all roller components (hydraulic roller cam and full roller rockers). I assume it’s still a good idea to use a high zddp oil ? It doesn’t have catalytic converters and I’m not concerned with emissions. Ideally I want the best protection for high rpm and for storage since it doesn’t get driven much
Great information! What are the disadvantages/ reasons zddp was reduced in newer oils ?
It's primarily a regulation thing around catalyst poisoning. Sulphur and Phosphorous inactivate catalysts so over time the vehicle produces more emissions.
what he said, plus bad for fish / 'aquatic species' if backyard oil changes end up in the environment.
Another awesome video. As i watch your videos i am curious if you will do a separate video on your education and career experience. You pronounce Z incorrect lol it’s (zee) not (zed) ha ha. Funny story when i went to New Zedland i needed to establish contacts in the trade to complete my task. With difficulty understanding the gentleman on the phone i asked for his email and boy he didn’t disappoint lol zed this zed that and when i asked him to spell it he shouted ZED ZED! I am spelling it! I revealed my uneducated American upbringings without knowing it lol. Cheers
Hahaha, maybe one day! Will try to get through an A-Zee of lubricant technology first.
very informative videos you have, I have a question please, does the anti wear additives depletes as fast as the other additives like detergents or anti oxidation ?? or it lasts longer ?
Depends on the operating conditions of the engine. But from my experience it typically lasts longer than the detergent package.
Do a video on ceratec and similar additives?
Thank you sir. Very good video and explanation about the ZDDP, i recently saw about the additive and this information is great. And excuse me for my ignorance but why do the cams are the most heavily loaded components?
Glad it was helpful! Cams tend to be the most heavily loaded components in the engine because in old-style cams almost all the relative motion between the cam and the tappet was sliding rather than rolling motion. This has been somewhat alleviated by modern roller-cams. It is also a point-contact, i.e. the stress is concentrated in a single point on the cam rather than being spread out like the connecting rod bearings. Hope that helps!
@@LubricationExplained Thank you very much. Very accepted.
Do you have any information about oil's groups of minerals, synthetics, PAO's, etc.?
@@jacobcollazorios4243 Generally no - the base oil composition of most engine oils tends to be considered proprietary by the manufacturers. Not only that, the base oil composition can change over time; manufacturers will make lubricants to a performance spec - they can vary the base oil composition (sometimes due to cost, sometimes due to base oil availability) a little bit as long as the finished product meets the performance specifications.
Australia host. Penrite is an Australian oil company that advertising zinc as their main additive👍good oil company.
Nothing wrong with Zinc! It's just a matter of matching the amount and type of Zinc to the application.
@@LubricationExplained does it do damage to the cat? Is it suitable for motorcycles because motorcycles run way faster in revolutios , and zinc helps, but why many oil companies put less in the oils?
@@LubricationExplained also , what about piston rings? These are highly loaded too, will zinc help?
Big Thanks!!!!
No problem
Nice video boss
Thanks so much! Hope you found it useful.
Very good.
Thanks!
Awesome channel! Can you tell us what you know about nano-borate ester technology in conjunction with ZDDP for further enhanced friction reduction ? I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this.
That's an interesting topic - additive synergies are pretty complex because the mechanism is usually poorly understood. I'd need to review some of the literature first.
Older engines especially with flat tappet cams amsoil zrod is the way to go swapping cast valves for stainless helps as well.....
Hi, interesting video. Popped up on my feed bcoz im yting best oils to break in small engine. I bought a brand new honda 98cc ohc 4 stroke engine to replace the 66cc china doll on my moped. My local parts supply store suggested i use lucas break in oil zddp along with the semi synth. What is your opinion? Is it a good idea, and how much should i use? Says one whole bottle for a full size classic car engine. Maybe its not a good idea at all considering it will place a protective coating? Or maybe its a different formula in the same family. Its a new engine, i should get it tomorrow. Sitting at the post office lol. I want to make sure i do it right. Thx in advance.
Does moly and boron do the same thing?
I readed so much about oil topics. You are one of the fastest and easyest to understand for me, to show main points of a topic about oil. Thank you! :)
I just did an engine rebuild I noticed you said the zddp would destroy seals, was that over the course of repeated use or a one time break in would destroy the seals? I’ve only ever helped my family work on older cars like our 1960 Chevy c-10, 1964 Lincoln continental, 1986 jeep cj5. I rebuilt an ej 255 for my wrx and I thought break in oil was common place but I’ve been getting mixed information online. Any response helps thank you!
Ahh, sorry that might have been me not explaining clearly. ZDDP won't destroy seals, thiophosphoric acid will. This acid is one of the raw materials used to manufacture ZDDP. It's a very potent antiwear additive but too corrosive for engine seals, so we neutralise the acid with Zinc Oxide to make ZDDP, which is safe for seal materials.
@@LubricationExplained thank you so much!
Lots of questions about ZDDP from older car owners. ZDDP is sacrificial, which to me means it gets used up over time.
Does that mean an oil with a lower amount of ZDDP could provide adequate protection for a short oil change interval or would a higher level be required regardless of the OCI ?
To what extent will calcium inhibit the protection of ZDDP ? Many oils for diesel engines have higher ZDDP levels but also high Calcium. Does one negate the other ?
The layer gets used up continuously and the layer thickness stays at the equilibrium point. The more ZDDP the thicker the protection film is. So the answer is no, you cannot use an oil with low levels of ZDDP even for 20 minutes. Calcium and ZDDP serve different purposes and their proportions are not fixed. Some oils may have low calcium and high ZDDP and vice versa. There are a lot of components in an oil which can negate each other. So the researchers have to find the best combination for each application which is not an easy task.
Does ZDDP form a complex or work the same way with aluminum? I was always curious that a lot of these presentations focus on iron or steel, which is a lot of the bearings - but aluminum blocks are quite popular, Alusil and all.
It does! However, the interaction is a little different as Aluminium doesn't have the same reactivity as Iron. This has actually been a problem recently in the stationary gas engine industry, as the drive for higher efficiencies has caused the industry to move from steel to aluminium pistons. The antiwear film is definitely a little different.
The iron and steel in older engines are negatively charged and most oils have positively charged ions
I think the zddp needs to reach a temp of 150Cfor partial, and 225 C for the tiophosphate to completely crystalize on the metal surface. So, for this test to be accurate, the test metal should be cooked at 225 C in it, and then cool down before testing.
well then ZDDP is snake oil in oil.
How does one go about determining the correct amounts of zinc/ phosphorus needed in an engine (Toyota 1FZ-FE, 2UZ-FE, 3RZ-FE)? I use my vehicles for some towing and offroading, which is a little more demanding than a normal passenger car on the highway saving MPG's. I want to keep these things running as long as I can.
Good question - unfortunately that's more a question for the manufacturers than the end user. The limiting factor is usually the cams, and the ZDDP required is a function of cam profile, tappet profile, valve spring tension etc. Not only that, ZDDP isn't the only additive that's performing antiwear functions - most of the modern engine oils will also contain some friction modifiers like the organ-molybdenum compounds, and potentially some other antiwear like borated esters. So there's a lot of variables.
Try a lightweight diesel oil, some are approved for gas motor use
does it truly clog up the catalytic convertor? Does ZDDP end up damaging seals? I know you said only one component of the compound can, but I'm curious if that property passes on to ZDDP or not
It's mostly the phosphorous and sulphur in ZDDP. They don't "clog" catalysts so much as they coat the catalysts, meaning them can no longer physically touch the exhaust gases.
@@LubricationExplained does ZDDP damage seals, or is that only if one of the components is isolated and released into a running motor
Hi! What is your opinion about the use of MoS2 (Liqui-Moly) in engine oil with ZDDP additives such as Selenia ECO2? They are friends or foes?
Good question! I've seen papers indicating that the two are synergistic (i.e. fortify each other).
Its a good news! Thank You!
does Graphene do e same
If you're looking for next-generation lubrication have you taken a look at Xcelplus?
It's a boundary lubricant same as ZDDP and reduces wear by 2~10x.
:-)
What consumer oils have good zddp?
Valvoline VR1
What modern oils contain zinc?
Can you either do a segment on Orange Terpene as a lubricant or send me a PM on it
I have heard that zddp will close your oil galleys or oil passages and prevent oil to the valves of a ohv
Theoretically it shouldn’t, because the anti wear layer formed by ZDDP additives is typically less than a micron thick.
@@LubricationExplained thanks for the reply is there any brands you recommend I have a old flat tappet cam
@@gatordave6629 t6 15-40 diesel contains a high amount of zinc. It's the closest you can get to old school oil. If the engine is well worn then you can run it no problem
@@maxsinger3526 thanks for the advice I have a old jeep with a flat tappet cam and have been using Rotella or valvoline race oil
So the low saps and mid saps oil doesn't have as much wear protection as a full saps oil to protect the engine.
It's a trade off, eigther protect the engine with full saps and the dpf eventually gets clogged or run the low saps oil and the engine needs a rebuild alot sooner.
Funny how phosphorous is the wear element in printing pigments... but anti-wear in automotive... however in offset printing, you have a rubber compound contacting an an aluminum plate with a mild acid water film mixed with ink forming an emulsion.... which wears the plate emulsion.... figure that one out 😂
Hello, but in older engine with an different Api Specification for example an Api Sg or SL you can use an Api Sn ? I asked because I had heard that they require different amounts of zinc and phosphat? It would not be harmful for the engine, sorry for my bad english leve, thanks
Im just a regular m'fer. No phd. Aint writing a thesis. Havnt been nominated for a nobel. I did learn my numbers though or thought i did anyway. Apparently i didnt because im having an extremely hard time counting the "1000's" of moving parts inside a internal combustion engine. Can one of the rocket scientist here in the comments help me out with this very difficult challenge? Hell ill make it easy. Lets just cover maybe the first 100 or so.
And average 4 cilinder head has over 250 parts
What would it be the best oil to use for my vehicle it’s a Om602 engine with 10,000 miles none turbo and none catalytic converter something the it won’t damage the seals
I am looking at 3 brand
Redline
Moly
Pennzoil
👏👏👏👏👏
Thanks!
👍👍
How does the ash form on the valves if no oil is burned inside the engine? If in fact 20 grams of oil makes it's way into the combustion chambers in one year or 15000 km how much ash can you get from it? Zero.
20gram? Buy a VW and say that again.
U can add 2 much zddp...
0:14 There are not thousands of moving parts in an engine, not even hundreds.
I fry my eggs with Rotella. It’s packed with zddp.
Here's a typical question. Will zinc additives help with oil consumption?
Thousands of moving parts? Maybe a few hundred dude.
The main problem with this video is it propagates the myth that ZDDP "coats" surfaces....never has and never will, it simply does not work in that fashion. It is suspended in the oil via the additive package and does absolutely nothing until it is called upon which is activated by extreme heat and pressure. Knowing this dispels another myth that more ZDDP ppm provides greater protection...it does no such thing. More ppm concentrations only extend the depletion rate which by the way is rather miniscule to begin with. This is the reason modern oils with the mandated lower concentrations of ZDDP work just fine and truth be known the modern oils of today are far superior to what we used to have thanks to the additive packages.
2:35
Hehehe what a nightmare that word is
Yup! Still trying to get it right over a year later.
my babe
Actually, theres not thousands of miving parts
A little hyperbolic, sure. I've learnt to be a lot more literal now because otherwise I get a lot of these comments.
no fun
Zinc 🥸
Many moons ago MOBIL 1 was allowed, for use in small aircraft with reciprocating engines, but they HAD SOME SERIOUS LAWSUITS& pay for ENGINE REPLACEMENTS IT no longer is allowed.Now I had called the company on unrelated to this, but I asked about it , what they said BLEW MY MIND , “THEY”did NOT KNOW that those engines needed ZINC & ASH, so that destroyed those engines , so this article just shows it’s NEEDED, but just how a BIG COMPANY NOT KNOW THAT ? Lousy RESEARCH , cheers 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Interesting - do you happen to have any links or articles to the lawsuits you’re referring to? Seems like a very unusual case - ZDDPs have been around since the beginning of modern engine oil formulation and have been common/essential components of synthetic engine oils (like all the versions of Mobil 1) since the 60’s.
@@LubricationExplained hi no I have no links but first came across in an AVIATION magazine, 60-70 I believe, but the dit about NOT KNOWING the Recips needed these. Additives, probably came out with automotive use , here sircraft are mostly flat out, but was a conversation with a rep, as I live in NJ, why MOBILstations dissapear Ed, then I MENTIONED THE AIRCRAFT ENGINES, & was NOT trying to hide anything .I will try to see if I can find anything for you cheers 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Thousands of moving parts? Jeeze lol
No, it wasn't for emissions purposes. In the case of DOT, I believe they basically ordered manufacturers to warranty catalytic converters for 100k miles. This in turn pushed zinc levels in modern API spec oils down to 800ppm from 1000ppm, to lengthen converter service life/extend margin. Does this conserve resources? Yes, but [pardon my jaundice] that is secondary. The real goal of pinheads is to destroy the functionality of the automobile market. Not engines or components... the market. The misanthrope class is as shell shocked by the industrial revolution as Marx was in his day. Its all part of the war on the middle class using combined "boiling frog" methods across multiple agencies [and governments]. But you can bet your * the government jetsetters will coninue to flit about. Parking cash overseas to avoid home jurisdiction scrutiny is just too sweet to pass up.
Governments are now designing automobiles effectively, and that can't end well: politicians absolutely suck at science.
low cost lubricant , avoid put the base oil group 4 and 5 . ZDDP can not using 10,000km. it has more acid increase quickly.
Well, this vid is questionable reliability simply based on the start that engines contain thousands of moving parts. Maybe hundreds, but even less than hundreds. Rebuild an engine and count the parts.
Hyperbole.
Thank the FJB admin for removing zinc from oil and destroying all engines.
that would be FBC administration...1994...and yes as your comment alludes to - - FJB!
You lost credibility early on when you stated higher viscosity gives better protection...you should know better than to spread such nonsense. That is not how engine oil works at all.
Play at 1.5 speed for normal speaking speed.
That's a good tip - this was one of my earliest videos and I wasn't very good speaking through the concepts. Hopefully I've improved in the last two years!
@@LubricationExplained For public speaking they teach you to talk slowly, but I got 10 vids to watch, so I go for the fastest speed that I don't have to backtrack, which was 2.0 for this one, but 1.5 sounds 'normal'.
Love the content, sent to a mate who sells some magic pixie dust oil additive, he said 'but why would you want zinc DDP when you can use the stuff I sell'.
Project farm does some great vids, comparing wear, fuel efficiency and oil analysis, I thought STP was a zinc concentrate, but modern STP is low in zinc from his analysis, it didn't do much I seem to recall.
Edit just looked up project farm's vid, he said that STP has nothing in it and will dilute the ad pack in any modern oil and shouldn't be used unless your engine needs the big viscosity increase from being such a thick additive.