COFFEE OPINION - In Defense Of The Dark Roast
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- čas přidán 23. 02. 2023
- There is one four letter word that can get many modern-day, third wave baristas all up in their feelings, and that is dark. The lowly dark roast, although it has been the historical standard in coffee for decades, has found itself in a bit of a public relations fiasco in the current state of specialty coffee.
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#coffee #darkroast #sprometheus
Twisted by the dark roast, young Sprometheus has become. 😁
Haha I tried to think of an equally good and topical Star Wars gone coffee quote but I couldn’t. I applaud you.
Did you ever hear of the tragedy of Dark Roastus the Wise? ...I thought not. It's not the story the Baristas would tell you...
Brilliant!
XD
This is a great discussion to have. I actually think the vast majority of consumers, including myself, prefer medium to darker roasts most of the time. The first thing in the morning, I don't want an overly complex acidic coffee. I just want a smooth, full bodied cup that complements whatever I'm having for breakfast.
I’m in this camp too!
Exactly my thought. I had to literally run around in the morning when light roasted coffee is the choice 😄 A Medium to darker roast full bodies/chocolatey coffee is very pleasant both in taste and LITERALLY in action lol
Couldn't agree more
💯
Agree. Love the taste of medium-dark/dark roasts, not to mention the low acidity.
I'm a home coffee roaster, and "Lack of dark roasts done well" is totally right. I love a good quality roast across the board, and most recently (due to cold weather and a lack of precision in my technique with my outdoor roasting set-up) I "overroasted" some Indian beans and was left with a disappointing oily mess... until I tasted them. I had rushed the roast so much that by the time the outside was noticeably dark, the inside had reached caramelly-toasted marshmallow perfection and it was some of the best coffee I'd ever roasted. Thinking it was some kind of anomaly, I used a similar method but stopped short to allow for a medium roast on my next batch and what I had is a flatter, far more boring and slightly grassy cup. Technique is everything (and luck apparently lol). Great content, thanks!
100% it’s not easy to track a good one down, and even Starbucks Reserve is hit or miss. But when you get one it just hits. And you don’t lose all the character of the coffee either. The best dark roast I’ve ever had was a home roasted Ethiopia natural and it tasted like a dark chocolate covered cherry. Thanks for your comment and for watching! Cheers
I thought I was odd, because I'm really not a fan of strong fruity flavoured coffee. I'm lucky that the local roaster near me is well known for doing dark roasts well... very well. Smooth, full-bodied, chocolatey, nutty flavours without that old-time bitterness.
IMO it isn’t easy to “track one down” in the US because our coffee roasters cater to a (mostly) one-size-fits-all pour over/filter/espresso market, with espresso being the missing word in the description for most roasters. In Europe, it is the other way around (except in far north, Sweden, Denmark), where espresso is king (though there are efforts by some to change that) and most roasters are producing beans with the espresso results first on their list. There is also a much longer tradition of “miscela”, creating blends from various beans to create a flavor proflie, and there is a tradition of roasting (as in skill) that is somewhat lacking in the US, at least as it applies to making coffee for espresso. If you visit the home-barista forum, you’ll see that there are quite a few there who agree with me on this.
@@2deparrish What? The US has some phenomenal roasters that do dark roasts well. George Howell, Onyx, Blue Bottle, Intelligentsia, Counter Culture, Oddly Correct, Black and White... I could go on. We have some of the world's best roasters. So does Europe, of course.
@@error.418 I've tried virtually all the roaster you mention above. They don't compete with the best Italian roasters, and they're still mostly going for something which works okay as a pour over. I've had good (not great) shots from many you listed, and there are many fans on home-barista forum, where I'm a member. But these roasters are mainly known now for their third wave offerings. Not knocking what they offer, but they mostly fall short in traditional Italian roast style (both Northern and Southern Italian. If you don't agree, that either isn't your preference, or you haven't had the best Italian coffee.
As lifelong a dark roast drinker, I would occasionally sample light roast coffees from time to time. I always found them interesting, “huh, it does taste like melon” but they just were not to my liking. It didn’t “taste like coffee.” To me.
A couple years ago I finally had a light roast espresso I truly enjoyed. It was juicy, vibrant and citrusy. Delicious. It helped that I went into it thinking of it as a completely different drink, and I still feel that way.
I still love the traditional med-dark roast americanos I’ve been drinking for years, starting every day with them on a Londinium lever, but now I also love light roasts, as straight espresso, a refreshing afternoon pick me up. There’s room for both, obviously, but too often there is a level derisive hostility on both sides, I think that needs to end.
I drink light and darker toasts. I prefer med and dark roasts but I'm always struggling with lighter roasts. I like fruity aspect of it but higher level of acidity keeps annoying me.
@@proudbacteria1373 me too
One issue that I think consistently comes up when people talk about dark roasts is that they encompass a wide range of roast levels, including super oily/"burnt" tasting roasts (which some people love in their own right for smokey and bitter qualities), and roasts that are just a bit over medium with minimal oiliness. The difference in flavor between those two extremes is huge, and it feels like we need to distinguish between those when referring to dark roasts. Some people will say "medium-dark" to refer to the lighter side of dark roasts, but it seems like they're often lumped together.
It’s funny. This reminds me so much of my experience with “specialty beer.” AKA Craft Beer. My love of such beer started in the late ‘80s, before it was a thing. Over the last 10-15 years, craft beer has been more and more about bigger and bolder flavours. And for at least the first 5 of those years, so was I. Most craft brewers ignored pale lagers in the same way today’s specialty coffee roasters ignore dark roasts. And for the same reason. Pale lagers representing to beer what dark roast represents to specialty coffee: at best the mediocre or worst, cheap junk. Pale lager, to craft brewing, equals Budweiser. And when done, most roasters and brewers make dark roast and pale lager as a pleasing-to-the-masses money maker. Maybe also hoping the product will be a gateway to “the better stuff”. But the last 5-10 years has seen a fatiguing of my palette. I still love a good over the top IPA, super earthy Trappist, or a super sour Oud Bruin; but only in small doses. And in addition I more and more find myself preferring the drinkability of a quality pale lager or ale. With balance, and wonderfully subtle and delicate flavours. Especially the Lagers of Bohemia and Bitters of the UK. I do still keep a bag of a good supermarket coffee - labelled as a medium, but pretty dark - that I like to use for milk drinks and the occasional moka pot, after dinner pick me up. With sugar…. But using $50/lb coffee for a cappuccino is to me like using a $100 single malt to make a Rusty Nail.
Thanks for the insight into the beer world. I’d venture to guess there are similarities like that in wine and most other F&B things as well. I get you though, I definitely experience palate fatigue with all the crazy processed, light roast coffees and a more developed, even dark roast makes for a perfect break.
This is very interesting but there's one key difference, lighter roasted coffee are supposed to make the cup more drinkable than dark roasts, especially without milk or sugar.
I enjoy dark roasts done well, but even the good ones can be a bit overwhelming to drink black, so I only enjoy them from time to time.
But I guess some people don't like the intense acidity and would rather tolerate the higher bitterness. It's tricky bcs both the new trend and the old way can be overwhelming in different ways.
Totally agree, the beer scene is extremely trendy and sensitive to changes, Black IPA what even was that ?
For me a light roast can work as aero press or pour over, but espresso they are way to hard to extract well.
A medium roast I way less prone to channeling and other defects.
With that said a German Hefeweisse a Belgian Sour, or an American styled double IPA I'm all in 😎
I can related to all of you wrote. I buy cheaper dark roast, exclusively for cappuccino.
@@JimJakubJames Have you tried Cortados? At the 1:1 ratio with milk the coffee is still able to show its flavours and I quite like that. Even 2:1. But much beyond that I agree that any subtle notes are largely lost. I like darker roasts for that, a good full city blend can be great in a cappucino.
The end came for me when the tasting notes at a light roast shop in Portland said: "Hints of citrus, star anise & coffee".
Exactly! After drinking a lot of third wave coffee (e.g. The Barn), I kind of got tired of the super fruity taste and slowly drifted towards more darker roasts. I now currently drink dark roasts exclusively and they also help a lot with my GERD as they are easier on the stomach in my opinion.
Palate fatigue is real for sure. And that’s one of the aspects that pushed to me reconsider dark roasts. I think it’s a pretty common path for those who are fans of acidic light roasts, but reach a point where they need something else to break it up.
Berlin resident Here :) had too much of "the barn" as well. Stopped completely with medium to light roasts and my New search for quality coffee begins with the upper end of medium now. Occasionally a lighter medium for filter :)
This where I'm at currently...
Agree 💯.
I love milk drinks, and I love dark roasts. Until now I couldn't find two specialty dark roasts with identical flavor profiles. Finding the perfect one for making amazing cappuccinos is an ongoing quest of mine.
Thanks Spro for giving this niche topic a spotlight. Every since I got into espresso, I exclusively drank dark roasts and it was a really bumpy road to follow. The one problem you mentioned (most roasters have several light to medium roasts but only one dark) is okay for me. If I don't like their roast, I can just switch the roaster. I also don't care about that people generally think dark roasts are worse.
The real challenge for me was to learn everything on how to brew espresso from a perspective of getting the most out of light roasts and then realizing that I have to adapt some rules and perceptions to my beans. I feel like 90% of the content on CZcams and the internet nowdays, from what is the best grinder to what temp surfing method on my GCP I should use and so on is almost always for lighter roasts. Got used to it now, but sometimes it's still really frustrating.
You’re welcome, glad to chat about this and happy to see so many in the comments as well.
I do think there is a lack of information on brewing and getting g the most out of darker roasted beans, maybe that’s an angle I should look into for a future video.
@@Sprometheus Yes please!
This is one of your best videos! Very informative and candid. Thank you!
Thanks Andrew. I’m trying to work off script a little more, it’s a struggle after years and years of meticulous planning. But expect to see more of these moving forward. Perhaps a podcast as well.
THIS!!!! Love this video and support this conversation that needs to happen more and more.
I have a soft spot for a dark roast espresso
The real problem with darker roasts for me isn't about the taste but that it gums up all the equipment, especially the grinder.
That’s been an issue I’ve had with them as well. My best rec is to avoid the ones roasted to a point of overly oily. Starbucks Reserve isn’t too oily, and the Bird Rock Coffee Roasters French Roast is an ideal level for specialty dark roasts. A single O Guatemala and had those classic darker roast flavors but no gummed up machines and I didn’t need to take apart and clean my grinder out after.
@@Sprometheus nevertheless all the darker roast tend to taste similarly . that is the problem i see. you said it in the video. all big companies tend to roast darker to have secured an even roast and a constant taste. but it would be nice for some espressos
Yes, as roasts get darker you have to be careful with the oils. They will also lose their flavors faster in storage or with exposure to oxygen. But a well (not over) roasted dark roast of high quality single origin brewed in its prime is sublime. Whereas a light roast can evoke the reaction in me of "Is this coffee, or tea?".
Yes! I’ve had the same problem. That’s one of the reasons I started moving away from the dark roasts even though I rather liked them.
sPrometheus makes an interesting observation; no beans are greasier than the basic Starbucks roast. Maybe I’ll give the darker roasts (but not too dark) another try (I’m still going to play it safe and restock on Urnex Grindz).
This video also reminds me to “beware the current orthodoxy”!
@@TomJones-tx7pb agreed! I am not a fan of the tea taste trend... Much prefer a well done dark roast and skip the vegetable tea taste...
I really appreciate you speaking out on this. I have in the past few months circled around back to darker roasts as my daily drinks because to me they are Perfect Comfort Food. I just need a good reliably tasty and well rounded cup these days to help with de-stressing. So I was very happy to have discovered a local 3rd wave specialty roaster who isn't afraid to provide "classic roasts" and that's pretty well all I've been ordering from them lately. I still grab a bag of light or medium light single-origin from them now and then for variety.
My personal ideal comfort cup then is a Propeller dark roast blend (Rivet), ground with Vario+ flat ceramic burrs, and brewed with the Hario Switch. It has so much body the stir spoon almost stands up by itself. And I'm sure it would make modern baristas crazy. I have no guilt or remorse. 🙂
This video conviced me to switch my next order to a dark roast. As someone who usually drinks lighter ethiopians, I am always pleasantly surprised by how easy it is to dial in a darker roast. With the rise of flat burr consumer grinders, I'm not sure if dark roasts will be popular among enthusiasts but since conical burrs are the most popular home grinders I think it is important to diversify and try out new coffees even the ones we grew up drinking before this hobby.
I’m glad to hear you’ve been inspired to give a dark roast a chance. Drop that brew temp to around 185-190, and remember it takes less to extract a dark roast so shorter times or yields could help you get the most out of it.
I always felt a little shame admitting that I absolutely love dark roasts especially for espresso
I think its high time to let go of that shame.
Same, and even more "embarrassing": I would prefer a Starbucks espresso to a super acidic light/medium roast from a trendy third wave shop.
@@calisson47 dude same
Same 😄
@@calisson47 I love dark roasts - but Starbucks coffee is really just disgusting.
I totally agree. The whole reason i got into specialty coffee was because I fell in love with the darker roasts. But as I fell deeper down the rabbit hole I was submerged in a culture of light roasts. Even to this day I wish there was better availability to specialty dark as i agree if we took high quality ingredient and roasted with care it would be epic. You have a huge knowledge of roasting and coffee, you should fill the market gap man, I would buy it for sure 👊🏾
thank you for this video, it took me a year to get my dad to appreciate my coffee hobby ( Vietnamese, AeroPress, espresso, Turkish and others) , once I proved that there is coffee outside of Folgers drip he wanted a new style of coffee every visit, it's nice to share it with him and he appreciates the different tastes of darker or lighter roasts, now to get him off the 15 dollar Jim Beam.. :D
Great perspective, thanks for sharing!
I feel this on so many levels. Thank you for this video! As someone who truly appreciates the flavors of traditional Neapolitan coffee, I have extreme difficulties finding dark Neapolitan roasts. It's almost impossible, even though I live in Berlin with its reputation as a thriving hub of third wave coffee culture. It's very unfortunate because I know what a wonderful chocolatey syrup one could drink if one didn't have to rely on months-old roasts that have to be imported from Italy. Therefore, I really thank you for this video and I appreciate your efforts in addressing this problem. It would be great if it will have even a tiny impact and that in a few years, I will no longer be looked at like a crazy person when I go hopefully into a roastery and say that their darkest roast is still too light for me.
Thank you for watching and the thoughtful comment. I think that darker roasts will become more popular as most trends are cyclical and roasting dark is a skill in itself; and one that is rare. So people will be interested in getting into it. And I’m with you. Finding a proper dark roast locally even in the US is difficult as even Starbucks Reserve can be hit or miss.
Agree. I'm from Berlin and now I live in Japan where I feel like the specialty scene is a little more open to dark roast. Might have to do with the fact that older people prefer the bitter and "traditional" coffee flavour. Definitely drink what you want to and if the barista in the cafe judges you for that, well there are many many other cafes one can go to
@GME Inc: Have you tried Bar Italia from Andraschko? This was my staple and go to italian roast coffee for a long time here in Berlin. But it’s too roasty for me now that my palate has adapted more to lighter roasts.
If you love Neapolitan roasted coffee, try Saka Caffe. Their Classic bar blend is, in my opinion, the best one out there! No smoky, ashy aromas. Just beautiful chocolate, caramel and nutty aromas. Look them up. They predominantly ship outside of Italy since they can’t and won’t try to compete with Lavazza, Kimbo etc. These guys are living proof that not all dark roasts are bad.
@@Sprometheus I suggest you visit home-barista forum (maybe you’re a member already and I don’t know your handle?). LOTS of good suggestions for darker roasts there.
dark lacks the acidity ... which is why I like it
I love dark roast. Both flavor,but also since I use a manual ROK Espresso machine. The temperature control lends towards a dark roast due to the lower temperature. I use Atlas because they provide Single Origin from various countries.
Absolutely. Manual machines and dark roasts are a proper match. The slow but consistent drop in temp but an easier to extract dark roast can create some beautifully caramelized, sweet and balanced cups.
Thank you for putting yourself out there to say *exactly* what some of us have been thinking! I've found a couple that were like drinking dark chocolate-covered marzipan or mandarin and I'm pretty sure more would warm to darker roasts if we saw more of this level of care and intent applied across the board.
A dark roasted Bali Blue Moon blew my mind and revived my love for dark roast.
There's a roaster on the UK who in my opinion do a great dark roast. Flavours of tobacco and dark chocolate. It's almost like a desert in coffee form. Done right dark roasts are amazing. Too many 3rs wave people for me are closed minded to other experiences.
I’m curious which roaster / coffee that is? Thanks
Very nice insight on the Specialty Coffee culture! I agree with the lack of focus that specialty coffee industry have on darker roasts, mostly being the 'dark roast = bad' attitude instead of thinking why and/or making good dark roasts. Recently rediscovered Passalaqua Harem Ground Coffee, and been loving it in my Mokapot (sometimes with milk) when I'm not in the mood for my usual pourover drinks.
I’m still watching the ads, but this is a thumbs up. I never drink dark roast, but very interested in the story. Thank you sir.
I really like dark roasts. I find them easier to brew than lighter roasts and I enjoy the flavor. But I also have severely diminished ability to taste bitter, so that may be part of it.
Haha well that could help, but they are more forgiving and easier to extract. Just drop the temp, shorter the brew time a little bit and bam, all set.
100% agree. Lately there’s been so much hate on the dark roast, but when roasted AND brewed right, they’re delicious! And a different “delicious” than a light/medium roast coffee. You nailed it with the comment about dark roasts not done right.
Good video, and great thoughts. A great roaster example of what you’re talking is Counter Culture Coffee out of Durham, NC. They have a couple of darker roasts that they aimed to still have a good flavor profile. From my own brewing, they succeeded.
I am a big fan of dark roasts and my local and another favourite roaster both absolutely do a fantastic job of roasting them.
It reminds me of a few years ago, I'd walk into a craft beer bar and ask if they had any dark beer and I'd get that "look" from the person behind the great big long row of IPAs on tap.
Much like when I kept giving my friends scotch ales and porters "Seriously, just try it", people who automatically turn away from dark roasts need to seek out a really good one, dial it in and "just try it".
Thank you so SPrometheus, for once again going against the grain and against the default narrative, much needed in the coffee industry and third wave specifically. For one thing, I think it’s important to serve people what they enjoy, as long as it’s done excellent. Everyone’s Subjective taste preference is equally valid. As you mentioned, I asked my roaster to do a dark roast for us, One that’s not black and as little oil as possible. So it doesn’t gum up the equipment, a valid criticism of oily dark roast. (Another problem with the Surface oil is that it goes rancid faster, so it needs to be stored very carefully and probably used more quickly than non-oily coffee).There is such a thing as pleasant bitterness, and although some people consider any smoky or roasts flavor to be a defect, many people enjoy these flavors. In my opinion, the line is crossed when it’s burnt or ashy tasting.
Great video, and you've really opened my eyes... But maybe not in the way you think.
I love good coffee. I "grew up" drinking Starbucks, and back in 1989 I found it so much superior to the other coffee available. It's not the best coffee I've ever had, but for decades it was the best that was broadly available (and affordable).
Your video helped me realize I'm a second wave native. As much as I love good coffee and take care to brew the best cup I can, dark roasts became a foundational part of my palette. In fact, I also like dark chocolate and high IBU beer.
I didn't even realize there was a third wave until this video. Yes, I know coffee culture and techniques have been advancing, and I've improved my own brewing process. But never heard it described as a "third wave" and honestly it helps me understand some things. Like, why even Starbucks doesn't have dark roast available in the afternoons any more. (yes, I do make them do a pour over).
The net of it is this: our palettes develop over time -- they evolve. If your starting point is dark roast, you will likely experience it differently than someone who came of age once dark was out of fashion. Years from now, dark may be trendy again, and coffee with lots of floral and citrus may be out.
After all, my dad drank PBR in the 1970s. I thought it was gross, and never understood it's resurrection 30+ years later. And now Helles is popular, and some of it is excellent. Even so, I'll usually prefer a west coast IPA. Every sip is tinged with the memories of those that came before it. So, too, with dark roast.
Of course, I encourage everyone to drink what they like. But your video helped me realize that the reasons I like dark roast probably include my history with it.
I went to the Helsinki Coffee Festival last spring and this very discussion stood out. There was a Finnish company, which I have forgotten the name of, intentionally dark roasting quality coffee. They had their own farms, a solid sustainability model and in general the core values you find standard in high quality roasters. They roasted dark to appeal to the general Finnish taste. Their whole goal was to fill the whole in the market you describe where there are people who want the quality and ethics but much prefer a traditional tasting cup. I think it's brilliant.
I recently purchased a Costa Rica black honey processed bean from mountain bird coffee and I realize that dark roasts are still one of my favorites to drink. And if more specialty coffee shops can just pour some of that same love they have for light roast into dark roast, then we could start changing people's perspective on dark roast.
Third wave's focus on terroir is kinda hard to achieve if you start roasting away the flavours that help in establishing said terroir, which is probably why most roasters just don't even bother. A coffee which is naturally chocolatey and nutty roasted to the border of medium/dark is absolutely wonderful for milk drinks though, especially during winter. It's a handy tool in one's coffee toolbox, and just straight up dismissing it is a bit bone-headed. Also my friends think the light roasts I prefer to drink absolutely suck in espresso form, so I always make sure I have some in house when I have friends over.
Yep people don't expect something fruity when they drink a coffee. That's why they feel strange about it. I think almost everyone started with nutty chocolaty coffee that are a little bit more complex and then moved on to the fruity stuff. That's certainly how I started my coffee journey.
I definitely get that, and the angle that dark roasts take away that terroir, and in some cases it’s true. Of course those chocolaty, nutty, beans make great medium to dark roasts, but there is something to be said for fruity naturals roasted dark. I’ve had a couple, and if it’s not too dark it can still carry the sweetness and deeper fruit flavors. It’s got the terroir still, just in a different angle. Having a darker roast on hand is essential for sure, same with a quality decaf. Maybe talking decaf will be my next opinion piece, haha.
@@Sprometheus Could be a great tie-in video when Mr Hoffmann's insanely huge decaf project drops. Decaf is for sure good to have as well. It's nice to have an espresso martini at 2 in the morning and being able to sleep well.
Definitely medium-dark roasts for me through a conical burr grinder and I only drink espresso & ristretto. Several years ago I had my first light roast doppio espresso at a cafe in Sydney. I couldn't relate to it actually being coffee as it was thin, rather acidic and really bright. It wasn't unpleasant, just so different to my preferred darker roast full body espresso that my wife and I really enjoy however I do periodically challenge my palate to experience some of the single origin lighter roasts at cafes however my wife would not have a bar of any coffee that was thin and fruity so only dark roasts for her. Probably should also mention that I'm 69yo so it will probably all make sense to you now. Many thanks Spro for your continuing excellent content. Cheers.
Literally laughed out loud at the last line of this video.
The pony boy? Been my standard video sign off for years.
I really like this video, and I think you're right. Occasionally. I buy some beans that are roasted just a bit darker than I was expecting. Actually, the most recent one was a Colombian roasted by Tim Wendelboe, and it is a nice surprise and I find that I have fun dialing in my brew with those beans.I don't always want a dark roast, but sometimes it's kind of nice.
But.... but.... but how do I let both friends and strangers know that I have a more advanced coffee palate and therefore am a superior human?
my go to whole beans are "The Amsterdam" from Joe Coffee in NYC. It's roasted Medium-Dark and pairs really nicely with milk drinks. Maybe I haven't looked hard enough, but I don't see a lot of roasters going for that midpoint between Medium and Dark, but It's my personal favorite.
@ Sprometheus I've been waiting for this video by a home barista for awhile now, and it's right on time: I recently had to accept that light roasts just aren't really much for me. (I keep a little bit in the freezer over time if I have a taste for it occasionally, but it's not a everyday kinda of thing for me. ) I love unique coffee notes, and acidity, but most lighter is to much like candy! Lol I prefer medium, medium-dark, and French roasted beans; thank you Spro for standing up for the darker guys!!! 😂😂😂
My favorite part of coffee is the variety of flavor. A quality dark roast can be an amazing experience and a huge difference from the fruit and floral notes of lighter roasts.
I was team light roast only for a long time, then I had a bit of self doubt on my home espresso ability. I grabbed some darker beans from a quality local shop to prove to myself that I could replicate it. I ended up learning a lot about temperature from that experience.
This video comes at an interesting time. I spent the majority of this past fall drinking darker roast coffee and thoroughly enjoying it. In fact, one of the coffees i drank was Onyx's Krampus, which to be honest is one of THE BEST coffees i have ever had. If it was available as a year round subscription, i would be on it permanently.
Right now i have four bags of light roast and i find myself still missing a cup of Krampus or Monarch, despite the fact that the espresso I've had in the last week has been the best espresso I've ever had (thank you Kyle Rowsell).
Thanks for the recommendation, I’ll have to try some of these out. I really love trying higher end roasts to compare against my own home roast attempts.
I drink Vivace Vita and Dolce exclusively. I’d love to see more roasters produce high-quality dark roasts. I love darker roasts and just don’t enjoy fruit flavors in my espresso and coffee, but that’s just my taste buds.
I agree with your statement. 3 years ago, when I got into coffee, it felt like dark roasted coffee us a sign of bad quality beans and you can only taste good beans ob a lighter roast.
I worked at a specialty roaster and cafe in Japan and they do a variety of roasts, from super light to dark. I had to taste all coffees almost every day for dialing in and getting a feel for the cup profile to explain to costumers. I found myself sometimes not liking the light roasts and preferring a dark roast. I kinda felt bad for that sometimes but also from working in the roastery cafe, I found out that many customers actually prefer the dark coffee.
And I kind of get it now. Especially in colder winter months, I longed for some heavier drinks, with milk and maybe some Suger in them and the dark roast works better then the light roast for that.
I still enjoy the sweet and clean cups I get from a light Ethiopian coffee, but having a dark roast with milk, cafe latte or some whipped cream, feels very comforting
I confess that I get coffee at grocery stores in between online orders and many "medium" roasts I get, usually the lightest I can find, are closer to dark roasts, so I still consume it every now and then.
excellent video. refreshing. one of my favorites of yours
I keep going back to medium dark roasts, but I don't know where to get them. have any suggestions @spromethius?
Well said.
I was shocked to see how many people don’t enjoy dark roasts. I genuinely enjoy brewing a good dark roast in my French press.
Yeah, I mean I think it’s a mixture of either not having had a good one, not knowing how to brew it properly, or even a little embarrassment that they enjoy it.
I have had very often dark roasted coffee for ten years in bar/cafe/restaurant, but this is probably because in Italy dark roast coffee is the choice for 80% of those places. It's a tradition and, a part for some rare occasion, it always tasted good. Sometimes burnt but that was often due to lack of properly cleaning the basket from previously extracted coffee. Rarely I had just bad coffee and usually it has been like called for, due to the low price of coffee in that specific place.
Since I became a home barista, I have always a bag of dark roasted coffee with me (sometimes from Naples, sometimes from Venice or Florence), I used it for the occasional afternoon ristretto and often for cappuccino/ flat white. But I also have a bag or two of medium roasted coffee - for espresso and filter.
I like dark roasted coffee and I like medium as well. The only thing I would say against dark roasted coffee is that it's better to avoid the oily beans, cause it can cause issues with the grinder. But I assume in the CZcams account of Sprometheus, that is shared knowledge already :)
As a newer coffee person just looking to make coffee at home the light medium and dark roast conversation is really a silly one in my opinion. All three can be great and bad and worrying about one being better seems like a waste of time. If you're looking to have something enjoyable why limit your options? It's like loving whiskey and saying the only good whiskey is rye, you're just missing out on good bourbon, Irish, or scotch. just my 2c
I think that’s a good perspective, especially being new to coffee. But like most things, when you come into it there’s often a lot of peer pressure to act cool, and agree with the sentiments of those seen as senior. And the interesting thing is, a lot of those who helped push the narrative of dark roasts being bad, don’t necessarily believe it. I don’t think I’ve met one coffee professional who doesn’t enjoy a dark roast in a greasy mug at a 24 diner.
I've personally been drinking majority dark roast for probably the last 10 years or so, just because my the local cafes I would visit mostly did dark roast. However only in the last year did I discover "specialty coffee" as an idea and the complexity of flavours that comes with lighter roasted coffee. I think dark roasted coffee certainly has its place in my regular rotation for milk drinks but when comes to enjoying a nice black filter coffee or espresso, I'd definitely take the light/medium roast.
Charbucks ruined dark roasts for me for several decades. Now I have found dark roasts done with more finesse, I love them again as I did in the 60s with my local specialty roaster.
Keeping an open mind is very useful for discovering new possibilities.
I live in Chile, and at least here, most specialty cafes serve medium/dark roasts, in fact, when trying to buy coffee here, roasters refer to their coffee as "medium roast", but in reality it's almost always medium/dark. I couple months ago, I got a couple bags from Square Mile in the UK, and even though they're not considered to roast that light, it's the lightest I've gotten (and I loved it). The reason I didn't drink coffee for many years was because of the bitterness of ultra dark, low quality beans, once specialty cafes opened -even with their medium dark roasts -, I finally started to get into coffee, since I could feel the flavor.
I had stayed away from the dark roast for a while. I recently got my first espresso machine and was holiday gifted some rather dark beans. Not wanting to waste them, I put them to work. Was very surprised at how much I liked the shots and lattes. When dialing in for the first time it was much more forgiving, especially when trying to learn the bottomless.
Most of the shots I pull wind up in cappuccinos, and chocolatey, caramel-y, nutty notes of a more-developed roast stand out beautifully.
There’s definitely also a perception that dark roast = burned to ash when so many that people encounter are overroasted. If in someone’s head dark roast = Folgers, yeah, they’re not gonna realize there’s more to explore that won’t have notes of shoe polish.
This is true. After years of drinking lighter, more acidic roasts in milk drinks I’ve come to enjoy it in some ways, but when I have a dark or even a decently developed medium in one I remember why it works so well.
That ash flavor is what many people like. Everyone wants different things and that's an important characteristic to many
@@veganpotterthevegan no… ash is gross. ‘Smoky’ or ‘roasty’ is not.
@Joshua Anderson I don't want anything to do with that flavor but I'm not talking about me. A lot of people love that taste. Just as plenty of people love very very bitter or very very sour flavors for food and drink
Starbucks has more or less created the perception of dark roast=ashy. Although, to be fair, they did introduce a “blonde roast”, and their Reserve offerings can be pretty good and definitely not over-roasted. But their “everyday” roast is way too dark but is obviously designed to hide but provide body to their numerous sugary offerings :).
I agree that dark roast can be amazing. I only drink dark roast because every other roast upsets my stomach. I have tried so many upscale, specialty and so on and so forth low, medium and
medium- dark roasts I lost count. Every single one makes me sick to my stomach and I end up throwing it away. So for me, dark roast is the only way to go.
Personally enjoy dark roasts especially for espresso. I find that they tend to lean towards more chocolatey and nutty flavor notes. I like light/medium roasts for my pour over brews. Love that you brought this topic up!
You missed an important point: temperature. Dark+Hot = a telltale, generic burned flavor. Early home espresso machines didn’t allow temperature control, and people didn’t necessarily turn their PIDs low enough for dark roasts, so the results were poor. Medium and light roasts work better with “typical” temps.
My wife roasts with a Behmor, which can be hard to control, so some roasts are darker than I would like. After learning to be bold with reduced temps, the results can be quite good. For those who prefer chocolate and caramel flavors, it’s a good way to go.
Me? I prefer more citrus tones, so lighter roasts are my preference, but by turning down the temperature on dark roasts, I no longer consider them bad, just different.
Great thoughts. I love medium & dark roast. I understand the appeal of the bright vibrant flavors to be found in light roasted coffees. Do I love bitterness? Not necessarily. But I can tolerate it easily. What I can’t tolerate is the slightest amount of acidity. I like to get a nice bold coffee with natural sweetness & a smooth mouth feel. There will always be a place for med/dark roast bc its what many prefer.
interesting topic, worth talking about. I traveled the USA for work for about 6 years and always looked for "coffee roasters" on Yelp in what ever town, and generally had good luck. I'd walk in and order a latte and it was usually decent. At home I have a dual boiler system and get fresh beans from my local roaster "Klatch". Ive tried all their stuff over the years and now I just buy their "organic house espresso" blend which looks pretty dark. I have no idea if Im drinking a "dark roast" I never got in to roasting at home but maybe I should because now Im confused.
Segafredos espresso Casa was the first dark roast I had. Still I can’t get enough of it, just because it has been so easy for me to produce great, strong coffee with it whenever I’m at my mom’s and using her cheap espresso machine. As a cotta do with milk foam, it even has a complex beer quality to it, spicy and malty.
Most of us went through that journey where dark roast was it for us, and then taste grew into liking light roast fruity coffee. My taste buds lately prefer the acidity over bitter flavors of dark roast, but once in a while, dark roasted coffee do taste good. Lavaza Super Crema is a medium dark roast that tastes fairly decent as espresso and in moka pot. While I won't drink it daily but once in a while nice to change it up. A lot of times adding a small pinch of cinnamon in dark roast coffee does add a lot of flavor.
The battle is so fierce because the stakes are so low!
13-year home roaster here. Roast level is a polarizing topic. Too many at our level of obsession see anything beyond a few seconds past first crack as 'dark' roast, and ruined. That is nuts. Most of my roasts are what I'd call medium. No oil showing, except certain varieties...and that's only after a few weeks post-roast---if they last that long. I've already taken 3rd wave light roasted coffee from well-respected roasters home only to discover that there's nothing going on in the flavor department...and tossed them into my roaster to finish the task--with respectable results. If my coffee roasts were steak, they'd be a straight up medium...juicy, but not still mooing. My brother (also a home roaster) and I refer to excessively light roasts as "Bale of Hay" coffee.
My favorite rostery (HAYB from Poland) offers few coffees in "standard" and "dark" version. I often prefer the darker version. So I think this is a nice option that you can compare and pick for yourself.
Also brewing coffee marked as "for espresso" coffee in filter or french press produces nice results for me. Not always in mood for a light fruity roast
A good quality darker roast is just phenomenal! I started to make espresso with a portafilter (Lelit Elizabeth + DF83) a year ago and i am slightly also in lighter roasts. I think both worlds if tasty, at least for me , are great....still I always come back to the dark side 🙂....thank you very much for the topic...many greetings from Hamburg Germany...dado
I learned to drink dark roasts served half coffee and half warm milk -- on a trip to Colombia back in the 1970s. While I love the brightness of light and medium roasts, there is something deeply satisfying in a dark roast milk beverage, whether a gently splashed macchiato or an au lait large enough to get both elbows into.
Been doin osmotic flow technique with dark to very dark roast this past month, it’s not consistent but if I get the technique right I can get bitter sweet with fruity notes out of the coffee beans.
I need to revisit the osmotic with a fresh dark roast, thanks for the reminder.
I remember buying Stbux Espresso beans in the '90s, opening the bag and pass it around for all to take a big wiff out of the bag! Pulled shots on their Stainless Steel espresso machine. Thought we were in coffee haven.
Darker roasts also deserve praise for their ease to work with for home brewing. I just bought a Flair for a bit of fun trying lever style espresso and I went straight to a darker roast as I knew it would make my life easier in terms of dialing in. It also gave me a taste of history! Espresso began darker and began with a lever, so it felt like a great combo.
I grew up in the 60s and 70s, and I'm a dark roast tragic. I've a NZ grinder with a Rancilio, so low end of the home barista, and I think the main difference in the last 5 years is the dark roasts I've been brewing have lots of body and texture, with chocolate notes and little, if any astringency. Absolutely love this.
But I'll flip the conversation. I've tried speciality lighter roasts as espressos both brewed by myself and speciality baristas. Oft times I find the tasting notes a bit like whiskey tasting notes -- a lot of imagination.
However, when I've tried the speciality roasts as pour overs -- night and day. Then I can taste "notes of white peach" and "hints of imagination"... or whatever it is meant to be.
My take away is lighter roasts, except perhaps on $$$ high end grinders and espresso machines, is very much diminishing returns compared to much cheaper pour overs. Dark roasts, however, well done, will please the palate as an espresso on reasonably priced equipment.
I like medium roasts the most out of any roast profile. I generally like a little bit of acidity in coffee to balance the chocolatey flavors of more developed roasts. If a coffee happens to be really unique in its variety or process then I like to try those coffees light so i can get a better sense of the intrinsic flavors of the coffee, but the majority of the time I opt for a good specialty medium/medium-dark roast
I run a little home-based roastery and sell at farmer’s markets, and I always find myself underprepared with dark roasts. It sells out every time! I tend to prefer a pretty developed medium-light profile myself, and my staples in the lineup reflect that, but sometimes a decent dark roast is just sentimental and friendly. Especially when it’s still super fresh!
I always like to ask home-business scale roasters what they're roasting on. Kaldi, Huky, Ikawa? Something fancier like the ARC 800?
Interesting timing , this week i started to roast my yemeni mocca hajjaj " dark roast " but just befor it start to taste like tare or ashtray lol ... its actually very good even in straight espresso shot
I thought I hated coffee for years until I tasted my first light roast Ethiopian. I've gone back and tried a few times with some dark roast specialty stuff since I've been down the light roast rabbit hole but I'm yet to find anything that I'm liking enough that I'd ever buy it again. I'll meet you in the middle with a medium though!
I usually buy a dark roast espresso blend when I am planning to have many guests. I find it easier to get consistent results when splitting double shots.
Some of my best home roasts have been stretching development right before 2nd crack. The beans have a sheen but not oily yet.
Thank you my friend.
Of course! Thanks for your continued support Cheekster!
@@Sprometheus 👊🏻
Well, that was unexpected. You are a brave person, indeed. Although I do think this debate is somewhat overdue, and it should be aired more. The world is too divided on so many things and I do not think coffee should be one of them. We should focus our thoughts and action to supporting growers and others than bring this lovely product to our cups, and increasing sustainability wherever possible. Since I am in the UK, I have easy access to Espresso roast from James Hoffmann's roasters. They tend not to be light roasts (smiles) and I enjoy them very much. I try medium coffees for longer styles of beverage, and enjoy some but others less so. I drink coffee because I like it, and choose a style based on my mood at the time. Let everyone enjoy their brew just the way they want.
I live the reverse phenomenon. I'm a home enthusiast, and all my friends and family hate my third-wave coffee. I brought my brother to one of the best roasteries/café in Montréal, and he was sure the cup they served him was flawed. It was not.
My coffee experience is heavily influence by Italy, short, thick, dark espressi. Thus, that's what I brew and love. I love the dark roast (full city +) from a local speciality roaster, organic good quality arabica-beans from small farms in Brasilia, Guatemala and Columbia, that he buys directly from them. 100% what I love, 15g in 24g out in 25 seconds, thick, chocolaty, intense. And yes, I’d call it specialty coffee, and how in my opinion, an Italian espresso should be.
I think some of my bad reactions to dark roast in my case were connected to a different way of brewing needed. Stock recipes for 3rd wave brewers are IMHO almost always tailored to light roasts, and it's been a while since I gave myself time to do osmotic flow (which was uneven in terms of resulting cup, but very fun to get competent in). So going from a light roast comfort zone after hundreds of iterations to dark roasts has almost always started for me with a few bad cups. Since I do not necessarily have mental space to spent some time finding the proper cup after receiving a rare dark roast as a present, I tend to stick to lights.
Thanks for the video then. I will keep in mind that trying out a good quality dark roast might introduce me to a bit different type of coffee. If you ever do any videos about how to transition to dark roasts I will watch them with interest.
I guess the first thing I would do if I were to make me try it is to 1) buy 2 packs of one type of a high quality dark-roasted coffee so I HAVE TO stay with it for a while and I'm certain of its quality. Then 2) I'd start from a place that would be way off from what I usually choose and even what would be advised with dark roasts so I arrive this time at a possibly underextracted cup instead of crushingly overextracted tar pit. It would be more interesting to increase the extraction up towards a great cup instead of trying to go through undrinkable hellish coffees at a hope of arriving at something having a semblance of flavor notes. That makes me think that 3) bringing 1 or 2 friends for tasting would be easier for the first time. Smaller coffees to share, more options to dial in. Oh, and 4) some cruciferous veggies on the side since they block the intake of caffeine!
I'm italian and started to get into specialty coffee into my 30s...for me it's simply that I have enough of dark roast, I feel like I had 2 lives worth of it, so I'll try to avoid it for the rest of my life.
Totally with you in regs of Dark roasted beauties... I don't like fruitiness at all in espresso and; since I like me daily brews with a dash of milk at times, tend to mostly use dark and dark-medium roasts. For a proper old stool experience I go for Napoli's finest ;-) Passalacqua 70/30 or 80/20 mixes. It's such a comforting step "backwards" but acidity and fruitiness are so tiring
I started with dark roasts, working my way through medium to enjoying mostly light/medium now. However, my gf likes dark roast and only one shot a day. I am always happy to drink the other one, since it's already there. It tastes less to my preference, but it's still quite good. If anything, it makes me enjoy the light/medium more later in the day because I don't get tired of a taste profile.
I developed my love for coffee (read Italian roast ESPRESSO) in Europe while in the US Navy in the late 60's and my taste hasn't changed in the years since so I will be a dark roast drinker til the day they shovel dirt on my used up husk!
Tnx for that!
Actually you’re sound kind of sad, but really honest.
I really appreciate a londinium review!
A good oily dark roast from a third wave coffee roaster is just so good. I’ve always preferred it to light and medium due to the acidity. Get way less heartburn as a 30 something coffee drinker with a dark roast. That said there’s even something I enjoy about a cup of Folgers or other bulk coffee. You can tell it isn’t the same or as “good” but it’s charming and comforting in its own way.
Funny enough, dark roast is how I discovered the most vibrant cup of gesha I ever tasted, I wasn't even targeting espresso.
I went "eh, why not?", and brewed V60 with it, turned out very sweet with decent acidity and a very juicy body. Tho it's not as floral as other geshas I've worked with, it's still a lovely cup of coffee.
It was properly dark, darker than my normal espresso roast, but the 72hours of fermentation that I was being careful not to overemphasize turned out to be well balanced with the darker profile.
I'm still experimenting with other cheaper coffees to implement this style and make it work.
Totally agree. My GF loves dark roasts and I try to find good ones for her. Pallet Coffee out of Vancouver do some really good ones (called"New Traditional Roasts").
I prefer light/medium roasts for my pour over/aeropress and dark roasts for espresso. I have started roasting my own beans as well, and well medium/dark is very easy and it comes out good. The espresso I have been making with my home roasted Primos coffee beans has been superb (and it saves me a ton of money haha). The medium roast i pulled with a popcorn popper and the caterra variety was nice and juicy, a bit citrusy and light chocolate. very refreshing. The dark roast i did was nutty and dark chocolate but not overly bitter either. still a very nice coffee when both are aeropressed.
I just jumped shipped from a popcorn popper to a proper SR800 so im still learning that bit, and i think the 2 batches i did this past sunday are more on the medium side but i cant wait to fully learn this and get some delicious dark roasts, profiling my roast to get the most out of that maillard phase as it goes into 2nd crack
I think that with dark roasts you get the roast flavor only, but with light roasts you can distinguish the inherent flavors of the coffee origin.
Thank you for this! I have been a fan of medium dark to dark roast since my first taste of fresh roasted beans in 1972 from the then Wet Wisker in Seattle. Maybe that's because I like some bitterness but not much acidity. Good beans, freshly roasted, will always taste better, but I'll stay on the darker side.
Light for pour-over
Dark for Espresso
I but to my local roaster, I usually buy light roast, and I love the vanilla flavor in their beans, but I want to taste chocolate flavors so I decided to buy dark roast, I love when I grind it because it was so smooth, when I do the espresso it has too much crema so I was so excited to taste, it was a shame that tastes like fish and carbon, so I only drink that coffee in Americano but it keeps the little flavor of carbon, I will never buy dark roast again
Spro, do you think you could give us a quick list of like 5 specialty "dark" roasts that are worth trying out? It seems fairly hard to find anyone talking about decent darker roasts. Normally when someone says it is a darker roast it is medium-light, lol. Something like Onyx Monarch, to me, is a medium roast at best. Eclipse is better. Counter Culture 46 is good too. I saw you mention bird rock french roast, I'll probably give that a go.
Thanks if you get a chance!
I wish I had a list of them. I haven’t actually sat down and tried to do that. I definitely really enjoyed the Bird Rock French roast, and I recently had the downtown blend from Bean & Bean out of NY and that was a nice darker style roast that had plenty of character without being buried. Not a full on oily dark roast either, maybe right on the cusp of a very dark medium to dark roast.
@@Sprometheus Thanks. I'll give them a try. It is hard finding coffee that walks that dark but medium line.
Just figured I'd update coffees that I have tried since making this comment:
I tried a dark roast called "Punch in the face" by Backyard beans and it was really a dark roast. Slightly too dark for me. Not Starbucks or Peet's dark but darker than any other specialty coffee I have ever tried. Way darker than Eclipse. Think I'll try a medium roast from them as it might be closer to what I like. (I guess I like that middle of the road not dark but not medium coffee, lol.)
Next, I tried "Dark Roast" by Necessary coffee (related to Passenger coffee) and it was by no stretch of the imagination a dark roast. Maybe around a similar roast level to Monarch, maybe slightly lighter. Quite bright to be called a dark roast (for my tastes).
Isn't it funny how that works. These are both semi-local to me and both listed as dark, yet they are very different roast levels.
I will continue my search. I haven't go to try the Bean & Bean that Spro mentioned yet. If you buy from amazon (roast to order) they offer the downtown blend as a dark or a medium. On their site only as a medium. Not sure which one to try, lol.