Tiers of TCR goodness
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- čas přidán 20. 06. 2023
- We had a really good chat, put the record stright on a few things, learnt a fews things, and now we are sharing our thoughts with you.
We take a deeper dive into the GIANT TCR, and the value that is missing from fully built bikes. Big discounts are happing, but not so much in full built bikes, but in componants. It is a real mess out there, be a savvy shopper. - Sport
Well done Giant for engaging in a constructive discussion! And thanks for giving us what you learned from that, and turning it into generally applicable advice.
The TCR is such a great bike man, love it...But they need to go back to hooked wheels.
I own one and I had to go w/ a spare of Hunt Aerodynamicist 4454 (due to 20% discount) wheels. So much tire limitation w/ hookless. Terrible. Had to miss out on really good deals on tires before I got Hunts.
World-class expertise mixed with consideration for the consumer is a priceless combination. Thank you very much.
When pre built racing bikes first arrived several decades ago, the pricing structures deliberately made it uneconomical to self assemble/build like for like.
Now the industry has gained our confidence, they have discretely reversed the situation.
They have also slipped in far too many dedicated brand specific components, to tramline us into limited choices.
They have created price points, to align frame specs with their chosen level of componentry, limiting flexibility.
Thank you for opening up this discussion. It is long overdue and it needs constant vigilance.
Thanks for making this video and correcting some of the technical errors from the first. Few obsetvations:
1. The adv sl frameset is an incredible buy at sub 3k. It would be even more so if you could actually buy one. It has to be the cheapest full on Pro Tour level race winning frame available. Chapeau also to giant for not making it 4k by forcing you to also buy an intergrated bar and stem with 42cm bars and 90mm stem that will end up sat on the shelf or on ebay.
2. The pro level shimano powermeter is not so bad when you take into account that it actually works, which shimano's famously does not.
3. Cadex spokes aside, the other concern for many with giants carbon hoops is the hookless design. Very good video this week by peaktorque highlighting some of the BS on this.
The takeaways are kudos to Giant for engaging in the discussion about value and be a savvy shopper as there are deals out there to be had if you're willing to take the time to compare pricing.
Glad I got my TCR Advanced SL Disc back in 2019 before the pandemic and subsequent price increases+inflation. At the time I paid an eye-watering $5K for it (Ultegra DI2) and the dealer offered to swap the stock wheels that came with it with some Black Inc Thirties for no added cost (and brought the bike weight down to right about 16lbs exactly with pedals and cages). Today's equivalent might be double what I paid...
My Winspace Hypers came with spare carbon spokes, they were purchased directly from Winspace. Just purchased a pair of Winspace Grevil wheels for my Grizl gravel bike, they were from the newly set up Australian supplier. Good communication and quick delivery but no spare spokes. They are a known brand spoke so would be pretty easy to pick up locally or through the supplier. I've found most of the far eastern suppliers to support their customers well even if the parts are not shown on their website. Just my experience to date. Keep up the great work and question everything 👍
As I think I commented on the previous video, a good friend of mine bought herself the top of the range, full fat LIV TCR (whatever the ladies equivalent is) for $14 000, AUD. This is essentially the LIV race bike, same as used by Jayco/Bike Exchange (down to the wheels). You look at the equivalent for most other brands and you can double that (Gah... Lot of money....).
But, exchanges like this are one of the reasons I like Giant bikes. They don't get defensive, they happily talk to customers and retailers and they will have productive conversations.
That, and the bikes are properly made and QA'd, with great warranty support (in Australia at least).
Good video guys.
Thanks for sharing your experience
Class act by Giant. I think Shimano have really nailed it in terms of product differentiation. Anything from Deore up functions the same but going up in price just buys you better looking, more refined feeling and lighter brakes. The fact that xtr still sells says enough, some people (including me in this case) just want the very best, even if you can buy something about as good for not even half the price..
Going back to Giant, deliberately going for a less stiff steerer is a bit heavy handed in my opinion. They might as well have offered the same steerer but make the higher level frame a bit more refined in other spots. Santa Cruz offers their frames in C and CC versions, even though the difference is pretty much negligable lots of people (guilty here again) still go for the CC one, just for the feeling of having something very high end. One thing I learned working in a bike shop is that most people are driven more by emotion than by reason and I’m one of them.
Only Peak Torque can think with his head more than his heart when it comes to buying bikes. I like buying crazy stuff too.
Just complete, logical and well spoken advice. Thanks.
Great video, always happy to see bike companies respond. One quick note: I have the original Winspace Hypers, they come with 4 additional spokes and I replaced one myself. I contacted Winspace and they confirmed to me that I could buy additional ones and it wasn`t very expensive. I had pre-measured the tension so replacing it was no big deal.
Perfect. You see. Not too difficult.
So many takeaways. Nice to hear Giant reached out. I am sure they loved being compared to ketchup. You’re “good-better-best” ketchup example was spot on. You should be teaching at Wharton
Haha. I don’t think I would get on very well with MBA students.
Such actions earn respect and customer dollars.
Appreciate you sir!
I appreciate that!
This is one of the most important topic brought up here. Especially for the people who just start engaging themselves into something more than an average road bike from a local Decathlon (I do not say bikes sold in Decathlon are bad, just a lot more affordable and accessible in a way to just buy and ride without the deep diving into details).
Props to Giant. So the take away I get is that it is a great time to be building a custom specced bike. That makes me smile as I will be in the market fairly soon for a replacement to my present steed and definitely want specific things on the bike which none of the completes come close to offering. Now to gather the wherewithall..... and navigate the minefield of sourcing parts which is proving to be a regular rabbits warren.
I've been saying it for a long time now, we're in the golden age of custom built bikes. On Black Friday last year I got a GRX820 1x12s groupset for 650€ without cranks. It launched for 1400€ two months prior. Sram Rival was even slightly cheaper, but I wanted an option to run a dropper post, which made Sram much more expensive in the long run.
Great video and thanks for sharing. I purchased a set of 2016 wheels but spoke to a dealer to make sure I could get spares, even ordered spokes front and back and freehub to stock in the shed. Have the stock wheels in case of any issues. Not sure how long the stocks will last. Appreciate the feedback and also good to mention the hassles of getting parts repaired.
ALWAYS buy spare spokes with your new wheels. Rgr
Giant doesn't want to sell parts made by others branded or otherwise, that carrys little margin, they want you to buy the full bike because they make the frames, there's more margin in that. They market on more levels than just good, better, best. Great vid
A good frame then build your own cheaper and you learn how it works so you learn and it puts a smile on your face
I think we also need to take into account overheads and the cost of being able to put a warranty on a bike
That’s all well built it. We are quoting full RRP prices that already have a good mark up on.
Makes me feel even better after buying new TCR Advanced 1 for 2k 😊
Great video! It really makes me wonder why people would want carbon spokes at this point, seems like a massive hassle for the benefits it gives.
Regarding the bikes, I would assume that there is way less demand for their top of the range bikes and thus making the profits larger. Makes no sense to design a new frame and sell only a few hundred of them with the same margins as a mid tier bike. The people who buys those are probably not concerned about +/- 500€ difference.
Yeah the integrated seatpost isn't a big deal unless you buy a new bike every few years. Even then they resell really well. I'll probably get the SL frame and swap everything over since I've never ridden the other frames and dont want to be disappointed. I do have a '17 Crux Expert and it's pretty stiff.
Agree 100% with your comments buy an advanced pro frameset if you can get one. An Ultegra disc groupset from merlin some windspace hoops (don't want hookless anyway) other bits ebay save Ks
One can assume that profit for bike companies are laid out the same as it for car and most any consumer electronics company. Lower end products are a commodity that requires volume to produce a discount, where as the higher end models require more direct profit due to the lesser volume. I specify CE products daily and margin is distributed this way across all product lines. Samsung TV's as an example can have 5% margin to the dealer at the low end and 30% on the high end. Ultimately the reality is that companies and dealers can not support themselves on 5%, so producing lines that have higher margins is required for sustainability. These examples are everywhere in the car industry as well. Toyota/Lexus, Hyundai/Genesis, or going from the BMW 2 series to the 8, one can bet the 8 has substantial more mark up than the 2.
But then again, I can also assume a bunch of us bought a more expensive model because it had a better paint job. Because cosmetics improve as you go up the line as well.
At the minimum I’d say the pricing structure has the end of year or worst case scenario discounts built into the amount already so they all still make a profit.
So much truth spoken here; All buyers have to deep dive in to the bicycles market.
On My camp, I prefer lighter rim brakes even though the TCR 105 mechanical disk brakes was very tempting, price, brake performance and parts future proofness.
One more point that truly makes a big difference is to get the nearest Giant exact size.
Not all dealers You parts to swap and pay for. Start by contacting a few Giant dealers and speak to guys who have some fitting experiences with TCRs.
Anyhow, a few days ago, for a sale price of $1800 USD Got My Giant TCR Advance Compact 2 Pro Compact/Non-Compact (Got it sold with Sub-Compact Chainrings, that I prefer anyway). Install My new I-can Aero 45s on DT-Swiss 240s and Sapim X-Rays spokes, plus will ad Dura Ace 9100 Mechs/Brakes and some Enve bars that I already have on another bike and will only purchase an Enve carbon stem and all put together it'll get to UCI racing continental levels of just a few years ago.
In other words I feel very satisfied with all the TCR Goodness!
Cheers!
Another great period of information.
I might add to your viewers. Don't get hung up on a single product or brand. Frames for example. There may be three or four that would suit your need or desire. Just because you cant get a "Giant", doesn't mean there isnt an equivalent.
Nice video thanks.
The only reason the Giant contacted you was due to embarrassment over being called out for profiteering. Are Giant going to review their pricing and reduce their prices accordingly (by about 40% I would suggest)? Also remember that the price we pay for groupsets is far more than companies like Giant, who purchase thousands of groupsets and probably pay less than 50% of what we pay. They are raking the profits in - go the self-build and second hand route - tons of decent equipment out there - I bought a Dura Ace 7800 groupset for less than £300 recently and it has little wear on it.
Yes. You are right.
That's why I'm still riding a 2017 TCR Pro 0 with an old 10spd shimano Ultegra (Still works beautifully) groupset. I must admit though, everything else on it is updated to carbon parts where possible (bars, seat, wheels, cages) and all bought second hand for next to nothing. Love my mechanical groupset and caliper brakes and doesn't hold me back in the crits.
Heinz’s ketchup here in the USA is garbage because it contains high fructose corn syrup (last I checked). They probably offer a version without it, but most other countries HFCS isn’t even permitted to be added to foods.
Everyday a school day. Wow.
@@Mapdec in USA: TOMATO CONCENTRATE FROM RED RIPE TOMATOES, DISTILLED VINEGAR, HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP, CORN SYRUP, SALT, SPICE, ONION POWDER, NATURAL FLAVORING. Other countries(UK): Tomatoes, Spirit Vinegar, Sugar, Salt, Spice and Herb Extracts, Spice. Up to you to decide if HFCS is how much worse than pure sugar. Plus in UK it’s made from tomatoes, not from concentrate.
Content are always on point! We all need a LBS like this. Best bike for the money in the USD 8,300 range? Stock vs Build up?
Time ADH, FFWD Ryot wheel, Rival AXS.
Thanks for the follow up and the detail explanation on the reason for these price points, plus the component breakdown value estimates. Totally side question: I am very much looking forward to a video of yours reviewing the new Look 795 Blade RS, do you see it happening in the near future?
It was launched yesterday. Awaiting delivery
@@Mapdecvery much looking forward to it!!!
Nice that there at least got in touch as I deal with Orbea mostly on my channel and sent 300 email just for info on stuff to pass on to my viewers and have never had a reply
It will come as your channel grows I’m sure.
An important difference between the pre-built Advanced and Advanced Pro bikes are the components that come with it - Advanced come with their quite basic "Contact" components while the Advanced Pro come with much much better "Contact SL/SLR" components which are far stiffer and lighter.
So when you say you were able to "flex" an Advanced bike, and now that we have agreed that its the exact same frame as the Pro, I wonder how much of that "flex" came from the base level components. It would be interesting to compare the stiffness between the two while running the same components like the SL/SLR. Now that would be a conclusive way to say that the OD2 fork is actually stiffer than the OD.
@@Lenser That's right. The SL components are lighter but are not stiffer (typically 6061 vs 7075). The carbon SLR stuff is hard to predict other than being way expensive.
Good follow up. I think one piece of the puzzle you’ve missed is the whole bike leasing market. It mostly don’t work on framesets or are difficult to arrange with workshops that customizes bikes. And a few hundreds in the listing price don’t change leasing rates significantly.
Leasing?
@@Mapdec yes, subsidized work related leasing schemes. I think in the Uk it’s called cycle to work scheme or something like that. In Germany it’s private providers, the largest one is called Jobrad
Thank you for the invaluable insight. I really wish more bike shops were like yours. I would also like to build a bike together with a bike shop, pick out all the parts etc. But the part of the world where I'm from, most of the bike shops don't like it when you buy anything other than a completed bike from them. They don't like it when people DIY things or buy parts elsewhere and bring it to them for advice or assembly. Before I did everything DIY, a bike shop charged me ~40 GBP for a cable change. I didn't know any better, so I paid up. What a load of scammers.
Who needs that when I've got youtubers like yourself, PT, hambini and instructions from Park Tool.
Glad you enjoyed it. Cost of that does seem a bit high, but possible if it is really awkward routing like though a full suspension chainstay and weird BB configuration.
@@Mapdec It was an old Giant Defy 4 from 2013. It has externally routed exposed cables. The cable replacement probably cost a quarter of the value of the bike itself.
Giant are great. I have 2022 tcr advanced pro 0 ultegra 12spd di2 and 2022 giant revolt advanced 0. And they are great. Wouldn't swap them. Would step it up another notch and do a custom build with tcr or propel sl frame if they are still as desirable to me as they are now in a few years when it's new bike time
For a long time the discounts the big name brands could get on componentry made buying complete a better value proposition. Last time I did the comparison (2010?) it was still better even though I was going to replace the stock wheels immediately. Interesting how these things change. My latest project was a self build though because I got such an amazing deal on the frame: basically half price because of 1mm paint defect! I think anyone who wants to explore this needs to factor in the labor cost of the build - and the availability of someone competent to do it, or make sure they have (or can learn) the skills themselves.
Sure. Building a bike with fresh parts is not that much. 2-4 hours Maybe. Sourcing parts can take ages at the moment. Tri bikes can be an all day job.
@Mapdec Takes me a lot longer than that, especially with internal cabling. But I probably don't do it as often as you.
Good advice . Hope to get a TCR pro 1 frame. Put on a Shimano 105 or ultrgra di2. Already have Hunt 50 s. Probably 3/3.5. k total.
Perfect
Can you make a compreensive list of components and prices? At least for me here in Europe, I can't get to this value.
For example, a tcr advanced pro 1 is around eur 4500. While building a ultegra di2 + wheels + plus frame + plus kit, is much much more.
@@andreortizdecarvalho the advanced pro 1 in the vid is 2x11 mechanical Ultegra. About £800
Does anyone else think this guy looks like he should be helping Frodo to take a ring back to mordor...
Hello. Person in video is real and reads comments 🍆
@@Mapdec Hello, you must have been told you look like sean astin before
Just got a great deal on a 2022 Giant Revolt Advanced Pro 1 from a dealer making room for 2024 inventory. Love it, and I couldn’t possibly have built it for the price.
Since this video was made everything is on sale.
Interesting that you can find components cheaper than your trade price at some online retailers. I just started out this year and spent quite a bit of time setting up trade accounts with component manufacturers, and I've come to the same conclusion. So I have my trade accounts now, but still buy most of what I need from the cheaper online retailers, which then means I'll probably never get better trade deals with the manufacturers in the future due to the low volume that I'm generating. It's a funny business. 🙂
You will need those accounts to help your customers with warranty. Remember this one thing. Your customers are infinitely more important than your suppliers. If you have customers you will always find companies willing to supply you with stock and parts.
I'm 99% sure my next bike will be fully custom, self-bought components. Not just because it's not more expensive (if I don't account my own time, which I don't bc it's just a hobby), but also because I can fully focus on the frame being exactly like I need it, as well as bike-fit critical components (bar and stem, cranks, saddle) which usually aren't perfect on full builds and I don't wanna go through the hassle of replacing and flipping stock components.
Hmm interesting... you just stopped me from buying a 105 giant propel. I didn't realise the fork would have such a profound effect
I just received my TCR Advanced Disc 1+ with Shimano 105 Di2 and the SLR1 wheel set. Great value at USD$4K. My FTP in the high 200s, so not a ton of flex for me.
I ride the same bike with a max power of 1600 (thanks track) and don't have any issues with a bit of flex so don't listen to all the bullshit about "flex".
Giant bikes used to be really decent values, but since COVID, they have turned to the dark side. I am hoping after the economy craters, things will return to normal. Everyone is still gouging.
Most, if not almost all businesses did this, no matter their field of operation. It's not just bikes, it's everywhere.
@@twillyspanksyourcakes yep, agreed. Giant has just always been the good value/quality brand, and now covid has sunk them into the a low value tier. I have seen Treks spec'd nicer than the giant recently.
Weird how you want massive unemployment and potential homelessness so you can have cheap bikes.
@@JoshuaTootell There's a small difference between cheap and overpriced, and everything is going towards overpriced lately, just so shareholders can be appeased with increasing profit margins. They act like there is unlimited money and growth. Newsflash, there isn't. The greed seems to be unlimited though.
@@JoshuaTootell are you saying all the profits from price gouging go to employee's pockets? Man's clearly trippin on aceeeeeeed.
FYI when comparing the lowest model TCR to the next one up and still finding a short fall of £500 this is due to the wheels. The TCR advance only comes with the SL2 wheels....
The PRO comes with the SL1 wheels it's a different rim and hub 👍👍
We talked about that. No real difference. DT internals vs non branded DT internals. Rim shape marginally different. Nothing that affects cost much.
@@Mapdec personally I think they're older wheels are better being hooked.
I believe the only other difference as u say is the fork plus PM.
I purchased my TCR my moons ago now back in 2019 a pro 1 rim brake with SL1 wheels and an Ultegra R8000 mechanical groupset for £1900 in a sale from pedalon it's been a great bike. I wouldn't pay the prices they ask today however. It's beyond laughable
@@Mapdec The SLR 1 should be around 100g lighter and hookless.
Bought a 2023 Winspace Hyper r33 wheelset last august, they come with 3 extra spokes (carbon) as standard.
I believe they sell spokes separately as well.
Also had the wheels serviced at my local bike shop, and the spoke tension is listed in the user manual.
I'm 6 ft. 4", 97 kg and a reasonably powerful rider.
What frame would you recommend for maximum stiffness (please say Time)?
I ride Canyon Ultimate CF SL at the moment, and i've had both their top frame SLX and the entry level CF frame.
I believe they are identical, except for the different types of carbon used...?
Actually, i might argue that the entry level Endurace CF frame, was the stiffest.
The Time bikes are very stiff and weirdly very smooth with it. Usually stiff bikes can vibrate a bit. Come and try one.
ALWAYS buy spare spokes with you new wheel/wheelset. Rgr
Awesome video love your content! Just want to add some info about giant wheelsets (probs cadex aswell) Bought a TCR Pro from giant retailer, and now giant will not give me the spoke tension specs because it is proprietary information!! This is because of there Dynamic Balanced Lacing (DBL). So yeh you do not know if the spoke tensions are correct and when spokes come loose well yeh you are paying everytime for a wheel true and tensions. Beware before buying any giant wheelsets.
P.s. also hookless not a big fan, just have a look at peak torques vid about Sram now wanting to GLUE the hooks back on hookless rims 😂
Dynamic balanced lacing…. Does that mean the lacing changes as the balance changes, that makes no sense. What does that even mean
@Mapdec The drive side has different spoke tensions to the non driveside. According to giant
'Dynamic Balanced Lacing approach, opposing spokes have different levels of tension when the wheel is static. But when a rider applies pedaling force as the bike is being ridden, the spoke tensions balance out.'
So really guess work of what spoke tension is needed on each side without the tension specs!
I'd really love if you could someday get your hands on Ceepo frames and test it. They are not very expensive and there was a time you would see those being used in Ironman events.
My old workplace sells their frames, mainly the Stinger and Mamba-R. Based on my ex-boss' experience, they don't suffer much from BB shell tolerance issues. They're stiff too.
Almost every Ceepo model is aero-optimised, so you could say they're the OG of "aero is everything".
@@yonglingng5640 I'm thinking of buying the Mamba-R as I could then use for regular rides and also Ironman 70.3. Good to know you only heard good about it. Hard to find any videos in English about this bike brand/model.
@@HarishChouhan Yes, when I tried to research more about Ceepo, especially the reviews, I'm surprised it's more unheard of than I expected.
Due to the Stinger's mechanical design, I can actually see myself riding it. A stiff, good-quality aero frameset that costs less than RM10,000, this isn't a bad deal.
@@yonglingng5640 The Stinger was on sale in Thailand last month. 40% off :).
TCR Advance pro1 vs pro2 , is not only power meter. There is Ultegra group set compare to 105 and wheels, SLR1 vs SLR2. The price differents in components is more then 500$, you were missing. But I agree the description on the website is not entirely clear , and they could do it better.
It's very likely that the small "elite" bike building employee pool that it is, is being sent to eBikes. It's far more complicated than analog. Things like price reduction or putting in extra attention on non eBikes might be loosing traction. Plus, the high analog price subsequently pushes E-Bike value.
Sad.
Oh. Good theory
A lot of good advice. I agree 100% at the minute building is cheaper - if you can get the stuff u want is frameset. But I’ve had 2 tcrs an advanced rim and now a pro 0 sram. I’m 15stone. 5’10. I can sprint over 1000w for 15 secs. I can’t flex either bike at all. From all reports the cadex wheels are fast but very firm I wouldn’t buy them. And the sl - lighter? What is lighter really? Maybe an aethos or ultimate cfr but it’s near 2k more for the frameset and neither are more aero. Stiffer? Well they’re advertised as the best stiffness to weight in their category. Can’t be too bad :) I think tour magazine has all this reported. If it was good enough for Greg van avermaet to win on I don’t think there’s going to be anything performing a lot better. Looks and desire is a different talking point…
Regarding your TCR value proposition argument, when do Giant release their annual bike range? I'm pretty sure it was before SRAM released their Force refresh, and the first generation Force was heavily discounted. How many other bike brands are still charging full price for their 2023 mid-tier first-generation SRAM Force equipped bikes?
This is why I didn’t dwell on that part of the range and nor did they. They are virtually sold out and new models are just on the website. Crazy prices though.
I bought advanced SL frame during EOFY Sale for 2k cheaper AUD, grouped with a Ultegra groupset that was roughly 280g heavier than dura ace but could make that up with a Chinese titanium cassette and crash replacement warranty Zipp 404. 0 benefit buying a complete bike from Giant when you can pick and match a bike parts cheaper than a prebuilt and higher quality.
It's not clear to me what frames are exactly the same? The advanced disc and the advanced disc pro 2023? So, accept for the carbon wheels and steerer that come with the pro, they are the same? I asked 3 dealers the same question today because I found different claims on the web. They all said the same: different steerer of the fork and an aluminium chainstay on the non pro version, with a layer of carbon.
I tapped the frames, next to each other and you could clearly hear the difference. The difference on the fork steerer was visual (as you stated). I wanted to go for the pro version cause of the less flex frame and the carbon wheels...
The problem i have is that the product names, and especially the website, are a mess. Giant make it difficult to understand the different bike models. Adding to that, there are differences by model year. And, I'm looking at bikes avaiable in a different country, but also checking the USA website to try to make sense of things. I have to make a pretty detailed spreadsheet just to comprehend the options
Great point
Did Giant brought up that they still have Giant TCR aluminium Aluxx SL/SLR (albeit for some reason only available in certain Asia region)?
wouldnt the TCR aluxx be as good or stiffer than entry TCR Advanced carbon?
I have the 2021 TCR Alu , but i dont have TCR Advance to compare to
Oh. We don’t have those here.
Maybe the Giant caller is not a bicycle mechanic probably a suit.
I can assure you the man from Giant is definitely not a ‘suit’
Have you seen or come across the Elves Falath Eve frame yet? With all these parts on sale I am interested in trying to do a custom build with one. I see Cam Nichols should have a review soon. Would be good to get your thoughts?
I haven’t seen one. It’s not something I’m that interested in at the moment. Maybe if the reliable brands I trust keep throwing out £5k frame sets like they are I might change my mind. While there are still some frames at £2-3k the risk : reward isn’t in balance for me yet.
@@Mapdec What frames do you recommend that are available that are mainstream. Looking at your videos Time bikes would be good frames to look at.
Ouch, quality isn't free checking their prices. Ill keep looking at frames, take my time wait for the situation to change maybe later in the year
@@garethbutton just watched Cams video. Fancy a fibre glass bike.
@@Mapdec yeah it’s the latest thing 😂😂. I’ll keep snooping round need to save some pennies first anyways.
And yet they're still miles better value than most of their competition at the high end. Here in Australia at least. The top of the line TCR SL with dura ace, cadex wheels and all the carbon bling is only $13k AUD. Compare that to most of the other world tour level bikes and you're looking at their Ultegra level offerings at that price point.
Converting that to UK £s is around £7k. You could buy a brand new Royal Enfield Interceptor motorcycle for less than that. All of these 'world tour' type bikes are very much over-priced.
@@worldofameiso5491 I guess you could if you wanted a motorcycle for some reason. Can't imagine the desire personally but I won't yuck your yum.
Top tier bikes are definitely overpriced for what they are but as it goes, Giant is on the cheaper end of that particular market (along with direct to consumer brands like Canyon and Cube)
@@KD_cycling Fair comment, I was just trying to relate the relative value for money between the motorcycle market and the bicycle market.
@@worldofameiso5491 I see where you're going with it but I'm not sure that drawing a comparison between the two is all that useful. Motorcycle prices benefit greatly from the economy of scale and production line construction compared to bicycle manufacturers. Also comparing a top of the line race bike to an economy motor bike isn't really a great comparison IMO. I'd compare our $13k TCR to a motorbike that you could race at the top level. I'm not a bike guy but a Yamaha R1 (that's a fast bike right?) is about $30k AUD. Are you really getting $23k more motorbike for your money compared to the Royal Enfield? Probably not right? The point being that at the luxury end of a market (bikes, motorbikes, cars, computers) value kinda takes a backseat to our desire to have nice things. Sure some of what you pay for is increased engineering costs (lightweight parts, wind tunnel testing etc) but mostly just our desire to have the best of the best. Rip off is pretty much baked in.
@@KD_cycling So we agree then, the bicycle manufacturers are ripping off the customers. If you are not a professional, you do not need to spend that much money on equipment, it is merely some people's vanity. As for economy of scale, Giant makes around 6.3 million bikes every year worth nearly $2 billion. In contrast, Royal Enfield make just about 1 million motorcycles every year. So you cannot suggest that Giant does not have the economy of scale and extraordinary buying power with equipment manufacturers like Shimano.
I bought the giant tcr adv sl team frameset then sauced best deals on red axs parts, zipp 353 NSW WHEELS , pro earo bars , giant connect slr stem, for £8000, this bike would be over £11000 if i could buy from Giant…..
Awesome
Hello hello, I wanted to ask what is Mapdec's take on Merida bikes?
I'm from Poland, and they're prominent brand there, I see that in the UK they're not very well recognized. I find Merida bikes one of the best options when looking Value for money, just side by side with Giant. What is your take on the brand?
ps. I'd love to see your take on their Reacto 4000, absolutely gorgeous bike 🤩
This is why I bought a mint 2nd hand TCR pro frame for £1k and new 12spd Ultegra di2 for £1500, borrowed the slr2 wheels of my defy and boom super bike for £2.5k 🤙
That! Is the way to do it!
Could you expand on your comments and opinions of the TCR (non-SL) frame being flexible? Especially the one with OD1. I'm quite confused about whether I should buy a TCR with normal OD steerer or pay more for a model with OD2. I don't think I want their hookless carbon wheels but I think any model that has OD2 has the carbon wheels.
I've seen tons of reviews but they ALL review higher end bikes with OD2. So I haven't heard much about how the bikes with OD1 feel.
I'm 63 kg and make racing type power but not super high. I'm much more concerned about stiffness around the bottom bracket though. I'm not really wrestling with the front end often, and when I do I guess I'm not super concerned about it flexing some there. But... you know... how flexible is flexible? I don't want a noodle bike.
I've been able to look up some stiffness test numbers. These are from the German TOUR magazine's testing:
2021 "TCR Advanced SL DISC":
- Bottom Bracket: 71
- Headset: 104
- Fork: 64
2021 "TCR Advances PRO DISC" (I think this would be the OD2 bike)
- Bottom Bracket: 63
- Headset: 93
- Fork: 68
2021 "TCE Advanced DISC": (I think this would be the OD1 bike)
- Bottom Bracket: 63 (a bit low, but not as bad as bikes from Pinarello or Trek)
- Headset: 97 (which is comparable to most other bikes)
- Fork: 62 (comparable to other bikes. Actually still higher than many other popular models from Cannondale, Canyon, etc.)
Looking at these numbers, I guess if I should be concerned about something, it would be the BB stiffness.
[ a note: actually I do also think about getting a CAAD13. But, I cannot buy one in the country where I live now, so I'd have to buy it while traveling... and.. I already have a crankarm power meter on a shimano 105 crankset. So there's the issue of needing to either use a bottom bracket converter part, or get a new powermeter. These complexities are actually why I came back to looking at the TCR, because I can easily buy a TCR where I live)
At 63kg I don’t think you will give the frame any trouble. I’m a strong 85kg rider and I can flex the steering to the point it feels nervous in turns and out of the saddle moves.
@@Mapdec thank you
Which bike or brand is the most valued in your opinion? In pro peloton brand. I would like to hear from pro mechanic.
Kudos to the video 👍
The most valued…. As in sought after, holds value, proud to own, gets attention. Probably LOOK. You will always get noticed, be very proud of it and it will always sell on at a good price.
If you meant, best value for money. In terms of performance per £. Probably Canyon. Quality per £, TIME.
A mix of all of that…. Ridley maybe.
@@Mapdec thank you for your reply!
I'd give this video and it's predecessor multiple thumbs up if I could.
That’s very kind.
I see dura ace can be picked up for £2,500 at the moment. My bike shop are telling me its £3.5k to potentially add to a build. Is the £2,500 just a temporary price with the issues they are currently having or do you think it will continue to sell for this? Thanks
Who knows. Ask them to price match or just buy it online and ask them to fit it. Did you see our custom build vid? We give up making money on groupsets.
@Mapdec yes I watched that last week. Trying to find videos I have not watched now 😅. They have said they will look at the total package so see what happens. Said Look have not come back with prices or dates yet on availability so 🤷. Admittedly just sold my bike and will be on the turbo until March time so no rush.
Idk I haven't been able to make my tcr flex, stiffest bike I've owned (out of Rose pro sl 2014, merida reacto 2011, merida cyclocross, felt s22 2009). Got 340w ftp, 1400w sprint, although I am light and short. Raced national crits on it.
Great news that Giant called you to discuss what you said on the video, but it sounds like they couldn't fully explain the missing money, maybe they will review their pricing??
As for Cadex wheels with only a few dealers being able to repair or service them and being hookless, it just sounds like you will be buying into a whole world of pain, sorry not for me🙄
Maybe the frames weren't available easily on their own, because Giant thought people who do custom builds and spend less with Giant??
I can't hear about flexing anymore
As always great advise sir, to bad you are on the other side of the ocean 🤙
Will you do some overview videos from Eurobike?
No. I’m here in the workshop working hard.
@@Mapdec At least you won't bump into any Industry shills creeping around for freebies! :-)
SLR1 and SLR2 use hookless technology. I did not know about that when I got my TCR and my dealer did not even bother to tell me that huge detail. to resume, the entry level carbon wheels from Giant are shite, I rather get a set of winspace to train and race . Furthermore, my TCR frame as a huge miss alignment with my BB. when my right crank is moving from 9 to 12 (clockwise) the aluminum arm is rubbing against the chain and the front derailleur.
That’s unlikely to be BB alignment. It’s also unlikely to hit your rear mech. It will be 400mm away from the BB and the cranks are at most 175mm. What’s more likely is that your chainrings are best and your front mech is misaligned.
@@Mapdec sorry 😅, I meant front derailleur. the frame is size M and I am using a 172 mm cranks. I have tried almost everything to fix the rubing and this only happens when using the 52 in combination with 11/12/13 rings, the rubbing noise despair if the derailleur is in trim position. (no further solution was provided from the giant branch in my country).
If you don’t know the steerer is stiffer as you move up the frame range, how does that differentiate the frame?
I do have a Giant Defy Adv Pro 2 bought partly on Hambini’s view, at the time, of different brands carbon frames. The cable routing around the bars, stem, head tube is the most abominable thing I’ve seen on a bike. I bought the bike unseen, in lockdown, and couldn’t believe what I was looking at when it arrived. So even if the frame is great carbon, the overall design of stem, stearer and head tube is pretty dire. I think that model design lasted one year and I just got unlucky, although a brand as big as Giant should have done better.
Oh yeah. The defy has those weird cable guides that destroy cable outers.
@@Mapdec thanks, that’s reassuring. So I spent £3.5k on a ‘quality’ Giant bike whose cable routing eats cables, you can’t adjust the handlebar height without cutting the stearer and you can’t turn the stearer and bars for packing. I’m wondering if it’s fit for purpose. And the tiny screws that secure the cable outer guides to the stem are made of cheese. Pretty disappointing to put it mildly.
I find Giant engaging but utterly o e sided when it comes to issues .With a clearly oversized BB I got " it's lack of maintenance that created it " then " it's been stripped of resin I the BB " First time the bb was removed and it was clearly set in with compound to fill the gaps ,that's what stripped it out .
The only offer was £600 for a new frame in a bog standard colour .
What was the outcome
@Mapdec The owner of the bike didn't want black as that was the only offer he had ,it was a beautiful orange frame .Managed to make it work with a Wheels Manufacturing Threaded pressfit and a few tweaks
not that long ago i could have bought a brand new storck road bike with full 105 for around 1300.
Very true
So Advanced and Advanced Pro got the same frame? Is this for real? Are they both made in Taiwan? I have the Advanced version and I don’t remember seeing that silver “made in Taiwan” sticker (2021 TCR Advanced disc 2 105 version).
Apparently, until they hit the paint shop and have a fork installed they are the same. 🤷♂️
@@Mapdecthis has been true for years, and for this reason the base model with a normal steerer diameter is the best choice - and cheaper to boot!
Yes. Same frame, both have a full carbon fork + steerer, only difference is the OD vs OD2. Applies to all TCR since the last facelift.
Good better best is basic psychology. Having less options or more options is less optimal.
Winspace have a spoke tension chart available with a link in their user manual. Poor example.
Not really. It’s not on their website anywhere I can see. I would still need to email them, order and spoke and ask for the tension numbers. At least I could do this, with Cadex I would just be told to direct the rider to a Cadex dealer no matter how far away they were.
The disc 1 has slr 1 wheels and ultegra. Weight saving.
As discussed, virtually no discernible difference
@@Mapdec IMHO, ultegra shifts smoother than 105 (mechanical)
Just upgrade your cassette. The rest is the same.
It’s not just giant. Trek Specialized do the same.
What’s fhe stiffest frame you’ve ever tried?
Oh. Would be tough to say. A Pinarello Dogma, my old CAAD10, the Time ADH (but weirdly smooth too). The old Cannondale SystemSix, that thing accelerated like a rocket and then shake you to death. The Look Alp D’Heuz has to be up there. An S-works Sl7 or Sl6. Oh. The Scott CR1. Oh. It’s too hard.
@@Mapdec wow so many. Thanks for your input. I was assuming that for heavier guys like me (90+ Kg) stiffness would be the priority in frame selection. My assumption is that comfort comes from picking a frame and cockpit components of the right size, and use as wide tires as the frame allows. Would all this be correct? Keep in mind we're talking about a MAMIL with no dreams of glory, except the random summer sportive and occasional 150+ Km rides. :D
@@c4p3fi3rrThat's right, you're getting the idea. Endurance bikes are usually more compliant especially if they have some vibration-dampening features, such as Bianchi's Countervail, Specialized's Future Shock, Trek's IsoSpeed, etc.
Kind of. At 90kg you will be challenging the stiffness of a lot of bikes. Especially if you like to attack a climb or lean into a hairpin a bit. Stiffness doesn’t mean discomfort, it can do, but mostly it’s about power transfer, handling, etc.
Look at Vitus bikes, now best value out there
Careful not to confuse value here and get a frame basicly just good enough to hang components off.
Only cadex can repair the wheel. Sounds like a scam to me.
always frame up :)
Just a bit of INFO for the bargain hunters out there. BikeInn is legit, but with a caveat. they will send your delivery to the UK with vat and pay any charges, great. I bought a gruppo and paid 11 quid to deliver. HOWEVER. If you need to return anything it takes forever. The returns to the UK centre are quickm (as it's domestic post), but then they CONSOLIDATE all the returns (so yours and everyone elses) and send them (via sea I think) back to Spain. So you're looking at like 4 to 6 weeks end-to-end for the return and refund when buying from the UK. However, having said that, there's no brexit BS ordering from them and the prices are great, so do it!
Good info
...but TCR frame IS noodly compared to SuperSix Evo
Won't you pay tax and duty with Bike Inn? thought they were in the EU.
Yes. That price included tax though.
Well, could there be any better validation of what you are doing here on CZcams than a phone call from Giant? I think not.
I like your videos, but this one felt defensive. Your argument about Cadex (carbon spoke) wheels applies to almost every other expensive wheels with carbon spokes. They don't have dealers in every single city.
Fair enough.
@@Mapdec Please don't stop making such videos though :). beginner cyclists like me don't realize this. I used to think buying a full built is cheaper, until I realized I have to change the tires, handlebar/stem and get a different crank arm. Getting a frame and then building things up makes more sense now. The Giant bike prices in UK is cheaper than Vietnam but if always someone selling Ultegra/DuraAce Di2 or mechanical groupsets (with almost no scratches) for under $1000 USD.
Heinz is one of the worst ketchups I've had :P But it must be a cultural thing, there's not much choice in UK, whereas in Eastern Europe there's a plethora of brands and choices!
I’m sure you can still relate to the analogy.
OK but there's not way you woke up and chose to style your hair that way
So why the big price difference in the TCR models if the only difference is more carbon in the fork? Piss take.
Just to differentiate
@@Mapdec thanks for these videos. With this and the recent Cam Nichols one with the elves frames and the info he received about the materials is awesome.
Advanced SL is different carbon to advanced
I suspect the paint is different as well. Not talking about colour, but quality and weight. My bare Advanced M/L rim frame is 1120g, which seems on the high side.
Giant and Hunt are best bike stuff companies I've ever dealt with.
Did you measure the amount of flex with some lab tools or just trash talking?
I have 2022 Giant TCR Advanced rim brake and the latest Scott Foil. Scott foil has even smaller steerer diameter and I rode both bikes when I was around 110 kgs and my FTP around 320 watts. The Giant TCR Advanced has a NORMAL steerer diameter which is standard for the road bikes. I think the flex that you mentioned is coming from your wheels or just from your imagination. I also have Giant TCR Aluxx bike and both bikes far better than aluminium. There are some tests published on these bikes stiffness rates and non of them show bad scores. You are misleading people.
You can check the TOUR magazine test results for some numbers.
You should have told them to figure out how to hide that weird external cable. I mean come on Giant its 2023, nobody buys external cable racing bike nowadays.
Riders who work on their own bikes exist and many of them don't want the hassle of integrated internal routing. Just like rim and disc brakes, we don't like being forced to use integrated internal routing. (before you say anything, I'm OK with both brake types and I can work on them)
You will never know the pain until you get your fingers dirty. It's very easy for people to say when they never do the dirty work.