Wow thanks for that I just got this stone, I brought 2 jaakapuko knives 110 and 140, they came with secondary bevel and I wanted a true skandi, I ground away on my shapton 320 and to my dismay there was a huge dish in the middle, after seeing your video I realise the stone was wrong and I was not using it correctly, putting lots of force on it, now I will not ruin the 120 thanks to your good knowledge here , shame some other so called experts failed to mention these facts
Very nice commentary. Probably more than anything I look forward to your videos on stones / sharpening / knife care. The stone commentary in particular is always much appreciated as you really put forth the qualifications missing from so many reviews of stones.
Ha, the amusing thing is that I feel my stone commentary is really rough because I am still working through how to describe them in a kind of quantitative manner. I think the scratch pattern comparisons I did recently by taking a knife up to polish and then making a few passes is interesting.
Cliff Stamp Well you hold yourself to a fairly high standard of precision...I'm mostly looking for practical application results, and those you're delivering in spades. The other thing you have to remember is what else is out there in comparison, at least at the standard knife forums. I don't watch much youtube videos outside of the people I follow, but it's hard to get commentary that actually focuses on results (which are also quantified in some manor...relative speed, relative sharpness attained, etc) and not personal preference.
C amber What I am trying to obtain is actually fairly simple - could someone who isn't mean read what I wrote and understand it. The problem is finding a way to measure something that isn't so abstract, it is easy to measure things but I want to be able to do it in a way anyone could easily, hence allow replication. It is coming together I think, as with anything, you learn by doing and feedback/interaction.
Cliff Stamp I figured that's what you were after, but don't underestimate the value of what you're currently doing just bc it's not yet at that level of replicatibility or measurability.
The shipping on these must have been significant! Its one of the main reasons why I shy away from buying stones that need to be shipped. I am lucky there are a few Asian markets in my area.
You just have to buy a ton of them, the shipping per stone then is small. Really it it only practical if you are a serious stone geek and buy a dozen of them or do some kind of group buy.
Idk why the shapton pro 120 has so many different info on internet. One says its aluminum oxide, or sic with magnesium bound. Sic with clay. Very facinating how people have different infos to spread around...
It will be nice to try out some european sharpening stones like Tyrolit or Dronco for an example if you can find them in North America with good prices...
Cliff Stamp Building upon that, do you have any experience with Norton waterstones. I remember a forum member (Mark maybe?) not having good things to say about it.
Bill22252 I have not used them extensively, I have flattened a few for friends. I think that was just a case of Norton trying to cash in on the waterstone phase that rolled through woodworking awhile ago and not really a case that they actually added anything to the selection.
This will be an interesting stone to work with. It will be used for removing damage so it won't get used often but when it does it will get a fair work out. It will be interesting to see how it compares to sandpaper on glass and the giant green brick (220 king) also very friable.
Cliff Stamp I should ave measured it when I thinned the bevel on that tang I would bet I was 1-2mm anyways. I will keep track as I use it. That may be a while I'm not working in my shop at all now, just on my house.
Cliff Stamp I should ave measured it when I thinned the bevel on that tang I would bet I was 1-2mm anyways. I will keep track as I use it. That may be a while I'm not working in my shop at all now, just on my house.
I have been using the Superstone 400 lately (I just pick them at random). I look forward to the Chosera as it is supposed to be an upgrade to the Superstone series.
The Sigma Power 120 has a strong reputation as a grinding stone, the dual water/oil is just interesting and the dual soft/hard stone as well. The others are just standards that I wanted to work with. The crazy King was just a gift as it could not be sold.
I worked with it a little, I have trouble at times tell which side is which. They are not different enough for me to really see them as having different roles.
Cliff, how do those Sigma power stones handle HSS and high carbide steels like 10V? I typically use diamond for those steels or for when I do any significant amount of material removal, but have been considering getting into other abrasives just to learn about them.
That is exactly what it is made to cut, the Sigma Power 120. It is very different than the Sigma Power Select series as it doesn't release abrasive initially and later does so only under really heavy pressure. Lots of more info on the forum.
Maybe I just have low patience for sharpening, but for all the variables to take into account I would much rather use diamonds. They stay flat and cut fast. That being said the uniformity of the edge finish is advantageous.
I have lot of diamond plates and they excel at finishing the apex to coarse and semi-fine finishes. However slid stones are very flexible in use, and waterstones can be manipulated to produce many finishes. But yeah, they are a lot more complex (and messy) to use.
Hello Cliff, very interesting video as always. I want youto take a look at something that I found really interesting. Im Russian, born there but lived in the US most of my life byt as someone who knows the language I find interesting channels at times. I came across this slovakian guy who does a lot of rope cutting tests(I know, rope doesn't tell all but the results he gets are unlike anything I have seen). He uses a tormek t7 to sharpen his knives buthe has a special wheel made out of rozsutec which is a slovakian stone around 6k to 8k. He has a chart which you can download on most of his videos and it lists all the knives he tried. The number one knife is an zdp 189 endura with OVER 9000 CUTS IN 20MM ROPE!!! It beat out m390, s125v, cpm rex 121 and other steels. Bythe gas a rockstead and it gave a vetter performance with another tyoe of sharpening than the endura(in the chart he lists the knife, steel, hrc if kniwn, bevel width, angle, amount of cuts per knife, estimated amount for a 10cm blade and ranks in percentage). The channel is pavol sandor. The guy looks likehe knows how to sharpen, he uses a microscope like you, tajes castings of the edge and shows width and angles and all his test zre recorded, sone are 2 hour plus videos, tge endura is close to 6 hoyrs and brojen up I to parts. Sorry fir the long message but I thought this is stuff that's at leadt worth taking a look at. Im trying to find me one of these stones now, so let me know what you think Cliff
Bruce, yeah. I think it will be very nice for Mark as well as he is a wood worker. For most people on traditional v-bevels I think it is likely to be too soft/friable.
Bruce, I have been working with a Naniwa Superstone 400 lately and I think that is something you would like. It cuts at a similar speed to the Bester 700 but leaves a much finer finish, is workable over a wider range of steels and has a very soft feeling like a natural stone. The only downside is that you have to spray it often. I have tried soaking it and that helps but even a 15 min soak doesn't fully resolve it as it is sealed on the bottom. I would be cautious of a longer soak as some of these stones can be fragile.
I will give it a try. I just sharpened the 69RC Maxemet and it was hard but not overly so. I saw your video and did not even try a water stone. I used first a coarse Norton and then a fine one. The coarse one is one that Wayne Goddard has made by Norton he does not like their regular one and I forget what it is made of but it is a different material. It cut the bevel with no problem but when I went to the 600 grit fine one it did not cut near as well and it took a while to finish the edge on it. I will soon have a video out on it.
***** They make an aluminum oxide one (India) and a silicon carbide one. With the Maxamet if you use a hard stone (no slurry) the edge is very likely to chip which will make getting it sharp very difficult and those chips will persist a long time even if you have a fine finish. I recommend to finish with a soft stone, the Naniwa Aotoshi is almost ideal as it is like a big muddy brick. However that is a very fine stone do you need something to cut the bevel first. The best way is to stop just before you hit the apex with the coarse stone, then apex on the Naniwa Superstone 400, do just a little work on the Aotoshi and then set the micro-bevel how you want. These are just examples of stones, there are lots similar. For example the King's are very soft/muddy as well and dirt cheap. If you have to sharpen them on a hard cutting stone then you can reduce the chipping by adding just a small amount lubricant, assuming you are not using oil. However you have to be careful because soaps can mangle some waterstones as it breaks down the bonds. Shapton warns severely about trying it with their Pro's.
Yes, however unless you are grinding a very high carbide blade (and/or very extreme contact areas), the low binding strength is going to cause too much grit wastage.
Cliff Stamp thanks for replying. I got the stone in about a week ago and love it. No carbide blades for me, only carbide I have is a pull through carbide cutter which I won’t be needing anymore thanks to this stone.
Thank you for undertaking this examination of Japanese waterstones. It should go a good way towards clearing up some of the weaboo myth and confusion that seems to surround these things.
There are a lot of nice japanese stones, but there are a lot of nice non-japanese stones as well. The katana-like myth around japanese culture is fairly interesting though, especially when you compare it to other cultures such as look at the German knives from Herder as an example of cutting ability refined to an extreme level.
Cliff Stamp I think it is kind of amusing that for all the popularity of Japanese stones in NA knife culture, traditional Japanese knives don't really attract all that much attention beyond kitchen knives.
Bill22252 There is significant ingress into wood working (the chisels are often popular), tactical is huge and even small-utility has its influence as well. The folders are really nice though, and there isn't much EDC and the wood working blades are rarely spoke of. It is curious as they all have similar features/behaviors. As with most things popularity can often come down to having (or lack of) various people to aggressively push them.
The Japanese influence on folders was pretty much pushed into the background in my mind. I'm not really sure how I forgot the role that Seki Japan's knife makers have played in making the clipit and tactical folder popular. But things like cladded steels (I'm not including ZT's composites) and the various grinds used on Japanese knives really haven't caught on in some cases, although the bushcrafters do seem to approve of japanese single bevel blades.
Bill22252 Yeah, a lot of it though is very integral. The Japanese style grinds for example do not work very well if the steel isn't cladded, just try grinding down those big / wide bevels on western style steels. The cladding can't work either if you don't use the knives like the Japanese do as they are extremely weak. Spyderco has tried it on a few folders with the SuperBlue and people get really shocked at how easy they bend.
The M5 is a much smaller stone, it is only 5 mm thick. They are meant more for hobby rather than professional work so don't have the full ability of the Pro line in terms of cutting ability / dish resistance. I have not used them, that is just how they are promoted. They are much lower in cost, but again are only 5 mm thick. But most people would never wear out a 2 cm thick stone anyway.
do the hr and hc differ in thickness? i'm not even sure which ones i have. i think they are hc as i hear the hr ones were grey and the hc ones white. mine are white when they aren't loaded.
knives save lives I don't think so, they are just made for different steels. Stones are pretty similar to knives in that the people selling them often have very little information about them.
Maybe it's just me, but I found the shaptons to be very "dead" feeling. Kinda like fly by wire. They were fast and low maint for sure but I always felt i was missing something as I sharpened on them. I had almost the entire shapton pro series 120, 220, 320,1k,1500,2k,5k,8k,12k,15k...I never bought the 30k and I found the 12k and 15k to be exactly the same, I believe they just dropped the 12k rating and started calling it a 15k. Used them all for a few years because of splash & go speed and low maint. . .eventually lost interest in them as I found the feedback of soaking stones to be superior. . . stones with more feedback and feel like my Besters in 220, 700, 1000 & 1200. . .the naniwa 2k green brick (even though it is just a minimal soak of 5 mins.). Now my splash and go stones are naturals like the red Amakusa, white Amakusa binsui, aoto blue mountain, hideriyamas and a host of Japanese naturals . . . dmt diamond plates 120, 320, 600, 1200 also serve me better for splash & go if that is what I need at the time.
I don't really understand what people are talking about when they note issues of how stones feel in use, they are just abrasives so they are cutting if properly maintained, they will rub/plough if not. Depending on binder they can make three body abrasion readily. I guess some part of this might "feel" good or bad, it just seems odd to me to talk about it in that manner with some kind of emotional content. What do you mean exactly?
Cliff Stamp I mean with a shapton I must constantly look at my work. Always visually inspect it often to see what is happening on the edge since the feel never changes. A faceted edge feels the same as a straight edge and a secondary bevel feels the same the whole time too. With a softer, soaking style, stone I can feel exactly what is happening and need never look at the edge until it "feels" done. I can feel the flats forming and feel the edge smooth out . Hard to explain really but I dont need to constantly see the primary or secondary edge to get the desired results. I tried to make the drive by wire analogy...being connected to the road by tires and suspension and mechanical linkage and not wires. I can tell you tires make a huge difference in how a car "feels" ...same with stones and abrasives and binding matrix...to me anyways.
Cliff Stamp Never used a spyderco ceramic stone, (liked how the white ones felt) just a set of triangles in a jig once that a friend wanted me to buy... I passed. They were too small for me to really tell anything and they had to be set side by side in a holder to use as a bench stone. I really don't like small sharpeners or gimmik sharpeners that dictate angles like the triangles in a holder for upright sharpening or any of the clamps and guides that lock on the blade etc although I do not argue against their effectiveness or results. I just prefer to have and use freehand skills because in a outdoors situation that is all you really have. (let me stop rambling) I prefer 3"x 8" or larger sizes. Arkansas stones have little to no feed back for me either. Rough or new DMT plates have little feedback as well. The only 2 DMT plates I use that have some slight feel are the highest 2 grits I own 600 and 1200 but only after they became well worn and only when I use a small single drop of joy lemon soap on them with the water and make a small bubble bath lather to keep the fines suspended. (try it you'll like it) I think that is because you can feel the resistance on flat areas increase the better and flatter you get your grind otherwise,using them dry, everything feels dead. I only use the dmt plates for splash & go speed and lack of need for prep time-cleanup time when I am in a hurry not really for any feedback. I have both plates and interrupted surface plastic blocks and find the plastic 3x8 blocks to be more useful for sharpening knives and the solid steel plates to be better for chisels and plane blades and dressing waterstones. I carry a dmt red-green pocket folder 600-1200 sharpener with me in my pocket when I go out to use a knife away from the house. I always wanted a 3x5 or smaller ceramic to carry in a pocket to complement the dmt folder though just not sure how durable they were as far as breaking.
Wow thanks for that I just got this stone, I brought 2 jaakapuko knives 110 and 140, they came with secondary bevel and I wanted a true skandi, I ground away on my shapton 320 and to my dismay there was a huge dish in the middle, after seeing your video I realise the stone was wrong and I was not using it correctly, putting lots of force on it, now I will not ruin the 120 thanks to your good knowledge here , shame some other so called experts failed to mention these facts
Very nice commentary. Probably more than anything I look forward to your videos on stones / sharpening / knife care. The stone commentary in particular is always much appreciated as you really put forth the qualifications missing from so many reviews of stones.
Ha, the amusing thing is that I feel my stone commentary is really rough because I am still working through how to describe them in a kind of quantitative manner. I think the scratch pattern comparisons I did recently by taking a knife up to polish and then making a few passes is interesting.
Cliff Stamp Well you hold yourself to a fairly high standard of precision...I'm mostly looking for practical application results, and those you're delivering in spades. The other thing you have to remember is what else is out there in comparison, at least at the standard knife forums. I don't watch much youtube videos outside of the people I follow, but it's hard to get commentary that actually focuses on results (which are also quantified in some manor...relative speed, relative sharpness attained, etc) and not personal preference.
C amber What I am trying to obtain is actually fairly simple - could someone who isn't mean read what I wrote and understand it. The problem is finding a way to measure something that isn't so abstract, it is easy to measure things but I want to be able to do it in a way anyone could easily, hence allow replication. It is coming together I think, as with anything, you learn by doing and feedback/interaction.
Cliff Stamp I figured that's what you were after, but don't underestimate the value of what you're currently doing just bc it's not yet at that level of replicatibility or measurability.
myself love the naniwa professional/choosera stones they work very good for me
The shipping on these must have been significant! Its one of the main reasons why I shy away from buying stones that need to be shipped. I am lucky there are a few Asian markets in my area.
You just have to buy a ton of them, the shipping per stone then is small. Really it it only practical if you are a serious stone geek and buy a dozen of them or do some kind of group buy.
Idk why the shapton pro 120 has so many different info on internet. One says its aluminum oxide, or sic with magnesium bound. Sic with clay. Very facinating how people have different infos to spread around...
Stones are like magic, only the shadow knows. It is very hard to get even basic information on them.
Some discussion on the same stone by the current owner : www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?7,34091,34617#msg-34617
It will be nice to try out some european sharpening stones like Tyrolit or Dronco for an example if you can find them in North America with good prices...
Thanks, I will see what I can turn up.
Cliff Stamp
Building upon that, do you have any experience with Norton waterstones. I remember a forum member (Mark maybe?) not having good things to say about it.
Bill22252 I have not used them extensively, I have flattened a few for friends. I think that was just a case of Norton trying to cash in on the waterstone phase that rolled through woodworking awhile ago and not really a case that they actually added anything to the selection.
Right. Better or worse than something like King?
Bill22252 Seemed similar to me, but I didn't do a lot with them. I have never seen anyone praise them significantly, not even the manufacturer.
This will be an interesting stone to work with. It will be used for removing damage so it won't get used often but when it does it will get a fair work out. It will be interesting to see how it compares to sandpaper on glass and the giant green brick (220 king) also very friable.
Yeah, really curious as to what you make of it especially if you use it on the bevels and not just the flats.
I would be interested to know how long it takes you to remove a mm or so.
Cliff Stamp I should ave measured it when I thinned the bevel on that tang I would bet I was 1-2mm anyways. I will keep track as I use it. That may be a while I'm not working in my shop at all now, just on my house.
Cliff Stamp I should ave measured it when I thinned the bevel on that tang I would bet I was 1-2mm anyways. I will keep track as I use it. That may be a while I'm not working in my shop at all now, just on my house.
Cliff, it would be great if you could do a vid on that chosera 400 grit stone! :) thanks for your work!
Yeah I will be talking about all them at some point, a few of them are likely to become my main working stones.
I have been using the Superstone 400 lately (I just pick them at random). I look forward to the Chosera as it is supposed to be an upgrade to the Superstone series.
That is a nice section of stones. Is there any one in particular that peaks your interest?
The Sigma Power 120 has a strong reputation as a grinding stone, the dual water/oil is just interesting and the dual soft/hard stone as well. The others are just standards that I wanted to work with. The crazy King was just a gift as it could not be sold.
looks like a good stone for reprofiling/sharpening my Japanese style sword blade...
Yeah, for wide contact areas, it works very well, just use enough force so that it cuts - which won't be very much.
Hey Cliff, you mentioned Stew but you didn't mention where you made your purchase
Tools from Japan, there is almost no reason to buy stones from someone other than Stu.
Did you have time to use the suehiro stones?
***** I have used the Suehiro 'Chemical' extensively :
www.cliffstamp.com/knives/reviews/suehiro_chemical_320.html
How was that duel binder stone with the different bonds?
I worked with it a little, I have trouble at times tell which side is which. They are not different enough for me to really see them as having different roles.
Cliff Stamp guess that's why its so obscure, very interesting idea though.
Cliff, how do those Sigma power stones handle HSS and high carbide steels like 10V? I typically use diamond for those steels or for when I do any significant amount of material removal, but have been considering getting into other abrasives just to learn about them.
That is exactly what it is made to cut, the Sigma Power 120. It is very different than the Sigma Power Select series as it doesn't release abrasive initially and later does so only under really heavy pressure.
Lots of more info on the forum.
Maybe I just have low patience for sharpening, but for all the variables to take into account I would much rather use diamonds. They stay flat and cut fast. That being said the uniformity of the edge finish is advantageous.
I have lot of diamond plates and they excel at finishing the apex to coarse and semi-fine finishes. However slid stones are very flexible in use, and waterstones can be manipulated to produce many finishes. But yeah, they are a lot more complex (and messy) to use.
Did you get the edge finally stabilize?
Not even close. However it will run out of fractures before I come close to running out of stones.
Hello Cliff, very interesting video as always. I want youto take a look at something that I found really interesting. Im Russian, born there but lived in the US most of my life byt as someone who knows the language I find interesting channels at times. I came across this slovakian guy who does a lot of rope cutting tests(I know, rope doesn't tell all but the results he gets are unlike anything I have seen). He uses a tormek t7 to sharpen his knives buthe has a special wheel made out of rozsutec which is a slovakian stone around 6k to 8k. He has a chart which you can download on most of his videos and it lists all the knives he tried. The number one knife is an zdp 189 endura with OVER 9000 CUTS IN 20MM ROPE!!! It beat out m390, s125v, cpm rex 121 and other steels. Bythe gas a rockstead and it gave a vetter performance with another tyoe of sharpening than the endura(in the chart he lists the knife, steel, hrc if kniwn, bevel width, angle, amount of cuts per knife, estimated amount for a 10cm blade and ranks in percentage). The channel is pavol sandor. The guy looks likehe knows how to sharpen, he uses a microscope like you, tajes castings of the edge and shows width and angles and all his test zre recorded, sone are 2 hour plus videos, tge endura is close to 6 hoyrs and brojen up I to parts. Sorry fir the long message but I thought this is stuff that's at leadt worth taking a look at. Im trying to find me one of these stones now, so let me know what you think Cliff
Do you know how he decides his stopping point?
I think I would like that stone for a lot of what I sharpen.
Bruce, yeah. I think it will be very nice for Mark as well as he is a wood worker. For most people on traditional v-bevels I think it is likely to be too soft/friable.
I use wood chisels quite a bit and have a few Japanese ones that I need to reprofile and I think that would be great for them.
Bruce, I have been working with a Naniwa Superstone 400 lately and I think that is something you would like. It cuts at a similar speed to the Bester 700 but leaves a much finer finish, is workable over a wider range of steels and has a very soft feeling like a natural stone. The only downside is that you have to spray it often. I have tried soaking it and that helps but even a 15 min soak doesn't fully resolve it as it is sealed on the bottom. I would be cautious of a longer soak as some of these stones can be fragile.
I will give it a try. I just sharpened the 69RC Maxemet and it was hard but not overly so. I saw your video and did not even try a water stone. I used first a coarse Norton and then a fine one. The coarse one is one that Wayne Goddard has made by Norton he does not like their regular one and I forget what it is made of but it is a different material. It cut the bevel with no problem but when I went to the 600 grit fine one it did not cut near as well and it took a while to finish the edge on it. I will soon have a video out on it.
***** They make an aluminum oxide one (India) and a silicon carbide one. With the Maxamet if you use a hard stone (no slurry) the edge is very likely to chip which will make getting it sharp very difficult and those chips will persist a long time even if you have a fine finish. I recommend to finish with a soft stone, the Naniwa Aotoshi is almost ideal as it is like a big muddy brick. However that is a very fine stone do you need something to cut the bevel first. The best way is to stop just before you hit the apex with the coarse stone, then apex on the Naniwa Superstone 400, do just a little work on the Aotoshi and then set the micro-bevel how you want. These are just examples of stones, there are lots similar. For example the King's are very soft/muddy as well and dirt cheap. If you have to sharpen them on a hard cutting stone then you can reduce the chipping by adding just a small amount lubricant, assuming you are not using oil. However you have to be careful because soaps can mangle some waterstones as it breaks down the bonds. Shapton warns severely about trying it with their Pro's.
Man oh man you must have spent a pretty penny on those. I have never seen one person order so many sharpening stones at one time lol.
Ha, it was only Canada dollars.
Will this stone work good for re-profiling?
Yes, however unless you are grinding a very high carbide blade (and/or very extreme contact areas), the low binding strength is going to cause too much grit wastage.
Cliff Stamp thanks for replying. I got the stone in about a week ago and love it. No carbide blades for me, only carbide I have is a pull through carbide cutter which I won’t be needing anymore thanks to this stone.
Thank you for undertaking this examination of Japanese waterstones. It should go a good way towards clearing up some of the weaboo myth and confusion that seems to surround these things.
There are a lot of nice japanese stones, but there are a lot of nice non-japanese stones as well. The katana-like myth around japanese culture is fairly interesting though, especially when you compare it to other cultures such as look at the German knives from Herder as an example of cutting ability refined to an extreme level.
Cliff Stamp
I think it is kind of amusing that for all the popularity of Japanese stones in NA knife culture, traditional Japanese knives don't really attract all that much attention beyond kitchen knives.
Bill22252 There is significant ingress into wood working (the chisels are often popular), tactical is huge and even small-utility has its influence as well. The folders are really nice though, and there isn't much EDC and the wood working blades are rarely spoke of. It is curious as they all have similar features/behaviors. As with most things popularity can often come down to having (or lack of) various people to aggressively push them.
The Japanese influence on folders was pretty much pushed into the background in my mind. I'm not really sure how I forgot the role that Seki Japan's knife makers have played in making the clipit and tactical folder popular.
But things like cladded steels (I'm not including ZT's composites) and the various grinds used on Japanese knives really haven't caught on in some cases, although the bushcrafters do seem to approve of japanese single bevel blades.
Bill22252 Yeah, a lot of it though is very integral. The Japanese style grinds for example do not work very well if the steel isn't cladded, just try grinding down those big / wide bevels on western style steels. The cladding can't work either if you don't use the knives like the Japanese do as they are extremely weak. Spyderco has tried it on a few folders with the SuperBlue and people get really shocked at how easy they bend.
what's the difference between the shapton pro and m5 series?
The M5 is a much smaller stone, it is only 5 mm thick. They are meant more for hobby rather than professional work so don't have the full ability of the Pro line in terms of cutting ability / dish resistance. I have not used them, that is just how they are promoted. They are much lower in cost, but again are only 5 mm thick. But most people would never wear out a 2 cm thick stone anyway.
that's all the shapton glass stones are is 5mm .
knives save lives Yes, the M5 is an older line. There are even two lines of glass stones, HR and HC.
do the hr and hc differ in thickness? i'm not even sure which ones i have. i think they are hc as i hear the hr ones were grey and the hc ones white. mine are white when they aren't loaded.
knives save lives I don't think so, they are just made for different steels. Stones are pretty similar to knives in that the people selling them often have very little information about them.
Maybe it's just me, but I found the shaptons to be very "dead" feeling. Kinda like fly by wire. They were fast and low maint for sure but I always felt i was missing something as I sharpened on them. I had almost the entire shapton pro series 120, 220, 320,1k,1500,2k,5k,8k,12k,15k...I never bought the 30k and I found the 12k and 15k to be exactly the same, I believe they just dropped the 12k rating and started calling it a 15k. Used them all for a few years because of splash & go speed and low maint. . .eventually lost interest in them as I found the feedback of soaking stones to be superior. . . stones with more feedback and feel like my Besters in 220, 700, 1000 & 1200. . .the naniwa 2k green brick (even though it is just a minimal soak of 5 mins.). Now my splash and go stones are naturals like the red Amakusa, white Amakusa binsui, aoto blue mountain, hideriyamas and a host of Japanese naturals . . . dmt diamond plates 120, 320, 600, 1200 also serve me better for splash & go if that is what I need at the time.
I don't really understand what people are talking about when they note issues of how stones feel in use, they are just abrasives so they are cutting if properly maintained, they will rub/plough if not. Depending on binder they can make three body abrasion readily. I guess some part of this might "feel" good or bad, it just seems odd to me to talk about it in that manner with some kind of emotional content.
What do you mean exactly?
Cliff Stamp I mean with a shapton I must constantly look at my work. Always visually inspect it often to see what is happening on the edge since the feel never changes. A faceted edge feels the same as a straight edge and a secondary bevel feels the same the whole time too. With a softer, soaking style, stone I can feel exactly what is happening and need never look at the edge until it "feels" done. I can feel the flats forming and feel the edge smooth out . Hard to explain really but I dont need to constantly see the primary or secondary edge to get the desired results. I tried to make the drive by wire analogy...being connected to the road by tires and suspension and mechanical linkage and not wires. I can tell you tires make a huge difference in how a car "feels" ...same with stones and abrasives and binding matrix...to me anyways.
Robert Schmidt
Robert, how do you feel about the Spyderco ceramics or the x-fine and above DMT plates?
Cliff Stamp Never used a spyderco ceramic stone, (liked how the white ones felt) just a set of triangles in a jig once that a friend wanted me to buy... I passed. They were too small for me to really tell anything and they had to be set side by side in a holder to use as a bench stone. I really don't like small sharpeners or gimmik sharpeners that dictate angles like the triangles in a holder for upright sharpening or any of the clamps and guides that lock on the blade etc although I do not argue against their effectiveness or results. I just prefer to have and use freehand skills because in a outdoors situation that is all you really have. (let me stop rambling) I prefer 3"x 8" or larger sizes. Arkansas stones have little to no feed back for me either. Rough or new DMT plates have little feedback as well. The only 2 DMT plates I use that have some slight feel are the highest 2 grits I own 600 and 1200 but only after they became well worn and only when I use a small single drop of joy lemon soap on them with the water and make a small bubble bath lather to keep the fines suspended. (try it you'll like it) I think that is because you can feel the resistance on flat areas increase the better and flatter you get your grind otherwise,using them dry, everything feels dead. I only use the dmt plates for splash & go speed and lack of need for prep time-cleanup time when I am in a hurry not really for any feedback. I have both plates and interrupted surface plastic blocks and find the plastic 3x8 blocks to be more useful for sharpening knives and the solid steel plates to be better for chisels and plane blades and dressing waterstones. I carry a dmt red-green pocket folder 600-1200 sharpener with me in my pocket when I go out to use a knife away from the house. I always wanted a 3x5 or smaller ceramic to carry in a pocket to complement the dmt folder though just not sure how durable they were as far as breaking.
Robert Schmidt
Just to clarify, you don't get feedback off of the coarse DMT but you do for the x-fine ones?
i can clearly see you that you like coarser stones