How does plastic affect stability? Plastic Comparison: Part 2 | The Plastic is in the Details
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- čas přidán 26. 07. 2024
- How do discs fly in different plastics? What makes them fly differently? The Plastic is in the details as we test 6 different molds in Part 2 of our comparison test!
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It's really quite amazing how you guys break things down. It's intelligent enough to lend a great explanation but also laymen enough to make it feel organic. Keep up the great work, SSD. Love from AZ.
Thank you very much! We always start with research and analyzing our throws before we draw our conclusions so hopefully they all have some basis in reality!
In a short time this has easily become one of the best disc golf channels out there, awesome content. Looking forward to more.
Thank you very much! We'll keep trying to live up to those expectations!
I believe Discraft has the most durable plastic on the market.
Not very consistent thought, warped flight plates and stuff
@@prattacaster I have never had a warped flight plate ever. I buy all esp and z line and they’re all great at hitting a lot of trees and never severely damaged or gashed. Marks and niks but nothing like MVP/Axiom that gash easily. Innova and Discmania hold up very well too.
Using where the two pieces of plastic meet as the parting line is over simplified, IMO. Where that seem is, does not affect the way the air flows around the disc. A Disc is a wing, wings work by having air moving at different speeds above and below the wing. So look for the leading edge of the disc, then compare the shape above that edge to below that edge, if the bottom is flat and the top is round, you will get lift and there for turn. If the bottom is round and the top is flat, you won't get lift and there for no turn. Also, when comparing discs remember the parting line is relative to the overall hight of the disc's 'wing', so by itself comparing parting lines isn't reliable, you need to compare potential air flow. You only need to consider the 'wing' section of the disc (outer 1/2 Inch or so) as that's where the greatest difference in lift occurs, (due to wind speed differences induced by spin).
Absolutely correct. Parting line height, by itself, is meaningless. It's the overall height and shape of the wing. Wings with similar to and bottom shadows tend to be neutral in high speed stability, unless the disc is overtorqued, when they will turn over, sometimes dramatically. Discs with convex upper wings and concave lower wings tend to be high speed understable and low speed overstable. This is most drivers, but the few with almost equal straight angles on both wings, such as Discraft Heat and Lone Star Mockingbird, tend to be fantastic at shaping any shot.
Joel Freeman did a video about dome. I would love to see if his hypothesis holds. He stated that dome makes a disc more resistant to turn and fade, basically making a disc more neutral and reliable.
Sounds like something fun to test!
new subscriber... so well done! keep up the great work!
Wow, these are the best, most informative videos I've seen! Thank you so much for all of your time and hard work, and thanks for sharing.
Thanks!
Earned my sub. So many great videos on this channel
Great to have you! Thanks for watching!
Great video! I have 6 Innova molds each in DX, Star, and Champion. Reliably, DX is a full point or two flippier than Star, and Ch is a full point or two more stable than Star. My Ch Sidewinder (-3,1) and my Star Valkyrie (-2,2) and my DX Thunderbird (0,2) all fly about the same.
Z Glow Buzz is my favorite
love these, gimme some prodigys
These videos are interesting. They kinda match personal experience but sometimes you just get some wild outliers as well. I've got a champ metal flake katana that I mostly refer to as my least stable destroyer. I can technically get some turn on it if I absolutely hammer it on a forehand but it's only just barely less stable than my star destroyer.
I love this nerdy shiv
Height from the table is only half the story, which may explain why PLH doesn't hold true. However, if you compare it in the context of total disc height, taking into account the dome or total height, you'll get a better picture of things.
Also, Kastaplast has a reputation of manufacturing inconsistencies, so it's a bad example to use. They're either pressing discs in molds that haven't warmed up to operating temperature yet, or they're using different molds and sometimes forget (or not bother) to change the mold when they change the plastic mid-day (and it could be intentional, because warm-up time would take away production time).
Absolutely mindblown. I've always shopped based on PLH and in my personal testing that has always produced a noticeable difference in stability. I'm not sure what's real anymore with plastic. Good Stuff!
Plh is still a good indicator for stability, however it is not 100%. Generelly speaking though, if you have a disc with a higher plh, 9/10 it will be more stable than the lower plh
@@TheDrakmannenI concur with this statement. Curious: How do you find dome to be related to stability? (Assuming identical PLH’s)
It seems to me dome on an understable disc will exaggerate Turn.
Many folks hold the opinion that dome on an overstable disc (e.g. pop-top Destroyers) tends to add to the overstability of that mold.
I don’t know what to make of it because it seems very circumstantial. Shouldn’t dome mostly be related to Glide (i.e. Lift)?
@@BryceRogers_ In my limited testing Ive come to pretty much the same conclusion as you regarding dome. US disc more turn OS disc more overstability in regards to dome. I dont really see as strong of a connection with dome as with PLH tho.
The only mold Ive done real testing on is the star wraith, and that is usually more dome = more OS.
Perhaps dome just makes it more of what it already is, which kind of makes sense, since as far as I understand more lift would make the high air flow on a US disc even higher. Not sure how it would do the opposite to the OS disc, but it kinda makes sense to me somehow 😅
Edit: I remember Joel Freeman made a comment on dome, and according to him dome makes all discs straighter i.e. less turn and less fade. I wouldnt say I agree with this 100%, but hes probably done more testing than most so who am I to argue ^^
@@TheDrakmannen What you said makes sense to me. I also am not sure if I'd agree with Joel, but again, he probably knows more about discs than me.
Maybe when Destroyer-fanatics talk about it, they mean domey-er runs of Destroyer indicate a specific mold used to produce that disc, and in the case of Destroyers, the "domey molds" are also coincidentally more OS.
I can see what Joel means in the sense that more Lift is correlated with more on-axis torque, and ergo straighter / more "stable" flights. I'd love to read a book on this subject...
If it's the same plastic and same run than the parting line usually always works unless there is a dome. I threw 2 brand new gstar shrykes, one has a dome and a lower parting line and it is more stable than the one with the higher parting line.
I do wish you would’ve actually tested metal flake and glow discs.
the flight numbers for the Neutron Volt are 8 5 -2 1.5 according to their website... have they changed the mold for that plastic, and forgotten to update the numbers?
I know they had those numbers for it since last year, because I looked into it then and ordered one (it got lost in the mail - but you can see it on the pictures on their website that's what's stamped on the pics of the electron).
MVP has different flight numbers for Electron, Fission and then the rest of the plastics share the same numbers. The numbers you posted are for the Electron plastic, the Fission is -1/2 or -1/1.5 ish, and the rest are -0.5/2 for the Volt.
All the zone nerds say the most stable zones are the esp flx and the crystal flx
The trespasses are interesting. I’ve thrown cloudbreakers, destroyers, and trespasses. The trespass is surprisingly more overstable than destroyers, which doesn’t make a ton of sense to me. I’m not sure if it’s just my specific run or disc but it borders on the stability of my 2nd run cloudbreaker and that thing is really beefy. For context I’m at 4500 feet elevation so everything is a bit more stable, but the both my trespasses feel like a cloudbreaker. They don’t want to push past 400 most of the time. The cloudbreakers will if I throw them flat.
This is super surprising. Every Trespass we've tested has been super understable, especially compared to destroyers and similar flight numbers, again, could be a plastic thing, but it was a whole thing in our Flight Numbers Don't Matter video.
Hey maybe test the new DM different colour stability differential on same molds 😅
I think you should be able to start narrowing in on the truth by really isolating all these factors. Weight, PLH, plastic, stiffness, and dome. All things being equal, i think the community's intuitons are likely correct. A higher parting line implies more overstability. As does a higher weight. Dome I've always thought of as making a disc less stable, but if that other commenter is right when he says that joel freeman says it makes a disc more neutral, well, I would go with what joel says.
Long story short, i think the better you can do at isolating as close to only one of these factors at a time, the closer to a real answer youll get.
Good stuff as always.
Parting line seems to have more effect on drivers, putters it’s hard to tell
Thanks for the great breakdown and testing. Its interesting to see the results. As a pilot having studied aerodynamics I would like to see a test of the same discs ability to stay true to its flight numbers, in different density altitudes😀 I find there to be a close coherency between the discs ability to maintain speed, create lift and its overall stability. Which are affected by density altitude. Of course all thrown at the same speed and angle of attack. That means the same disc may greatly change its flightcaracetristics thrown at the same altitude on two different days, just in different pressure and temperature. Because of increased lift and drag and vica versa. What is the perfect density altitude for max distance?
I've found Innova DX plastic, especially with drivers, not mid or putters, tend to be much more understable. I would love to see a comparison of a nuetralish driver, say an Orc or Valkyrie in all the major plastics Innova makes at the same weight.
I finally finished my collection: Thunderbird (0,2), Valkyrie (-2,2), Sidewinder (-3,1) each in DX, GStar, Star, Halo Star and Champion. Consistently, DX is most understable, Champion most overstable. So much so that my DX Thunderbird and my Star Valkyrie and my Ch Sidewinder all fly about the same. And I have Destroyer/Wraith/Beast each in DX/Star/Ch and get same results.
Great video! I would also enjoy including some testing of the dome and beat in versions of discs to see how that would affect stability.
Also as a side note- do you think that people who throw many discs of the same mold with different stabilities (either from different plastics or beating jn) have a smaller range in stability compared to people who throw different molds for different stabilities? Which do you think makes more sense or is it just preference?
Great observation. In my closet I have 5 Destroyers in 3 different plastics that all fly VERY differently and I have 3 different Innova molds each in 5 different plastics. My two cents: equal variation between plastic as can be found between molds. So it is valid to go with 5 Destroyers or 5 different molds in the same plastic, but mixing those two strategies makes it confusing. (FWIW, my bag is now all Star plastic.)
I've got a Glow Buzz, Glow Envy and Glow Hex (Lizottle) and at my elevation, they're all much more overstable than their non-glow versions. So much so, they're just not that much fun to throw.
Innova does change flight numbers based on the plastic? For example Ch Boss is 13,5,0,3 and Star Boss is 13,5,-1,3
More than ever we need a mechanical disc thrower where you can set a couple different typical spin rates, and then 5 mph increments of release speed from 50-85 mph then take it out to the field on a zero wind day and run discs through it
Sounds like they just screwed up that Lucid run.
I like the content, I want to see more. So don't hate me for the following...
They still aren't throwing the same lines! I am not crazy right? You can see it in the side by side @9:53. The ESP FLX was even more obvious, but you did call it out. (Side note, killer throws. It's easier to hit a 5 ft gap than to replicate exact shots).
That does bring me to my suggestion for the next one. Torque resistance. The reason I think most people absolutely love the Buzzz is they are rarely flippy. Slight Hyzer, they flip to flat and just ride. Too much hyzer (The Big Z and Flx) and they hold that line. Throw with 110% power? They fly the same but go further. Some discs just flip hard.
Lastly, the reason I like premium plastic is it holds up well. Would be cool to see an old beat up premium Vs new premium. Compare that to old dented base line vs brand new baseline. How many trees can you hit before a disc flies wonky?
Love the feedback. We know we're not perfect, we're no disc machines or disc scientists but experimenting, testing, is helping us learn a lot about discs and I love the idea of testing how long it takes to beat-in a disc in premium vs base!
@@SixSidedDiscs Agreed. LOVE the content, but the release angles are, shall we say, "real world examples." FWIW, in other videos I have seen the video editor freeze the video at release and draw a line graphic across the disc to highlight the release angle before resuming the throw. (That sounds like a lot of work to me!) It would also be important to show the throw uninterrupted at regular speed as well. Just an idea.
Get a bit lighter ESP FLX Buzz and it's understable. At least for me.
Where did your hair go from part one?
Is there any place to go to just throw some discs and THEN decide what you wanna buy?
Great question, I think I could eventually see disc golf shops having a driving range type deal to try before you buy in an open field, so far the disc golf buyer experience definitely has a trial and error vibe to it.
169g to 176g is less than ~5% difference in total weight if I mental math is correct
I really wish you guys would abandon parting line. It's the bottom of the wing that's important. The line itself is irrelevant. Sometimes the two match-sometimes they don't.
First
You're almost getting to the point of "nothing affects nothing". I mean, there has to be some attributes that make one disc different from another or else you couldn't possibly design a consistent disc. Everyone knows Eclipse 2.0 Envy is the most overstable version of that disc. Until you make a robot and do these tests inside these videos are just entertainment, not scientific.
I understand where you're coming from. From our perspective, we're testing these discs because we want to know and understand more about discs. And no, we can't throw a disc exactly the same every time, but we can throw them 5-10 times, understand their stability relative to another, and help show that as accurately as we can.
I think you make a good point, "...there has to be some attributes that make one disc different from another or else you couldn't possibly design a consistent disc.", but I think you've made it the opposite of how you expected, not necessarily in a bad way.
The fact is, most manufacturers are not consistent. That's why we hear about this run or that run being WAY more stable, or understable, or whatever. Even the pros talk about it that this run is different. Now maybe sometimes that's on purpose, or maybe sometimes its on accident. I think what I'd like to see is manufacturers acknowledge that on the stamp's flight numbers, or in their marketing, "The most overstable Destroyer yet", etc.
For most experienced players, these aren't issues, and I understand that, we pool our tribal knowledge, but its frustrating trying to explain flight numbers or plastic stability differences to new players. I think it creates an unintentional barrier to entry for new players.
But I absolutely acknowledge we're not 100% scientific, I'm not sure we want to be, but we try to limit the variables, report our experiences, encourage people to try for themselves and hope it is indeed entertaining.
Thanks for watching and I appreciate your candid feedback!
Every aspect of construction and flight are measurable. Scientifically.
SPEED should be the most easily tested and should be laser-accurate. There should be MPH/KPH indicating the slowest speed required to achieve the flight related in the flight numbers.
Glide can be measured accurately too, without much difficulty.
Same for turn and fade.
My question is why is it taking so long to become a standard with regulations and testing?
We have mechanical pitching machines which can throw precise speed, while also throwing curve balls, sliders, fastballs, etc. Why hasn't anyone created the equivalent machine for discs?