Do you think Catherine was murdered and if so, by whom? Let me know in the comments below and remember to check out my Patreon at www.patreon.com/historycalling and my Amazon storefront at www.amazon.com/shop/historycalling
Don’t think she was “murdered” but certainly think King Henry had limited resources to ensure that her health would be neglected leading to an early death.
Metastasis from malignant melanoma can riddle the heart's 3 layers causing "charcoal heart". Generally, normal hearts weigh approximately 283.5 gms, but hearts with metastasis from malignant melanoma can weight up to approximately 2450 gms. Malignant melanoma is skin cancer and can be found anywhere on the body (on the scalp, arm pits, etc) and it only takes one.
As a Spaniard myself, I am proud of Queen Catalina. I can't imagine her suffering, after being a faithful wife for so many years and even having led the troops and won battles for her husband...
You shouldn't be proud she lied through her teeth about not consummating the marriage with Arthur because she was desperate to be queen and she ruined her daughter's life.
She ruined her chances for her daughter to marry young and have children by antagonising Henry who had every reason to divorce her, she lied to him about sleeping with his brother. She lied to the country as well, keeping everyone waiting to see if she was pregnant. She must have hoped she was, but when she found out she wasn't lied as she was desperate to marry the king.@@tammypike6177
@@jackdoe4632 There is contemporary evidence that she was being truthful: her duena, Elvira Manuel, wrote to Isabel letting her know about Catherine's condition and that she was still a virgin. Elvira would have known the consequences of playing false with royalty. It would have been very, very stupid of her to lie to Isabel.
Regarding her possible cancer diagnosis, I must first state that I have not reviewed the data pertinent to Catherine's death nor have I seen the heart in its postmortem state (duh). I rarely engage in speculation but with a period of 450 years to confound any accuracy, the following is based on 21st century medical practice through a very blurry lens. Secondary melanoma can manifest in bizarre ways but the historical descriptions wander into the fantastical. After 55 years in medical practice I have never seen a case remotely like that which is described nor do I think poison is likely. After her marriage falling apart and being treated like dirt, separation from her faith and her daughter and called a heretic, anyone would develop stress related illness. "Dropsy" as far as I know, is a medieval word for dependent edema, very frequently attributed to cardiomyopathy of an enormous array of types. My guess, and that is all it could ever be as I stated due to that very blurry and vast time lapsed lens, is that Queen Catherine died of cancer of some type that created some kind of heart failure. That's about as clear as any sane medical practitioner could be expected to state. MD PhD FACS
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, which I found very interesting to read and I'm sure others will too. I wish I'd had your brain to pick (which sounds rather gross when I phrase it like that, but you know what I mean) as I was writing up the script so that I could have included your theory.
@@HistoryCallingAgree completely with this. He believed as did all monarchs of his time that he ruled by Gods right. His decisions and thoughts were unquestionable. He didn’t kill her in my 21st century opinion.
@@HistoryCallingThing is had he acted sooner...that's if Catherine was poisoned, wouldn't that have put Henry in a very dangerous position with Spain as her most devout followers were waiting for an assination attempt of some kind, especially after all the threats for not signing the oath had failed. Its a tough one for sure. Got to admire Catherine's courage. One very brave lady. Please forgive typos, was my 3rd attempt at commenting, the ads kept kicking in...only just occurred to me to pause the clip😂
I think if he wanted to poison her he would have done it earlier and faster. Her death would by murder or anything looking like it would ruined his credibility in Europe as kather was related to half the ruler not withstanding charles the holy Roman empireror
Mary didn't die of cancer. There's no proof of cancer. She died during an influenza pandemic. She had two phantom pregnancies before that. She reported abdominal pain. But there is no definite cause and most historians agree it was the flu.
It's certainly possible. It may have been indirectly so. If a person has a close relative (parent, sibling, child) with cancer their own risk for cancer (any kind) is somewhat higher than average.
Poor Katherine died of a terrible broken heart. Used, abused, betrayed and separated from her beloved daughter. Her poor heart gave out from sheer sadness and grief. “Natural “ causes. Anne Boylen must have felt an icy stab in her heart that day. She was a highly intelligent woman, socially astute and knew Henry better than almost everyone else. Her ONLY salvation was a healthy, male baby. She knew it. She also knew there were young, fertile women waiting ( literally, ladies in waiting) in the wings to take her place. She must have had a few sleepless nights after Katherine’s death.
I'm a nurse who worked on a cardiac floor. A black or dark mass on the heart sounds like it could be cancer. I fail to see how her entire heart could be black inside & out & still function enough to keep her alive. I don't think the heart would turn completely black overnight. Just my thoughts. I'm not a doctor and could be out in left field.
Maybe the heart was purple due to hypoxia (the way lips turn blue/purple from it) and the bad lighting from candles. Just a thought from a retired ICU/Trauma RN
I’ve never thought that Catherine was murdered, poor lady. Cancer does seem to be likely, exacerbated greatly by the stress she was under. Not that Henry might not have been tempted, but the consequences could have been grave, politically, and he well knew it. As you said, Catherine being a Spanish princess, and Charles’ niece would have been problematic for Henry, had she been actually murdered. Thank you for the video! Well done, as always!
Thanks Terri. Yes, I don't think it would have been worth the risk for Henry to kill her and if he did want to do it, there was no need to wait that long.
Her heart was broken. She couldn’t even see her daughter. In his own way, Henry murdered her. He broke her heart and spirit, then disease could easily set in. If she hadn’t been a royal Spanish Princess, Henry and Cromwell would have figured out a way to have her head off.
@@NessaBear90I think it was a turn of phrase. A bad state of mind and sadness usually weakens one physically. If she was already ill, it’s entirely possible that her misery exacerbated said illness.
@@NessaBear90you absolutely can. Broken heart syndrome is the name. Effectively you have a heart attack shortly after your loved one dies. It happened to my grandfather.
I’ve always thought based on historical records that it was some form of cancer. But goodness knows Anne’s alleged comments, especially in relation to Bishop Fisher, did *not* help her case.
Yes, the cancer theory is discussed in the video (and to be honest I think it's the most likely explanation too), but I agree that Anne's comments and treatment of Mary and Catherine didn't make her (Anne) look innocent.
Catherine of Aragon is my favorite of Henry VIII’s queens. I don’t believe she was murdered by him or Anne. I believe it was cancer. Thank you for posting such amazing content!
I think part of the reason Henry hesitated so little with killing his second wife, is that he remembered how much of a mess it was when he didn't have the courage to kill his first. At the point when Catherine died, she was already out of the way
Yes, I agree that had Catherine gone quietly Henry might have been prepared to see if Anne would do the same, but I'm sure he knew that if he let her, Anne would have fought just as hard (though she would never have had the support of a powerful foreign family of course, so I don't think she would have been as strong an opponent as Catherine).
I also think it was because he had such a long history with Catherine. She knew him when sort of thing. Unlike Anne who he could just say, “Next”, I think Henry had an innate respect for Catherine that he couldn’t quite shake.
@@HistoryCalling Catherine didn't just have the support of 'a powerful foreign family' but also the love and loyalty of the English subjects who she had been very charitable towards for decades( having never forgotten when she living hand-to-mouth during her widowhood after Arthur's death while her father King Ferdinand V of Aragon and father-in-law Henry VII were haggling over whether to pay out/return her dowry). Despite Anne having been born an English subject, they never really liked her and resented her for Catherine's displacement. IOW, Henry had nearly as hard a time forcing them to grudgingly accept Anne as the new queen consort as he had in establishing the new Church of England. For all his bluster and threats, Henry wouldn't have wanted to risk open rebellion from them had he attempted to have Catherine railroaded much less executed (whereas, nearly everyone thought that the proud Anne was getting her comeuppance).It's interesting that some eighty years after Catherine's displacement and Anne's elevation, Shakespeare STILL made Catherine a sympathetic character in his play since all those decades later, Catherine's memory was held in high esteem (of course since Henry and Anne were the parents of the recently deceased adored Elizabeth I, Shakespeare took great pains to keep both of them sympathetic and shifted the WHOLE blame to Cardinal Wolsey). It also needs to be said that one reason that there would be widespread initial support for Mary I against Lady Jane Grey was due to her mother's memory (though Mary wasn't able to coast on those fumes for long).
@@HistoryCallingPersonally I think that if he had gotten away with hiding the murder of Catherine with poison he would absolutely have done the same to Anne instead of the public farce of execution. I think he genuinely fooled himself into believing all his actions were justified. He was the chosen scion of God in England…if god wasn’t giving him an heir it must be because God disapproved of the woman. People now make the mistake of viewing his actions and justification as being ludicrous and no one could believe them…but in that era with a bunch of yes men around and a heavy dose of narcissism you absolutely could.
Such a sad story. They started out as kindred spirits, and loved each other for many years before it all began to go awry. I feel pretty sure Catherine died from natural causes. Average life expectancy wasn't really very long at the time, medical care was often worse than the disease, and Catherine had spent years under terrific stress, which could have lowered her resistance to whatever did strike her. I don't know how comfortable her quarters were, how healthy her diet and lifestyle were, or how much care and attention her attendants were able to obtain for her when she began to fail. To say nothing of religious practices of the time, involving fasting and all kinds of self denial! All in all, Henry was probably indirectly, rather than directly responsible for her passing. Thanks for another great episode, HC!
Yes, I agree completely with what you're saying. Her living conditions (for a Queen/Princess) weren't great. Henry wasn't putting her up in the best, most comfortable houses. She was known to do things like fast, which would damage her health and you're spot on that 'doctors' were often more likely to do more harm than good.
Self denial and fasting are healthful practices. If you doubt that, look at the current state of human health worldwide in spite of the miracle of modern medicine.
@@Mrs.TJTaylorOh I agree with you. Once again, lack of knowledge and understanding can be disastrous, self denial can also be dangerous either way. Thinking about it though, hasn't Greed always outweighed Need? Not in everyone's case but it seems Greed is everywhere
Queen Katherine is my absolute favourite Tudor Queen, but I don't think Henry murdered her. However, I will say that the cruel treatment and stress that he put her through in the final years of her life didn't do her health any favours either.
I honestly don't think poisoning someone was Henry's style, it really doesn't fit with what we know of him. And I don't think Anne was ultimately capable of murder, even if she wasn't too upset about Katherine's death. Natural causes seems the most likely explanation, whether it was cancer or some other illness. Though Katherine's utter misery over Henry abandoning her and her unhealthy living conditions probably hastened her death.
I agree. He preferred public executions. After all he opted to tell the world that Anne Boleyn had cheated on him (even though it wasn't true), rather than quietly killing her and claiming it was natural causes.
Yeah because if he quietly killed his wives then he'd be obligated to treat them with the honors their position came with or continue dealing with them when he considered the problem gone
@@agatha6999It also would have gotten suspicious quickly if the King's wives kept suddenly dying from anything other then childbirth complications. It was hard enough to try and find Henry wife number 4 from the pool of European nobles. Imagine if he'd been seriously suspected of murdering not one, but two, wives! No one would have been willing to marry off their daughters to him. He basically ended up in that situation after the debacle with Anne of Cleve anyway.
I’m so glad you went back to the Tudors even if just for one video. Your historically correct videos have inspired me to see the British Isles. I’ll be there for 14 days this year.
Oh not just for one video. There's plenty more to come. I just need little breaks from them every so often :-) Have a lovely time on your visit too :-)
I always thought there could have been some type of ovarian cancer potentially for her due to her multiple pregnancies and stillbirths etc. The black mass sounds absolutely like it was cancer of the heart; but I would imagine the deep stress and pain she was experiencing made the process so much worse. It does make me wonder how long the cancer was working on her, if she had been sick for years! Poor Catherine. Rest in peace ❤ xx
I cannot imagine Henry and Anne celebrating or rejoicing in Catherine`s death if they had actively taken part in poisoning her. Surely there would have been some somber and pompous services and a funeral with every inch of black silk to be found in the whole kingdom.
A few historians have mentioned how after hearing the news both Catherine and Henry wore yellow, indicating that they didn't as Catherine had been a thorn in their side. I can't see them openly celebrating though either way as to me they would be saying 'Hooray we've finally got rid of her'. I don't think they would have risked that publicly, despite what they really felt at the time, it would gave made them look guilty.
I admit I have little good to say about Henry but I doubt he poisoned Catherine. He was so ruthless in many ways it amazes me he just didn't produce many illegitimate children and recognize one. ( I think there were a few supporters of Richmond) I know Henry had the power to recognize an heir before he died but he never used it. The wonderful irony is he had the steadfast Elizabeth under his nose all those years and didn't have a clue that she would become the leader he never was.
I know. I like to think he's very red faced somewhere about how fantastic his 'worthless' little second daughter turned out to be and about the fact that he's primarily famous today because of the women in his life.
Elizabeth definitely proved that women wasn't the weaker sex that's for sure. That a woman could be just as strong intelligent and fierce as any man given half the chance. To be honest I think I'd be more frightened standing I'm front of Elizabeth than Henry😂
@@kymrawlins8099I could not agree more with you, the greatest monarch and without any fear of contradiction the greatest queen England as had, and the last queen to have power absolute.
Thank you for another video! I don't think she was murdered, in spite of her own comments, enough people hated Anne enough to twist Catherine's death to fit their own narrative
Yes, some people claim that yellow was a sign of mourning in Spain, but I've never tracked down a reputable source for that. Anyways, when French royalty died I think the English still dressed in black and the colour of mourning in France is white.
@@HistoryCalling Yeah, I think the whole “yellow was a mourning colour in Spain” was just made up by Anne apologists. For all I could gather the colour of mourning in Spain was black, and sometimes white, though black was the norm. Philip II of Spain famously wore black from a point on to signify his “mourning” for his losses (though I’m not sure he felt any, but pr yk)
Yes, it was rare to get to be elderly, though if you didn't die as an infant and you survived childbirth, your chances of getting into your 50s and 60s were much better.
I don't know if you've heard of the book, Mortal Monarchs by Dr. Suzie Edge, but it's very good and talks about the monarchs and their causes of death from a medical standpoint. It's very interesting
I always thought she died from injustice & a broken heart. Keeping his daughter from her mother was demonic. I hope Henry is roasting as we speak. He caused so much pain & division just because he couldn’t keep it in his pants & had no respect for his own family. There are so many people still suffering due to the actions of men like that, especially due to Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Henry VIII, Martin Luther, etc
I'm baffled that Henry seemed to have thought Catherine's death would just magically fix his relationship with the Emperor. Even if there was no suspicion at all about whether or not he poisoned her, there's no way he thought the guy would just forget how poorly his aunt was treated because she was dead... maybe there's a cultural element to this I'm missing? It just seems like such a stupid thing to assume!
Thank you for your informative content. In brief, no I do not think that Catherine was poisoned or killed by the orders of Henry VIII. The main reason of my belief is that she was in a 'safe house' well out of his way, not at court, and he was occupied with his 'great love' Anne Boleyn. I would assume that Henry VIII knew that if Catherine's death was suspicious he would be held accountable by the Spanish and indeed Catholics in England and he would not want that suspicion to fall on his shoulders. I believe that she probably died of some form of heart cancer or disease.
You're welcome. Yes, I suspect cancer too. That black mass on the heart seems to imply that more than anything else and like you, I don't think Henry wanted to annoy the Spanish quite that much.
Cancer does make the area(s) its in, black. It also has a terrible smell. I think you are right. And the mass on her heart does make sense with cancer. Just as HC pointed out. Thank you for your comment. 😊
History calling if you ever make a video on Hollywood vs History on Anastasia Romanov you should use both 20th century fox films the Anastasia 1997 musical and Anastasia 1956 version staring Ingrid Bergman as Anastasia. Then you could say which one is the most accurate out of the two films and comparing them two. A bit like your Anne Boleyn Hollywood vs history video by the way great video I enjoyed this one
I have considered something on Anastasia actually, or rather the woman who pretended to be her in later decades, but I think that's who those movies are about.
What, no mention of that great (and obviously historically accurate) animated classic where the real Anastasia rediscovers her true identity with the help of her her long-dead family, now reincarnated as musical instruments? What a shocking oversight! 😊
I thought it was very common to attribute unexpected deaths at this time of famous persons to poison. Mainly because medicine was a mystery in itself. I don’t think even Henry would cause the direct death of a foreign princess either. The political ramifications of that would be too much even for him. For Katherine’s part, I prefer to think she died of a broken heart in a very real way as I truly believe she loved Henry even after he betrayed her. Such a sad end for a noble lady.
Yes, I think there were rumblings of poison in a number of cases where a natural death was convenient for a famous person's enemies. I can't see Henry killing her like this either though.
There's a bit in Michael Hirst The Tudors that I do think is true where the King says.. Catherine could raise an army just as powerful as any of her mothers. Henry ( the real one not a TV drama) would have known that Catherine was incredibly strong
I have always admired Queen Catherine of Aragon. (In fact, one year I dressed up in a green velvet costume with fur for a Halloween party -- my husband dressed as Henry, and we got an award.) Because she was my favorite, I have read books, articles, watched videos, and movies. I definitely think she was poisoned, the cancer notwithstanding. It could have been something as simple as an overdose of laudanum. Or it could have been done deliberately by her erstwhile husband. Let us not forget that this poison was supposed to be untraceable. That being the case, an autopsy would not have revealed it.
I've always thought that Anne's miscarriage was probably a result of poison. She miscarried after being seen to wear yellow at the news of Catherine's death. I could see Catherine's supporters angry and retaliating.
I think Catherine just died. With her having been in poor health already, and with the stress she was going through, it's no surprise that she died. Many people right before their death will have a rally, seem to be improving.
hello hc!! i’ve never believed the poison theory but wow this is quite compelling! wouldn’t be hard to believe that back then many people probably thought this had happened.
It's possible, but she and her daughter were very close and Anne was on thin ice after losing here little boy at birth. Shakespeare's play about Katharine has one of the most beautiful speeches based on truth.....people felt terrible for Katharine, unless they were bankers and ilk. The play is very hard to find, because the Henry side won.
Thank you for this video HC! I’ve been in the medical field most of my adult life and have been present at several autopsies. I cannot imagine what an “autopsy” like Katherine’s would have been. From today back over 450 years it would have been rudimentary at best. I believe they were “looking” for poisoning and a diseased and black colored heart would answer that request. So many good comments. You make all of us think outside the box with facts. Hope you have a great week and I LOVE your move to Monday!
Thanks Amy. :-) Yes, even without any medical background myself I can't imagine an autopsy by candlelight by people with a relatively rudimentary understanding of anatomy and illness is ideal.
If Henry had wanted to poison Catherine, he would not have sent her away, but kept her close, perhaps welcomed back to court as Dowager Queen or some such in order to allay any suspicions. He was angry with her stubbornness, but what is that when compared with his ultimate goal? He could have shown the utmost concern for his poor, delusional former consort, that by the grace of God was discovered to be nothing of the sort. He could have played it, and convinced everyone that although he now knew she had never been his true wife, he was still very fond of and concerned for her. And therefore, sent her the very best physicians and food and caregivers. And then bang, just like that, a stroke out of the blue! She's gone! Autopsy?? What? Desecrate the body of her former highness? Of course her death was innocent! Who would benefit from it? She no longer held power. ETC. Just saying. Fascinating video, and topic.
Thanks Mary-Lou (sorry, I'm not sure if there should be a hyphen or not). Yes, I agree if Henry wanted to kill her, there were many other ways to go about it and it could have been done much sooner.
It’s nice to see you went back to your roots. I love your deep dive on Tudor and late medieval period. Would you consider doing episodes on the York girls? The daughters of Richard duke of York and Edward IV. It will be interesting to hear and learn about the life of the more obscure members of the family. There probably isn’t that much information on the records but it will be a treat to hear your take one it. And I know it will be as interesting and educational as ever.
I am not an expert on this, but I believe that in this period neither operations nor autopsies were carried out by medical doctors. Such tasks belonged to the barber-surgeons. Thanks for another great video.
Certainly they weren't carried out by anyone we'd recognise as a doctor today. Honestly, early modern medicine was more likely to kill you than save you in my opinion. Just look at poor Caroline of Ansbach :-(
Yea, she died, several months later he married Jane and had a son a year later. He didn’t have the excuse of the churches ban from marrying your sister in law, whether or not consumption had occurred ( yes, the pope made an exception for Henry, who was at that point convinced that this sin was the cause of Gods wrath in not permitting him to have a son, which was solidified in his mind when he had a son with Jane. People forget that Henry had been studying as a Jesuit and was convinced that the church and the pope were corrupt.
What crap. There were no Jesuits while Henry was alive and the old testament is divided as to whether marriage of one's Brothers widow is allowed, there are eben passages making it mandatory in cases the brother died without a son.
I think it's definitely possible, but I don't think it's likely. Love the video! I miss attending lectures and watching your videos feels like I'm back in school! I love how much you research these topics!
I always love how Henry quoted the passage in the Bible saying not to marry your brother's wife. Totally disregarding another passage in the Bible that says if your brother dies without children you should marry his wife so that the brother's name would continue. That's practically an order for Henry to marry Catherine.
@@glen7318 Well George III and his wife were overprotective of his daughters to the point that despite having so many children, they barely had any grandchildren which could've caused less stress with the dynasty and given them alliances
I don't think it was murder. I think it was a mix of malnutrition, stress, and a undiagnosed/ untreated illness. I agree that if anne had a part in it, henry would have used that against her later and I don't think she hated her as much as we people think she did. Henry was the type to have someone else do it and in a way that would make him look good.
She was a faithful and virtuous woman, a noble woman. A good wife, good mother, and a good Queen. Unfortunately for her, she married a monster with no morals.
thank you for posting this! after recently finding out through ancestry dna that henry, catherine and mary are my ancestors, i've been gobbling up anything i can to learn more about my family across the pond
Hi history calling from previous topic about Anastasia yes both 20th century fox films the musical Anastasia film 1997 and The 1956 Anastasia film staring Ingrid Bergman both have references or have followed the same story line as Anna Andersen so yep it can be a Hollywood vs History video I think it would get a lot of views. If you haven’t seen them or only seen one of them I just don’t want to spoil what happens in both of these movies both the 1997 Anastasia film and 1956 Anastasia both are very good you will love them both I think. Also the comment earlier has got 5 likes already so the video could be very popular and gain a lot of views
I know it sounds weird to feel this definite about a historical point without concrete evidence, but one thing I'm convinced of is that Catherine never slept with Arthur. Even if she an interest to lie, I believe in her piety and honesty 100%. I think the evidence about Anne plotting to kill her is dubious, and sadly for Anne, as you point out, when Catherine died it actually made his marriage with Jane Seymour much easier and there was no question of his issue's legitimacy. I'm just finishing up reading the Wolf Hall trilogy, and it's interesting to see the contrast between Cromwell in the book and the real Cromwell. I know you probably have several million suggestions for future videos, but I would love to see one exclusively focused on Cromwell or one contrasting the real Cromwell versus his portrayals on film.
I just can't ever decide about her and Arthur. On the one hand it seems so unlikely that they never went at it (so to speak). On the other, I do generally trust her to have been a very pious and honest person, BUT she was known to lie on occasion (such as when she lied to her father about her first miscarriage back in 1510) and she did have her position and that of her daughter to protect in the annulment proceedings, so I really just don't know.
@@HistoryCalling Arthur was so young-perhaps he wasn’t capable of doing or didn’t want to do the deed! I agree, it does seem odd…but I can’t imagine, from everything else we know about her, her swearing yet lying about a fact that came to define her whole life so completely.
Brillant video as always. I personally never bought that she was murdered but rather her body gave out. Stress no doubt didn't help anything underlying. I've been through a lot of trauma and I have a plethora of chronic illnesses and when my last partner-a prime narcisscist much like Henry; left me - my illnesses were much worse. Besides the stress of what she'd recently endured she'd suffered so many miscarrages and still births which is bound to have an effect. I'm no medic but it's just my penny of thoughts! Also I could be wrong and don't recall the source but I had heard Henry did weep in private for Catherine xx
What always struck me about her long ordeal, besides the decades of degradation and abuse by her husband, was that she lived through so many miscarriages. She was isolated and constantly spied on and oppressed by deadly enemies. She held her head high and was thoroughly a queen throughout it all. Amazing woman. As she stood tall, Henry’s true character was revealed for all time. If not for her powerful connections, she would have been killed years earlier when she became an inconvenience to her monstrous husband. I think it likely she was not directly murdered by poison, but her terrible treatment over decades probably shortened her life.
Also while certainly there were poisonings in medieval England, both Nobel and Commoner… it would be more plausible at this time if it were the French Court we were speaking of, those palaces were nearly packed with poison and… poisoners. Great episode !!! Love a story with an unsolvable mystery. Five stars🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟
I'm with David Starkey (22:07) and his second point: stress. It can only be a guess, and only as a contributing factor, but imagine what her life was like with all that going on around her. Beyond the conflict itself and all she had lost, the separation from her daughter, the isolation she must have felt- everyone around her either longed for her death (and speculated openly about it) or wanted her to live as a weapon of spite.
Yes, the poor woman really had a miserable life much of the time, never more so than in her final 6 years or so. That certainly could have exacerbated her increasingly poor health.
@surferjoe1 They say stress can cause many physical issues now so it must have done back then as well. I can't see how it couldn't have played apart. The separation for Catherine and Mary was cruel, Catherine must have been heartbroken being denied access to her daughter
I think your logic is sound with the sarcoma. She most likely would of had edema in that case. Does the report mention swelling of the ankles or lower limbs? Good job. Love the illustration. I saw that one in the Rjiks museum when I stayed across the street from it for a month. Recognized it but don't remember the particulars. Thanks for all you do 🎉
No, I don't think Catherine was murdered. Cancer perhaps, brought on additionally possibly by the stress she had undergone. Had she been murdered, I'm sure Henry would have quite faced real and dangerous repercussions from Catherine's relatives. Thank you for another thoroughly entertaining and thought-provoking video. Regards from Sydney 🌞
It seems to me that it would be very unlikely that Anne Boleyn attempted to poison Queen Catherine. It would have been impossible for her to murder Catherine herself; she could hardly show up at Kimbolton in person. And if she paid or suborned someone else to kill Catherine, the potential for exposure was terrific. At best, she would have put herself in that person's power, and at worst that person might be caught and reveal her part in it. Anne was an intelligent woman. Even if she didn't understand (unlikely) that Catherine alive was her best security against Henry getting rid of her as well, she would hardly have put herself in another person's power by hiring an assassin.
HI HC. Will be watching later but thanks in advance for waht I'm sure is going to intersting and informative yet again. Was reading something about this recently. One name keeps cropping up - Gregory di Casale. Saying no more 😉
what are the possible reasons for gregory di casale to receive 8 gold coins? can we ever know that story? maybe henry was already being treated for syphilis? he was known to take potions. the ov ca connection to a heart ca is for me, valid. did female inbred dna affect more family than catherine and mary, who both presented with female ca symptoms? birthing trouble in the family is historic- henry's mother , daughter of edward IV, died from a late pregnancy, after many borths; and his grandmother also was affected by having a number of pregnancies,-didn't jacquetta die from heart disease brought on by being pregnant for so many years? fascinating family. jacquetta is a fav.
I don't think there was any need to murder her as Henry had already gotten her out of the way for Anne. Even following their divorce, she lived well and for the remainder of her life. If anyone wanted to poisen her, wouldn't they have done it while she was still legally married to Henry? I believe she died of cancer, as her autopsy revealed a black growth on her hearth, which was also black. I don't think there was a great understanding of cancer during those times. Henry clearly wanted to get rid of her, but not in that way. If he did, he would have had it done before he got together with Anne. Great video! It really got me thinking...
She was murdered, His maltreatment of her; withholding her daughter, withholding proper food and clothing. Denying proper medical treatment, Subjecting her to solitary confinement in cold castles without warmth or proper fuel , all contributed to her death and it was by his hand and approval.
Henry did not reduce her to a peasant. She was granted the title of Dowager Princess of Wales and was even granted lands commensurate to her position. Henry and Cromwell were at pains to prove to Charles that Catherine and Mary weren't being mistreated. There's a great online resource about Mary and Elizabeth's pre-ascension households, which goes into detail about land grants at the time.
Whoa. New fear unlocked: heart cancer. I didn't even know you could get that. Poor lady. I'd always thought it was some sort of abdominal cancer, like her stomach.
I had an uncle that wrote to his mother while he was in the army that he had cancer of the heart. Of course he was just lying because that’s what he does. He is, of course, despicable.
@@HistoryCalling I did promise that if I had a few extra £ in my weekly budget, I'd donate. You're very welcome and , yes, I love tour content. You don't state everything as fact and explain how you came by your information.
It's very much appreciated and I'm glad you appreciate my methodology as well, as not everyone does (particularly if I'm saying something they don't want to be true).
If Henry was willing to k I’ll l Catherine I would think he would’ve done it much sooner. By the time Catherine died he’d already married Anne. What would’ve been the point? The time to have killed her was much earlier when he was still trying to marry Anne. Not nearly ten years later when he was, at least by some accounts, already tiring of Anne. I don’t believe he killed Catherine. Though certainly stress and trauma can manifest in all types of illnesses. Being separated from her child with that child’s future at the whim of a cruel tyrant would be enough to make anyone sick onto death.
It just doesn’t make sense to me that henry would go through with the break from Rome etc and THEN kill Catherine. If he was going to murder her, why not do it before and save himself the trouble?
I would have thought that if she was going to be murdered then ut would have happened earlier rather than later. By the time she died, she had ceased to be the thorn in Henry's side that she was in the beginning.
I hadn't heard before about the contemporary poison rumors before this video. Considering that the contemporary autopsy found an obviously cancerous heart, that convinces me.
I also go with the diagnosis of Cancer (Uterine and Heart) for killing Queen Katherine, as Queen Mary also died of (Uterine) Cancer. There was always threats for ending Queen Katherine's marriage to Henry and also killing Mary so that there was always the chance for any of his male children could be put in place on the throne after King Henry died.
If Anne Boleyn was accused of being a witch amongst other things, I've often wondered why was there not a lot of suspicion of her involvement in Catherines death. Also wondered if Anne thought there had been a curse upon her to miscarry the day her nemesis died?
Without dissection and pathology of the mass itself on her heart, we will never know for sure. I think that if Henry could have, he would have. Just my gut feeling.
I have always wondered how much easier Catherine and Mary's lives would have been if she had agreed to the annulment. Mary could still have been declared legitimate as Eleanor of Aquitaine's daughters with Louis VIi were when their marriage was annulled. I respect her pride and religious beliefs but what a price she paid, and her daughter too.
I have to commend you for saying that Henry cut off relations with the Roman based Catholic Church. People forget that Henry considered himself Catholic till the day he died. And that he considered the religion of England was Catholic but under an English ruler rather than the Pope. But I like how you phrased it because that is what he did. He broke from Rome rule, not from the Catholic faith.
Loved this video...⚘ Gave me the shivers though with what is going on today! Certainly hope the future historians are not trying to solve a myserious but similiar 'story'..! Catherine, cancer & a maybe mistress !
Do you think Catherine was murdered and if so, by whom? Let me know in the comments below and remember to check out my Patreon at www.patreon.com/historycalling and my Amazon storefront at www.amazon.com/shop/historycalling
Well, while I don’t think she was m*rdered, I can see why people would think so, given the black heart and the ever present rumours.
I don't think she was murdered. Sounds like cancer to me that killed her.
Don’t think
she was “murdered” but certainly think King Henry had limited resources to ensure that her health would be neglected leading to an early death.
Metastasis from malignant melanoma can riddle the heart's 3 layers causing "charcoal heart". Generally, normal hearts weigh approximately 283.5 gms, but hearts with metastasis from malignant melanoma can weight up to approximately 2450 gms. Malignant melanoma is skin cancer and can be found anywhere on the body (on the scalp, arm pits, etc) and it only takes one.
No
As a Spaniard myself, I am proud of Queen Catalina. I can't imagine her suffering, after being a faithful wife for so many years and even having led the troops and won battles for her husband...
You shouldn't be proud she lied through her teeth about not consummating the marriage with Arthur because she was desperate to be queen and she ruined her daughter's life.
I honor her for fighting for her daughter's inheritance at such a cost to herself!
She ruined her chances for her daughter to marry young and have children by antagonising Henry who had every reason to divorce her, she lied to him about sleeping with his brother. She lied to the country as well, keeping everyone waiting to see if she was pregnant. She must have hoped she was, but when she found out she wasn't lied as she was desperate to marry the king.@@tammypike6177
@@jackdoe4632 There is contemporary evidence that she was being truthful: her duena, Elvira Manuel, wrote to Isabel letting her know about Catherine's condition and that she was still a virgin. Elvira would have known the consequences of playing false with royalty. It would have been very, very stupid of her to lie to Isabel.
She was Catherine's servant, she would have obeyed whatever Catherine told her to do.@@melenatorr
Regarding her possible cancer diagnosis, I must first state that I have not reviewed the data pertinent to Catherine's death nor have I seen the heart in its postmortem state (duh). I rarely engage in speculation but with a period of 450 years to confound any accuracy, the following is based on 21st century medical practice through a very blurry lens. Secondary melanoma can manifest in bizarre ways but the historical descriptions wander into the fantastical. After 55 years in medical practice I have never seen a case remotely like that which is described nor do I think poison is likely. After her marriage falling apart and being treated like dirt, separation from her faith and her daughter and called a heretic, anyone would develop stress related illness. "Dropsy" as far as I know, is a medieval word for dependent edema, very frequently attributed to cardiomyopathy of an enormous array of types. My guess, and that is all it could ever be as I stated due to that very blurry and vast time lapsed lens, is that Queen Catherine died of cancer of some type that created some kind of heart failure. That's about as clear as any sane medical practitioner could be expected to state. MD PhD FACS
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, which I found very interesting to read and I'm sure others will too. I wish I'd had your brain to pick (which sounds rather gross when I phrase it like that, but you know what I mean) as I was writing up the script so that I could have included your theory.
I agree. I am a retired DMD, and researched my thesis in Tudor Medicine, at university. I have a fascination for forensics.
@@historyloveriii2949 Your thoughts are so helpful. Thank you!
Since Mary died of cancer, I believe uterine or ovarian, cancer does seem to be a valid choice.
Very solid point.@@ronicrotty5542
If Henry wanted Catherine poisoned, he would have done it quietly, instead of breaking with the Catholic church and causing all this trouble.
Yes, there is certainly an argument that if he wanted her dead, it wasn't necessary to wait this long.
@@HistoryCallingAgree completely with this. He believed as did all monarchs of his time that he ruled by Gods right. His decisions and thoughts were unquestionable. He didn’t kill her in my 21st century opinion.
Very good point.
@@HistoryCallingThing is had he acted sooner...that's if Catherine was poisoned, wouldn't that have put Henry in a very dangerous position with Spain as her most devout followers were waiting for an assination attempt of some kind, especially after all the threats for not signing the oath had failed.
Its a tough one for sure.
Got to admire Catherine's courage. One very brave lady.
Please forgive typos, was my 3rd attempt at commenting, the ads kept kicking in...only just occurred to me to pause the clip😂
I think if he wanted to poison her he would have done it earlier and faster. Her death would by murder or anything looking like it would ruined his credibility in Europe as kather was related to half the ruler not withstanding charles the holy Roman empireror
The fact that Mary I also died of cancer makes one think the cancer was hereditary.
Mary didn't die of cancer. There's no proof of cancer. She died during an influenza pandemic. She had two phantom pregnancies before that. She reported abdominal pain. But there is no definite cause and most historians agree it was the flu.
It's certainly possible. It may have been indirectly so. If a person has a close relative (parent, sibling, child) with cancer their own risk for cancer (any kind) is somewhat higher than average.
Poor Katherine died of a terrible broken heart. Used, abused, betrayed and separated from her beloved daughter. Her poor heart gave out from sheer sadness and grief. “Natural “ causes.
Anne Boylen must have felt an icy stab in her heart that day. She was a highly intelligent woman, socially astute and knew Henry better than almost everyone else. Her ONLY salvation was a healthy, male baby. She knew it. She also knew there were young, fertile women waiting ( literally, ladies in waiting) in the wings to take her place. She must have had a few sleepless nights after Katherine’s death.
It may apocryphal but Anne was quoted as saying “I am her death and she is mine.”
Did Queen Camilla feel a stab through her heart when Princess Diana died? Think she was worried about her position?
@@NessaBear90 Probably not because she doesn't have pressure to have a male heir
Camilla was not queen when Diana died.
@@judycater2832
Wow….What a statement?!
I'm a nurse who worked on a cardiac floor. A black or dark mass on the heart sounds like it could be cancer. I fail to see how her entire heart could be black inside & out & still function enough to keep her alive. I don't think the heart would turn completely black overnight. Just my thoughts. I'm not a doctor and could be out in left field.
I'm a retired nurse and cardiology wasn't my field but I tend to agree with you
Perhaps they got the colour slightly wrong. They do seem to have been doing this by candlelight in the depths of winter.
I am a retired cardiac nurse and I agree with you. It was probably cancer not poison. Thanks 😊
retired Oncology Rn here.. have seen a dx of sarcoma of the heart EXACTLY once.
i could have been!
Maybe the heart was purple due to hypoxia (the way lips turn blue/purple from it) and the bad lighting from candles. Just a thought from a retired ICU/Trauma RN
I’ve never thought that Catherine was murdered, poor lady. Cancer does seem to be likely, exacerbated greatly by the stress she was under. Not that Henry might not have been tempted, but the consequences could have been grave, politically, and he well knew it. As you said, Catherine being a Spanish princess, and Charles’ niece would have been problematic for Henry, had she been actually murdered. Thank you for the video! Well done, as always!
Thanks Terri. Yes, I don't think it would have been worth the risk for Henry to kill her and if he did want to do it, there was no need to wait that long.
Catherine was not Charles' niece. He was her nephew.
@@AnastaciaInCleveland Oops! Lol! You are correct! I got the relationship mixed up!
Her heart was broken. She couldn’t even see her daughter. In his own way, Henry murdered her. He broke her heart and spirit, then disease could easily set in. If she hadn’t been a royal Spanish Princess, Henry and Cromwell would have figured out a way to have her head off.
You don't die from a broken heart. If that were true people would drop dead when relationships end or family or friends pass away. Sorry. 😢
@@NessaBear90I think it was a turn of phrase. A bad state of mind and sadness usually weakens one physically. If she was already ill, it’s entirely possible that her misery exacerbated said illness.
@@NessaBear90you absolutely can. Broken heart syndrome is the name. Effectively you have a heart attack shortly after your loved one dies. It happened to my grandfather.
@@katfoster845I’m so sorry for your granddad.🙏🏾🕊
I’ve always thought based on historical records that it was some form of cancer. But goodness knows Anne’s alleged comments, especially in relation to Bishop Fisher, did *not* help her case.
Yes, the cancer theory is discussed in the video (and to be honest I think it's the most likely explanation too), but I agree that Anne's comments and treatment of Mary and Catherine didn't make her (Anne) look innocent.
Catherine of Aragon is my favorite of Henry VIII’s queens. I don’t believe she was murdered by him or Anne. I believe it was cancer.
Thank you for posting such amazing content!
Officially it was cancer.
She was the only REAL Queen, and the only true wife of henry 8. He did not deserve such a good wife.
I think part of the reason Henry hesitated so little with killing his second wife, is that he remembered how much of a mess it was when he didn't have the courage to kill his first.
At the point when Catherine died, she was already out of the way
Yes, I agree that had Catherine gone quietly Henry might have been prepared to see if Anne would do the same, but I'm sure he knew that if he let her, Anne would have fought just as hard (though she would never have had the support of a powerful foreign family of course, so I don't think she would have been as strong an opponent as Catherine).
I also think it was because he had such a long history with Catherine. She knew him when sort of thing. Unlike Anne who he could just say, “Next”, I think Henry had an innate respect for Catherine that he couldn’t quite shake.
Yes, she was one of the last people in his life who still remembered his parents for instance. They had a long history as you say.
@@HistoryCalling Catherine didn't just have the support of 'a powerful foreign family' but also the love and loyalty of the English subjects who she had been very charitable towards for decades( having never forgotten when she living hand-to-mouth during her widowhood after Arthur's death while her father King Ferdinand V of Aragon and father-in-law Henry VII were haggling over whether to pay out/return her dowry). Despite Anne having been born an English subject, they never really liked her and resented her for Catherine's displacement. IOW, Henry had nearly as hard a time forcing them to grudgingly accept Anne as the new queen consort as he had in establishing the new Church of England. For all his bluster and threats, Henry wouldn't have wanted to risk open rebellion from them had he attempted to have Catherine railroaded much less executed (whereas, nearly everyone thought that the proud Anne was getting her comeuppance).It's interesting that some eighty years after Catherine's displacement and Anne's elevation, Shakespeare STILL made Catherine a sympathetic character in his play since all those decades later, Catherine's memory was held in high esteem (of course since Henry and Anne were the parents of the recently deceased adored Elizabeth I, Shakespeare took great pains to keep both of them sympathetic and shifted the WHOLE blame to Cardinal Wolsey). It also needs to be said that one reason that there would be widespread initial support for Mary I against Lady Jane Grey was due to her mother's memory (though Mary wasn't able to coast on those fumes for long).
@@HistoryCallingPersonally I think that if he had gotten away with hiding the murder of Catherine with poison he would absolutely have done the same to Anne instead of the public farce of execution.
I think he genuinely fooled himself into believing all his actions were justified. He was the chosen scion of God in England…if god wasn’t giving him an heir it must be because God disapproved of the woman.
People now make the mistake of viewing his actions and justification as being ludicrous and no one could believe them…but in that era with a bunch of yes men around and a heavy dose of narcissism you absolutely could.
Such a sad story. They started out as kindred spirits, and loved each other for many years before it all began to go awry. I feel pretty sure Catherine died from natural causes. Average life expectancy wasn't really very long at the time, medical care was often worse than the disease, and Catherine had spent years under terrific stress, which could have lowered her resistance to whatever did strike her. I don't know how comfortable her quarters were, how healthy her diet and lifestyle were, or how much care and attention her attendants were able to obtain for her when she began to fail. To say nothing of religious practices of the time, involving fasting and all kinds of self denial! All in all, Henry was probably indirectly, rather than directly responsible for her passing. Thanks for another great episode, HC!
Yes, I agree completely with what you're saying. Her living conditions (for a Queen/Princess) weren't great. Henry wasn't putting her up in the best, most comfortable houses. She was known to do things like fast, which would damage her health and you're spot on that 'doctors' were often more likely to do more harm than good.
Self denial and fasting are healthful practices. If you doubt that, look at the current state of human health worldwide in spite of the miracle of modern medicine.
@@Mrs.TJTaylorwhen done correctly they can be healthy practices, when followed incorrectly they can be disastrous
@@kymrawlins8099 In this day and age self indulgence and lack of discipline are a more common and more deadly.
@@Mrs.TJTaylorOh I agree with you. Once again, lack of knowledge and understanding can be disastrous, self denial can also be dangerous either way.
Thinking about it though, hasn't Greed always outweighed Need? Not in everyone's case but it seems Greed is everywhere
Queen Katherine is my absolute favourite Tudor Queen, but I don't think Henry murdered her. However, I will say that the cruel treatment and stress that he put her through in the final years of her life didn't do her health any favours either.
I wonder if she was drinking from lead lined cups. There may be a correlation between lead poison and heart failure
Ah, interesting idea. Surely that would have affected her household too though and people more generally?
@@HistoryCallingNot necessarily if her immune system was weakened due to poor food, stress, etc.
I honestly don't think poisoning someone was Henry's style, it really doesn't fit with what we know of him. And I don't think Anne was ultimately capable of murder, even if she wasn't too upset about Katherine's death. Natural causes seems the most likely explanation, whether it was cancer or some other illness. Though Katherine's utter misery over Henry abandoning her and her unhealthy living conditions probably hastened her death.
I agree. He preferred public executions. After all he opted to tell the world that Anne Boleyn had cheated on him (even though it wasn't true), rather than quietly killing her and claiming it was natural causes.
Yeah because if he quietly killed his wives then he'd be obligated to treat them with the honors their position came with or continue dealing with them when he considered the problem gone
@@agatha6999It also would have gotten suspicious quickly if the King's wives kept suddenly dying from anything other then childbirth complications. It was hard enough to try and find Henry wife number 4 from the pool of European nobles. Imagine if he'd been seriously suspected of murdering not one, but two, wives! No one would have been willing to marry off their daughters to him.
He basically ended up in that situation after the debacle with Anne of Cleve anyway.
I’m so glad you went back to the Tudors even if just for one video. Your historically correct videos have inspired me to see the British Isles. I’ll be there for 14 days this year.
Have fun! But don’t expect to see everything you might want to see.
Oh not just for one video. There's plenty more to come. I just need little breaks from them every so often :-) Have a lovely time on your visit too :-)
Edith hope you have a lovely holiday .
I always thought there could have been some type of ovarian cancer potentially for her due to her multiple pregnancies and stillbirths etc. The black mass sounds absolutely like it was cancer of the heart; but I would imagine the deep stress and pain she was experiencing made the process so much worse. It does make me wonder how long the cancer was working on her, if she had been sick for years! Poor Catherine. Rest in peace ❤ xx
Yes, I'm sure the stresses of her life didn't make her situation any easier.
Fact: Queen Catherine lived to age 50, making her the longest-lived of all of Henry's wives.
Cleves and Parr were so damned unlucky in that regard.
eh, Anne of Cleves lived till 41 or smth- not great, but could be worse
I cannot imagine Henry and Anne celebrating or rejoicing in Catherine`s death if they had actively taken part in poisoning her. Surely there would have been some somber and pompous services and a funeral with every inch of black silk to be found in the whole kingdom.
There was indeed a big funeral (though Henry and Anne weren't there). See my video on it for more details.
A few historians have mentioned how after hearing the news both Catherine and Henry wore yellow, indicating that they didn't as Catherine had been a thorn in their side. I can't see them openly celebrating though either way as to me they would be saying 'Hooray we've finally got rid of her'. I don't think they would have risked that publicly, despite what they really felt at the time, it would gave made them look guilty.
I admit I have little good to say about Henry but I doubt he poisoned Catherine. He was so ruthless in many ways it amazes me he just didn't produce many illegitimate children and recognize one. ( I think there were a few supporters of Richmond) I know Henry had the power to recognize an heir before he died but he never used it.
The wonderful irony is he had the steadfast Elizabeth under his nose all those years and didn't have a clue that she would become the leader he never was.
I know. I like to think he's very red faced somewhere about how fantastic his 'worthless' little second daughter turned out to be and about the fact that he's primarily famous today because of the women in his life.
Elizabeth definitely proved that women wasn't the weaker sex that's for sure.
That a woman could be just as strong intelligent and fierce as any man given half the chance.
To be honest I think I'd be more frightened standing I'm front of Elizabeth than Henry😂
@@kymrawlins8099I could not agree more with you, the greatest monarch and without any fear of contradiction the greatest queen England as had, and the last queen to have power absolute.
Thank you for another video!
I don't think she was murdered, in spite of her own comments, enough people hated Anne enough to twist Catherine's death to fit their own narrative
You're welcome and I would tend to agree. Bumping her off might have crossed a few people's minds, but I don't think they did it in the end.
Henry an Anne’s reaction to Katherine’s dress, down to the yellow clothing, is nothing short of despicable. Seriously disgusts me :(
Yes, some people claim that yellow was a sign of mourning in Spain, but I've never tracked down a reputable source for that. Anyways, when French royalty died I think the English still dressed in black and the colour of mourning in France is white.
@@HistoryCalling Yeah, I think the whole “yellow was a mourning colour in Spain” was just made up by Anne apologists. For all I could gather the colour of mourning in Spain was black, and sometimes white, though black was the norm.
Philip II of Spain famously wore black from a point on to signify his “mourning” for his losses (though I’m not sure he felt any, but pr yk)
@@HistoryCalling Agreed. All of my research lists black for mourning.
@@historyloveriii2949 Yellow in Spain until 1498; also Egypt and Burma.
@@perniciouspete4986 Interesting...I will give you 1498. I doubt it that Anne Boleyn knew about Egypt and Burma. 🙂
No, I have never thought Catherine was murdered. Also, for her time, she was very old. Not many lived as long as Eleanor of Aquitaine.
Yes, it was rare to get to be elderly, though if you didn't die as an infant and you survived childbirth, your chances of getting into your 50s and 60s were much better.
I don't know if you've heard of the book, Mortal Monarchs by Dr. Suzie Edge, but it's very good and talks about the monarchs and their causes of death from a medical standpoint. It's very interesting
Oh my word, I'm adding that to my Amazon wish list! Thank you :-)
Edit: I have now added it to my list!
@@HistoryCalling her books are amazing.
I admit, the one Alice above is talking about I treated myself for Christmas a signed copy😂
I always thought she died from injustice & a broken heart. Keeping his daughter from her mother was demonic. I hope Henry is roasting as we speak. He caused so much pain & division just because he couldn’t keep it in his pants & had no respect for his own family. There are so many people still suffering due to the actions of men like that, especially due to Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Henry VIII, Martin Luther, etc
I'm baffled that Henry seemed to have thought Catherine's death would just magically fix his relationship with the Emperor. Even if there was no suspicion at all about whether or not he poisoned her, there's no way he thought the guy would just forget how poorly his aunt was treated because she was dead... maybe there's a cultural element to this I'm missing? It just seems like such a stupid thing to assume!
He was the insane one. He was better off with Catherine alive.
Thank you for your informative content. In brief, no I do not think that Catherine was poisoned or killed by the orders of Henry VIII. The main reason of my belief is that she was in a 'safe house' well out of his way, not at court, and he was occupied with his 'great love' Anne Boleyn. I would assume that Henry VIII knew that if Catherine's death was suspicious he would be held accountable by the Spanish and indeed Catholics in England and he would not want that suspicion to fall on his shoulders. I believe that she probably died of some form of heart cancer or disease.
You're welcome. Yes, I suspect cancer too. That black mass on the heart seems to imply that more than anything else and like you, I don't think Henry wanted to annoy the Spanish quite that much.
Cancer does make the area(s) its in, black. It also has a terrible smell. I think you are right. And the mass on her heart does make sense with cancer. Just as HC pointed out. Thank you for your comment. 😊
History calling if you ever make a video on Hollywood vs History on Anastasia Romanov you should use both 20th century fox films the Anastasia 1997 musical and Anastasia 1956 version staring Ingrid Bergman as Anastasia. Then you could say which one is the most accurate out of the two films and comparing them two. A bit like your Anne Boleyn Hollywood vs history video by the way great video I enjoyed this one
I have considered something on Anastasia actually, or rather the woman who pretended to be her in later decades, but I think that's who those movies are about.
This would be a great video to do
What, no mention of that great (and obviously historically accurate) animated classic where the real Anastasia rediscovers her true identity with the help of her her long-dead family, now reincarnated as musical instruments? What a shocking oversight! 😊
But, didn’t they find Anastasia’s bones a few years ago, putting to rest the myth that she somehow got away?
Wait, is the animated one not the 1997 one (if you can't tell already, I've actually never seen either of them).
I thought it was very common to attribute unexpected deaths at this time of famous persons to poison. Mainly because medicine was a mystery in itself. I don’t think even Henry would cause the direct death of a foreign princess either. The political ramifications of that would be too much even for him. For Katherine’s part, I prefer to think she died of a broken heart in a very real way as I truly believe she loved Henry even after he betrayed her. Such a sad end for a noble lady.
Yes, I think there were rumblings of poison in a number of cases where a natural death was convenient for a famous person's enemies. I can't see Henry killing her like this either though.
There's a bit in Michael Hirst The Tudors that I do think is true where the King says..
Catherine could raise an army just as powerful as any of her mothers.
Henry ( the real one not a TV drama) would have known that Catherine was incredibly strong
I just love learning about the wives of Henry the viii
Me too. Hope you enjoy this one :-)
I have always admired Queen Catherine of Aragon. (In fact, one year I dressed up in a green velvet costume with fur for a Halloween party -- my husband dressed as Henry, and we got an award.) Because she was my favorite, I have read books, articles, watched videos, and movies. I definitely think she was poisoned, the cancer notwithstanding. It could have been something as simple as an overdose of laudanum. Or it could have been done deliberately by her erstwhile husband. Let us not forget that this poison was supposed to be untraceable. That being the case, an autopsy would not have revealed it.
I've always thought that Anne's miscarriage was probably a result of poison. She miscarried after being seen to wear yellow at the news of Catherine's death. I could see Catherine's supporters angry and retaliating.
I think Catherine just died. With her having been in poor health already, and with the stress she was going through, it's no surprise that she died. Many people right before their death will have a rally, seem to be improving.
Yes, I completely agree and she'd been in poor health for a long time.
I am of the same opinion. The cause of death could’ve easily been either a myocardial infarction or Takatsubo’s cardiomyopathy
hello hc!! i’ve never believed the poison theory but wow this is quite compelling! wouldn’t be hard to believe that back then many people probably thought this had happened.
Another very nice, well-researched video. Love your Tudor content.
Thank you very much :-)
Well said, cogent, and convincing. Thanks.
Whether he orders her death or not, he is still root cause o her grief tt leads to her untimely demise!
Henry, the Heartless King!! 🙄
It's possible, but she and her daughter were very close and Anne was on thin ice after losing here little boy at birth.
Shakespeare's play about Katharine has one of the most beautiful speeches based on truth.....people felt terrible for Katharine, unless they were bankers and ilk. The play is very hard to find, because the Henry side won.
what’s the speech like?
@@lfgifu296It is in Shakespeare’s, Henry VIII, Act 2, Scene 4. Look at the Folger Shakespeare Library to read it.
Your videos are an educational and welcome distraction from current events. Thank you for them!
Thank you for the excellent information. You are a wonderful fountain of knowledge.
You're very welcome :-)
Thank you for this video HC! I’ve been in the medical field most of my adult life and have been present at several autopsies. I cannot imagine what an “autopsy” like Katherine’s would have been. From today back over 450 years it would have been rudimentary at best. I believe they were “looking” for poisoning and a diseased and black colored heart would answer that request. So many good comments. You make all of us think outside the box with facts. Hope you have a great week and I LOVE your move to Monday!
Thanks Amy. :-) Yes, even without any medical background myself I can't imagine an autopsy by candlelight by people with a relatively rudimentary understanding of anatomy and illness is ideal.
Thank you for this HC 🖤 💛
You're welcome :-)
God bless Queen Catherine. ❤
If Henry had wanted to poison Catherine, he would not have sent her away, but kept her close, perhaps welcomed back to court as Dowager Queen or some such in order to allay any suspicions. He was angry with her stubbornness, but what is that when compared with his ultimate goal? He could have shown the utmost concern for his poor, delusional former consort, that by the grace of God was discovered to be nothing of the sort. He could have played it, and convinced everyone that although he now knew she had never been his true wife, he was still very fond of and concerned for her. And therefore, sent her the very best physicians and food and caregivers. And then bang, just like that, a stroke out of the blue! She's gone! Autopsy?? What? Desecrate the body of her former highness? Of course her death was innocent! Who would benefit from it? She no longer held power. ETC. Just saying. Fascinating video, and topic.
Thanks Mary-Lou (sorry, I'm not sure if there should be a hyphen or not). Yes, I agree if Henry wanted to kill her, there were many other ways to go about it and it could have been done much sooner.
Thank you for your video
And thank you for watching! :-)
It’s nice to see you went back to your roots. I love your deep dive on Tudor and late medieval period. Would you consider doing episodes on the York girls? The daughters of Richard duke of York and Edward IV. It will be interesting to hear and learn about the life of the more obscure members of the family. There probably isn’t that much information on the records but it will be a treat to hear your take one it. And I know it will be as interesting and educational as ever.
I am not an expert on this, but I believe that in this period neither operations nor autopsies were carried out by medical doctors. Such tasks belonged to the barber-surgeons. Thanks for another great video.
Certainly they weren't carried out by anyone we'd recognise as a doctor today. Honestly, early modern medicine was more likely to kill you than save you in my opinion. Just look at poor Caroline of Ansbach :-(
And how many people were “bled” to death?!
@@HistoryCallingUnless it was John Bradmore hehe
Yea, she died, several months later he married Jane and had a son a year later. He didn’t have the excuse of the churches ban from marrying your sister in law, whether or not consumption had occurred ( yes, the pope made an exception for Henry, who was at that point convinced that this sin was the cause of Gods wrath in not permitting him to have a son, which was solidified in his mind when he had a son with Jane. People forget that Henry had been studying as a Jesuit and was convinced that the church and the pope were corrupt.
What crap. There were no Jesuits while Henry was alive and the old testament is divided as to whether marriage of one's Brothers widow is allowed, there are eben passages making it mandatory in cases the brother died without a son.
Jane? Jane Seymour was wife 3 after Anne Boleyn...
I think it's definitely possible, but I don't think it's likely. Love the video! I miss attending lectures and watching your videos feels like I'm back in school! I love how much you research these topics!
Thanks Sarah. I'm definitely taking the 'you make me feel like I'm back in school' comment as a compliment :-)
I always love how Henry quoted the passage in the Bible saying not to marry your brother's wife. Totally disregarding another passage in the Bible that says if your brother dies without children you should marry his wife so that the brother's name would continue. That's practically an order for Henry to marry Catherine.
that’s Henry😍 an idiotic hypocrite
Hello HC. I was having this conversation with this guy; he called king George iii A idiot for not marry any of daughters off when they were young.
Yeah, he really was. Made their lives a misery and one of them ended up an unwed mother.
why?
@@glen7318 Well George III and his wife were overprotective of his daughters to the point that despite having so many children, they barely had any grandchildren which could've caused less stress with the dynasty and given them alliances
I don't think it was murder. I think it was a mix of malnutrition, stress, and a undiagnosed/ untreated illness. I agree that if anne had a part in it, henry would have used that against her later and I don't think she hated her as much as we people think she did. Henry was the type to have someone else do it and in a way that would make him look good.
She was a faithful and virtuous woman, a noble woman. A good wife, good mother, and a good Queen. Unfortunately for her, she married a monster with no morals.
I think she married a good man, who unfortunately had a severe brain injury that changed his whole personality. Then he wasn’t so good
@@tiggerpup_nz From what i have read, i think you may be right. And almost everyone agrees that Henry 8 was good at the beginning.
thank you for posting this! after recently finding out through ancestry dna that henry, catherine and mary are my ancestors, i've been gobbling up anything i can to learn more about my family across the pond
Hi history calling from previous topic about Anastasia yes both 20th century fox films the musical Anastasia film 1997 and The 1956 Anastasia film staring Ingrid Bergman both have references or have followed the same story line as Anna Andersen so yep it can be a Hollywood vs History video I think it would get a lot of views. If you haven’t seen them or only seen one of them I just don’t want to spoil what happens in both of these movies both the 1997 Anastasia film and 1956 Anastasia both are very good you will love them both I think. Also the comment earlier has got 5 likes already so the video could be very popular and gain a lot of views
I know it sounds weird to feel this definite about a historical point without concrete evidence, but one thing I'm convinced of is that Catherine never slept with Arthur. Even if she an interest to lie, I believe in her piety and honesty 100%.
I think the evidence about Anne plotting to kill her is dubious, and sadly for Anne, as you point out, when Catherine died it actually made his marriage with Jane Seymour much easier and there was no question of his issue's legitimacy.
I'm just finishing up reading the Wolf Hall trilogy, and it's interesting to see the contrast between Cromwell in the book and the real Cromwell. I know you probably have several million suggestions for future videos, but I would love to see one exclusively focused on Cromwell or one contrasting the real Cromwell versus his portrayals on film.
I just can't ever decide about her and Arthur. On the one hand it seems so unlikely that they never went at it (so to speak). On the other, I do generally trust her to have been a very pious and honest person, BUT she was known to lie on occasion (such as when she lied to her father about her first miscarriage back in 1510) and she did have her position and that of her daughter to protect in the annulment proceedings, so I really just don't know.
@@HistoryCalling Arthur was so young-perhaps he wasn’t capable of doing or didn’t want to do the deed! I agree, it does seem odd…but I can’t imagine, from everything else we know about her, her swearing yet lying about a fact that came to define her whole life so completely.
Great video!
Thank you :-)
Brillant video as always. I personally never bought that she was murdered but rather her body gave out. Stress no doubt didn't help anything underlying. I've been through a lot of trauma and I have a plethora of chronic illnesses and when my last partner-a prime narcisscist much like Henry; left me - my illnesses were much worse. Besides the stress of what she'd recently endured she'd suffered so many miscarrages and still births which is bound to have an effect. I'm no medic but it's just my penny of thoughts! Also I could be wrong and don't recall the source but I had heard Henry did weep in private for Catherine xx
Poor thing she suffered ....great video @historycalling
Interesting video. You always uncover little known tidbits that fascinate, HC. Hope you had a lovely Easter, if you celebrate.❤️✌️
Thank you very much and yes I do celebrate it and did have a good one, involving far too much chocolate. :-)
@@HistoryCalling Can there be too much chocolate? 😉
What always struck me about her long ordeal, besides the decades of degradation and abuse by her husband, was that she lived through so many miscarriages. She was isolated and constantly spied on and oppressed by deadly enemies. She held her head high and was thoroughly a queen throughout it all. Amazing woman. As she stood tall, Henry’s true character was revealed for all time.
If not for her powerful connections, she would have been killed years earlier when she became an inconvenience to her monstrous husband. I think it likely she was not directly murdered by poison, but her terrible treatment over decades probably shortened her life.
Very interesting video ❤ 🤔
Thank you so much :-)
The Buttler did it.
I can listen to these videos all night long. And I do! Learning and such a soothing voice. 💗
When I first learnt about Catherine I read her surname as ‘A Dragon’ and now 32 years later I still see it every single time and it makes me laugh
Thank You🌹
Also while certainly there were poisonings in medieval England, both Nobel and Commoner… it would be more plausible at this time if it were the French Court we were speaking of, those palaces were nearly packed with poison and… poisoners. Great episode !!! Love a story with an unsolvable mystery. Five stars🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟
I'm with David Starkey (22:07) and his second point: stress. It can only be a guess, and only as a contributing factor, but imagine what her life was like with all that going on around her. Beyond the conflict itself and all she had lost, the separation from her daughter, the isolation she must have felt- everyone around her either longed for her death (and speculated openly about it) or wanted her to live as a weapon of spite.
Yes, the poor woman really had a miserable life much of the time, never more so than in her final 6 years or so. That certainly could have exacerbated her increasingly poor health.
@surferjoe1 They say stress can cause many physical issues now so it must have done back then as well. I can't see how it couldn't have played apart. The separation for Catherine and Mary was cruel, Catherine must have been heartbroken being denied access to her daughter
I think your logic is sound with the sarcoma. She most likely would of had edema in that case. Does the report mention swelling of the ankles or lower limbs? Good job. Love the illustration. I saw that one in the Rjiks museum when I stayed across the street from it for a month. Recognized it but don't remember the particulars. Thanks for all you do 🎉
No, I don't think Catherine was murdered. Cancer perhaps, brought on additionally possibly by the stress she had undergone. Had she been murdered, I'm sure Henry would have quite faced real and dangerous repercussions from Catherine's relatives. Thank you for another thoroughly entertaining and thought-provoking video. Regards from Sydney 🌞
Thanks Axel. Yes, I wouldn't have wanted to tick Spain off like that all to kill a woman who was largely out of the way anyway by that stage.
By the way, poison doesn't form tumors as far as I know!
Same here.
Thank you.
You're welcome :-)
Hello, History Calling 🌷
It seems to me that it would be very unlikely that Anne Boleyn attempted to poison Queen Catherine. It would have been impossible for her to murder Catherine herself; she could hardly show up at Kimbolton in person. And if she paid or suborned someone else to kill Catherine, the potential for exposure was terrific. At best, she would have put herself in that person's power, and at worst that person might be caught and reveal her part in it.
Anne was an intelligent woman. Even if she didn't understand (unlikely) that Catherine alive was her best security against Henry getting rid of her as well, she would hardly have put herself in another person's power by hiring an assassin.
HI HC. Will be watching later but thanks in advance for waht I'm sure is going to intersting and informative yet again. Was reading something about this recently. One name keeps cropping up - Gregory di Casale. Saying no more 😉
Thanks Chris. Hope you enjoy the deep dive into Catherine's final weeks/months later :-)
@@HistoryCalling Apologies for typos. In a bit of a rush .... Tempus Fugit & all that.
Not at all. I make typos all the time :-)
what are the possible reasons for gregory di casale to receive 8 gold coins? can we ever know that story? maybe henry was already being treated for syphilis? he was known to take potions.
the ov ca connection to a heart ca is for me, valid. did female inbred dna affect more family than catherine and mary, who both presented with female ca symptoms? birthing trouble in the family is historic- henry's mother , daughter of edward IV, died from a late pregnancy, after many borths; and his grandmother also was affected by having a number of pregnancies,-didn't jacquetta die from heart disease brought on by being pregnant for so many years? fascinating family. jacquetta is a fav.
I don't think there was any need to murder her as Henry had already gotten her out of the way for Anne. Even following their divorce, she lived well and for the remainder of her life. If anyone wanted to poisen her, wouldn't they have done it while she was still legally married to Henry? I believe she died of cancer, as her autopsy revealed a black growth on her hearth, which was also black. I don't think there was a great understanding of cancer during those times.
Henry clearly wanted to get rid of her, but not in that way. If he did, he would have had it done before he got together with Anne. Great video! It really got me thinking...
Yes, I agree. Henry could have killed her a lot earlier and the mass on her heart sounds a lot like cancer. Glad you found it interesting :-)
She was murdered, His maltreatment of her; withholding her daughter, withholding proper food and clothing. Denying proper medical treatment, Subjecting her to solitary confinement in cold castles without warmth or proper fuel , all contributed to her death and it was by his hand and approval.
Thank you
Henry broke her heart & reduced her to a peasant slowly he took more & more comfort from her & reduced her penniless.
Hmm, well, she was poor by the standards of a Queen, definitely, but I think an actual peasant would have called her an incredibly rich lady.
Henry did not reduce her to a peasant. She was granted the title of Dowager Princess of Wales and was even granted lands commensurate to her position. Henry and Cromwell were at pains to prove to Charles that Catherine and Mary weren't being mistreated. There's a great online resource about Mary and Elizabeth's pre-ascension households, which goes into detail about land grants at the time.
I have always loved Queen Catalina, Anglicized to Catherine Of Aragon. Her demure portrait is delightful.
Thanks!
THANK YOU SO MUCH WENDY FOR YOUR CONTINUING GENEROSITY. I'm glad you enjoyed the video :-)
Whoa. New fear unlocked: heart cancer. I didn't even know you could get that. Poor lady. I'd always thought it was some sort of abdominal cancer, like her stomach.
I had an uncle that wrote to his mother while he was in the army that he had cancer of the heart. Of course he was just lying because that’s what he does. He is, of course, despicable.
Sadly I think that evil disease can get you anywhere :-(
You can get cancer pretty much anywhere. But cancer also spreads like wicked weeds, so it may not have started in the heart.
Thanks
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE VERY GENEROUS DONATION GILL. I'm glad you liked the video.
@@HistoryCalling I did promise that if I had a few extra £ in my weekly budget, I'd donate. You're very welcome and , yes, I love tour content. You don't state everything as fact and explain how you came by your information.
It's very much appreciated and I'm glad you appreciate my methodology as well, as not everyone does (particularly if I'm saying something they don't want to be true).
Much love from New Orleans ♥️⚜️♥️⚜️♥️⚜️♥️
Thanks Lisa and right back at ya :-)
Henry was responsible for her death via the stress and poverty he caused her, but he was not stupid enough to assassinate her
If Henry was willing to k I’ll l Catherine I would think he would’ve done it much sooner. By the time Catherine died he’d already married Anne. What would’ve been the point? The time to have killed her was much earlier when he was still trying to marry Anne. Not nearly ten years later when he was, at least by some accounts, already tiring of Anne.
I don’t believe he killed Catherine. Though certainly stress and trauma can manifest in all types of illnesses. Being separated from her child with that child’s future at the whim of a cruel tyrant would be enough to make anyone sick onto death.
Yes, I agree. He could have bumped her off c. 1530 and saved himself a lot of hassle.
It just doesn’t make sense to me that henry would go through with the break from Rome etc and THEN kill Catherine. If he was going to murder her, why not do it before and save himself the trouble?
I think he would have done it sooner if that was the case xxx
I think so too. When he wanted rid of Anne she was dead about 2 weeks later.
I would have thought that if she was going to be murdered then ut would have happened earlier rather than later. By the time she died, she had ceased to be the thorn in Henry's side that she was in the beginning.
I hadn't heard before about the contemporary poison rumors before this video. Considering that the contemporary autopsy found an obviously cancerous heart, that convinces me.
Same here. I think her contemporary supporters were just grasping at straws in their grief. There really wasn't any convincing evidence of poison.
I also go with the diagnosis of Cancer (Uterine and Heart) for killing Queen Katherine, as Queen Mary also died of (Uterine) Cancer. There was always threats for ending Queen Katherine's marriage to Henry and also killing Mary so that there was always the chance for any of his male children could be put in place on the throne after King Henry died.
If Anne Boleyn was accused of being a witch amongst other things, I've often wondered why was there not a lot of suspicion of her involvement in Catherines death. Also wondered if Anne thought there had been a curse upon her to miscarry the day her nemesis died?
Without dissection and pathology of the mass itself on her heart, we will never know for sure. I think that if Henry could have, he would have. Just my gut feeling.
I have always wondered how much easier Catherine and Mary's lives would have been if she had agreed to the annulment. Mary could still have been declared legitimate as Eleanor of Aquitaine's daughters with Louis VIi were when their marriage was annulled. I respect her pride and religious beliefs but what a price she paid, and her daughter too.
Hello from Kansas 🇺🇲
I have to commend you for saying that Henry cut off relations with the Roman based Catholic Church. People forget that Henry considered himself Catholic till the day he died. And that he considered the religion of England was Catholic but under an English ruler rather than the Pope. But I like how you phrased it because that is what he did. He broke from Rome rule, not from the Catholic faith.
Loved this video...⚘
Gave me the shivers though with what is going on today!
Certainly hope the future historians are not trying
to solve a myserious but similiar 'story'..!
Catherine, cancer & a maybe mistress !
Poisoning wasn’t Henry’s style. The axe, definitely yes!
Yeah...I agree with you. Henry was all about collecting heads. He wouldn't bother poisoning anyone. He didn't have to.