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Back in the 1960s, I worked for Southern Engine & Pump Company, an oil field service company. We sold and serviced Minneapolis Moline stationary engines and starter engines. They were all designed like those in your video. We did not have the proper machines to do cylinder work on them. There was only one shop (United Machine) that had the special machines from Minneapolis Moline to work on those engines. In the oil patch, most of the stationary engines ran on "field gas" which was just unadulterated natural gas directly out of the oil well. In those days, most of the gas was "flared off" (burned in 50 ft tall torches, so the fuel to run them was essentially free. The oil companies resisted switching to electric motors to run the pump-jacks because they had to pay for the power.
@research903 I currently work for a oil service company doing night watch on oil well sites. We capture the gas off of the power vessel oil separators and a secondary large separator that's plumbed into all the separators to pull any remaining water and gas. Almost nothing is vented now not even the condensate off the field gas. The only thing that runs off the field gas is the burners that heat the separators and the pilots for the flares. You probably already know this just felt like sharing a piece of modern oil field practices.
I have been a Toolmaker for 40+ years and still make mistakes. Yes, it can be very humbling, and it takes the "wind out of your sails". My college professor had a great saying, "You are only as good as your ability to fix/recover from your mistakes".
i love your videos. i am a retired mechanic and machinist. Del Monte farms and cannery had the largest fleet of M&M tractors and machinery in the world, from the 30s until M&M went out of business. they had their own factory direct parts dept and factory trained service shop. this was in central and northern Illinois. when a new design tractor model came out they were tested for a few years in the field and many went to del monte to do that.
Grandad was a dealer from 39 to 68 in Yale Mich Worn cyl/head units were sent back to MM for reconditioning .Spares were kept so that turn around time was reduced .MM felt that a bored block could be held to rounder standards than a sleeve .The R and Z blocks had a larg e side cover to facilitate rod bearing replacement in frame .Early MM 28/44s had roller cam followers and 4 valves per cyl MM was not afraid of cutting edge engineering
Certainly an oddball design, but my vote for the weirdest engine ever is the 2 stroke opposed piston Napier Deltic, with 3 crankshafts housed in a triangular engine block. Totally outrageous! Thanks for your excellent content.
Those are strange.... So are the smaller passenger vehicle "Commer Knocker" TS3 engines. There are quite a few strange engine designs out there to run across.
I have to say, I never expected to see this kind of content when I first started watching your channel, but now it has become my favorite stuff you guys do. I love the use of unconventional means and ingenuity to figure out how to do what is necessary to produce the final result and an actual running engine. GOOD STUFF!
I have a ZB and a UB Special. The ZB has a 206 cu in displacement and the UB has 283 cu in. These were great lugging engines. In 1950 my Dad worked for MM in the foundry on Como Ave. The cylinder blocks were often called "jug blocks". MM used a single jug block (2 cylinder) for the engine of the pull behind combine, and 2 jug blocks (4 cylinders) in their Z , U, and G tractors. Their big tractors had 3 jug blocks (6 cylinder). Their big engine had 800 cu in and was used in oil fields, cotton gins, saw mills, irrigation pumps plus even powering big HVAC units for the new large shopping malls of the 1950s and 60s. They were well respected. But then White Motor Co. pulled some stock deal and owned MM in 1963. This led to a new federal law about worker pensions, as White became the owner of the MM employee pension fund and used the $$ to fund part of their Hostile Takeover. Some former employees I have talked to said that under White Motor the high tolerance machines used in the engine production area were used until total failure. The quality of the engines produced in the later 60's suffered frequent tolerance problems requiring overhauls in specialty machine shops after very short lives. White bled MM (& Oliver, & Cockshut -Canadian) to death.
I have a Moline UB sitting in the toolshed. Growing up, this was our largest tractor, next to a John Deere 720D. Dad bought a 1466 Farmall in the late 70s and we REALLY went big. I've always liked the Moline. It had gobbs of torque.
There was an old man that had a little garage with a tobacco wagon in it that had hit and miss engines bolted to it that he took to shows and festivals. I remember riding my bike by and stopping and watching them run when he would get out and fire them up to get them ready for a show. The old man sadly passed away recently.
I’m speculating that your .0005” taper at the top of the cylinder is better than original. I have no doubt that this old engine is going to run good and long considering the precision you are putting into it. Fascinating and unique piece of equipment.
Used to work on phone systems that had these ludicrously small rating fuses for each phone. Boss said that if we weren't blowing a couple of those fuses at each job, we were working too slow.
My Great Grandfather worked for Moline Plow in the early 1900s when it was still in Moline IL. He wound up doing international sales, first being posted to Argentina and later to So. Africa. From what I understand the Moline had a superior horse drawn plow that was in high demand. When they started building tractors they were a small walk behind tractor with only the front wheels driven. The implement provided the rear support. The early ones were two cylinder and the later ones were four cylinder. They struggled during the Great Depression and sold off the tractor company and later the entire company, with Moline Plow ceasing to exist in Moline IL. Moline Minneapolis tractors were made by a new company that was formed by merging several companies. It would be interesting to know if the original Moline Plow engine survived the transition to the new company. That would explain why your engines were built with two twin block/head cylinder castings.
My grandpa had a couple MM pull-type combines with these engines as the power units for the thresher. When I was in grade school (1970s) I would grab a handful of wrenches and take off covers and anything else I could get off, just to see what was inside. I was wanting to figure out how I could get them unstuck so I could get them to run. Never happened. Much later (early 2000s) I was helping an older farmer who had a model Z. I was just messing around hand cranking the engine, and it started right up. I couldn't believe it. Thanks for showing these engines!
50:20 WOW! That ol' MM tractor started up so easily with the hand crank start! Its so cool seeing and talking to the farmers like that that have been on and around those very tractors all their lives. We need more farmers like this! I could spend days alongside guys like that just listening to their tales & picking up their tips & tricks! Good job guys! 👍🏻👌🏻🛠️🔩🔧🚜🦺🚧⚠️🏗️
I am always amazed at the skill of the core makers on these integral head blocks. The ones I have had dealings with are the blocks for the Speed Six Vintage Bentley, where due to damage to the head surfaces, we had to weld them up and re-machine back to spec, before reinserting the Nimonic valve seats to take the heat of a competition engine.
That fuel pump diaphragm for your generator is available from Jim Carter's Truck Parts in MO. They specialize in 1930's/1940's GM stuff. It looks identical to the fuel pump on my 1935 Chev. and you were saying it was list as an AC part number.
A lot of extra work for the machine shop just to avoid head gaskets! The legendary Offenhauser and Miller racing engines also used integral cylinder head but they needed to with very high compression and supercharging.
YES! I think they should find an old Offy builder to find out what they did about the cylinder taper. I bet they had some tricks! The only foundry Miller/Offenhouser used was a small one in Oakland, CA and a good block was something that came very dear. Reportedly several other foundry tried, with Offy factory encouragement and the loan of the patterns to cast offy blocks but none succeeded. The end of the Offenhouser was hastened by the scarcity of good blocks and other spare parts in the mid 1970's. Another interesting thing about the MM engine is that the valve design is much like the "Walking Beam" design that was used on the early Dusenberg engines. It was rumored that Dusenberg had a hand in the Cord V8 where the valves came into the chamber at about 45 degrees as apposed to the 90 degree angle in the walking beam (and Moline tractor) engine.
You guys do top notch work! I enjoy watching you and learning from you guys. I wish you were closer to me. Automotive machine shops are far and few between around where I live and it’s become a lost art. As a professional diesel mechanic and Hot Rodder, a machine shop is something I have to develop a relationship and trust with. I love and appreciate your honesty and integrity. Your clean shop also speaks volumes to me.
I truly love your videos… I’m hardly more than a shade tree mechanic but everything I know came from my Pop and my Uncle. Nicolaus… you are blessed to have a source of knowledge like your father to glean from. I love the fact that you are carrying on the family business. No doubt there is anything but success in y’all’s future. Keep on keeping on with the “not so normal” content… but I’d love to see an old school big block high horsepower build with y’all’s touch on it!
In 1975 I was a fresh out of school machinist working for White Superior in Springfield Ohio. I was running a 6 foot horizontal boring mill. Cutting the bore on a 26.5 inch compressor cylinder body. I had to cut a relief in the bottom of the blind cylinder. I didn’t extend the tool far enough to clear the rack gear on the tool ram. As I brought it over I heard it start cutting and reached over to look in. I saw a grove every place the rack gear touched. I was scared I just lost my job. I just scrapped a 30 k in 1975 dollars part. That was a good house back then. The Forman calmly said, what did you learn? Just don’t let it happen again and let’s move on. Whew. They salvaged it by cutting it oversized and hard chrome plating the bore and grinding it to size. So someone got a good cylinder. I got a hell of a lesson.
Thanks for the update on what happened. I am glad they paid you for repairs. After hitting an animal that size, I understand the shock of damage that happens in that instance. Super glad you and the family are good.
I appreciate that you two accept the challenges of working with these older engines. Shops like yours are few and far between these days. Thanks for your content!
I have T-bolts which fit down into the slots when turned ninety degrees. I made them myself after the second time I forgot them and had to tear down and rebuild a complex setup. BIG timesavers!
The other oddity of this engine that you did not mention is the rocker arms. The rockers are about 9" long end extend vertically directly from the valve to the camshaft. They pivot on dowels that are bolted down along with the cylinders to the crankcase. You can see them at 0:57 .
Regarding your debate about main bearings. Early Z's had 2 main bearings, but they had a center oiling sleeve that supplied oil to # 2&3 rod bearings. Looked just like a main bearing journal, but offered no support. Only connected with a collar and copper oil line . Front main bearing was a roller ball bearing, rear bearing was a shell bearing with thrust flanges.
I must say the guide to fit new guides when you don't own the proper tooling to bore out the old guides to the specific dimensions to fit the new guide in the old guide and instead use a sacrificial guide to get to where the new guide will fit, was a great guide 👍
There were some very strange head designs back in ancient times. A friend of mine is a pattern maker / foundry manager. A few days ago he showed me a replacement head he cast for a 1930s Bentley Speed 6. It has overhead valves but they are in a separate chamber (with the spark plug) and communicate with the piston via a large slot. Also the inlet and exhaust valves are at very different heights. I can't see the logic of it.
Did valves used in early engines were adapted from steam engine poppet valves. They moved on to overhead inlet with side exhaust (inlet over exhaust). Advantage was a very large inlet valve. Eventually they just fitted both valves in the head but had to accept smaller valves. I personally think sleeve valves were the biggest dead end. Just too complicated. I also think sump lubricated two strokes were the biggest lost opportunity. Detroits tried but they never went to blower style air chargers which allow air supply to always exceed demand.
Honda used to use a plug in a separate chamber,with a richer mixture, combustion spreading to a weak mixture in the cylinder. Reverse to as stratified charge.,I think.
Hey guys, I really appreciate you taking the time and putting in the effort to make these videos. It’s got to be a giant pain in the butt sometimes when you’re trying to get a job done and you have a camera in your way, Trust me, all of us love a weird engine, I’ve been in the business for 40+ years. It’s nice to not do the same thing over and over again.
Enjoy watching you guys, extremely knowledgeable on both sides but I love watching the new school tech and old school ways collide for a outcome nothing short of amazing! I’ve been building my circle track engines myself for the last 7 years obviously outsourcing machine work.. I really enjoy doing it myself and seeing it work!!
I bought a MM I found in field in Colorado when I was a teenager. It had the cylinders cast in pairs but overhead valves in a detachable head. It kept me busy for awhile, but I did eventually get it running! I still have the Vise Grips I found in the clutch housing.
I enjoy the way you guys work together. Thanks again for your time to share your experience and knowledge with us. Will love to visit you guys sometime and see those tractors too . Blessings and good luck. Teach the boys when the time comes. It’s a losing art , all of it.
Thanks for another great video Jim and Nickolas. It was extremely interesting and informative and enjoyable to watch. This has been a wonderful journey once again on these old Minneapolis Moline tractor parts. These parts are so unusual in the way they were designed and made and that fact alone makes this so interesting. The farmer that has the moline collection and can talk about the parts pretty good on his own, was most interesting to talk to. His background was very good. His collection was one of the best I have seen of moline collections. You were able to glean a lot of information off of him. This video has been another super teaching tool. Appreciate the way you both tackle redoing these old parts. The old fashioned way of doing things is so valuable. Jim your ability and knowledge on the old machine shop way is invaluable in today’s world. I have looked at this video several times and sincerely appreciate your insight to bring these old parts back to life. Nickolas is good in his new way of working with technology but having you to show him the old ways is greatly valuable to him. I trust he appreciates that resource in you. Well it looks like you both have done a fantastic job on getting these old parts ready to go. I have a ton of respect for both of you and your machine shop business!!!!!!!! Have so enjoyed your video. Brings back a lot of memories of hanging out as a kid around our small town machine shop. You folks are amazing at what you do!!!!!!!! Thanks so much for showing all of us how to bring parts back to life again. Looking forward to the next video. You mentioned having more on this subject and maybe more on the old generator. My very best regards to both of you always!!!!!!!’ The retired Air Force veteran. 😊😊👍✅🙏🇺🇸
Very nice work guys. Very interesting engine. Jim I applaud your humbleness. I have certainly made my mistakes. We learn by doing. Sometimes it's a hard lesson. I am always reminded, we're not perfect but we are human. Much respect.👍 Thanks for sharing. Have a great day.
I have a ZB sitting in a clump of brush on a turn row. It's sitting exactly where they pulled it to after it threw a rod through the side of the block 50 years ago. MM had some strange engines, I've been into a couple over the years. MM were good tractors but you couldn't run them under load at low rpms. My uncle was a MM dealer until 68 or 69.
I had a z mini mole when I was younger. I think it was a newer model. I had no idea that it was such a weird engine. I never did. They have to go into it. I pulled logs out of the woods with it.
Very cool video fellas! Never seen this type of head arrangement before. While you were machining the valve seats I could almost smell the cutting oil, & my ears kinda confirmed the head was being machined at just the right rate! - Not that I'm a machinist at all! - although I have used a lathe before. Love them diamond hones; what a brilliant invention! This was great to watch, & it was pleasing to see the actual model tractors these engine parts were used in. Can I put in a request to see the engine these heads will bolt to running in the tractor? That would really put the icing on the cake!
I worked at an engine machine shop in California in the early 80s tearing down engines and cleaning up for rebuilding. I was told that the GMC V-6 from the 60s were tapered bore.010" smaller at the top of the stroke to help the rings live longer. That's gradually bigger at the bottom of the bore to the top.
New drinking game. Every time Nicholas says "Guide", you have to drink. Great video. Watching you guys bring life back to these old engines amazes me every time.
Nice video, good production, excellent editing! A bit overwhelming how many tools and machines you have in your workshop. I used a sun hone that had a dwell function on it for tapered areas, just dwell and it would remain stationary for a few seconds. Your dad was spot on when he spoke of the top ring end gap. When you hit the machine when it was running validates what I used to teach the young guys, always shut machinery off when changing your operating position. The sound of those tractors starting and running is sweet music to my ears.
I was checking the crank bearings on a model ZAE back in the late 90's. I have been in several Moline engines over the years. The ZA was a continuing of the ZT models and along with the model R they morphed into the 335, 445 series. Anyways the R and older Z have no center main and have a roller bearing in the front journal. The older Z technically has a bearing surface in the center BUT it was for feeding oil to the crank vis a vis a bronze bushing collar. The ZA actually has a center main. Anyhooo they had no listing for a main set specifically for a ZA (and probably ZT too) but one could still get the unique rear main and front roller bearing separate. One could also still get a kit for 335/445 models yet too. By then they weren't using roller bearings in the front anymore. I checked the specs out on these models and surmised that the 335/445 kit would work in this tractor albeit with an extra main bearing to buy. And indeed the required center main was the same in these newer sets. I don't know what it is like now with these parts.
I'm getting old too brother. I have to takr every third day easy, but not off. Theres always work to do on the ranch. God willing, Ill do my thing for another 10-20 years. Besides, every cleaning guy deserves sitting stool. Wait, that didn't come out right...,😆
Good job Gentleman. My Daddy's got a 1950's MM Z we used it to farm with in the 1980's it was easy on gas and rode and drove good. Also a good pulling tractor. Cheap to keep up, tough. All that's needed is Gas, oil, water, air, land, seed, fertilizer, blood, swet and THE GOOD LORD. Oh my Daddy had told me about this engine and now I can understand, what he's talking about. God Bless America.
We refurbished a Z ten or so years back. Mechanically it was in really good shape. Maybe some seals here or there, but I know we never tore the engine or transmission down. Had no idea the engines were so unique. Good running machine.
Please look up Allen Millyard. One man in a one car garage making V12 motor cycle engines, 5 cylinder two-stroke engines, bikes with aircraft engines all by hand and all on his own. Worth a look.
Good video, was nice to see a G707 in that fellow’s shed. Dad bought a brand new one in about 1966. Spent many a cold fall day on it in northern Alberta pulling a 16’ deep tillage cultivator. The hand clutch on those 707s were a “handful” for a young kid to operate.
I always thought that the engineers who designed that engine were crazy. I guess they weren’t that awful considering here we are 70 years later and they’re still some of them out there running. Bloopers reel? My whole life has been going from one blooper to the next
I would absolutely love to come out there and visit. Do you guys have any type of visiting hours? Or tours of the shop? Or any way to meet you guys? I absolutely love watching your shows and would love to meet you guys.
In 1984, I was attending Black Hawk College East in Kewanee, Illinois, working on my Associates degree in Applied Science to be an Ag Mechanic. The last semester, myself and 2 other students had a project to rebuild a ZA Minni Mo. The machine work was done in town. We got it together and running right at the end of the school year. Took it for a test drive, and overheated pulling a small hill. Long story short, the cylinder/head assembly both had a crack between the valves, blowing combustion into the cooling system under load. Luckily, the owner had extras, and we had have 3 more sets pressure tested that didn’t leak, although they were still cracked. The other 2 guys quit the project, and the instructor and I spend half of summer break to finally get it running and out the door. I don’t know what happened to it after that. Quite the learning experience.
I got a real education with this one. And that tractor collection is amazing. Fixing the cylinder boo boo might be tricky with the blind deck/hole surface.
The early Oakland V-8 (~1930) had horizontal valves like that - but the had detachable heads. there were a lot of early high performance automotive engines in the 1920s and '30s with non- detachable heads, probably the most well known in the US being the Miller / Offenhauser. Great video. That's a tough project. Very interesting to watch.
You guys do beautiful work, very informative. Working in metric, however, is much more simple, easy and even accurate depending on what is being measured. But, older American and British machines are always in imperial measurements, so you guys do what you have to do. Fun to watch!
The day we switched from Imperial to Metric in New Zealand was a happy one.. I did my apprenticeship in Metric in Europe, worked for 5 years in Imp. when I immigrated, and then back to Metric again. The older fitters/turners had some trouble switching over,but most liked it.
@@verteupTrue. Both systems are as accurate as you need them to be. The system you choose to use depends primarily on the one you’re most comfortable working with.
I owned one of these tractors, and, I loved it. Mostly used it on a grain auger, but, also for some other light chores. I was used to the hand clutch, because I had lots of the two cylinder John Deeres. These were tough and well made. I also used it to pull a pull type grain swather just for fun of seeing the two MM peices of equiptment at work. I think those tractors were made in the early fifties. It is about seventy years old.
I repaired rust pits scratches in cylinder walls with JB weld epoxy. Engines still running. Seriously. You can save antique castings . If no other choice or no money . Apply to dry clean rough surfaces level with razor blades. Then hone cylinder. I tried it and engine still running good for 4 years on construction machine.
I would have set that up by bolting a straight edge on the mating face located on top of an angle plate. Blind cylinders were common on early side valve engines. I was a Millwright so its an easy job to me to salvage the engine. I have worked on new jet engines and Nuclear Reactor Cores, much more difficult than these old engines. I made the tooling for Perkins Engine production in the eighties, and these old engines were often made on WW1 worn out machinery.
I worked for the MM dealer in Grand Junction CO myself year in High school 1953-54 and for two years of Junior College. the R and Z with hand clutch were popular for combination row crop and orchard work because of the low driver position. The U would output any other row crop tractorl. What I learned I translated into20 years as an AF CIVIL ENGINEER and 30 years as a consulting engineer projects in 15 states and 7 Foreign countries. In Ruwand in one of my last projects I found a 1941 U series running an irrigation pump 😊😊
Was watching M539 channel the other day when he was having his BMW block bored and them German block machining folk got an application that brings them low spots up, even from a microscopic prospective… ☮️
My father had a R, Z and U Minneapolis Tractors. The first one he purchased in 1938 was a two bearing Z, his only tractor for the duration of the WWII. The R and U were post war tractors.
Tapered cylinder bores were a thing in the early 1900 air cooled engine. The early Harley Davidson cylinders (JD models) were final honed with tapered stones. I scratched my head as to “how am I gonna do that.”. We spent $10k on a machine that bores perfectly straight! Hahahaha
Yea, ain't that a bitch.... I could produce tapered bores when they were SUPPOSED to be straight. BUT, tobproduce a proper tapered bore to the required specs.... 😬
I have to say that I thoroughly enjoy watching you guys do your thing. I might need to make a road trip out there to have my 1966 Ford 200 machine work done. Keep up the great videos!
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Back in the 1960s, I worked for Southern Engine & Pump Company, an oil field service company. We sold and serviced Minneapolis Moline stationary engines and starter engines. They were all designed like those in your video. We did not have the proper machines to do cylinder work on them. There was only one shop (United Machine) that had the special machines from Minneapolis Moline to work on those engines. In the oil patch, most of the stationary engines ran on "field gas" which was just unadulterated natural gas directly out of the oil well. In those days, most of the gas was "flared off" (burned in 50 ft tall torches, so the fuel to run them was essentially free. The oil companies resisted switching to electric motors to run the pump-jacks because they had to pay for the power.
😮P 0:53 0:53
Hell they still did this back in the 90s here around Texas
@research903 I currently work for a oil service company doing night watch on oil well sites. We capture the gas off of the power vessel oil separators and a secondary large separator that's plumbed into all the separators to pull any remaining water and gas. Almost nothing is vented now not even the condensate off the field gas. The only thing that runs off the field gas is the burners that heat the separators and the pilots for the flares. You probably already know this just felt like sharing a piece of modern oil field practices.
I have been a Toolmaker for 40+ years and still make mistakes. Yes, it can be very humbling, and it takes the "wind out of your sails". My college professor had a great saying, "You are only as good as your ability to fix/recover from your mistakes".
Well done gentlemen. Not hiding mistakes is a key sign of honest business ethics.
Stay awesome!
Nick is certainly not hiding his dad's mistake.
i love your videos. i am a retired mechanic and machinist. Del Monte farms and cannery had the largest fleet of M&M tractors and machinery in the world, from the 30s until M&M went out of business. they had their own factory direct parts dept and factory trained service shop. this was in central and northern Illinois. when a new design tractor model came out they were tested for a few years in the field and many went to del monte to do that.
Grandad was a dealer from 39 to 68 in Yale Mich Worn cyl/head units were sent back to MM for reconditioning .Spares were kept so that turn around time was reduced .MM felt that a bored block could be held to rounder standards than a sleeve .The R and Z blocks had a larg e side cover to facilitate rod bearing replacement in frame .Early MM 28/44s had roller cam followers and 4 valves per cyl MM was not afraid of cutting edge engineering
Certainly an oddball design, but my vote for the weirdest engine ever is the 2 stroke opposed piston Napier Deltic, with 3 crankshafts housed in a triangular engine block. Totally outrageous! Thanks for your excellent content.
Those are strange....
So are the smaller passenger vehicle "Commer Knocker" TS3 engines. There are quite a few strange engine designs out there to run across.
The cleaning guy is old school man,he is taking ownership of his mistakes🇬🇷
Oreos
The cleaning guy is honest with his mistake and that’s integrity got my respect. Looking forward to seeing the next video.
So wonderful to see 70 YO machines made better than new. This is our country's history, and you guys are historians. RESPECT.
I have to say, I never expected to see this kind of content when I first started watching your channel, but now it has become my favorite stuff you guys do. I love the use of unconventional means and ingenuity to figure out how to do what is necessary to produce the final result and an actual running engine. GOOD STUFF!
I have a ZB and a UB Special. The ZB has a 206 cu in displacement and the UB has 283 cu in. These were great lugging engines. In 1950 my Dad worked for MM in the foundry on Como Ave. The cylinder blocks were often called "jug blocks". MM used a single jug block (2 cylinder) for the engine of the pull behind combine, and 2 jug blocks (4 cylinders) in their Z , U, and G tractors. Their big tractors had 3 jug blocks (6 cylinder). Their big engine had 800 cu in and was used in oil fields, cotton gins, saw mills, irrigation pumps plus even powering big HVAC units for the new large shopping malls of the 1950s and 60s. They were well respected. But then White Motor Co. pulled some stock deal and owned MM in 1963. This led to a new federal law about worker pensions, as White became the owner of the MM employee pension fund and used the $$ to fund part of their Hostile Takeover. Some former employees I have talked to said that under White Motor the high tolerance machines used in the engine production area were used until total failure. The quality of the engines produced in the later 60's suffered frequent tolerance problems requiring overhauls in specialty machine shops after very short lives. White bled MM (& Oliver, & Cockshut -Canadian) to death.
Everything White touched turned into shit
I have a Moline UB sitting in the toolshed. Growing up, this was our largest tractor, next to a John Deere 720D. Dad bought a 1466 Farmall in the late 70s and we REALLY went big. I've always liked the Moline. It had gobbs of torque.
Minneapolis Moline were extremely well built machines and they made sure each part and each assembled unit was the highest quality available.
There was an old man that had a little garage with a tobacco wagon in it that had hit and miss engines bolted to it that he took to shows and festivals. I remember riding my bike by and stopping and watching them run when he would get out and fire them up to get them ready for a show. The old man sadly passed away recently.
The old 350 small block in my 1972 chevy pick-up truck turns right into a hit and miss engine when it needs new breaker points installed.... 😐
I’m speculating that your .0005” taper at the top of the cylinder is better than original. I have no doubt that this old engine is going to run good and long considering the precision you are putting into it. Fascinating and unique piece of equipment.
😊😊😊
Had a boss who often said "If you aren't making mistakes once in a while, all that means is you aren't actually working."
Then the day after "we've decided to let ya go."
Used to work on phone systems that had these ludicrously small rating fuses for each phone. Boss said that if we weren't blowing a couple of those fuses at each job, we were working too slow.
You two guys are great , being a retired mechanic and done some engine rebuilding in my life I really enjoy the video !
My Great Grandfather worked for Moline Plow in the early 1900s when it was still in Moline IL. He wound up doing international sales, first being posted to Argentina and later to So. Africa. From what I understand the Moline had a superior horse drawn plow that was in high demand. When they started building tractors they were a small walk behind tractor with only the front wheels driven. The implement provided the rear support. The early ones were two cylinder and the later ones were four cylinder. They struggled during the Great Depression and sold off the tractor company and later the entire company, with Moline Plow ceasing to exist in Moline IL. Moline Minneapolis tractors were made by a new company that was formed by merging several companies. It would be interesting to know if the original Moline Plow engine survived the transition to the new company. That would explain why your engines were built with two twin block/head cylinder castings.
My grandpa had a couple MM pull-type combines with these engines as the power units for the thresher. When I was in grade school (1970s) I would grab a handful of wrenches and take off covers and anything else I could get off, just to see what was inside. I was wanting to figure out how I could get them unstuck so I could get them to run. Never happened. Much later (early 2000s) I was helping an older farmer who had a model Z. I was just messing around hand cranking the engine, and it started right up. I couldn't believe it. Thanks for showing these engines!
50:20 WOW! That ol' MM tractor started up so easily with the hand crank start! Its so cool seeing and talking to the farmers like that that have been on and around those very tractors all their lives. We need more farmers like this! I could spend days alongside guys like that just listening to their tales & picking up their tips & tricks! Good job guys! 👍🏻👌🏻🛠️🔩🔧🚜🦺🚧⚠️🏗️
Mam oh man what a collection they have there! I love to see all of them better. Maybe next field-trip? 😊
I am always amazed at the skill of the core makers on these integral head blocks. The ones I have had dealings with are the blocks for the Speed Six Vintage Bentley, where due to damage to the head surfaces, we had to weld them up and re-machine back to spec, before reinserting the Nimonic valve seats to take the heat of a competition engine.
I was thinking about OG BENTLEY ... glad you mentioned it!
It's what us peculiar people in the uk call a blind head engine. I've had both two and four stroke examples in the past.
Chainsaw engines are blind and are you thinking of the ‘fixed-head’ Leyland?
@@Dan_moon_sunSo are weed whacker, hedge trimmer, and many other small 2 stroke engines.
That fuel pump diaphragm for your generator is available from Jim Carter's Truck Parts in MO. They specialize in 1930's/1940's GM stuff. It looks identical to the fuel pump on my 1935 Chev. and you were saying it was list as an AC part number.
We got one delivered over the weekend 😯
A lot of extra work for the machine shop just to avoid head gaskets! The legendary Offenhauser and Miller racing engines also used integral cylinder head but they needed to with very high compression and supercharging.
YES! I think they should find an old Offy builder to find out what they did about the cylinder taper. I bet they had some tricks! The only foundry Miller/Offenhouser used was a small one in Oakland, CA and a good block was something that came very dear. Reportedly several other foundry tried, with Offy factory encouragement and the loan of the patterns to cast offy blocks but none succeeded. The end of the Offenhouser was hastened by the scarcity of good blocks and other spare parts in the mid 1970's.
Another interesting thing about the MM engine is that the valve design is much like the "Walking Beam" design that was used on the early Dusenberg engines. It was rumored that Dusenberg had a hand in the Cord V8 where the valves came into the chamber at about 45 degrees as apposed to the 90 degree angle in the walking beam (and Moline tractor) engine.
Crosley engines were of similar design.
You guys do top notch work! I enjoy watching you and learning from you guys. I wish you were closer to me. Automotive machine shops are far and few between around where I live and it’s become a lost art. As a professional diesel mechanic and Hot Rodder, a machine shop is something I have to develop a relationship and trust with. I love and appreciate your honesty and integrity. Your clean shop also speaks volumes to me.
I truly love your videos… I’m hardly more than a shade tree mechanic but everything I know came from my Pop and my Uncle. Nicolaus… you are blessed to have a source of knowledge like your father to glean from. I love the fact that you are carrying on the family business. No doubt there is anything but success in y’all’s future. Keep on keeping on with the “not so normal” content… but I’d love to see an old school big block high horsepower build with y’all’s touch on it!
That was fun with the tractors there. Thank you for the tour. Couple of great guys there.
A Little "attitude" there to contend with.
In 1975 I was a fresh out of school machinist working for White Superior in Springfield Ohio. I was running a 6 foot horizontal boring mill. Cutting the bore on a 26.5 inch compressor cylinder body. I had to cut a relief in the bottom of the blind cylinder. I didn’t extend the tool far enough to clear the rack gear on the tool ram. As I brought it over I heard it start cutting and reached over to look in. I saw a grove every place the rack gear touched. I was scared I just lost my job. I just scrapped a 30 k in 1975 dollars part. That was a good house back then. The Forman calmly said, what did you learn? Just don’t let it happen again and let’s move on. Whew. They salvaged it by cutting it oversized and hard chrome plating the bore and grinding it to size. So someone got a good cylinder. I got a hell of a lesson.
Thanks for the update on what happened. I am glad they paid you for repairs. After hitting an animal that size, I understand the shock of damage that happens in that instance. Super glad you and the family are good.
I appreciate that you two accept the challenges of working with these older engines. Shops like yours are few and far between these days. Thanks for your content!
I have T-bolts which fit down into the slots when turned ninety degrees. I made them myself after the second time I forgot them and had to tear down and rebuild a complex setup. BIG timesavers!
The other oddity of this engine that you did not mention is the rocker arms. The rockers are about 9" long end extend vertically directly from the valve to the camshaft. They pivot on dowels that are bolted down along with the cylinders to the crankcase. You can see them at 0:57 .
I meant to include this but I must’ve cut that clip accidentally!
Great field visit, those old tractors never die with you 2 around!
Regarding your debate about main bearings. Early Z's had 2 main bearings, but they had a center oiling sleeve that supplied oil to # 2&3 rod bearings. Looked just like a main bearing journal, but offered no support. Only connected with a collar and copper oil line .
Front main bearing was a roller ball bearing, rear bearing was a shell bearing with thrust flanges.
The detail and precision of these guys is amazing
You are truly blessed to have such a good relationship with your dad
I must say the guide to fit new guides when you don't own the proper tooling to bore out the old guides to the specific dimensions to fit the new guide in the old guide and instead use a sacrificial guide to get to where the new guide will fit, was a great guide 👍
Spent my childhood plowing with a Minnie-Mol. Takes me back 65 years.
You were plowing when I was 1 year old. Blessings brother.
@@GeneralSulla Blessings for you as well.
There were some very strange head designs back in ancient times.
A friend of mine is a pattern maker / foundry manager.
A few days ago he showed me a replacement head he cast for a 1930s Bentley Speed 6.
It has overhead valves but they are in a separate chamber (with the spark plug) and communicate with the piston via a large slot. Also the inlet and exhaust valves are at very different heights. I can't see the logic of it.
Did valves used in early engines were adapted from steam engine poppet valves. They moved on to overhead inlet with side exhaust (inlet over exhaust). Advantage was a very large inlet valve. Eventually they just fitted both valves in the head but had to accept smaller valves.
I personally think sleeve valves were the biggest dead end. Just too complicated. I also think sump lubricated two strokes were the biggest lost opportunity. Detroits tried but they never went to blower style air chargers which allow air supply to always exceed demand.
Honda used to use a plug in a separate chamber,with a richer mixture, combustion spreading to a weak mixture in the cylinder. Reverse to as stratified charge.,I think.
@@keithhooper6123
No, that is how stratified charge works. I believe Honda use a 3rd small valve near the plug to introduce the richer charge.
Hey guys, I really appreciate you taking the time and putting in the effort to make these videos. It’s got to be a giant pain in the butt sometimes when you’re trying to get a job done and you have a camera in your way, Trust me, all of us love a weird engine, I’ve been in the business for 40+ years. It’s nice to not do the same thing over and over again.
Fantastic work and truth in owning the mistake.
Thank you for having the integrity show us everything
Thanks for toning down thr editing. This video had a really nice feel to it.
Enjoy watching you guys, extremely knowledgeable on both sides but I love watching the new school tech and old school ways collide for a outcome nothing short of amazing!
I’ve been building my circle track engines myself for the last 7 years obviously outsourcing machine work.. I really enjoy doing it myself and seeing it work!!
I bought a MM I found in field in Colorado when I was a teenager. It had the cylinders cast in pairs but overhead valves in a detachable head. It kept me busy for awhile, but I did eventually get it running! I still have the Vise Grips I found in the clutch housing.
You're OK, Pops.
We all make mistakes.
50:17 That yellow tractor cranked right up ! Impressive ! 😮
That's a nice collection of "old iron".👌😎
I enjoy the way you guys work together. Thanks again for your time to share your experience and knowledge with us.
Will love to visit you guys sometime and see those tractors too .
Blessings and good luck.
Teach the boys when the time comes.
It’s a losing art , all of it.
Thanks for another great video Jim and Nickolas.
It was extremely interesting and informative and enjoyable to watch.
This has been a wonderful journey once again on these old Minneapolis Moline tractor parts. These parts are so unusual in the way they were designed and made and that fact alone makes this so interesting.
The farmer that has the moline collection and can talk about the parts pretty good on his own, was most interesting to talk to. His background was very good. His collection was one of the best I have seen of moline collections. You were able to glean a lot of information off of him.
This video has been another super teaching tool. Appreciate the way you both tackle redoing these old parts. The old fashioned way of doing things is so valuable. Jim your ability and knowledge on the old machine shop way is invaluable in today’s world. I have looked at this video several times and sincerely appreciate your insight to bring these old parts back to life. Nickolas is good in his new way of working with technology but having you to show him the old ways is greatly valuable to him. I trust he appreciates that resource in you.
Well it looks like you both have done a fantastic job on getting these old parts ready to go. I have a ton of respect for both of you and your machine shop business!!!!!!!!
Have so enjoyed your video. Brings back a lot of memories of hanging out as a kid around our small town machine shop.
You folks are amazing at what you do!!!!!!!!
Thanks so much for showing all of us how to bring parts back to life again.
Looking forward to the next video.
You mentioned having more on this subject and maybe more on the old generator.
My very best regards to both of you always!!!!!!!’
The retired Air Force veteran.
😊😊👍✅🙏🇺🇸
That stinks when that kind of stuff happens. It is what it is, just need to keep your chin up and move forward.
Keep up the good work.
Very nice work guys.
Very interesting engine.
Jim I applaud your humbleness.
I have certainly made my mistakes.
We learn by doing.
Sometimes it's a hard lesson.
I am always reminded, we're not perfect but we are human.
Much respect.👍
Thanks for sharing.
Have a great day.
Thanks for watching!
The Auburn V-12 had a similar valve configuration as well as the Duesenberg walking beam engine.
I have a ZB sitting in a clump of brush on a turn row. It's sitting exactly where they pulled it to after it threw a rod through the side of the block 50 years ago. MM had some strange engines, I've been into a couple over the years. MM were good tractors but you couldn't run them under load at low rpms. My uncle was a MM dealer until 68 or 69.
Great content! My wife’s Grandfather restored the R model. We enjoy driving it around the farm in North Dakota.
My grandfather work for moline back in the 30s and 40s. Located in Mpls Mn on Hiawatha Ave.
I had a z mini mole when I was younger. I think it was a newer model. I had no idea that it was such a weird engine. I never did. They have to go into it. I pulled logs out of the woods with it.
Very cool video fellas! Never seen this type of head arrangement before. While you were machining the valve seats I could almost smell the cutting oil, & my ears kinda confirmed the head was being machined at just the right rate! - Not that I'm a machinist at all! - although I have used a lathe before. Love them diamond hones; what a brilliant invention!
This was great to watch, & it was pleasing to see the actual model tractors these engine parts were used in. Can I put in a request to see the engine these heads will bolt to running in the tractor? That would really put the icing on the cake!
I worked at an engine machine shop in California in the early 80s tearing down engines and cleaning up for rebuilding. I was told that the GMC V-6 from the 60s were tapered bore.010" smaller at the top of the stroke to help the rings live longer. That's gradually bigger at the bottom of the bore to the top.
New drinking game. Every time Nicholas says "Guide", you have to drink. Great video. Watching you guys bring life back to these old engines amazes me every time.
B LG vs b n inch ol as g hi ude n drink pure fu o n hh hi kmcde!
Its neat to see a running example with the type engine being worked on.
Nice video, good production, excellent editing! A bit overwhelming how many tools and machines you have in your workshop. I used a sun hone that had a dwell function on it for tapered areas, just dwell and it would remain stationary for a few seconds. Your dad was spot on when he spoke of the top ring end gap.
When you hit the machine when it was running validates what I used to teach the young guys, always shut machinery off when changing your operating position.
The sound of those tractors starting and running is sweet music to my ears.
Those oddities are actually really fun to watch to see the challenges you guys face. Nice work
I was checking the crank bearings on a model ZAE back in the late 90's. I have been in several Moline engines over the years. The ZA was a continuing of the ZT models and along with the model R they morphed into the 335, 445 series. Anyways the R and older Z have no center main and have a roller bearing in the front journal. The older Z technically has a bearing surface in the center BUT it was for feeding oil to the crank vis a vis a bronze bushing collar. The ZA actually has a center main. Anyhooo they had no listing for a main set specifically for a ZA (and probably ZT too) but one could still get the unique rear main and front roller bearing separate. One could also still get a kit for 335/445 models yet too. By then they weren't using roller bearings in the front anymore. I checked the specs out on these models and surmised that the 335/445 kit would work in this tractor albeit with an extra main bearing to buy. And indeed the required center main was the same in these newer sets. I don't know what it is like now with these parts.
Do not scrap we have 3.8 pistons available!!!!!
I'm getting old too brother. I have to takr every third day easy, but not off. Theres always work to do on the ranch. God willing, Ill do my thing for another 10-20 years. Besides, every cleaning guy deserves sitting stool. Wait, that didn't come out right...,😆
Good job Gentleman. My Daddy's got a 1950's MM Z we used it to farm with in the 1980's it was easy on gas and rode and drove good. Also a good pulling tractor. Cheap to keep up, tough. All that's needed is Gas, oil, water, air, land, seed, fertilizer, blood, swet and THE GOOD LORD. Oh my Daddy had told me about this engine and now I can understand, what he's talking about. God Bless America.
We refurbished a Z ten or so years back. Mechanically it was in really good shape. Maybe some seals here or there, but I know we never tore the engine or transmission down. Had no idea the engines were so unique. Good running machine.
I love the videos of working on these older unique engines!
Please look up Allen Millyard. One man in a one car garage making V12 motor cycle engines, 5 cylinder two-stroke engines, bikes with aircraft engines all by hand and all on his own. Worth a look.
I can honestly say, I've never made that mistake,,,,, because I've never bored a cylinder in a machine shop!
The engineering on some of the old stuff is really fascinating
Good video, was nice to see a G707 in that fellow’s shed. Dad bought a brand new one in about 1966. Spent many a cold fall day on it in northern Alberta pulling a 16’ deep tillage cultivator. The hand clutch on those 707s were a “handful” for a young kid to operate.
I always thought that the engineers who designed that engine were crazy. I guess they weren’t that awful considering here we are 70 years later and they’re still some of them out there running.
Bloopers reel? My whole life has been going from one blooper to the next
I love how old stuff is a combination of super simple and overly complicated.
Helix mattress huh? Here the mattresses have a wide selection of comfort levels, from sandstone to polished granite😂
Wut, they don't have the Chip n Seal option any longer??
Well I sleep under a rock so there's that! 😆
loved the "Jack and Wyatt" visit.
I think you'd call that a SNAFU.
also bigest you can safely bore is 3 7/8" can use 283 chevy pistons lots of head options re226 re226c and lp head
I would absolutely love to come out there and visit. Do you guys have any type of visiting hours? Or tours of the shop? Or any way to meet you guys? I absolutely love watching your shows and would love to meet you guys.
After 4 days of working in shifts, I’ve finally reached the end of your video. Thanks!
How about you actually do the work you're paid for?? 🤔
You must not have understood my joke. I had to break up the long video into segments. Aka shifts
In 1984, I was attending Black Hawk College East in Kewanee, Illinois, working on my Associates degree in Applied Science to be an Ag Mechanic. The last semester, myself and 2 other students had a project to rebuild a ZA Minni Mo. The machine work was done in town. We got it together and running right at the end of the school year. Took it for a test drive, and overheated pulling a small hill. Long story short, the cylinder/head assembly both had a crack between the valves, blowing combustion into the cooling system under load.
Luckily, the owner had extras, and we had have 3 more sets pressure tested that didn’t leak, although they were still cracked.
The other 2 guys quit the project, and the instructor and I spend half of summer break to finally get it running and out the door.
I don’t know what happened to it after that.
Quite the learning experience.
I got a real education with this one. And that tractor collection is amazing. Fixing the cylinder boo boo might be tricky with the blind deck/hole surface.
I blame your son! ( jokingly ) he was joking about crashing. This guy has a beautiful collection of tractors!
The early Oakland V-8 (~1930) had horizontal valves like that - but the had detachable heads.
there were a lot of early high performance automotive engines in the 1920s and '30s with non- detachable heads,
probably the most well known in the US being the Miller / Offenhauser.
Great video. That's a tough project. Very interesting to watch.
You guys do beautiful work, very informative. Working in metric, however, is much more simple, easy and even accurate depending on what is being measured. But, older American and British machines are always in imperial measurements, so you guys do what you have to do. Fun to watch!
The day we switched from Imperial to Metric in New Zealand was a happy one..
I did my apprenticeship in Metric in Europe, worked for 5 years in Imp. when
I immigrated, and then back to Metric again.
The older fitters/turners had some trouble switching over,but most liked it.
More accurate? Do tell. Last time I checked decimals go as far as you want.
@@verteupTrue. Both systems are as accurate as you need them to be. The system you choose to use depends primarily on the one you’re most comfortable working with.
Great work and as always very professional.
I owned one of these tractors, and, I loved it. Mostly used it on a grain auger, but, also for some other light chores. I was used to the hand clutch, because I had lots of the two cylinder John Deeres. These were tough and well made. I also used it to pull a pull type grain swather just for fun of seeing the two MM peices of equiptment at work. I think those tractors were made in the early fifties. It is about seventy years old.
This was a super cool episode. It was a treat to learn about the MM Z. But the WEIRDEST engine ever made had to be the Sarich Orbital.
I repaired rust pits scratches in cylinder walls with JB weld epoxy.
Engines still running.
Seriously.
You can save antique castings .
If no other choice or no money .
Apply to dry clean rough surfaces level with razor blades.
Then hone cylinder.
I tried it and engine still running good for 4 years on construction machine.
1hr21min. Every time I need to listen to a noise, will be the instant that my Dad chooses to communicate. 😂 Amazing video, thanks guys.
I would have set that up by bolting a straight edge on the mating face located on top of an angle plate. Blind cylinders were common on early side valve engines. I was a Millwright so its an easy job to me to salvage the engine. I have worked on new jet engines and Nuclear Reactor Cores, much more difficult than these old engines. I made the tooling for Perkins Engine production in the eighties, and these old engines were often made on WW1 worn out machinery.
Oh man! That "blooper" makes me feel a lot better about the stupid mistakes I make. Poop happens 🤷🏼♂️
Love the obscure, old and rare
Great channel !
I worked for the MM dealer in Grand Junction CO myself year in High school 1953-54 and for two years of Junior College. the R and Z with hand clutch were popular for combination row crop and orchard work because of the low driver position. The U would output any other row crop tractorl.
What I learned I translated into20 years as an AF CIVIL ENGINEER and 30 years as a consulting engineer projects in 15 states and 7
Foreign countries. In Ruwand in one of my last projects I found a 1941 U series running an irrigation pump
😊😊
The field trip was great. Keep them coming.
Love that old man. Those are museum pieces that could go to work tomorrow.
Was watching M539 channel the other day when he was having his BMW block bored and them German block machining folk got an application that brings them low spots up, even from a microscopic prospective…
☮️
Luckily pappies of later year are more within reason!
My papps would’ve called that in!!! 😮
My father had a R, Z and U Minneapolis Tractors. The first one he purchased in 1938 was a two bearing Z, his only tractor for the duration of the WWII. The R and U were post war tractors.
Nammco Machine in Lubbock Texas still makes Moline shafts, gears and Engine parts and can also sand cast engine blocks and heads.
Tapered cylinder bores were a thing in the early 1900 air cooled engine. The early Harley Davidson cylinders (JD models) were final honed with tapered stones. I scratched my head as to “how am I gonna do that.”. We spent $10k on a machine that bores perfectly straight! Hahahaha
Yea, ain't that a bitch....
I could produce tapered bores when they were SUPPOSED to be straight. BUT, tobproduce a proper tapered bore to the required specs.... 😬
I have to say that I thoroughly enjoy watching you guys do your thing. I might need to make a road trip out there to have my 1966 Ford 200 machine work done. Keep up the great videos!