I believe the main reason for the curve in the control arm is to control the arms mode of failure. Regardless of the shape two points on a rod will have the same effective geometry. The m3 arms are made out of aluminum while the 335i arms are steel. A straight aluminum rod, unlikely steel, will fail catastrophically. Adding a curve to the arm encourages a progressive failure. So instead of snapping, the arm will bend (but still be connected.
Thanks. Great video - answered some questions I had. I’m about to replace my stock shocks & mounts, struts, springs with Bilstein B8 (oops not B12 as I originally stated) w H&R springs. Suspect rear control arms next. - Daily driver 2007 BMW 335xi 98K, original owner. I have a leaking R rear shock so replacement is necessary anyway. Front control arms and tie rods already replaced due to noise, age etc.
I had a ‘11 xdrive 335i that I ran BC Racing coilovers on. I personally think if you have the extra money over springs and shocks that’s the way to go. Having a shock that’s specifically valved for the spring rate you’re running is more important than most people realize.
TL;DR- totally worth it. This video never answered the question regarding whether the M3 rear control arms are worth it. So I thought I would add my two cents worth. The answer (for me) is an unequivocal YES. But as always, your mileage may vary. I've never been satisfied with the rear end of my 335i. I ended up replacing component after component until it felt right (tm). My journey so far: 1) Rear shocks. They were completely shot. This fixed the clunking going around U-turns. 2) Rear subframe bushings with M3 bushings. This helped the rear end feel less loose under acceleration. Better but not good. 3) Rear lower bushings and or arms. This included 6 bushings on each side: the toe arms, trailing arm bushings, roll-over strut bushing/ball joint (the big, wide arms on the bottom that hold up the springs/shocks). This once again helped marginally but under hard acceleration, the rear of the car wandered. I looked to this video hoping for a hard yes or no answer but instead got a solid maybe. I bit the bullet and got the M3 upper control arms because those were the only rear suspension components left! After replacing the four upper control arms, the rear end feels completely planted under hard acceleration. It squats but no side to side wander-- I guess I might want to get higher rate springs at some point. It took me about 3 hours start to finish. I found that getting the bolt into the hub first helps. Then you can raise the hub with a jack to help with alignment of the holes in the subframe. You might need to twist the arm to get it to fit. It is easy to cross thread and ruin the hub if you force the bolt-- do the hub first and start by hand. As a side note, the M3 control arms are the exact same length as the non-M3 arms. I checked the toe with a laser (and trigonometry) before and after and it was within 0 deg, 3 minutes. If you aren't sure how to check your toe/camber, get it checked afterwards.
Thanks for the detailed comment. Although I don’t say yes or no, I think I sum up my opinions on this mod pretty directly. To me it’s seems like your rationale is anecdotal, more than you’re providing any reasoning behind why you think they’re better than the stock, non M components. That’s not a knock on your assessment, just simply pointing it out. I also have an anecdotal comment on my video, where I explain that I added M3 control arms to another 335i of mine, along with SF inserts (which is crucially important.) I didn’t really feel much in the way of any handling benefits, at all really. That car was more stiff under acceleration but that’s almost certainly attributed to the SF being stiffened up by the inserts and not the control arms. So in summary the only difference between these sets of CAs is the M3 arms are negligibly lighter and the lower arm (guide rod) has a ball joint on the inside position instead of a bushing. The bow in the M3 CAs, as another commentator pointed out, is to tune the stiffness so that the CAs break or bend in an accident, to keep other larger more expensive components safe. There is also a very good write up on one of the forums where someone goes into extreme detail on all of this while using a shock dyno to test the strength of both sets of CAs. To me you experienced a significant difference because your old CA bushings were probably shot (high mileage) and the resulting toe/camber changes under load were corrected by the newer fresh bushings. I personally think you could’ve had the same noticeable results by simply replacing your CAs with new non M ones. The only reason I would recommend buying M3 CAs is if you’re doing a full suspension build, like I did, and want to have as many soft bushing replaced by either ball joints or poly/solid. In my opinion the best option for CAs on this platform, both M and non M, would be fully adjustable ones with FK bearing type rod ends (which I already plan to switch to.) Thanks again for the comment
From what I've seen other CZcamsrs mention about the M3 controls is that they are serviceable aka you can swap bushings on them. The factory stuff is not and that seems to be one of the main draws other than the performance.
Thanks for making us (the novices )aware of the difference between the standard and M3 Control arms. I notice that while you are explaining the geometries of the control arms you have a manual to the left of you open on page 330.Would you please give me the title and possible the link from where I can get it. Many Thanks
i spent 303 includign shippign from rock auto.. and it came with new M sport rear B4 bilstein shocks.. brand is Delphi. same brand partially used in ECS low cost option. but for less than the low cost Delphi/TRW mix, and getting new shocks, i'm good.. now to make my own rear toe links with Heim joint and Swage tube.. cause 400 for turner links is ridiculous. (Edit.. turns out the heim joints in Stainless Steel are 305 by themselves.. so maybe not quite so ridiculous.. but charging 32.70 for the boot is, they are 4 USD each)
There won’t be a difference in geometry if the arms are the same length. The reason for the bow in the solid arms is to tune their stiffness to be a particular number. There’s a post of someone measuring them on a spring dyno. This is done in the event of a crash the arm deforms before it damages other structures.
Yeah that was just a stab in the dark I took while going over the potential reasoning M would’ve used in engineering a completely new control arm. I don’t pretend to know their reasoning. I would not recommend them as some game changer mod, the way others do. It actually makes me laugh that anyone would think a noticeable change would occur from the mod. However I do like that both arms are now linked to the subframe with a ball joint.
@@midwestbmw1292 I would agree, the upper control arm probably doesn’t even see that much force if you think about it, it’s (mostly) only controlling camber. The guide rod is where there could be a material benefit in switching the bushing with another spherical bearing, with accompanying NVH. I swapped my subframe bushings to solid mounts, and did spherical bearings on the toe arms and trailing arms and it made a huge difference but haven’t been back to the track yet. I didn’t touch the upper or guide rod though so that might help answer your question.
@@snivesz32 I’m not surprised to read you had a big difference from other mods while keeping the stock control arms. I haven’t done the video detailing my complete suspension mod list, but it’s coming soon. I did the trailing arm ball joint conversion as well, along with M3 sf mounts and adjustable toe arms from SPL. In fact the only thing I didn’t change was the inner swing arm to sf mount because it’s stiff enough (same one used on the M3). The downside of doing all the mods at once is that I won’t be able to properly isolate the benefits, or lack of benefits for each mod, aside from maybe the coilovers.
Thanks for the video, clear and concise and I'm sure I walked away with a little more knowledge. I need to check my car more carefully. It was tracked by the last owner, but has been a daily/weekly driver for me. @almost 90k, 2007/e90/335i, I'm not sure if they made mods or upgrades; they were long gone when I bought it, back in 2009. As I take my general car knowledge and start to get very specific about this one, I keep seeing discussion about interesting upgrades, like these M3 control arms, front and rear. I'm sure at this age, with a wet belly, need to do vc gasket, of gasket (probably), and oil pan gasket for sure. I've noticed the TRW stamp on some of the front arms already, but not sure if that means they are M3 upgrades. Haven't looked critically at the rear yet, though after the ~60k I've driven, surely needs attention/replacements. The struts in front could use replacement, rear shocks and parts probably, I think they may have been a little wet, will definitely check carefully. My path will be to upgrade: I want the most capable car for street driving, mountain roads, maybe a few track days, but haven't gotten racing fever (or budget) yet. Adding bolt-ons for performance, but I'm working tnrough, top down, over time, while I keep it driveable most of the time. Will gladly take any thoughts and suggestions for upgrades. -
Yeah I’m taking a little different approach not going the coil over route. I have the Bilstein B12 kit on the front with all the M3 goodies. Hotchkiss front and rear sway bar that I believe is the best on the market. The rear I’m going with either solid aluminum bushings for the sub frame or poly black bushings. Then you put the rear M3 control arm/spring perch along with the Bilstein b8 shock and I’ll still be able to use my lowering springs that came with the b12 kit with the M3 spring perch. That eliminates the rubber crappy bushing. Then go with a good urethane bushing up top. Never did like to look of that stamp steel spring perch on the stock 335I and apparently it being stamped steel is really Flexi. My car is going to be a daily driver along with the Rob Beck game finishers. Your coil overs are far superior than my set up. I’ll probably go with the wave trac differential. Also going to do all the M3 bits/arms on the rear!
That sounds like a solid set up honestly. It’ll put that massive increase in power down that’s for sure. I was going to go Wavetrac but once I saw the Ford 8.8 kit, I just had to go for it.
I have a similar setup. Only difference is i have the Bilstein r8 on front and back. Which urethane top bushing did you settle on (or are looking at). Also do you have any size recommendations for the front sway bar link?
Don't do inserts on the rear subframe bushings, have them replaced with either m3 bushings or solid aluminum. The rear control arms don't make a noticable difference to be honest but I still think it's a great upgrade for the geometry reason if that makes any sense. Great video 👍
Thanks! I’m curious to hear your thoughts on why the inserts aren’t a good option? I did the 034 Motorsport inserts on my 335xi and it made a world of difference. With the subframe currently out of the car I could really go with any option I want, with regard rob subframe bushings. The only reason I planned to go with inserts is due to the positive experience I had with them in the past. But...the guy I consulted about my suspension upgrades recommended the M3 version, too. I guess I’d just like to hear solid reasoning as to why they’re better than inserts for the stockers.
@@midwestbmw1292 I've driven my friends 335 e90 with inserts (forgot the brand) and yes they are way better than stock but when we did a 3rd gear pull I could still feel a little wobble from the rear end. It still feels unpredictable too. It's just not solid enough. I'm using the bimmerworld solid aluminium ones and the wobble or unpredictable feeling is gone. Also, nvh is not noticable. The stock m3 bushings same thing but I think it's a more comfortable ride with them. Basically I feel every pebble/bump on the street with mine (I occasionally track my car too) compare to the one with m3 bushings. I think with the m3 ones you'd be really happy for performance and with how comfortable it is.
@@in54ne82 thanks. Solid reasoning. It kind of makes me what to buy inserts and M3 bushings to do a comparison between stock, stock w/ inserts and M3. I had originally planned on doing solid aluminum subframe bushings but got scared away by the potential increase in NVH. However from what I’ve been hearing you’re more likely to notice an increase in NVH when using harder diff bushings. I have a few more weeks before my LSD comes in so maybe I’ll spend that time contemplating on which SF bushings to go with.
@@midwestbmw1292 Sounds good. You have the whole thing apart mind as well have it done it's way easier to do those bushings off the car. What's the purpose build for the car? Track use or both street and track? Dual purpose I'd do the solid, for mostly street the m3 ones. Bushings and lsd will make the car a blast to drive you won't regret it.
@@in54ne82 it will likely live on street far more than at the track but I’m building it with track use in mind. There’s a reason that SF bushings are the last suspension mod left for me to purchase and it centers around the exact conversation you and I are having. I’ve been doing some more reading this morning, and based on our back and forth I think the M3 ones are the route I’ll take. Especially given that you’re not the only person who’s told me it’s the way to go. Worst case scenario I can always swap them out for minimal $$ and a weekend in the garage. 🤷🏻♂️. Thanks again for your input!
Did you consider replacing the actual spring perch with the M3, I hear the spring perch on the M3 is definitely stiffer than the one that comes standard on your car. I know the shocks would have to be replaced because of the way they mount to the spring perch and you would have to use the M3 bolts to fasten the spring perch!
The M3 rear lower control arm (spring perch) is different from the non-M cars because the shock mounting is bolt through and thus solid. Non-M have the shock mounted basically to a cheap rubber block which allows a ton of flex and movement. The actual rubber spring mount between the two isn’t much different. To make my car more solid than an M car I have an AKG spherical bearing lower mount, which replaces the rubber block. Also my 3DM Motorsports kit doesn’t use the rubber spring mount. It ditches it in favor of a combination of polyurethane and rubber spacers/shims and Swift thrust sheets.
I’m an engineer, a link bar wit two holes spaced equidistance apart will have the same suspension geometry no matter the shape. Eg the arcs produced by both links have the same radius. The m front suspension. Is longer than the stock bar that produces more camber for the steering wheels. That being said I am willing to bet that this designs offers more strength.
@@Jeff-bw5kw the guide rod bows toward the ground and the wishbone bows toward the sky. In other words they’re mounted with their bow facing opposite each other. Google E92 M3 rear suspension diagram. Fun fact: when I installed these on my first E92 back in the day, I mounted them both with the bow facing up, thinking that made sense. It never felt right and made some weird noises so I researched a little and realized I mounted the guide rod upside down. How they’re oriented in this video is correct.
Great! I installed them both up towards the sky, along with a 25mm UUC rear sway bar, Megan toe arm, Hotchkiss links, new trailing arm, along with new KW V1 coilovers and PE subframe mounts (I had removed the subframe like you to do everything). I’ve been going CRAZY the last week because I couldn’t get the wheels back to ride height with a jack to tighten everything - they were always 2-3 inches too high!. I’m going to switch the guide rods so they orient downward. My brain can’t see how that will correct my ride height issues, but who knows? Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
@Jeff-bw5kw well rest assured you’re not the only one that’s installed them incorrectly. Glad this video helped you get it right. With all the upgrades you’ve mentioned the only way I can guess would get your ride height correct is by adjusting the spring perch on the coilovers.
Funny, I did that too. I actually purchased new KW V1s to warranty replace my old ones which are 11 years old. Started with the springs set to exactly the same height, and had the problem. I then set the spring height last night to zero, still the problem so there’s something weird going on. I wonder whether it’s because my exhaust is still out and there’s not enough weight to pull the car down to the wheels while still up on the Quick Jack? I will try by adding weight to the trunk. Who knows! I pulled all my hair out and am now bald! 😢ha ha
I got them through FCP Euro a few years back and cannot remember the brand. The M logo was scratched off for whatever reasons they have to be able to sell them.
So you said the smaller arm isnt really much of an upgrade, so I was thinking can I just upgrade the longer arms to m3 and get brand new smaller ones??
The front lower control arm will allow more negative camber because it is longer. It also has a ball joint instead of a rubber bushing, where it connects to the subframe. The only difference in the front upper control arm is a slightly stiffer bushing in the M variant. You could in theory just buy a stiffer bushing for your existing front upper control arm, press it in, and have it be as stiff or stiffer than the M variant. I went with the Monoball in my front upper control arm which is the pinnacle of what can be done to the E9x front suspension
@@midwestbmw1292 so would that actually be possible? But seems like what your saying it would jus be better to change the bushings in them. I do need a bit of help I’m trying to find all the other ball/joints and bushes that will need replacing in the rear and for upgraded ones to, if any chance could give links to all the bushes I’d appreciate it. Except sway bars, so all control arms and trailing bushes. Please I’ve been struggling for hours trying to list them all out :(
@@drizzeysmith9699 if you look on all my video descriptions you’ll see my mod list and where I got the items. It’s not links but it will give you what you need. One thing I’ve added this summer that is not on my mod list is Rev Shift trailing arms. They have cut down on the amount of movement in the rear under hard acceleration.
It’s the Bentley manual for non M E9x chassis. I picked mine up on ebay used. www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_nkw=Bmw+3+Series+2006-2010+325+328+330+335+Service+Repair+Manual+Hardcover+Like+New&_id=284105264004&
Dont buy them from bmw. They are made by TRW for bmw. The ones I got thru a parts supplier that sounds like a sea bird had the bmw emblem ground off for 1/2 the price
The 335is has the M sport suspension that came on the regular 335i with the M sport package. The 335is has the following items that make it standout •N54 with increased output (better factory tune) •DCT transmission option •Better cooling through added transmission and oil coolers, and ducting. •Performance Exhaust w/ black tips •Unique rear valance •Blacked out trim •335is badging on exterior/interior
I believe the front control arms yielded better results than the rears. The front M3 lower control arm adds extra negative camber over the stock non-M control arm. Also I added the Turner Monoball in the front upper control arm, which made the most noticeable difference. Remember the only thing different about the front upper control arm (thrust arm) is the bushing material in it. The arm itself is identical across all RWD models on the E9x chassis. So you could in theory keep your existing thrust arm and simply replace the bushing in it with whatever aftermarket bushing/bearing you’d prefer. For me, I went with the top of the line Monoball.
@@midwestbmw1292 I have an m3 rear end on my 335is with m3 control arms in the rear and poly bushings. If I decided to keep the front control arms stock could I run aftermarket m3 coilovers front and rear. Or would I have to change the front control arms to M3 ones in order for the coilovers to be compatible.
As long as you have the COMPLETE M3 rear suspension, including the lower control arm (spring perch) then the rears will mount for sure. The fronts will likely mount but may require different end links, I’m assuming you could get away without running the M3 front control arms but I wouldn’t if I were going that route. I would go with coilovers developed for a 335i as there are plenty of great options out there to choose from without any of the unknowns.
You’d need to switch the lower control arm (spring perch) back to the 335i version and the rear 335i coil over kit will bolt right up to the M3 rear suspension. The M3 rear shock uses an eyelet style mount at the bottom, whereas the 335i doesn’t. That’s the reason you’d have to switch back to the 335i perch, because of how the lower rear shock mounts. Everything else is the same. In order to get an “M3 quality” mounting point you could buy AKG lower shock mount, which has a spherical bearing in it. That’s what I have on mine.
I no longer have my other 335i, which was AWD. The X-Drive cars have the exact same rear suspension setup as RWD 335i, so any rear suspension components that fit a RWD car will also fit an AWD variation. The front suspension is the only area that differs.
I believe the main reason for the curve in the control arm is to control the arms mode of failure. Regardless of the shape two points on a rod will have the same effective geometry. The m3 arms are made out of aluminum while the 335i arms are steel. A straight aluminum rod, unlikely steel, will fail catastrophically. Adding a curve to the arm encourages a progressive failure. So instead of snapping, the arm will bend (but still be connected.
Bingo.
Thanks. Great video - answered some questions I had. I’m about to replace my stock shocks & mounts, struts, springs with Bilstein B8 (oops not B12 as I originally stated) w H&R springs. Suspect rear control arms next.
- Daily driver 2007 BMW 335xi 98K, original owner. I have a leaking R rear shock so replacement is necessary anyway. Front control arms and tie rods already replaced due to noise, age etc.
I had a ‘11 xdrive 335i that I ran BC Racing coilovers on. I personally think if you have the extra money over springs and shocks that’s the way to go. Having a shock that’s specifically valved for the spring rate you’re running is more important than most people realize.
Keep up the content! Thank you for all the detailed information.
Thanks! Some pretty major upgrade video coming real soon.
TL;DR- totally worth it.
This video never answered the question regarding whether the M3 rear control arms are worth it. So I thought I would add my two cents worth. The answer (for me) is an unequivocal YES. But as always, your mileage may vary. I've never been satisfied with the rear end of my 335i. I ended up replacing component after component until it felt right (tm). My journey so far:
1) Rear shocks. They were completely shot. This fixed the clunking going around U-turns.
2) Rear subframe bushings with M3 bushings. This helped the rear end feel less loose under acceleration. Better but not good.
3) Rear lower bushings and or arms. This included 6 bushings on each side: the toe arms, trailing arm bushings, roll-over strut bushing/ball joint (the big, wide arms on the bottom that hold up the springs/shocks). This once again helped marginally but under hard acceleration, the rear of the car wandered.
I looked to this video hoping for a hard yes or no answer but instead got a solid maybe. I bit the bullet and got the M3 upper control arms because those were the only rear suspension components left! After replacing the four upper control arms, the rear end feels completely planted under hard acceleration. It squats but no side to side wander-- I guess I might want to get higher rate springs at some point. It took me about 3 hours start to finish. I found that getting the bolt into the hub first helps. Then you can raise the hub with a jack to help with alignment of the holes in the subframe. You might need to twist the arm to get it to fit. It is easy to cross thread and ruin the hub if you force the bolt-- do the hub first and start by hand.
As a side note, the M3 control arms are the exact same length as the non-M3 arms. I checked the toe with a laser (and trigonometry) before and after and it was within 0 deg, 3 minutes. If you aren't sure how to check your toe/camber, get it checked afterwards.
Thanks for the detailed comment. Although I don’t say yes or no, I think I sum up my opinions on this mod pretty directly.
To me it’s seems like your rationale is anecdotal, more than you’re providing any reasoning behind why you think they’re better than the stock, non M components. That’s not a knock on your assessment, just simply pointing it out.
I also have an anecdotal comment on my video, where I explain that I added M3 control arms to another 335i of mine, along with SF inserts (which is crucially important.) I didn’t really feel much in the way of any handling benefits, at all really. That car was more stiff under acceleration but that’s almost certainly attributed to the SF being stiffened up by the inserts and not the control arms.
So in summary the only difference between these sets of CAs is the M3 arms are negligibly lighter and the lower arm (guide rod) has a ball joint on the inside position instead of a bushing. The bow in the M3 CAs, as another commentator pointed out, is to tune the stiffness so that the CAs break or bend in an accident, to keep other larger more expensive components safe.
There is also a very good write up on one of the forums where someone goes into extreme detail on all of this while using a shock dyno to test the strength of both sets of CAs.
To me you experienced a significant difference because your old CA bushings were probably shot (high mileage) and the resulting toe/camber changes under load were corrected by the newer fresh bushings. I personally think you could’ve had the same noticeable results by simply replacing your CAs with new non M ones.
The only reason I would recommend buying M3 CAs is if you’re doing a full suspension build, like I did, and want to have as many soft bushing replaced by either ball joints or poly/solid. In my opinion the best option for CAs on this platform, both M and non M, would be fully adjustable ones with FK bearing type rod ends (which I already plan to switch to.)
Thanks again for the comment
From what I've seen other CZcamsrs mention about the M3 controls is that they are serviceable aka you can swap bushings on them. The factory stuff is not and that seems to be one of the main draws other than the performance.
Pounds add up, and if you have a 10+ year e9x, they probably need replacement as the bushes are worn
Thanks for making us (the novices )aware of the difference between the standard and M3 Control arms. I notice that while you are explaining the geometries of the control arms you have a manual to the left of you open on page 330.Would you please give me the title and possible the link from where I can get it. Many Thanks
same question I have - thank you for your reply :)
Really helps with rear subframe and differential bushings along with LSD.
i spent 303 includign shippign from rock auto.. and it came with new M sport rear B4 bilstein shocks.. brand is Delphi. same brand partially used in ECS low cost option. but for less than the low cost Delphi/TRW mix, and getting new shocks, i'm good.. now to make my own rear toe links with Heim joint and Swage tube.. cause 400 for turner links is ridiculous. (Edit.. turns out the heim joints in Stainless Steel are 305 by themselves.. so maybe not quite so ridiculous.. but charging 32.70 for the boot is, they are 4 USD each)
There won’t be a difference in geometry if the arms are the same length. The reason for the bow in the solid arms is to tune their stiffness to be a particular number. There’s a post of someone measuring them on a spring dyno. This is done in the event of a crash the arm deforms before it damages other structures.
Yeah that was just a stab in the dark I took while going over the potential reasoning M would’ve used in engineering a completely new control arm. I don’t pretend to know their reasoning. I would not recommend them as some game changer mod, the way others do. It actually makes me laugh that anyone would think a noticeable change would occur from the mod. However I do like that both arms are now linked to the subframe with a ball joint.
@@midwestbmw1292 I would agree, the upper control arm probably doesn’t even see that much force if you think about it, it’s (mostly) only controlling camber. The guide rod is where there could be a material benefit in switching the bushing with another spherical bearing, with accompanying NVH.
I swapped my subframe bushings to solid mounts, and did spherical bearings on the toe arms and trailing arms and it made a huge difference but haven’t been back to the track yet. I didn’t touch the upper or guide rod though so that might help answer your question.
@@snivesz32 I’m not surprised to read you had a big difference from other mods while keeping the stock control arms.
I haven’t done the video detailing my complete suspension mod list, but it’s coming soon.
I did the trailing arm ball joint conversion as well, along with M3 sf mounts and adjustable toe arms from SPL. In fact the only thing I didn’t change was the inner swing arm to sf mount because it’s stiff enough (same one used on the M3).
The downside of doing all the mods at once is that I won’t be able to properly isolate the benefits, or lack of benefits for each mod, aside from maybe the coilovers.
Thanks for the video, clear and concise and I'm sure I walked away with a little more knowledge.
I need to check my car more carefully. It was tracked by the last owner, but has been a daily/weekly driver for me. @almost 90k, 2007/e90/335i, I'm not sure if they made mods or upgrades; they were long gone when I bought it, back in 2009.
As I take my general car knowledge and start to get very specific about this one, I keep seeing discussion about interesting upgrades, like these M3 control arms, front and rear. I'm sure at this age, with a wet belly, need to do vc gasket, of gasket (probably), and oil pan gasket for sure.
I've noticed the TRW stamp on some of the front arms already, but not sure if that means they are M3 upgrades. Haven't looked critically at the rear yet, though after the ~60k I've driven, surely needs attention/replacements. The struts in front could use replacement, rear shocks and parts probably, I think they may have been a little wet, will definitely check carefully. My path will be to upgrade: I want the most capable car for street driving, mountain roads, maybe a few track days, but haven't gotten racing fever (or budget) yet. Adding bolt-ons for performance, but I'm working tnrough, top down, over time, while I keep it driveable most of the time.
Will gladly take any thoughts and suggestions for upgrades. -
Yeah I’m taking a little different approach not going the coil over route. I have the Bilstein B12 kit on the front with all the M3 goodies. Hotchkiss front and rear sway bar that I believe is the best on the market. The rear I’m going with either solid aluminum bushings for the sub frame or poly black bushings. Then you put the rear M3 control arm/spring perch along with the Bilstein b8 shock and I’ll still be able to use my lowering springs that came with the b12 kit with the M3 spring perch. That eliminates the rubber crappy bushing. Then go with a good urethane bushing up top. Never did like to look of that stamp steel spring perch on the stock 335I and apparently it being stamped steel is really Flexi. My car is going to be a daily driver along with the Rob Beck game finishers. Your coil overs are far superior than my set up. I’ll probably go with the wave trac differential. Also going to do all the M3 bits/arms on the rear!
That sounds like a solid set up honestly. It’ll put that massive increase in power down that’s for sure. I was going to go Wavetrac but once I saw the Ford 8.8 kit, I just had to go for it.
I have a similar setup. Only difference is i have the Bilstein r8 on front and back. Which urethane top bushing did you settle on (or are looking at). Also do you have any size recommendations for the front sway bar link?
Don't do inserts on the rear subframe bushings, have them replaced with either m3 bushings or solid aluminum. The rear control arms don't make a noticable difference to be honest but I still think it's a great upgrade for the geometry reason if that makes any sense.
Great video 👍
Thanks! I’m curious to hear your thoughts on why the inserts aren’t a good option? I did the 034 Motorsport inserts on my 335xi and it made a world of difference. With the subframe currently out of the car I could really go with any option I want, with regard rob subframe bushings. The only reason I planned to go with inserts is due to the positive experience I had with them in the past. But...the guy I consulted about my suspension upgrades recommended the M3 version, too. I guess I’d just like to hear solid reasoning as to why they’re better than inserts for the stockers.
@@midwestbmw1292 I've driven my friends 335 e90 with inserts (forgot the brand) and yes they are way better than stock but when we did a 3rd gear pull I could still feel a little wobble from the rear end. It still feels unpredictable too. It's just not solid enough.
I'm using the bimmerworld solid aluminium ones and the wobble or unpredictable feeling is gone. Also, nvh is not noticable. The stock m3 bushings same thing but I think it's a more comfortable ride with them. Basically I feel every pebble/bump on the street with mine (I occasionally track my car too) compare to the one with m3 bushings. I think with the m3 ones you'd be really happy for performance and with how comfortable it is.
@@in54ne82 thanks. Solid reasoning. It kind of makes me what to buy inserts and M3 bushings to do a comparison between stock, stock w/ inserts and M3.
I had originally planned on doing solid aluminum subframe bushings but got scared away by the potential increase in NVH. However from what I’ve been hearing you’re more likely to notice an increase in NVH when using harder diff bushings.
I have a few more weeks before my LSD comes in so maybe I’ll spend that time contemplating on which SF bushings to go with.
@@midwestbmw1292 Sounds good. You have the whole thing apart mind as well have it done it's way easier to do those bushings off the car. What's the purpose build for the car? Track use or both street and track? Dual purpose I'd do the solid, for mostly street the m3 ones.
Bushings and lsd will make the car a blast to drive you won't regret it.
@@in54ne82 it will likely live on street far more than at the track but I’m building it with track use in mind.
There’s a reason that SF bushings are the last suspension mod left for me to purchase and it centers around the exact conversation you and I are having. I’ve been doing some more reading this morning, and based on our back and forth I think the M3 ones are the route I’ll take. Especially given that you’re not the only person who’s told me it’s the way to go.
Worst case scenario I can always swap them out for minimal $$ and a weekend in the garage. 🤷🏻♂️. Thanks again for your input!
Does anyone know the bolts for the guide rods installing on a pre lci 325i 2006
Good stuff
Did you consider replacing the actual spring perch with the M3, I hear the spring perch on the M3 is definitely stiffer than the one that comes standard on your car. I know the shocks would have to be replaced because of the way they mount to the spring perch and you would have to use the M3 bolts to fasten the spring perch!
The M3 rear lower control arm (spring perch) is different from the non-M cars because the shock mounting is bolt through and thus solid. Non-M have the shock mounted basically to a cheap rubber block which allows a ton of flex and movement. The actual rubber spring mount between the two isn’t much different. To make my car more solid than an M car I have an AKG spherical bearing lower mount, which replaces the rubber block. Also my 3DM Motorsports kit doesn’t use the rubber spring mount. It ditches it in favor of a combination of polyurethane and rubber spacers/shims and Swift thrust sheets.
I’m an engineer, a link bar wit two holes spaced equidistance apart will have the same suspension geometry no matter the shape. Eg the arcs produced by both links have the same radius. The m front suspension. Is longer than the stock bar that produces more camber for the steering wheels. That being said I am willing to bet that this designs offers more strength.
7:51 the M3 guide rod is mounted on the subframe, bent downwards. Shouldn’t it be bent upwards?
@@Jeff-bw5kw the guide rod bows toward the ground and the wishbone bows toward the sky. In other words they’re mounted with their bow facing opposite each other. Google E92 M3 rear suspension diagram.
Fun fact: when I installed these on my first E92 back in the day, I mounted them both with the bow facing up, thinking that made sense. It never felt right and made some weird noises so I researched a little and realized I mounted the guide rod upside down. How they’re oriented in this video is correct.
Great! I installed them both up towards the sky, along with a 25mm UUC rear sway bar, Megan toe arm, Hotchkiss links, new trailing arm, along with new KW V1 coilovers and PE subframe mounts (I had removed the subframe like you to do everything). I’ve been going CRAZY the last week because I couldn’t get the wheels back to ride height with a jack to tighten everything - they were always 2-3 inches too high!. I’m going to switch the guide rods so they orient downward. My brain can’t see how that will correct my ride height issues, but who knows? Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
@Jeff-bw5kw well rest assured you’re not the only one that’s installed them incorrectly. Glad this video helped you get it right. With all the upgrades you’ve mentioned the only way I can guess would get your ride height correct is by adjusting the spring perch on the coilovers.
Funny, I did that too. I actually purchased new KW V1s to warranty replace my old ones which are 11 years old. Started with the springs set to exactly the same height, and had the problem. I then set the spring height last night to zero, still the problem so there’s something weird going on. I wonder whether it’s because my exhaust is still out and there’s not enough weight to pull the car down to the wheels while still up on the Quick Jack? I will try by adding weight to the trunk. Who knows! I pulled all my hair out and am now bald! 😢ha ha
Are these interchangeable on my ‘10 e91 328i LCI as well?
Yes but don't buy them actually, buy adjustable rear arms instead.
fyi , 1oz = 28g ...
Good video, I have an e82 and I was wondering if these m3 control arms will fit ?
Yeah they’ll bolt right up.
what brand were these? with the logo scratched. want to buy them for myself and I want to be sure to get the OEM equivalent
I got them through FCP Euro a few years back and cannot remember the brand. The M logo was scratched off for whatever reasons they have to be able to sell them.
So you said the smaller arm isnt really much of an upgrade, so I was thinking can I just upgrade the longer arms to m3 and get brand new smaller ones??
The front lower control arm will allow more negative camber because it is longer. It also has a ball joint instead of a rubber bushing, where it connects to the subframe.
The only difference in the front upper control arm is a slightly stiffer bushing in the M variant. You could in theory just buy a stiffer bushing for your existing front upper control arm, press it in, and have it be as stiff or stiffer than the M variant.
I went with the Monoball in my front upper control arm which is the pinnacle of what can be done to the E9x front suspension
@@midwestbmw1292 so would that actually be possible? But seems like what your saying it would jus be better to change the bushings in them.
I do need a bit of help I’m trying to find all the other ball/joints and bushes that will need replacing in the rear and for upgraded ones to, if any chance could give links to all the bushes I’d appreciate it. Except sway bars, so all control arms and trailing bushes. Please I’ve been struggling for hours trying to list them all out :(
@@drizzeysmith9699 if you look on all my video descriptions you’ll see my mod list and where I got the items. It’s not links but it will give you what you need. One thing I’ve added this summer that is not on my mod list is Rev Shift trailing arms. They have cut down on the amount of movement in the rear under hard acceleration.
Hey mate what manual have you got sitting on the bench.. been looking for a 135i n55 manual.. can't find one anywhere
It’s the Bentley manual for non M E9x chassis. I picked mine up on ebay used.
www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_nkw=Bmw+3+Series+2006-2010+325+328+330+335+Service+Repair+Manual+Hardcover+Like+New&_id=284105264004&
Dont buy them from bmw. They are made by TRW for bmw. The ones I got thru a parts supplier that sounds like a sea bird had the bmw emblem ground off for 1/2 the price
I thought the 335is had upgraded m3 control arms already ?
The 335is has the M sport suspension that came on the regular 335i with the M sport package. The 335is has the following items that make it standout
•N54 with increased output (better factory tune)
•DCT transmission option
•Better cooling through added transmission and oil coolers, and ducting.
•Performance Exhaust w/ black tips
•Unique rear valance
•Blacked out trim
•335is badging on exterior/interior
Is it worth upgrading the front ones at that point as well? And then getting m3 aftermarket coilovers front and rear?
I believe the front control arms yielded better results than the rears. The front M3 lower control arm adds extra negative camber over the stock non-M control arm. Also I added the Turner Monoball in the front upper control arm, which made the most noticeable difference.
Remember the only thing different about the front upper control arm (thrust arm) is the bushing material in it. The arm itself is identical across all RWD models on the E9x chassis. So you could in theory keep your existing thrust arm and simply replace the bushing in it with whatever aftermarket bushing/bearing you’d prefer. For me, I went with the top of the line Monoball.
@@midwestbmw1292 I have an m3 rear end on my 335is with m3 control arms in the rear and poly bushings. If I decided to keep the front control arms stock could I run aftermarket m3 coilovers front and rear. Or would I have to change the front control arms to M3 ones in order for the coilovers to be compatible.
As long as you have the COMPLETE M3 rear suspension, including the lower control arm (spring perch) then the rears will mount for sure. The fronts will likely mount but may require different end links, I’m assuming you could get away without running the M3 front control arms but I wouldn’t if I were going that route. I would go with coilovers developed for a 335i as there are plenty of great options out there to choose from without any of the unknowns.
@@midwestbmw1292 So 335i coilovers are compatible with the m3 rear end that I have? I could simply just get 335i coilovers and be done?
You’d need to switch the lower control arm (spring perch) back to the 335i version and the rear 335i coil over kit will bolt right up to the M3 rear suspension. The M3 rear shock uses an eyelet style mount at the bottom, whereas the 335i doesn’t. That’s the reason you’d have to switch back to the 335i perch, because of how the lower rear shock mounts. Everything else is the same.
In order to get an “M3 quality” mounting point you could buy AKG lower shock mount, which has a spherical bearing in it. That’s what I have on mine.
Hey, what book are you working from there?
Bentley manual.
Your car was awd? I have a e92 335xi and I was always wondering if these will fit the rear
I no longer have my other 335i, which was AWD. The X-Drive cars have the exact same rear suspension setup as RWD 335i, so any rear suspension components that fit a RWD car will also fit an AWD variation. The front suspension is the only area that differs.
@@midwestbmw1292 thank you....
it says 335is. IS wasn't offered in awd
do these fit for E39?
E9x chassis only.
@@midwestbmw1292E8x too
The m3 parts are better in every way