Why You Can't Get Good at Roguelikes
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- čas přidán 28. 06. 2024
- Are roguelikes too hard? Are the mechanics just unfair? Or are you just not good enough? Let's answer one of the most pressing questions regarding the gameplay of the roguelike genre.
Timestamps:
0:00 - Intro
2:35 - What's the issue?
5:32 - What can we do?
8:17 - Conclusion
Music used:
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v1.0 - Hry
for me it always boils down to what the shopkeeper in gungeon will tell you on occasion: "If you're not dodging, you're dying"
If only it were so easy
@@hollowknightenjoyer yeah lol like i say that but then play games like dead cells like a maniac always holding forward... it's no wonder i can't beat it on the highest difficulty
@@loganowens623 what
Great roguelikes are designed with several satisfying "Jumping off points" for a player to reach, while leaving room to climb for engaged players. Look at all the places you could reasonably quit playing Hades: First escape from underworld, credits sequence, "true ending" epilogue, 16 heat achievement, 32 heat skelly statue, or push all the way to "Unseen One" with the resource director.
To me, picking one of those points to stop isn't really "dropping" the game. Rather, you are picking a level of completion that is right for you.
Thumbs up both for the name and the comment
I stopped Hades after my first escape. It took me a long time to reach that point, and it felt satisfying enough to stop the game. I completely agree with your statement
@@christophertemple8120 Yeah, it's a great point to put the game down. The scene with Zagreus first seeing the sun, meeting Persephone, and learning that he still can't stay on the surface feels like the bittersweet end of a Greek tragedy.
This is the most legit comment I've seen regarding this topic.
HUGE thumbs up! 👍
Hades after first escape, wasn't really a fan but wanted to see the ending (even if it wasn't a true ending). Did it, felt complete and left mostly positive.
The hardest settings of some roguelikes force you into playing one archetype, the moment that happens it is no longer a roguelike
Yeah, I kinda agree with this.
It's no fun when, say, a magic build is completely useless at a higher level.
But that's where the devs come in! They hear us and they do their best to change things like that! In some cases, at least.
Depends on the game in question. If we're talking Dead Cells, you can compensate for almost anything the game throws at you by getting good enough, fighting is mostly skill/knowledge-based. Even relatively bad runs can be carried out to the end, with enough experience. In many card battling games like Slay the Spire, bad card draws can doom a run even with ideal input, sometimes due to earlier mistakes in deck building, other times simply due to drawing luck.
Yeah. Having randomness doesn't make your game a rouge-like. A rouge-like is a game that tests true mastery over memorization.
Yeah for example The silent in Slay the spire can only kill heart with stacking poison build, which while fun, gets pretty dull after a bit. And not to mention that you need good rng with the cards you get too.
@@Just_B0red that's completely not true. In fact, stacking poison on Silent is one of the least reliable builds you can play. She has so much card draw and energy gain from discarding cards to cycle the deck that even Grand Finale build is more consistent with damage than poison
I can't tell you how many hours I've put into dead cells, and I can't tell you equally how many times I've walked away after a crushing defeat. The beauty of the roguelike is that nothing is the same, and only you can tell weather you are improving or not
DC has some brutal biomes. The worst 3 for me so far are Sepulchre, Lighthouse and Distillery. I used 20% dmg traps from assist mode and the dumb barrels still do 1k dmg.
@@Gaze73 Tip: Don't go to Distillery, literally one of the worst biomes in the game. Just go to High Peak Castle or something but not that horrendous hellhole.
Tbh Lighthouse is more of a boss biome really, but yea I hate it too.
Forgotten sepulcher? Why?
Edit: nvm this reply is 5 months ago, you're prob at like 3-5 BC rn.
The #1 skill, and one of the hardest to attain, is objective self-analysis. Recording or not, the ability to see where you went wrong, and attempt to make adjustments is key. It gets harder as you get more mastery, because mistakes become increasingly more subtle. People start to anchor what is RNG based on what they perceive at the time, and that's where they start to fail. That's where they deviate from evidence, including the simple fact that there are dozens to thousands of players that mysteriously manage much higher win %s, on higher difficulties.
I've seen players claim runs were unwinnable in FTL with overwhelmingly dubious statistical unlikelihood. Multiple people have attained > 100 win streaks on that game, on hard. It's possible you lose a run here or there to RNG on hard...but when you're not routinely hitting double digit streaks, making that conclusion about any one run should invite heavy scrutiny. Most roguelike runs are wins with perfect play, and people can't do literally perfect play. The closer you get, the more you win. Knowing that, and simply finding + acknowledging mistakes as often as possible so you can improve them, is the path to mastering even highly challenging roguelikes.
Similarly, there are very, very few unwinnable Isaac runs. People claim it's luck-based, and to the extent you get good items vs not, there is luck. But the really good players in that one not only avoid damage consistently (which cascades into more opportunity to improve builds), they can also make optimized decisions on each floor more easily and also just win with crappy items.
More than min-maxing or sheer hour investment, the most important thing is to refuse to turn away from the truth. Even when the truth is uncomfortable. Do that for long enough, and you can accept said truth and enjoy these games for what they are.
what you said is extremely accurate and i learned the hard way to get over my ego and understand what is my fault and what isn't.
so, slight spoilers about the game, i have about 500 hours into enter the gungeon, i play that game so much, i unlocked everything and overall, i just love the game. despite this, i used to blame so much of my failures on "rng drops" and never realised how many mistakes i was making. what finally made it to click with me was that i did "starter only" runs with marine guy, i picked up literally no guns and no items except master rounds, shields and heart drops. it was all one gun run with no assets. i almost killed fourth boss with it, almost. i went into last phase of kill pillars, which is so simple to dodge for me, yet being nervous got the best of me and i died on it. this was the biggest revelation. basically, it is possible to consistently beat at least first 5 floors with just starter weapon if you play really, really well (the ONLY exception is your inability to kill wallmonger with starter gun), therefore, even if you get items that are crappiest of them all, your run will be significantly stronger compared to "starter only" run, which means that if i am actually picking up the items like i am supposed to, i should theoratically have 100% chance to beat not only first 5 floors, but i assume 6th secret floor should be guaranteed as well.
that is my main takeaway and i completely agree with everything you said.
Games with more ACTION are almost all winnable no matter your luck, if you perfrct skill. Hades prigrams special dialog for beating characters without progressive Darkness buffs, or without any God Boons, for a reason. Isaac, Gungeon, and RoR are also good examples
I will say that Deck Building roguelikes are MORE luck based. The pure strategy makes it more like solving a math problem. Strategy is King, but I could see runs being truly unwinnable if not offered the right cards and events. Spire and Inscryption would fit this. HOWEVER, even in these games, players should he humble and accept its possible they could have won had they made better choices.
@@kyleserfass4455 Yes, there are hypothetical unwinnable scenarios. In DCSS too (where I'm pretty good) it can happen. But players attain enormous win streaks in these games, so it's not probable. Saying something is unwinnable is worth heavy scrutiny for the person suspecting that, even in these.
it is so VERY easy to try to shift blame to make one feel better about themselves. it's a super common defense mechanism of the ego. "this game is bullshit, it's impossible, it's all luck based, they must have been cheating or abusing glitches to beat me, etc."
it's fine to let off steam by shouting those things, but if someone truly wants to become better, they have to calm down and seriously reflect. Is the game really bullshit? Or did you just fuck up somewhere? Are your opponents really "cheating"? Or was there a mistake that you made that you weren't aware of?
I'm not gonna say that every game is always fair 100% of the time, because that's just not true, but like you said, people should try to view it as objectively and unbiased as possible. Before blaming the game, you should first see if there is anything that you can change about your approach to it. It's so much easier said than done, but if you can learn to do it, then many of these games really do become more enjoyable.
@@Ausar0 yeah, even in relatively high RNG games like hearthstone, your skill is more important than you think. honestly, i don't blame people who complain about luck in that patricular game, because a lot can happen and a lot of things are outside of your control.
there are other things though, hearthstone is such a great example for this topic even though it is not roguelike. thing you have to realize is that, as much as you get unlucky in one game, you are getting equally lucky in another. what this means is that your luck actually balances out at the end of the day. if you are playing legit good meta deck, you can't control luck, but what you can do is to make sure you actually win lucky games while also adapting to situations so skilfully that you can occasionally pull off come backs in unlucky games. see what i mean? even hearthstone of all things rewards skill and dedication in the long run, even in hearthstone, you should take a look at yourself before blaming the game.
This is my story with Dead Cells: I went to 3BC, hit a wall, was unable to progress and burned out. At this point I don't have the endurance to return to The Island. But hey, that was 300 hours into the game, so I guess I got my money's worth
3BC is basically the same as 2BC
3BC should not be a problem unless you had a op build in 2BC
Same, i also stopped playing at 3BC, i felt a spike that made it hard for me to keep wanting to play.
Ah I finally got over the spike in 3 bc I kinda regret it csuse 4 bc is a nightmare but I’ll get through it by Most likely oct
@@triggerhappy4199 gratz man
@@triggerhappy4199 5bc player here
Don't. You. Dare.
Stay on 4bc if you love yourself
When i go back to 0BC at Dead Cells, i can clearly see how much i improve, i remember when i think that Concierge is the final and hardest boss, now he's just a basic enemy with more health
I'm bad and I beat Concierge on my very first run. Lost in the fractured shrine because I didn't know what cursed treasure does. Then reached the final boss on the second run but he was too stronk.
I used to hate playing difficult videogames because I hated losing. Roguelikes helped break me out of that mindset and I feel that losing really just means I'm being challenged and I'm getting more skillful. Deaths are a badge of honor. A high amount of deaths is a sign of persistence and tenacity.
Same with me! Hades made me realized that losing is just the beginning of the journey. Reading your comment made me realize it even more that I'm growing and learning. Well said sleye!
Same but now not dying is borring so that's why i love Soulsborne game and also Roguelike. It challenges you and is not gentle with you.
It took me 3 years to beat dead cells on 5bc(through the 5bc door)
Its amazing how i didn't run to final 5bc boss spoiler yet, i mean no details other that it exists, also congrats
@@plantplayer303 Lucky you, i bought the game a few months ago and after beating the game once and getting the first BC, i saw a YT vid pop up, something along the lines of "[REDACTED] secret final boss"
@@empicamper not cool, i still think its hard to get spoilers for final boss in this community
Almost 3 years for me; I got it christmas of 2018 and beat 5bc in august of 2021
@@plantplayer303 that's true, so far that video title was the one time i have ever had anyone spoil the thing for me, glad you didnt come across it yet, I'm praying for you that it stays that way
Your next video should be
"Why You Just Can't Seem To Figure Out The Difference Between Roguelikes And Roguelites"
I am unbilievebly slow at progressing in games, yet I've beat Hollow Knight, Celeste (Farewell) And Cuphead, but because I enjoy the games I've played Cuphead for 300 hours, Hollow Knight for 500 hours and Celeste for 400 hours.
As long as you really like the game you can probably beat it.
But those arent roguelikes
@@hollowcookie9648 Thats true, but it aplies to most games. Roguelikes just have a stronger effect because of permadeath.
I had to drop deadcells at the third cell, i became too hard for me to enjoy. I love to make the game a bit harder each time, so you can get accostumed to it, but dead cells for me was a really big jump that made it clear that it wasn't it.
Yeah its hard I dropped it at 2bc cause I didnt wanna play with shields and it got too hard
@@diegomastro5681 you don't need shields. But it's really important to max the weapon forge. Without that even the best players will struggle.
My least favorite thing in a roguelike is when certain builds do become the de-facto winning builds, because all of a sudden the balance has to tip from “have fun and do what you like” to “do exactly this or you’ll lose”. You can call it focusing your build or optimizing or whatever, but a lot of the time it comes down to a small number of strategies being endgame viable while a large number are not. A lot of games don’t fall in to this trap, but a lot of games do. I love Slay the Spire, but unless you’re played other TCGs, you’re probably not going to think to refuse cards to increase the chance of drawing a small number of good ones. You can’t just grab all the cool cards and do your best, you have to pass up stuff that looks fun and stuff you like to pick the stuff that performs, and the game won’t tell you that. Same thing with something like Wizard of Legend. That’s probably one of the reasons a game like Dead Cells feels so good, because you can legitimately screw around and still win with a huge number of builds if you’re patient and careful.
There are other solutions to the "consistency of cards" problem
-lots of draw with things like Dark Embrace or several copies of Acrobatics
-holding cards in hand with things like Well-Laid Plans or Runic Pyramid
-card manipulation like Meditate, Hologram+, Headbutt, or Rebound
Whilst a slimmer deck does help, most of my winning decks have around 30 cards
I mostly agree, but w/ StS my experience has been a bit different. Closest to what you're saying was watcher, I kinda developed a "do exactly this" strat and would consistently beat the Heart at A20, but then when I couldn't "do exactly this" I'd lose. But I guess after that I started trying wacky stuff and to my surprise sometimes it works (like pressure points build cause I got it early, or some divinity builds). Also started watching some streamers and they'd usually build way more "open" than I did, then by doing that I feel like the consistency improved even further. And w/ Defect, for instance, I feel like I depend on that "openess" to play well.
The curve for me was like "suck at the game" -> "figure out good strats and stick to them" -> "realize that it's actually better to have a more open strat"
But yeah, I've played other tcgs before and refusing cards/not adding too much was a given for me from the start (but as far as I recall, realizing that w/ the 1st one was a very rewarding moment lol)
"I love Slay the Spire, but unless you’re played other TCGs, you’re probably not going to think to refuse cards to increase the chance of drawing a small number of good ones."
In games that have a "traditional" hunger mechanic, a brand-new player might not think and see the benefit of not immediately eating food as soon as they have some level of hunger, reasoning that perhaps, hunger is bad, so I should handle it immediately, only to later starve to death for lack of having managed their food resource.
STS I think, falls into the same category as this. Sure, maybe a new player wouldn't see the benefits of refusing a card choice, but the game makes it _very_ apparent, _very_ quickly in a variety of ways.
For example, numerous options to remove cards from your deck. A new player might think "Oh, a way to correct choice mistakes." If they never thought about the mechanic again, ever, I could see that being their final conclusion. But with repeated play, "card choice mistakes" become less and less common, and so then is the player to just assume card removal is a mechanic, in a game whose vaguely-defined and hotly-contested genre has a reputation for being "unfairly difficult" would implement a mechanic that is strictly to the benefit of a completely green player? That's absurd in context. A non-thinking player might never realize there's a benefit to removing cards from one's deck, but for everyone else, it becomes self-evident, as said, _very_ quickly.
But if that's too difficult a task for the player, there's even the very nature of randomized draws pointing out the benefits of selecting cards carefully. If a player finds, as they certainly will, that in fights, when they get their certain "good cards" they're more successful than when they don't get them, surely they can be trusted to realize that _if only they could draw their good cards more often they'd win more._ Every kid with a favourite Skittle colour comes to this same conclusion with some super-basic problem solving and minimal effort, that "If I had a bag of Skittles with only the green ones, I'd never reach in and pull out anything but green, and I only want green, so the more green, and the less of everything else, the better."
There are more examples I can point out, that help in teaching this knowledge, these are just two of them.
ALSO, you totally can just "grab all the cool cards and do your best." That's a valid playstyle, and in the base game, you can also win pretty regularly doing exactly that. Unless you try something very specific and fail to achieve it, if you have a workable (not good, just functioning) grasp on how to handle fights within fights, you can win at least 70% of the time, maybe more. For a so-called roguelike, that's INCREDIBLY forgiving.
The other part of this is, in almost _every_ game, you can't do just whatever you want, and also expect to win. In Super Mario Brothers, you're required to move to the right to complete levels. You don't _have_ to move to the right, but if you want to win, you have to do it, even if you don't want to. In STS, you can play thoughtlessly, and just do whatever you want on a whim, but if you want to win, certain things that benefit that goal need to be done. Again, on Ascension 0, the list of "things required to win" is pretty short. It's only once you get a few ascension levels in that the list really becomes any longer, and at Ascension 20, that list is genuinely massive, and nuanced, and requires careful consideration.
ALSO, ALSO, randomness is part of what makes a game fun. If every card were "perfectly balanced" to be viable with any other card, such that you could make card selections at complete random, and select every time, with little to no detriment, you would have removed the random element of card selection entirely. If every card is just as good as all the other cards, does the choice of what card one takes, or does not take, matter at all? Why pick up a Headbutt when you have strikes and defends? All the cards, as they are, in any combination at this point are viable for a win, so why select anything at all? Why even have other cards in the game? Shoot, since every card is viable in every deck, in every situation, as it would necessarily need to be in order to achieve this prefect world you complain about lacking where one can "grab all the cool cards and do your best," why bother having different enemies? You can beat them all with any and all deck configurations, so what does it matter? Shoot, why even make a game at all? You can just sit in your room, put an action figure in front of you, draw a random card from a standard playing deck and declare you won a fight against that action-figure enemy, and it'd take as much skill as the game you describe. The one you describe as having fallen into the trap of "not every strategy, even objectively bad ones, can win."
If you just want to pretend to be good at something, you can do that on your own. If you want to actually be good at something, then that necessitates a world in which choices can be bad, strategies can be insufficient, and in which they can't all be zingers, because without a way to fail, there is no such thing as victory.
That's the interesting thing about Slay the Spire. In the beginning, most people start out never skipping cards, then getting too many cards and loosing, later they adapt and learn to skip, but then often comes a point where the player begins to skip too much, only choosing cards which they have had success with previously, causing the deck to be too one dimensional or just missing key things at certain moments.
Then you eventually get to the point where you realize skipping cards is mostly a bad thing, and instead you should learn to maximize the benefit of each card choice, most of the time choosing a card except in specific circumstances or when the offered cards don't benefit you at the moment (or are just bad), optimizing your play and your deck building plan to both the encounters you are facing at the moment and planning ahead for the future.
Jorbs is a most excellent player, probably the best Slay the Spire player in the world, and over the years, he has started skipping less often, instead making the most out of each card choice and finding clever ways to use all the cards offered, often ending with a pretty thick deck around the early 30's (Which, during the skill growth curve of players when they are learning to use the skip, their decks will usually be around the early 20's).
The skill growth curve of Slay the Spire is probably one of the most interesting and deep for any rogue like. The game is unbelievably deep when approaching the human skill ceiling.
@@luka188 yeah
My winning decks have somewhere around 25-30 cards
I really like the way you explain roguelike/lite games.
I love this kind of game and it has become my favorite genre.
This was really well put together. Great work!
Allow me to add to the discussion...
- First thing's first: roguelikes are deliberately hard. Suppose you were playing a classic Genesis Sonic game on a single life. Would it honestly be that hard? Not really. Rings provide regenerative protection in most cases, and no challenge is too difficult for a dedicated pre-teen to eventually overcome. Roguelikes are made by, and designed for, a generation of people now in their 20s-40s who grew up on a certain style of video gaming. These people want it to be hard (but fair) and want it to be a legit alternative to AAA games that one can play on a low-to-mid performance computer. We want to play a modernized deckbuilder/RPG/platformer/etc. that crosses genres, adds randomness, and can be beaten in an hour or two. We want every run to be different and we want an adult-level challenge for dedicated gamers.
- Secondly, not all roguelikes are the same. I'm way better at pure tactical ones than I am at ones that combine action (especially if you have to memorize very specific enemy patterns and dodge quickly). One should not expect skill at one roguelike to transfer to another. I'm an A20 player in Spire, I'm pretty good at ROR2, and I've only beaten Skul a handful of times.
- Lastly, "practice doesn't make perfect". Instead, "perfect practice makes perfect". In other words, one must practice the right way in order to truly improve. If you keep making the same mistakes, you'll never get better. One has to acquire objective truths about the game from "runs" and then implement that knowledge effectively. Most non-roguelikes have a huge window for error. This is not true for our beloved roguelike genre.
Minor historical note, but the generation who made and enjoy roguelikes extends into their 60s, seeing as the genre started almost 40 years ago, but otherwise that's pretty spot on.
I had a dead cells run today and got through 3 bioms without getting hit. I then got hit three times more or less in a row by the same enemy and just died. And this was just 2bc. Sometimes rouglikes just feel shitty even if you play well
just use disengagement
If you're a fast paced player, don't be afraid to slow it down sometimes and keep a shield on you, it's your best friend
I know the game kind of pushes you to move quickly by rewarding you for it, but those rewards don't matter if you die
Do some mock runs and work out different strats with different setups
@@semen_gaming9203 yeah, I really need to work on mutation decisions
@osspaljeni quit the game. Wasn't fun once I reached 2bc
The fact that Dead Cells even goes up to 5BC is I guess neat for the supreme hardcore fanatics to wring some more life out of it. The fact that they hid an entire boss and ending behind completing _multiple runs_ on the highest of those difficulty levels is... less neat.
This video is actually pretty inspirational
Since I've lost my 5bc save, I've been trying to get there again, but it's tough, I'm stuck on 3bc again lol
I had a similar issue too, lost my 4bc save, and now stuck on 3bc too, but I'm more boomed about it bc of the items i lost, i unlocked some things that are hard and lost it, guess it's just time to grind again
@@duseifert same dude
It's hard to do certain builds without some items
And I just miss some of them in general, like the great owl, the lacerating aura and many othersq
Edit: at least we have the hunter's grenade, which quite useful for that stuff
Same here man, just casually playing the game cause I know I achieved everything already, now time to have fun
I’m going to apply this to speedrunning that part where you said do you want to win or have fun really hit for me good video
Man, this video made me go back to the beginnings of when I started to play Dead Cells, and I'm surprised of how everything you said here is not even true, but happened to me from my very first run to today as I keep playing.
I did feel excited when I started to play, getting to new biomes and fighting bosses for the first time, it was the "hobby" at the moment. Then it turned more serious, getting my first Boss Cell, then my second one. After that I hit my first roadblock and couldn't continue, I felt burnout, stopped playing the game for a good while, but it kept calling me, every run felt like a new experience, so I decided to learn the game in order to progress, watching your videos and understanding every mechanic the game had, and after a good while and many retries, I managed to pass 2BC and shot straight up to 5BC, beating the last boss (at the moment) in less than half of the time that it took me to go from 0BC to 2BC.
And now I'm really close to 100%-ing the game, I already got all of the boss no-hits except for the Lighthouse fight, and I'm only missing the Queen DLC achievements and weapons/skins. This video made me realize how much of an achievement is that, how I did, in every term, got gud.
Thank you so much Pseychie. :)
i remember trying to beat Hush as The Lost in The Binding of Isaac: Afterbirth. When i finally did it i actually started screaming. You just gotta pull through!
You never stop getting better. The curve at which you improve is just steeper and slower. Practice makes perfect
Incredible video. It seems so applicable to just about any situation you can imagine - whether rogue-like or life skill. It takes time and luck and you're just along for the ride.
Really? I got nothing from this video. No "secret tips" to get into Roguelikes, he basically spent 8 minutes to say "You have to like the game already, and be willing to commit to it." Well no shit, we all knew that already. I guess the answer is, "If you don't already like Roguelikes, you just don't like them." Which is fair I guess, but the title suggested he had some sort of solution for people who wanted to get into them but didn't like them.
haha, nah, we've got assist mode in Dead Cells now. 😆
After months and months and months of being stuck on 1bc I turned on assist for 3 retries and only needed 1 to get to 2bc. But 2bc has made me a much better player, weird. Ive now completed 1bc twice with no retries.....noticed I had gotten a lot better and so retried 1bc just to see. And I nearly got 3bc yesterday, reckon its only a few more tries. I know some people dont like it being added by I LOVE it, its made me enjoy DC all over again.
This is exactly why I thought it was so fantastic they added it.
I really like it, too. Because you can retry the biome that you struggle with. Like I usually struggle with some of the later ones but going through the first biomes feels a bit like a "waste" if all I want to do is to try and get better at that one late biome. Now I can easily retry and test around.
It also frees your mind a bit so you try out more stuff instead of sticking to a reliable tactic. That can sometimes result in risky but really strong builds. It's also less "stress" to pick up a cursed chest.
I was struggling hard but now 2BC doesn't seem to be an issue anymore, pretty much at all. And it feels way more fun than 0BC
And I do see that it just improves my overall skill and joy for the game since I'm also playing it on mobile and I pretty much got to 2bc in one go without the assist mode available there at all.
@@LipziG3R Agree with every single word of that. ;P
Nice video, I just recently put the same question in synthetik reddit forum and got the most toxic and expected reply, get good, but now I will remember your video if I keep dying in rogue likes
So helpful thanks Pseychie. What do you think about using a certain run to practice a certain skill? I.e. spending a dead cells run on focusing parrying, or avoiding damage generally, instead of just focusing on winning?
My most memorable run in Isaac was when I had a really good run as Azazel and decided to sac some hearts in the sac room. I played it one too many times and got warped to the dark room (at the time i was still getting polaroid/negative pieces). I almost killed the lamb, but I choked and died. Definitely some of the most fun i ever had.
thank you for this video. i honestly think i needed to see it.
I've recently started playing returnal and find this really interesting nice vid
Thanks for video!
Regarding Zenless Zone Zero and its monetization, I'm pretty sure that was already baked in the cards from day 1. I'm assuming it will follow a Genshin-like system where permanent character upgrades are tied to getting duplicates of them from gacha system, along with permanent items that you can take with you at the start of the run to augment your characters and act as a form of persistent upgrade.
Yes, there will probably be moments when you absolutely destroy a run because a modifier made it so that the enemies were all 300% more vulnerable to the specific form of damage you specialize your characters in. But, considering the nature of mobile games and the type of player they're courting to stay afloat (whales), I'm guessing there's going to be a lot of opportunity to pay your way to victory like pulling on rare equipment or just powering up your characters a lot sooner, which might cause a vicious cycle for F2P players when the increasing difficulties of a run and modifiers start to make them hit a wall power-wise.
I'm looking forward to the game for its aesthetics and sense of style, but if it gets as P2W or just "pay to have fun" with how much the free players will be frustrated or anyone but the most dedicated, no life, never touches grass crowd, it might be something I have to drop and enjoy from the sidelines.
And I'm someone who doesn't even have a "working, productive adult life" and theoretically all the time in the world to compensate for my having no disposable income.
Here is a revised quote: "If I died, I was *once* bad at the game and now better at it."
One element I find with roguelikes is that they're typically the least fun when you first start. Before you have a sense of how the systems work and interact.
Almost the complete opposite for me. Almost. It starts out fairly interesting to me because I am experiencing everything for the first time. After many runs -- still fairly early in my time with the game -- is where I tend to have the most fun. There's still a lot that's new and I've gotten the basic gist of it and have some ideas of how to get further. Then some time later my interest begins to drop steadily -- this may be several hours into the gameplay or a a number of days of going through the same run again and again because I just can't get past a thing through a combination of "bad luck" (not getting the stuff I _am_ skilled with) and not enough skill to succeed when luck is finally in my favor (I slip up somehow, lose focus, etc). I become frustrated and eventually get sick of it and move on to something else because I don't have as much free time as I wish I did. I know some people absolutely love that way of playing a game, but I can only do it for so long before I'm just completely bored of the cycle.
I do have a theory, though, that there's a big overlap between people who genuinely enjoy gambling and those who like the roguelike cycle. I hate gambling, I know winning is a statistically unlikely event (ideally where skills means nothing because that's how proper gambling makes a casino money) so the sting of loss far, far, far outweighs the rare thrill of a win. BUT, I know several people who love to gamble. And of those who regularly play video games, they do gravitate toward roguelikes and similar games.
Hades and Dead Cells proves that wrong im an adult with limited time and my time is important to me.If a game fails to engage me I quit. I have played 100s and 100s of Videogames over the course of my lifetime and know myself very well and my tastes and patience in the types of games I enjoy.What kept me playing Dead Cells and Hades was how good the combat and fast they were.Roguelikes need short replayable gameplay loops to keep me coming back.
i could not get away from noita for an entire week. after i beat the game on run 235 i just didnt wanna go do all the extraordinary amounts of extra shit & secrets.
vampirism was the key for me, but my god it got so damn tedious backtravelling for hours, looking for blood to slowly heal my then huge gotten hp-bar. i had to play that way because i know how crushing the game can be... i had to make extra extra extra sure. finished the game with 3 full flasks of blood on me. final boss never touched me.
My problem with the genre is how repetitive they are. It gets boring fighting the same enemies through the same areas over and over and over again.
Thats the thing, you gotta have some variety with your items.
I love playing enter the gungeon cuz I'm ALWAYS using a new weapon, I'm ALWAYS testing out a new item, so, even tho it's the same enemies, I never fight them the same way
What game gives you new enemies no matter how many times you play it?
Im calling bullshit here. This is a problem with every game thats ever existed. This is a problem thats impossible to solve.
If you cant get out of the first area, i agree. FTL was like that for me.
The thing I like is that even though it's the same enemies, you get put in different situations. Take into the breach for example, you got robots, kill bugs, and protect buildings. But the buildings and bugs are randomized, so no run feels the same.
In other games you get variety with the builds, prime example isaac albeit i dont like it.
In others you get different things depending on how fast you go (risk of rain, kinda dedcells)
Just find what you like, I'd recommend ITB if you like those kind of turn based, kinda like chess but easier games
Tell me you're stuck on the first floor without *telling* me you're stuck on the first floor
@@dirtydan9785 Tell me you don't have an argument without *telling* me you don't have an argument.
Thanks! I needed that 😅
Loved this
I used to hate rogue likes, and wouldn't even start them, until I had an pair of epiphanies while playing breath of the wild. I went in to that game thinking I'd hate the weapon durability mechanic. I loved the way it had me trying any and every weapon in the game, and kept things new. Then, later, I realized I kept making new games and saves. I was resetting progress on my own anyway, especially in games I love. How many minecraft worlds did I create? How many skyrim and oblivion characters? How often did I play the original Super Mario Bros? Rogue likes have that reset built in. It made me view them in a new light, and give them a fair shake.
Great Video! As someone who loves roguelikes and REALLY got into FTL for a while, I think I can echo one of your points. It really is about setting your own goals, finding the fun in optimizing your strategies and thinking about what is possible for you to do. I beat that game with some stupid self imposed challenges, like using neither shields nor cloaking on hard. It's the kind of challenge that naturally results in having to do a lot of restarts, but I was fine with it. What motivated was showing that it was possible and that I had the skill to do it. At least if RNG shows a bit of mercy.
I know some people that get frustrated by roguelikes that don't feature upgrade systems between runs, because they feel like any loss is a waste. I do get it, even if I know for myself that I always saw it more as a learning opportunity and a chance to get better. I think the genre is not for everyone, but those who enjoy it can really get into it. That's the magic of the genre.
I like games with sidegrades. instead of making each run easier with grinding, you unlock more variety; take into the breach for example, you just unlock new squads that play drasrically different
Also ITB got a free expansion a week ago, if you haven't please go play it
@@diegomastro5681 I have, it's a great expansion!
Thanks Psychie :3
I think something that kind of hampers a players need to get better is a lack of encounter variety.
I had recently finished an ascension 20 run with ironclad and then finished the rest of the achievements.
Higher ascensions are brutal but it's not by adding tougher visually distinct stronger enemies but by hampering helpful game mechanics and buffing the already existing enemies.
What's more frustrating then losing to a new stronger area with harder enemies is losing to the Gremlin knob but he can now kill me in like 4 turns.
It makes the player feel weaker rather than the encounters harder and in some cases with ascension that is true.
there are actually quite a few cases where lower ascension Gremlin Nob does more damage to you than higher ascension Nob
As he loses all randomness at a20, you can plan around that, knowing you only take the 8 damage of turn 2
@@musicexams5258 For sure but being the early game there's no guarantee you have good enough cards to beat him so he can be a consistent loss if you run out of luck.
It's also worth noting that although some challenges might seem insurmountable, you might actually be better at the game than you think. I recently decided to grind out unlocking godhead in isaac, before buying the repentance dlc. Anyone who knows isaac will know that the lost is not exactly an easy character, even with holy mantle. And so, upon challenging myself with this, I thought it'd take me months to do. And then I managed every hard completion mark within 3 days. Now some of that was knowing which runs to reset early because they started bad, but it was more generally, a massive confidence boost for me, because i'd always thought getting godhead legit would be impossible for me, ever since rebirth came out. And yet, years of experience came through for me. And none of that experience came from bashing my head against the wall trying to win, it just came from playing a game I love on and off for many many years.
Fun fact, Rythm games are exactly like this! I'm a 4k rythm game player, so I play Quaver, Osu!Mania, Friday Night Funkin' and more. What I usually do is hyper fixate on a game and then move to the other and try a certain song I couldn't do. Most of the time, that's how I track my progress.
Great video! I just wish he had given us a list of all the games shown here. Some looked very interesting! As someone who has only played Hades and Dead Cells, and has fallen in love with Roguelites, I'm definitely in the market for some more banger titles!
I guess I could look up a "best roguelites available" YT vid. So it's all good! 😊
This should be in order of appearance, not counting the non-roguelike games showed like Dark Souls 3 :
- FTL : Faster than Light : Spatial resource management RPG
- Hades : Narrative hack'n slash
- The Binding of Isaac : classic Zelda with gore and poop
- Enter the Gungeon : Bullet hell hack'n slash filled with gun puns
- Slay the Spire : Deckbuilding RPG card game
- Noitamina : Platformer with a heavy physics engine
- Nuclear Throne : Retro hack'n slash
- Dead Cells : Castlevania-like platformer
- One Step from Eden : Tactical deckbuilding with anime girls
- Risk of Rain 2 : 3D Action-RPG
- Skul: The Hero Slayer : Classic platformer
- Inscryption : Meta horror deckbuilding card game with escape room elements
Hopefully I didn't miss any.
@@Tamos40000 HOLY SH*T! Thanks sooooo much for this!
I just found the roguelike/lite genre and have fallen in love with it!
I'm 33, so a lot of what's out there is a lotta 'been there,done that'. And I'm getting very bored with a lot of games.
So finding games like Hades and Dead Cells has been one of the best things in gaming that's happened to me for years!
I think I have like, 10 roguelike games on my steam wiahlist!
I have Risk of Rain 2, Hades, Dead Cells, Gungeon, Isaac, and Just King.
I've only been diving into Hades and Dead Cells for now. I don't want to play them all and overwhelm myself.
But MAN! I am so glad to have found this genre!
Thank u sooooo much for this list!
Assist mode resurrected my desire to play Dead Cells. I want to like the game so badly but I didnt.
Discovered slay the spire almost a month ago and introduced a buddy who has since surpassed my skill level. He's beaten it as all 4 characters and moved on to ascension. I've beaten silent and defect but can def relate to the feeling of wanting to win so bad as ironclad! Losing definitely can be disheartening and losing to bosses you previously beat even more so. Just need to focus on having fun and enjoy the game. Ty for the video some good thoughts and sure makes me feel better for losing
For the life of me I cannot play as defect, I can’t even make it past the first floor boss sometimes
a note on the sweaty get good part. A good nights sleep can really improve your next attempts at a boss/level that is kicking your ass. eating well can too.
Misleading title, "Why you THINK you aren't improving" would be the correct one.
Everyone: This is a very ispirational video
Me: FuckFace????
This video helped with my jealousy significantly. As i tend to be envious of people better than me at a Roguelike. But there will always be someone better than me and i cant deny that. This helps me feel a lot better at dying in Dead Cells, etc. Because as long as i am getting further in some miracle of a run, is enough motivation and indication of improvement. I reached first boss in DC at 5BC and that was a indication of some form of improvement. Even if i died shortly due to a very bad build i had for the particular boss.
I have put so much effort into beating enter the gungeon. That i knew that i would win any game with any dificulty no matter what items to got. I have not been able to beat it in hardcore with all room modifiers though, and i doubt i will ever be as good, since i do not have the patience to learn how to counter every room. But some people have such talent for the game, it is awesome to see.
nuclear throne definitely, DEFINITELY has a correct build.
6:23 was that the Stardew Valley volcano theme? I was earnestly listening and nodding along with the video and when the theme song came up and I got a bit of SV volcano 1st run ptsd lol
This is part of the reason why I've taken a break from Hades. I have beaten it, but I do want to 100% it. I love the game, but it can be frustrating to lose, or not get lucky enough to get a dialogue I would need to even 100% the game.
I quit Curse of the Dead Gods for like 1-3 months now because I put so much time into one level and it’s just so damn hard. You beat the game and the final boss just to start the same thing again but you take more damage and something else that makes it infinitely harder and it’s hard to go back knowing that I’ll have to play it so much again just to try to beat that one level which probably isn’t the final level
The best visible progress of getting better I got at Spelunky, both the first and second game. Some things seemed impossible for me at first, like finishing the game in one run, and later I could do it quite often.
Another thing is in a lot of games, i never felt like my time was wasted. I usually learned something in a run. But more importantly, like in dead cells or binding of isaac, you unlock new characters, upgrade existing mechanics, or unlock new ones or items, or push a story if there is one. There’s still something gained from a run, you just didnt get to the end, if there is one, on that run
I used to be a big fan of rogue likes in the dungeons of dredmor days.
These days the only rogue like that really pushed me was hades.
And ive realized why - both in hades and in dredmor - You choose your build *before* you start your run.
In dredmor you make your own class by mixing a bunch of skills together. I remember always taking the heavy armor skill because I just like being tanky.
In hades you choose your weapon and aspect. There still is rng in the God upgrades, but the fact that there is a degree of consistency all around is what makes it so great.
As much as I love RNG, for a good rogue like to be great there needs to be *some* degree of consistency.
Games with a massive pool of rng elements sound fun on paper, but in reality the pool has diminishing returns. The bigger the item pool, the more content your player has to remember and the more watered down it will be.
Rng is fun when it is predictable, when I see an upgrade and go "Oh thats that one!" When ive dropped 30+ hours into the game and Im still in the "Oh what does this do" stage in the game, you know your item/upgrade pool is just way too large.
Hades was the only roguelike that ive beaten fo the very end. Because of how "grounded" it is. Everything flowed together into one smooth experience.
Dredmor is a game ive dropped 200+ hours in that ive never beaten. Ive only ever reached the final boss a handful of times and everytime he kicked my ass. After dropping 200+ hours and not even beating the game - imo something is wrong with the game, not me.
The beauty of hades and why its SUCH a good game that stands on top of so many others is that nothing is useless. The game is beatable with every weapon it offers. Ive beaten a run of hades(at least once) with every single weapon aspect in the game. And im a casual player. It wasnt a crazy hardcore challenge. Every Weapon was designed to be a winning choice.
Roguelikes really need to take a page from hades. Trim the fat. Stop giving us items/upgrades/Whateveryouwannacallit that arent viable or that become unviable eventually
To me it definitely helps if there is some amount of progression outside runs. Due to the nature of roguelikes, this should probably come in the form of difficulty settings, so as not to ruin what is (to me at least) the core of the roguelike experience.
Difficulty settings aren't progression, though, really.
But I do agree difficulty settings are nice. Actual roguelikes implement these in a number of ways, sometimes directly (like with ADOM), sometimes indirectly (like with DC:SS).
I rarely actually see them in roguelites, funnily enough. I suppose it just doesn't jive with the nature of the games, though. You can take it as far or as close as you want, essentially. Dead Cells probably did the 'difficulty' thing best, for the longest time with Boss Cells. Although they recently added more accessibility options, which is nice.
@@FlamingNinjaBoi I meant more like settings/options that you unlock as you play the game.
I really enjoyed this video!
Thank you also for being such an excellent resource for Dead Cells players. You've really helped me understand what I got into better, and because of that I've been able to make progress and continue having fun with the challenge in the endless beat down. I'm always glad to see whatever you post, you're great at these explainers.
you got it spot on. I got to 5BC in dead cells and the difficulty became so overwhelming I kinda stopped playing the game cause I stopped believing in myself.
I need to come back and focus on the things that I find fun about the game aka new weapons and gear.
War spear let me consistently beat 5BC. Giant killer for most bosses. Then I started beating it with different weapons and builds
@@surestrange it's not really weapon combinations it's just the stress. if I get hit and I'm not flawless so I do I take so much damage and get stressed and do more mistakes. Malaise doesn't help either since the it stresses me to go fast which makes me do stupid plays
I've debated with friends several times on skill based vs luck based gaming and what is fun, and I completely agree that an entirely skill based game is dramatically less fun (in many contexts). Any PvP game with no randomness at all is going to be abandoned by huge swathes of people once the best few start dominating uncontested. The exception to wanting luck in the game is a pure puzzle game, where randomness in the puzzle may throw off the game pace. My example is always Portal. It wouldn't be fun without the predictability of consistency, but it is also non-competitive.
I will never "finish" Dead Cells. Game is hard as balls and my concentration can't keep up with the speed and intensity of it. I got my 3BC and I'm really content with what the game gave me.
I still love to hop in, get 3 biomes in, get crushed by new enemies and then just leave the game for another day or month.
I have gotten my money's worth out of it a hundredfold.
I think one of the main reasons people don't get good at roguelikes is most roguelike content creators that popularize many roguelikes play them ultra casually. People then look to them for game advise, but are learning techniques from someone already bad at the game. One somewhat recent one that comes to mind is Super Auto Pets. A few content creators that popularized the game were exceedingly bad at it. This led to a lot of people using horrible strategies that allowed people who played the game correctly to farm off it excessively. Something like a level 3 win with all pets including sloth took me 130 hours. There are some content creators near 1,000 hours that to this day still haven't done it despite trying.
While not a roguelike, I noticed this with pokemon recently. Some of the best competitive pokemon info are from channels with less than a few thousand subscribers, despite ones with 100k's of subs and views being the ones that most people see. A lot of people just gravitate to whatever info is most easily accessible rather than looking deeper.
first view too! keep up the good work mate love ur videos
Here's the saddest part for me: I'm quite ok with the idea that there are songs I'll never play at the piano, titles I'll never earn as a chess player, prizes I'll never win for best writer, or that I'll probably never master 100% anything.
But I don't want that from games. I want to get that awesome feeling of completing a game I enjoyed, perhaps more than once.
Games would probably not be fun if that were true, but I really wish I could fully complete the games I most enjoy without having to pour dozens or hundreds of hours into it.
this makes me feel better
I try to establish milestones, like on Spelunky: instead of aiming to defeat Olmec, I try to consistently get to the Jungle, and then to the Ice Caves, and so on. I'm still pretty bad on roguelikes, but this mindset helps to get better and farther.
cool. what are the games presented in your video? i recognized most but 1-2 seem new to me...
Hey, I only been playing dead cells like 2 week on 2bc. Never played much rogue like but played bloodborne a ton and it's refreshing getting into dead cells
Edit: I raged pretty hard on the servants as I only discovered it once I hit 2bc
I WAS NEVER good at a roguelike or roguelite, but I was at Warzone. I trained my entire body to perfect all my capabilities and most importantly, stay more consistent.
In turn I was burned out faster and that is one of the biggest reasons why I was longer motivated to play it.
6:25 I really like that phrase. I've been playing Pokemon Unite almost daily since it came out just over a year ago. The game has limited time rewards for reaching certain ranks, and recently new characters are becoming more expensive than they have been. Because of that, my play time has been more focused on grinding for the coins and ranks than actually enjoying the gameplay. I've been forgetting to have fun. The next character to release is Mew, and it looks very fun to play. As someone who likes playing a wide variety of roles, I realize I've been sticking to a small set of characters recently, so I think I would have more fun if I went and played some that I haven't in a while instead of the ones that are high tier. It's been too long since I gave Ninetales, Blastoise, or Wigglytuff a spin
Anyway, I like the "fun over winning" mindset. Might be why I typically play so many roguelikes and metroidvanias. They're lots of fun and typically take a long time to beat, so winning isn't my main focus when playing them. It's also probably why I get bored of most online competitive games (especially ones with a ranked mode) so quickly, since they encourage focusing so hard on winning rather than fun and experimentation. Heck, I love Splatoon and am excited for 3 but haven't played 2 in a long time because things became too samey once I got my main weapon and gear setup all sorted out.
Moral of the story: losing ranks scares me and I'm a big jack of all trades in pretty much any game I play. Roguelikes allow me to experiment with loads of builds and the only punishment for losing is playing the game more
How to improve at rougelikes:
1. Don't get hit
2. Git gud
3. Find skill solution
4. Actually learn how to dodge lol
Ur the reason I play dead cells, still stuck on 5bc tho, great video
Nice video! If you haven’t tried spelunky, I highly recommend it!
4:46 this is an exact reason I would use to make the case that roguelikes are not good games. You may as well just get some dice and sit there rolling them. Worse still are certain games, like inscryption (which I would consider an excellent game that would be way better if it weren't a roguelike) which don't allow you to 'fold' when you get a metaphorical bad hand without being punished.
Another reason is that they are low content games that drip feed you progress. I'm sorry but I don't wanna be forced to grind 300 hours of the same 4 levels just too see a bit of additional dialogue. Sure the gameplay has *slight* incrimental difficulty options but outside some major ones (like extreme measures in hades) they offer very unsubstantial differences from run to run. I would rather the game be 30 hours long and challenging than 400 hours long and random.
It's also not most peoples idea of 'fun' to do shit like 'I wonder if I can beat this game with only the basic attack, no lives, my hands tied behind my back and some kid behind me kicking me in the balls and puking on my neck' while I play the 20 minutes of game i've been playing for hundreds of hours already. Sounds Sweet.
I get that they're easy for indie studios to make but, as I said before, I'd rather play a short and satisfying game from an indie studio any day.
Shoutout to Azure Dreams on the PS1. A hidden gem from Konami before Roguelikes gained the massive popularity they have now. It's a shame I never hear anyone talking about it, though.
This thumbnail is me trying to unlock the third statue in Hades.
I finally ascended in Slay the Spire. It took me 725 hours on Ironclad (along with getting to level 11 with the Silent for some of that time). I was emotionally devastated when I learned that most players ascend after only 125 or so hours. I went into some severe depression. Sure, I ascended, which most players don't accomplish, but after learning that I took over 5 times longer than the average player, I still feel like I never got good at the game. I consulted the Slay the Spire subreddit, and the other players had no consensus on what to think. Some people told me that the randomness must have been punishing me, and others just called me stupid. When I had 600 hours in the game, a friend of mine started playing and we were comparing progress. He beat me to ascending two days before I did. I still feel horribly depressed over this.
Dude... That rough. Crazy what a game can do to you..
dude, you got depressed by a pointless and life-useless roguelike trash game? pls, go do something else for your life, this kind of game only sucks up your time on this earth, nothing more.
@@thiagomacedolinhares5512 Thank you for the encouragement and support through my difficult mental health problems!
I'm just kidding. You are terrible.
@@jcchurch said the guy who has 725 minus hours of life for... NOTHING. Imagine this time spent on therapy or another relevant activity. Good Luck mate, you gonna need it
@@thiagomacedolinhares5512 Still terrible at providing any encouragement what-so-ever.
God what I wouldn't give for the video to just end after the first line of "Skill Issue".
There's a really simple formula to get good at something: enjoyment + practice. For years I couldn't understand what made me unable to have consistent progress in them. I found that that I simply don't enjoy Roguelikes and I wish I found that out sooner. I've played plenty of them and the most well known. I've only managed to complete the base games for Dead Cells (3BC) which is the ONLY roguelike I legit enjoy playing and Hades which despite all the praise it gets I don't enjoy because of the huge RNG.
The thing is, some of these games have great gameplay but they don't have to be Roguelikes. FTL can perfectly work as a singleplayer space opera. I could give other examples as well.
Funny thing is, I've been recently playing Doom 2016 with Ultra Nightmare and it pretty much plays like a Roguelike. You die you go back to the beginning. What makes it work for me is because UN is an optional self imposed challenge that I just want to complete. I love everything about the game and even the worst bs barely makes me frustrated. I could play for hours without getting angry a single time. But what seperates it, is that it has very little RNG. The RNG that exists can be easily remedied depending on how you play. I see improvement day after day
TL;DR Roguelikes have too much RNG and are way too much punishing for the enjoyment they bring me and every death feels like a huge waste of time.
I've never really seen this as an issue in rogelikes with little to no "progression" systems.
Like, Spelunky, you can *absolutely* get good at Spelunky. Will you still get handed garbage situations sometimes? Sure, but that's part of the fun, that's why I'll always come back to it sometimes.
Spelunky 2 is absolutely pounding me into the ground. I've put over 400 hours into the game and I've beaten it *once*. I know everything there is to know about special techniques, skips, enemy interactions, but I'm just not patient enough to survive past the first world, then I get frustrated and lose what little patience I had. I can't get good at roguelikes because I'm just not wired for em man
I dropped both Dead Cells and Isaac, now i started wanting to return to them
Rogue likes improve your reaction to uncertainty and spontaneous stressful circumstances. Playing a more static game with little to no rng will improve specific skills, but also can cause interference with learning other skills/games.
My favorite game as a kid was Super Metroid and that was all I played for years. I got pretty good for a kid, and my skill level kept increasing, albeit in a diminishing manner like you said. Problem was when I attempted to get into any other game I felt severely handicapped since I let myself achieve too much mastery of a single game, and without much other experience to draw from, it caused me quite a bit of frustration.
I think you might be plateauing when you describe hitting a wall. In weight training (and many other things) plateaus are common and can be transcendental. They can generate rapid growth but only by way of proportionate determination and focus. Once broken, they serve as a foundation rather than a ceiling.
Imo 🤔 rogue like skill and static skill in combination is the best way to improve along all avenues of not only gaming but also life. Dating is a fine example of skill building of the uncertain variety while marriage would be more like Super Metroid. Without both, the neglected type tends to suffer. Not that I’m advocating infidelity haha. It’s just an analogy.
0:00 Skill isssue 🤓
2:20 Are you sure about that 🧐
Also lets not forget nowdays there are way, way, way to many rougelikes so they are all fighing for your time and to ad to that you get burned out on so many of them
Geeze, talk about conditioned. I saw curved horn drop on the floor at 2:31 and genuinely felt slight twinge of excitement.
I want to keep grinding hades, but my hands literally hurt. My left hand from white knuckling the controller, and my right thumb from the dash button. I literally need to take a few days off for my hands to heal
5:14 still looking for a single clip from a more-roguelike. 🤣 Since, outside of the burnout bit, these tips don't seem to transfer over too well.
--My tips for anybody who finds themselves suddenly doing poorly in a roguelike is just to stop in place, no more rushing, and carefully consider each of the next dozen or so steps--puts my head right back into the game. Doing so I'll often notice something I should know but glazed over. Such as throwing an unidentified potion, actually using my consumables, or running away from a losing fight long before critical health. Just because you're the middle of a battle doesn't mean you don't have time to read a tome or two, and maybe pick up teleport.
Finally, 'unlearn' the room-clearing mentality, especially in games with scarce food (or some other pushing mechanism).
This is why I find Necrodancer specially difficult. You can't back down for too long because songs impose a time limit, and with some characters you can't even stop moving for a second because missing the beat will kill you. Taking so many decisions in such a small period of time feels amazing when things go well but hurts the rest of the time
@ 2:52 for me, personally, I don't consider memorization to be gaining skill. Hamsters can be taught to memorize. If I wanted to get good at memorizing something, I'd just memorize the digits of pi. What roguelikes/lites punish you for is the inability to adapt to constant new information, and prepare for possible outcomes. Just my two cents, as a masochistic freak who actually likes roguelites.
It's genuinely impossible to notice what went wrong when playing these games. How am I supposed to enjoy a game when I can't even figure out how to do this?
Nuclear throne is the game I don’t know if I’ll ever beat but damn do I try
Enter the Gungon, Rouge Legacy, Dead Cells, and a Robot named fight. No rougelikes are easy when you know what to do.
I just about doubled my time in Gungeon trying to do the Paradox run. Getting those last achievements is where I get frustrated in rogue-likes. Except FTL, where even the first achievements proved too difficult.
Project Zomboid (or Cataclysm:DDA, or also Rimworld or Dwarf Fortress) is a very different type of Rogue like, one that is still entertaining, but which gives no power progression from playing, only experience/knowledge. FTL is pretty much like this too, although it's still a very different kind of game, and has more randomness to it.
This exactly with Noita. I got very burned out with the game when I could never win, but now I've gotten several potential god runs just because I accept death is inevitable, and simply enjoying the game is more than fun enough. And since I have a much lower investment in each run, I tend to get a lot more good runs just because I play more.
noita took me 235 runs, first i never made it to the art temple, then on run 235 i blazed past it all including the final boss.
love the game but i doubt i'm gonna do all the extra extra stuff
When you die, don't beat yourself up and think "I shouldn't have died there. I'm so bad." or "That's so BS, this game is unfair."
This mindset doesn't actually change anything.
Instead, ask yourself "What do I need to do to avoid that in the future?"
I'm pretty sure its safe to say that there is a correct/meta build in ror2 bc of the artifact of command
And in most games he showed. But i think what he was getting at is, since you aren't against other players that use meta builds, you are not forced to use them
I just hate having to chug colorful potions or use weird scrolls just to see what they do.
And having to wait for some kind of Identification Scroll to appear it not fun to me.
I do like randomized encounters and mixed up challenges, or having to adapt my gameplay style to the equipment I find. I guess I prefer roguelites on average.
A progression system is also welcomed, since it gives me one more goal other than just improving.
(I'm not asking the entire roguelikes genre to change, just admitting I don't like certain design choises.)
5:46 psychie, you can drink fruit juice out of combat so that it doesn’t take up a potion slot
You should watch Jorb's analysis on Fruit Juice, and when to drink it. The video is fantastic, and shows just how deep Slay the Spire really is. Even something as seemingly simple as a potion which increases max health and can be drank at any time, is interesting enough in context of this game to have a deep discussion on.
@@luka188 what’s the video called? I’d love to watch it.
@@justinthyme5263 When should you drink Fruit Juice? | SpireChats #74 | Slay the Spire
That's the name of the video
I'm really bad at roguelikes, I've rarely beat the ones I've poured tons of hours into. But for me that's not a problem, I still love them because the novelty. I've poured way more hours into roguelikes games than any other genre because I love the experience of something new - and even if I die, I spawn in a new world with a fresh start and the novelty remains. Often times, starting over is like playing a new game, there's new events I havent seen before, new weapons, new mechanics, even new enemies. That's what brings me joy and why I play them. If I were the type of person that "had to beat every game" or "100%" a game, I'd probably not like roguelikes at all, because I rarely master them, but again, that's OK for me. I play for the experience and the novelty.
Also, I love a clean slate. Starting over in an roguelike gives me that fresh feeling of a pristine inventory, the "Clean slate" which I love. I dont like being bogged down with a bunch of "instant-win" items or skills either, which trivialize most of the "end game" in most games out there.