Headtracking opened the SIM World for me for more than a decade. Never thought this would change. But since I used VR for the first time I now cannot go backwards and I only fly in VR. VR changed everything... It costs a lot but it is worth it if flightsimulation is your passion
VR has changed the game for me. I used to use OpenTrack coupled with a XBox Kinect camera for head tracking. It worked great, but accuracy in landing with both fixed and rotary wing aircraft has dramatically increased for me in VR. I used to really struggle with aerial refueling with just head tracking, and it's almost too easy with VR.
Long time VR flight simmer. Would never look back, has completely changed simming for me. I personally never fly on a monitor anymore .. it just doesn't feel like really "flying" to me. I fly with a lot of other flight simmers and I've only known one or two who've gone back from VR. For the majority it's a one way trip.
VR is the best thing that happened to simulators. depth perception can help you judge your size relative to space like landing pods or other tight spaces you are required to land through, it was never that easy for me to land a helicopter until i got into VR.
Focal accommodation is really needed for VR for long term comfort and a more natural experience, while for AR it's either not as important or is even a negative. We are a ways off from getting that, though, as only Hololens 2 and IVAS are using lasers on released products so far, you need lasers to do the best type of voxel focal length changing, and even these two aforementioned designs are not doing per-voxel focal accommodation. HL2 is good enough for B2B AR, but while IVAS is more advanced, it's military hardware and restricted. Maybe in a few tech generations like IVAS V3 will lead to a consumer product that can also do focal accommodating VR for home sims. In the meantime, IMO the other thing that current VR headsets are not doing right is the central overlap of your FOV for the limited stereoscopic effect you currently get.
It's kinda great, I flew my sims almost entirely in VR for 3-4 years, but now switched back to the monitor + TrackIR. Performance, visual fidelity and convenience are key words here. Don't get me wrong VR is cool, and can help you to train certain skills, but after several years it becomes annoying that one must tweak settings of your favourite sims after every update, and visual artefacts (stuttering, distortions) become a bit too much to glance over. So for me at the moment, it's kinda cool to hop in VR from time to time, but not really essential to enjoy my sims.
Incredible to experience simming in VR. DCS World on the original Rift was my first experience flying in VR and it absolutely blew me away. I fly MSFS exclusively in VR now on my HP Reverb G2 and it's so incredible. Going back is simply not an option. I can understand perhaps ppl who fly airliners might stick to a desktop but for helicopters and small GA planes, VR is made for this and MSFS is a fantastic title to explore too as the landscape is so rich it makes VR bush flying a complete joy.
I’m not sure if you mentioned, or maybe I didn’t pick up on it, but another major factor with VR, everything you are looking at is 1:1 like it would be in the real world. This means, the cyclic, or the Avi tab or the gauge all look life size. With a monitor, to get a true reality scale, it depends on the side and how far it is from your eyes. With VR, it always just looks right.
The depth perception alone is more than worth it. Especially when doing AAR in a flight sim. First time i tried it in the F-18 instinctively reached for the towel bar (launch hold on) and smacked my head on the desk. Depending were you live get it from Amazon you get 30 days to try it before you need to keep it or send it back
Before I bought my first real VR headset, I got one of those cheap phone-headsets for like 10$ and watched a few 3D videos on youtube, like DCS filmed in stereo-optic. That gave me a great sense of what proper VR would be like, and if it worked for me.
Not yet, but considering VR, HP Reverb v2. My only "problem" is the flight time, without vr on long flights I just leave it running, with vr its probably more troublesome to just leave it running? Glad to know you're making YT content, subscribed.
Hey Bruno thanks! You could always turn the headset off but turning the set on and off could eventually cause issues with the sim and crash it. Not that it could do that all the time but there's always that risk.
I agree. I think simming is the epitome of the use of VR and helicopters are very particular and gain more from it. Perhaps bush flying in general as well!
I have both and whilst I much prefer VR for the visual side of things I'm still too much of a noob to flying and sometimes need to use my keyboard and mouse which is very difficult with the headset on. Once I have managed to map all the essential buttons to my controllers(Warthog) and then got the muscle memory to find said buttons I'm sure it'll be sheer joy for emersion.
The only thing missing in VR now is a proper hand-tracking system like LeapMotion if they can just perfect that then throw in some haptics in there and that would be awesome.
I have to say I have mixed feelings about that. I love t he technology and it's handy (no pun intended) but it may require you to have a bigger clear area in front of you so you can lean and "touch" the panels. But yea, that would be a big step towards immersion.
I have a set of VR glasses sitting on the shelf and never use them (anymore). I used it primarily for racing. I flew a little in DCS and X-plane with them too. The immersion is 100%. It's like you explained, you can't really describe it. You are just inside the cockpit flying or driving at Spa. It does step up your abilities... EXCEPT for eyes and fingers. If you are "aged" or wear glasses, focusing on details was always a nuisance. Of course the big picture was easy, but having to read details on gages... (for me) awful. The other issue is manipulating knobs & dials inside the car or cockpit. Some things are a ton easier by hitting an F key - versus having to memorize a ton of button mappings. The immersion is so good, that you just want to reach over and flip the switch - but you can't. That broke the immersion for me.
Usually use my Oculus Quest 2 VR for all flight though does struggle in xplane 11 zibo 737 due for system and Gpu upgrade,the DCS AH64D is unplayable in VR for me due to lag at present so out with the trusty trackir,use VR for all other DCS modules and ❤️ it.
It's been my experience that once people try VR with flight sims, they can't go back to 2d. It's doubly true with Helicopters, where judging where you are in space is so much more important. You will double your control skill in helis by going to VR. Hovering becomes simple because you can sense where you are and where you are drifting.
As of today I use Track IR for helicopter flying. Other fixed wing aircraft I just use the monitor. I do intend to get VR but while my GPU is VR capable I would prefer to upgrade it first. So VR is likely in the not so distant future.
Depends. I tend to like head tracking when learning a new module as Im always watching videos on startup and weapons system. VR brings a sense of "being there" but if you got a system that just barely can run it, it can be headache or sickness inducing. Air to Air stuff VR is great, not so much for AG. For me its mixed cause I have vision issues, and sensitive to refreash rate issues. Getting a updated pc has helped with motion sickness but with DCS being the issue over hardware, I can play maybe an hour before I have to stop in VR. Head tracking on a 60 inch monitor, Ive played 8 hours straight. Also you can recreate a cockpit in the "real world" Sure its expensive (simming is in general) , but one thing that holds me back in VR is hand tracking. It would be great to have a real buttons and switches cockpit (in the process of doing an f18 1:1 cockpit) and it translate in the VR where you can see your hands in the VR world. Serveral products have tried and Ive tried them, but its just not there, yet.
It's like I said in the video: it's great tech but not for everyone. We all have our preferences. Thanks for bringing your thoughts and your own experience to this discussion.
What PC setup are you running and which impact does VR have to the FPS at DCS? I‘m using a RTX2070 at 3440x1440 resolution and medium Settings for smooth FPS. In case of which performance is needed, could VR be compared to a 4K resolution? Then I would need to upgrade my GPU first.
It's harder to get a good resolution with VR. You'll need a monster computer to be able to achieve something similar to 4K. It's a tradeoff. But one I'm glad to do really. I have an i9, RTX3080, 32GB of 4,000Mhz RAM and SSD drives. I get good performance in DCS. I can't complain, really. It's not stellar but it's comfortable and stable.
I have hp reverb g2 and faceTrackNOIR. Although I feel using VR with MSFS is very immersive, I still choose faceTrackNOIR as my daily option because VR headset is still too heavy, too bright to burn my eye and screen effect is still affecting details compare with a 2K monitor.
HP Reverb G2 too bright? That's a first, I think I read somewhere it's around 150 nits, so it's comparable to standard monitors. Maybe it's the software that's the issue compensating for the lack of brightness in VR headsets. Do you have brightness issues in other titles?
@@dtrjones Have some. And feel my eye become dry after playing about 30 mins. I am looking for method for adjusting the brightness freely when I feel too bright.
@@BlueSkyway Well if it's dry eyes, I've not heard that comes from the brightness. More likely you are straining and not relaxed looking at the screen because it was not fitted correctly or has moved during use. The net result of all this straining is a lack of blinking which is probably the real cause of dry eyes. I would recommend using glasses or contacts in VR if you need them, if you don't use glasses then maybe try VRCovers to get the lens closer to your eye, this offers a bigger sweet spot which can assist in comfort.
For it, it's the same, really. After you get used to using the controls, you pretty much use your tactile experience and know where things are (that's the whole concept behind a HOTAS system -- you don't need to look a it, just feel where the buttons, etc. are). It's harder if ou need to use your keyboard or other panels in front of you but, for the most control sets out there, at least the ones you tend to keep your hands on, and for me, it has been easy to deal with.
Great video. I’m really looking forward to one day getting VR setup. I’m not sure my current build would allow me to get the performance in DCS, but hopefully soon. I’m wondering since it would be difficult to use a keyboard, what do you use to help? Additional number pads, trackball, MFDs, etc?
Thank you, Sim! I hope you manage to get it to it soon. It's an amazing experience. It changes our simming dramatically. I do use a keyboard (I look through the space between the nose and the headset when needed) but I mostly use my controls (I use helicopter replica controls) and the mouse to click around the virtual cockpit. You can add anything you feel like you need and keep it close to your hands. You'll get used to it over time.
Every essential keyboard key can be mapped to a joystick and throttle button HOTAS or HOCAS depending on what you fly plane or heli,I also have my keyboard close and peak under my VR by looking down.
The same way you do without head tracking! With the mouse! The only difference is the fact that you need to keep your head still otherwise your image will be all over the place :D
Beware : caricature ! Between the obligation to open your a** to Facebook/ Meta for one setup, of pay about 600+$ mimima just for a good headset, plus minima 1000$ for the graphic card due to pandemic prices, the fact that it is mostly very uncomfy wearing those things, that they are heavy, that most people will have motion sickness (well not me happily !), that you have to configure a specific "external world setup" for each and every game each and every time, that the setup is taking quite some time, that most headset have a very unpleasaént drift tendancy, that 80% of the Vr apps are not optimised (both on perfs and useability/ UI/ gameplay/ interactions etc), I think there are good explanations on why Vr is not reaching more than 4% of the installed parc ! I must insist, Vr is GREAT and I loved each and every time I've been using it, BUT it is higly unmatured, niched, not even really understood by developpers who most of the time "slap" a Vr mode on a non-Vr experience etc. I feel like even after all those years, decades already, it is still very raw and need more cooking. The fact that my TrackIR setup is a lot more matrure allows for more useability for me. but yes, flat screens are... Flat...
You have several options on the market that don't require a Meta account. Everything else is a tradeoff, yes. Just like with any technology that is evolving. You're right: it's still in early stages. But I think it's mature enough to enjoy it. Like I mention in the video, not everyone will like it.
Are you team VR or team Headtracking??? Let us know!
team VR :D
Former head tracker, VR convert.
I've been using a home built headtracker, it makes me feel like a drunken bobble head. I'm going vr and don't think I'll go back.
@@nategoodwin3329 you won’t be able to, I guarantee it.
Headtracking opened the SIM World for me for more than a decade. Never thought this would change. But since I used VR for the first time I now cannot go backwards and I only fly in VR. VR changed everything...
It costs a lot but it is worth it if flightsimulation is your passion
Agreed. It's hard to go back once you start using VR.
VR has changed the game for me. I used to use OpenTrack coupled with a XBox Kinect camera for head tracking. It worked great, but accuracy in landing with both fixed and rotary wing aircraft has dramatically increased for me in VR. I used to really struggle with aerial refueling with just head tracking, and it's almost too easy with VR.
I change to two years ago and will never go back its next level.
Long time VR flight simmer. Would never look back, has completely changed simming for me. I personally never fly on a monitor anymore .. it just doesn't feel like really "flying" to me. I fly with a lot of other flight simmers and I've only known one or two who've gone back from VR. For the majority it's a one way trip.
VR is the best thing that happened to simulators. depth perception can help you judge your size relative to space like landing pods or other tight spaces you are required to land through, it was never that easy for me to land a helicopter until i got into VR.
Focal accommodation is really needed for VR for long term comfort and a more natural experience, while for AR it's either not as important or is even a negative. We are a ways off from getting that, though, as only Hololens 2 and IVAS are using lasers on released products so far, you need lasers to do the best type of voxel focal length changing, and even these two aforementioned designs are not doing per-voxel focal accommodation. HL2 is good enough for B2B AR, but while IVAS is more advanced, it's military hardware and restricted. Maybe in a few tech generations like IVAS V3 will lead to a consumer product that can also do focal accommodating VR for home sims. In the meantime, IMO the other thing that current VR headsets are not doing right is the central overlap of your FOV for the limited stereoscopic effect you currently get.
It's kinda great, I flew my sims almost entirely in VR for 3-4 years, but now switched back to the monitor + TrackIR. Performance, visual fidelity and convenience are key words here. Don't get me wrong VR is cool, and can help you to train certain skills, but after several years it becomes annoying that one must tweak settings of your favourite sims after every update, and visual artefacts (stuttering, distortions) become a bit too much to glance over. So for me at the moment, it's kinda cool to hop in VR from time to time, but not really essential to enjoy my sims.
i can understand that. Thanks for pitching in. I love hearing about your experiences with different ways of simming.
I’m in exactly the same place as Kimmo. Your video helps, thanks man.👍
Oh, face plant “that never happened” good one 🤣😂🤣😂😂
I'm glad the video helped you.
And nope! Never happened :P
3090 with G2 for a year here. Never want to go back. Esp for Heli flying But also Iracing.
Incredible to experience simming in VR. DCS World on the original Rift was my first experience flying in VR and it absolutely blew me away. I fly MSFS exclusively in VR now on my HP Reverb G2 and it's so incredible. Going back is simply not an option. I can understand perhaps ppl who fly airliners might stick to a desktop but for helicopters and small GA planes, VR is made for this and MSFS is a fantastic title to explore too as the landscape is so rich it makes VR bush flying a complete joy.
I’m not sure if you mentioned, or maybe I didn’t pick up on it, but another major factor with VR, everything you are looking at is 1:1 like it would be in the real world. This means, the cyclic, or the Avi tab or the gauge all look life size.
With a monitor, to get a true reality scale, it depends on the side and how far it is from your eyes. With VR, it always just looks right.
The depth perception alone is more than worth it. Especially when doing AAR in a flight sim. First time i tried it in the F-18 instinctively reached for the towel bar (launch hold on) and smacked my head on the desk. Depending were you live get it from Amazon you get 30 days to try it before you need to keep it or send it back
Are we accident prone? :D
Before I bought my first real VR headset, I got one of those cheap phone-headsets for like 10$ and watched a few 3D videos on youtube, like DCS filmed in stereo-optic. That gave me a great sense of what proper VR would be like, and if it worked for me.
Not yet, but considering VR, HP Reverb v2. My only "problem" is the flight time, without vr on long flights I just leave it running, with vr its probably more troublesome to just leave it running? Glad to know you're making YT content, subscribed.
Hey Bruno thanks!
You could always turn the headset off but turning the set on and off could eventually cause issues with the sim and crash it. Not that it could do that all the time but there's always that risk.
VR and I can't go back !
And it's even more important for helicopter sim than planes IMHO...
I agree. I think simming is the epitome of the use of VR and helicopters are very particular and gain more from it. Perhaps bush flying in general as well!
I have both and whilst I much prefer VR for the visual side of things I'm still too much of a noob to flying and sometimes need to use my keyboard and mouse which is very difficult with the headset on.
Once I have managed to map all the essential buttons to my controllers(Warthog) and then got the muscle memory to find said buttons I'm sure it'll be sheer joy for emersion.
That's still the downside of VR. Fortunately, the stuff I fly is easy enough for me to use the virtual cockpit and a few buttons :)
The only thing missing in VR now is a proper hand-tracking system like LeapMotion if they can just perfect that then throw in some haptics in there and that would be awesome.
I have to say I have mixed feelings about that. I love t he technology and it's handy (no pun intended) but it may require you to have a bigger clear area in front of you so you can lean and "touch" the panels.
But yea, that would be a big step towards immersion.
Maybe I buy Pointctrl for DCS some day
@@renefeijen5916 I was thinking about that as well when I replied to you. Mmmmm... 🤔
This was very helpful. Thank you. 🙏
I'm glad you found it useful. Thank you very much for watching, Richard.
I have a set of VR glasses sitting on the shelf and never use them (anymore). I used it primarily for racing. I flew a little in DCS and X-plane with them too. The immersion is 100%. It's like you explained, you can't really describe it. You are just inside the cockpit flying or driving at Spa. It does step up your abilities... EXCEPT for eyes and fingers. If you are "aged" or wear glasses, focusing on details was always a nuisance. Of course the big picture was easy, but having to read details on gages... (for me) awful. The other issue is manipulating knobs & dials inside the car or cockpit. Some things are a ton easier by hitting an F key - versus having to memorize a ton of button mappings. The immersion is so good, that you just want to reach over and flip the switch - but you can't. That broke the immersion for me.
Yeah I can understand that. All we can do is try to adapt. It works better for some folks than for others. I'm sorry it doesn't for you :(
Usually use my Oculus Quest 2 VR for all flight though does struggle in xplane 11 zibo 737 due for system and Gpu upgrade,the DCS AH64D is unplayable in VR for me due to lag at present so out with the trusty trackir,use VR for all other DCS modules and ❤️ it.
It's been my experience that once people try VR with flight sims, they can't go back to 2d. It's doubly true with Helicopters, where judging where you are in space is so much more important. You will double your control skill in helis by going to VR. Hovering becomes simple because you can sense where you are and where you are drifting.
That's correct! Everything becomes easier to judge when using VR! It's a huge help for any simmer but especially for virtual helicopter pilots.
One day I hope to have Tobii5 AND VR.
As of today I use Track IR for helicopter flying. Other fixed wing aircraft I just use the monitor. I do intend to get VR but while my GPU is VR capable I would prefer to upgrade it first. So VR is likely in the not so distant future.
I use my Q2 in VR in MSFS, but need access to keyboard and streamdeck for DCS, so I use TrackIR for that.
#TeamVR
For me i never want to go back to Desktop and Track IR again.
But for just trying it out, in Germany you can rent Vr Headsets to test them.
Depends. I tend to like head tracking when learning a new module as Im always watching videos on startup and weapons system. VR brings a sense of "being there" but if you got a system that just barely can run it, it can be headache or sickness inducing. Air to Air stuff VR is great, not so much for AG. For me its mixed cause I have vision issues, and sensitive to refreash rate issues. Getting a updated pc has helped with motion sickness but with DCS being the issue over hardware, I can play maybe an hour before I have to stop in VR. Head tracking on a 60 inch monitor, Ive played 8 hours straight. Also you can recreate a cockpit in the "real world" Sure its expensive (simming is in general) , but one thing that holds me back in VR is hand tracking. It would be great to have a real buttons and switches cockpit (in the process of doing an f18 1:1 cockpit) and it translate in the VR where you can see your hands in the VR world. Serveral products have tried and Ive tried them, but its just not there, yet.
It's like I said in the video: it's great tech but not for everyone. We all have our preferences. Thanks for bringing your thoughts and your own experience to this discussion.
Team VR!
What PC setup are you running and which impact does VR have to the FPS at DCS? I‘m using a RTX2070 at 3440x1440 resolution and medium Settings for smooth FPS. In case of which performance is needed, could VR be compared to a 4K resolution? Then I would need to upgrade my GPU first.
It's harder to get a good resolution with VR. You'll need a monster computer to be able to achieve something similar to 4K.
It's a tradeoff. But one I'm glad to do really.
I have an i9, RTX3080, 32GB of 4,000Mhz RAM and SSD drives. I get good performance in DCS. I can't complain, really. It's not stellar but it's comfortable and stable.
I have hp reverb g2 and faceTrackNOIR. Although I feel using VR with MSFS is very immersive, I still choose faceTrackNOIR as my daily option because VR headset is still too heavy, too bright to burn my eye and screen effect is still affecting details compare with a 2K monitor.
HP Reverb G2 too bright? That's a first, I think I read somewhere it's around 150 nits, so it's comparable to standard monitors. Maybe it's the software that's the issue compensating for the lack of brightness in VR headsets. Do you have brightness issues in other titles?
@@dtrjones Have some. And feel my eye become dry after playing about 30 mins. I am looking for method for adjusting the brightness freely when I feel too bright.
@@BlueSkyway Well if it's dry eyes, I've not heard that comes from the brightness. More likely you are straining and not relaxed looking at the screen because it was not fitted correctly or has moved during use. The net result of all this straining is a lack of blinking which is probably the real cause of dry eyes. I would recommend using glasses or contacts in VR if you need them, if you don't use glasses then maybe try VRCovers to get the lens closer to your eye, this offers a bigger sweet spot which can assist in comfort.
@@dtrjones I am using already
Can anyone share their experience of using throttle, yoke and accessories in VR? I would assume it's much harder to figure out what you're pressing
For it, it's the same, really. After you get used to using the controls, you pretty much use your tactile experience and know where things are (that's the whole concept behind a HOTAS system -- you don't need to look a it, just feel where the buttons, etc. are).
It's harder if ou need to use your keyboard or other panels in front of you but, for the most control sets out there, at least the ones you tend to keep your hands on, and for me, it has been easy to deal with.
Great video. I’m really looking forward to one day getting VR setup. I’m not sure my current build would allow me to get the performance in DCS, but hopefully soon.
I’m wondering since it would be difficult to use a keyboard, what do you use to help? Additional number pads, trackball, MFDs, etc?
Thank you, Sim! I hope you manage to get it to it soon. It's an amazing experience. It changes our simming dramatically.
I do use a keyboard (I look through the space between the nose and the headset when needed) but I mostly use my controls (I use helicopter replica controls) and the mouse to click around the virtual cockpit.
You can add anything you feel like you need and keep it close to your hands. You'll get used to it over time.
Every essential keyboard key can be mapped to a joystick and throttle button HOTAS or HOCAS depending on what you fly plane or heli,I also have my keyboard close and peak under my VR by looking down.
@@Rich6270 I didn't realize you could see under the googles. That could make things handy, for sure.
How do I click thing using head tracking
The same way you do without head tracking! With the mouse! The only difference is the fact that you need to keep your head still otherwise your image will be all over the place :D
VR and head tracking see to be not existent for MacOS.
Beware : caricature !
Between the obligation to open your a** to Facebook/ Meta for one setup, of pay about 600+$ mimima just for a good headset, plus minima 1000$ for the graphic card due to pandemic prices, the fact that it is mostly very uncomfy wearing those things, that they are heavy, that most people will have motion sickness (well not me happily !), that you have to configure a specific "external world setup" for each and every game each and every time, that the setup is taking quite some time, that most headset have a very unpleasaént drift tendancy, that 80% of the Vr apps are not optimised (both on perfs and useability/ UI/ gameplay/ interactions etc), I think there are good explanations on why Vr is not reaching more than 4% of the installed parc !
I must insist, Vr is GREAT and I loved each and every time I've been using it, BUT it is higly unmatured, niched, not even really understood by developpers who most of the time "slap" a Vr mode on a non-Vr experience etc. I feel like even after all those years, decades already, it is still very raw and need more cooking. The fact that my TrackIR setup is a lot more matrure allows for more useability for me. but yes, flat screens are... Flat...
You have several options on the market that don't require a Meta account.
Everything else is a tradeoff, yes. Just like with any technology that is evolving. You're right: it's still in early stages. But I think it's mature enough to enjoy it.
Like I mention in the video, not everyone will like it.