Christianity, Covid & Transformation - Paul Kingsnorth in conversation with Mark Vernon
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- čas přidán 7. 02. 2022
- What might Christianity have for us today? How might it stories still speak? Where to find what’s right in the tradition?
I was delighted to speak with Paul Kingsnorth, whose substack and other writings since his conversion to Christianity, are helping to galvanise a new debate about religion in our society.
We explore the need for more than cultural Christianity and its moral imperatives, to ask about its almost lost mystical side, and where and how that might be found.
That matters not only for us as individuals but for our culture. It might transformation our sense of being individuals, fear of death and desire for more.
Christianity might be good news once again, especially for a time of wandering in the wilderness.
For more on Paul Kingsnorth - www.paulkingsnorth.net
For more on Mark Vernon - www.markvernon.com - Zábava
0:40 The difficulty of being a Christian today
2:45 The draw of monastic and mystical forms of Christianity
9:20 The opportunity of now and connecting with the divine vision
17:28 Finding living traditions of Christianity that free
21:10 The religious genius of capitalism and living the life of the kingdom
28:51 The place of death in culture and machine consciousness
36:47 Myths as “likely stories”, helping us cope with risk and uncertainty
43:26 Different types of power alive today, one that forces, one that draws
53:14 Beyond the “bad Romans” - understanding what Christianity had in its origins
1:03:18 The image of God and the meaning of wilderness and exodus
1:09:15 Our destination and a Christian story fit for today
When I see the names Paul Kingsnorth & Mark Vernon I click.
I could listen to both of you, esp. together, for hours! Thank you!
The West is dying for want of a better story - how we retell the Christian story matters and how we live it matters more - a brilliant conversation between two brilliant men passionate about their faith - Thanks Mark and Paul for this dia logus
Can we retell the Christian story? In many ways it's so environmentally damaging. I came here for he en
Can we retell the Christian story? In many ways it's so environmentally damaging. I came here for Paul Kingsnorth and I find it so interesting how he has become a Christian. I will see if Mark Vernon has anything else to say on the subject but I'm generally not finding much on the subject.
Paul, our parish in WA state, USA, helped support the monastery in the Hebrides you mentioned. One of our own is a novice monk there. So beautiful to know you’re plugged in with them. ❤️☦️❤️ Glory to God for all things.
I have really started to look forward to your content Mark. Your background allows you to talk to people with an appreciation from many angles. You and Kingsnorth together was a rare treat--I sent it to my millennial nieces. We need leaders like you two helping us through the desert. Thank you.
A really great conversation. Thank you for sharing your insights and knowledge.
The (spirit) of this conversation was reluctant to finish - and I completely understand! The topics were very relevant to where we all are in terms of our longing for the true, the meaningful, the heart-full - the divine! You are excellent companions on this journey! Your musings and discoverings are illuminating, I wish you could come together more often in this format! Thank you!
Another fine conversation. Many thanks to you, Mark Vernon.
A wonderful conversation.
This was a great conversation. You touched on a lot of things I've been contemplating, specifically: the power of narrative or myth, the need for connection with saints/church fathers and transformative practices within Christianity, and the importance of being able to "live in two worlds at once" as Ram Dass used to say. In my own journey, I grew up Christian, turned away for awhile, then came back to the faith after having a powerful mystical experience. I then had to find a way to come back to Christianity which meant finding a very different version of it than what I grew up with, which was a very conservative evangelical Protestant form of Christianity and which I found severely lacking as a mystic. I think Christianity has a lot more to offer to humanity that what we've seen so far but it needs to be a transformative Christianity.
Hey, Justin. If I may ask, what Christianity did you find yourself in? I'm on a somewhat similar path, and I struggle with it so I'm interested in how other people found their paths back to Christ.
@@MrSofuskroghlarsen well I'm not part of any specific sect. I recommend checking out the work of Richard Rohr like his book The Divine Dance to get an idea of what a different perspective of Christianity can look like.
@@justinbirkholz7814 thank you for your reply. I’ve also found Richard Rohr (and the other Center for Action and Contemplation teachers such as Cynthia Bourgeault and James Finley) to be richly inspiring. If you have the chance, listen to CAC’s offering ‘Following the Mystics through the Narrow Gate’. James Finley’s talks, particularly his last in this series, still bring me to a different place and return me to earth with new eyes and a new dedication to service.
@@MrSofuskroghlarsen I’m chiming in with another experience. Going to Findhorn back in the eighties did it for me. The experience was life-changing. I realized with the help of some very wise individuals there that if I looked deeply enough I could find everything I needed within my original faith. I read David Spangler’s work and then found Richard Rohr, too. From there, Cynthia Bourgeault and James Finley. Ilia Delio. I, a Quaker, married a non attending Catholic and we raised our children in the Episcopal church. I’m still seeking a welcoming and nonpartisan Christian church since moving to a different state. It can be difficult ..
My life in a nutshell
36:14 - I really related to what you were expressing here Mark in the telling of ‘likely’ stories. This prelapsarian state; an available, attainable space to occupy and embrace the myth and mystery of the ineffable in order to contend with it. A way to become ‘unstuck’ so to say, opening one up.
Perhaps the contentedness of such a space is where English Christian’s now reside?
And in relation to stories in general, it seems to me, that all the great story tellers understand this. Always leaving enough space to stand back and attempt to fill in the gaps for oneself and so becoming a part of it. The hours, days, years we are left pondering these great works of Art which propel us onward.
Thank you Mark and Paul.
Wonderful chat. Thank you both. This has given me some food for thought at a time in my life when I am seeking direction and guidance.
When you started discussing issues related to COVID I initially felt a sudden readiness to disagree with whatever you were about to say but you were both careful enough to speak past the noise and it got through to me in a very positive way.
Thanks for a stimulating and intelligent conversation
Fascinating discussion, thank you both. In relation to morality, I would point out that the only freedom Our Lord spoke of was freedom from sin. Ne Timeas ✝️.
Thank you both for this conversation, unknotted many threads I've been following through this wasteland/ desert/ maze of Words. It is my sense to that the Myth for our time is one of Return, and through that Transformation. God Speed x
When I hear you mentioning the ethical dimension of Christianity being the fruit rather than the root, I'm reminded of something Iain McGilchrist mentioned a few times about trying to acquire happiness rather than being content with the fact that happiness is a byproduct of some other primary activity. In other words, the implicit is enfolded in the activity and thus it will manifest rather than it being a definite thing that one can grasp and manipulate for utilitarian purposes (selling etc.). The grasping tendency of the left hemisphere comes to mind in contrast to the dynamically coupled responsive nature of the right hemisphere.
"Rushing into action, you fail. Trying to grasp things, you loose them." --Lao Tzu
Great point - and the nature of the left hemisphere runs through so many of the themes in this interesting discussion. Control, manipulation, strict materialism, turning the world into a machine - all descriptions of the excesses of the LH.
Jesus: I am the vine
You are the branches
Without me you can do nothing.
If we do not take time to connect to Jesus... we die spiritual
We start to do in our own strength.
We need everyday to drink out of the well with pure water... his words... to grow... in his image.
All for one and one for all. Being the 41st commenter I couldn't resist... This was a great conversation. Thank you Mark for helping me understand Barfield better. I have yet to dive into any of his texts yet, but I know I need to study him. Your video explaining the eolian harp speaks greatly to me because Coleridge's poem of the same name is one of my favorite romantic poems. There seems to be a through line here within Christ's message that is coming into focus for me. If you give up everything in a sense you will run into forms that are eternal. What is temporal will become clearer in the mind. I was trying to tie this to understanding music, but I'm having difficulty in articulating.
Do you know CS Lewis talk entitled Transposition on music (which I talk about in my Christianity/Barfield book)? gutenberg.ca/ebooks/lewiscs-transposition/lewiscs-transposition-00-h.html
Thank you for this dialogue. It touched on so many things I’ve been thinking about and wrestling with. To your closing comments: yes, was extremely useful to me!
Thank you for this conversation I really needed this☘
Paul and Mark, please read anything by Walter Wink!!!! You have this amazing opportunity to influence so many people and there is a need to move inwatd through christian mysticism but that enlightenment must manifest itself in helping to bring the kingdom "on earth as it is in heaven."
Dear Mark, I wonder if you are aware of the work of Don Hoffman. It would be extremely interesting to see the two of you discussing his discoveries of the absence of not only matter, but also time and space (and 'space-time' whatever that means).
There is an inner life that must be distinct from the collective to go from being in a pagan collective to a Christian collective. The modern west has strengthened the identity of the inner life that allows us to separate from groups.
The primary concern I have about christianity is its emphasis on the male character in the narratives.
I mean, i see no reason why God be referred to as male, nor why the 'hero' need be male also in the character, Christ.
Even the Holy spirit is male, and also angels.
All there is as female is Mary and a scattering of women throughout the bible.
Hi Lady Faye it's true God is referred to with male pronouns but as he is not embodied indeed as he is beyond this world (both transcendent and immanent somehow), I think in a sense he doesn't have gender at all.. I heard one time the danger of calling him female would be it would lead to pantheism because it would exaggerate his immanence. As a woman I did use to have a problem with this patriarchal conception but I don't anymore and I have a lot of peace about it. It does seem to correspond with reality and make sense.
I like to read up on female figures in Christianity, I got to choose a topic for my recent school assignment and I am working on a timeline of the Christian Roman empire through women's lives. My patron saint is Saint Paula and I got to learn about her, as well as St Macrina sister to the Cappadocians, St Helena, many martyrs like Perpetua and Felicity. It is true traditional christianity is patriarchal I think, but I read the male role to be very challenging and the whole arrangement to be quite beautiful. A husband leader of a family is to be willing to lay his life down for his wife like Christ does for his church. I do think a lot of men in history thought women were in practice "inferior" but I don't think God thinks that in any way. Humans are fallen. We are ALL made in God's image, it's just this created world falls into certain patterns that make sense.
Sorry I rambled but I couldn't help but just share a little of my thoughts. The way I see it, the Theotokos Mary emphasized her humility in her song (here is an Orthodox setting dce.oca.org/resource/330/ ). God lifts up the lowly. We women do have a bit of built in humility as we are in general physically weaker but concomitantly have other beautiful qualities that go with that. I think in Christianity unlike maybe other worldviews this is potentially rather room for enoblement than negativity. Sorry, I'll stop now :)
The importance of distance, Yes!! This culture of Immediate Explicitness, Left Hemisphere if you like, is so 'in your face' - asking for opinion or 'where do you stand' on this or that. We so need distance, standing back, pause, Silence (or recovering (uncovering?) silence) our culture is always On, but without telos. Apologies ffor the ramble (from an Anglican Priest albeit now in a non CofE context. (Actually speaking in the antopides of being an Anglican Priest can often open doors, and curiosity.)
Ex-Catholic/ Ex-Protestant here, but still very much in the faith of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
I agree with Paul that Orthodoxy has it's problems. I was becoming attracted to it until I saw it had the same basic pitfalls as Catholicism and Protestantism. I also looked into Deism, Buddhism, Taoism, Advaitism, Universalism, et al, and that just about only left Gnosticism for anything with structure, fellowship and teachings, but it also has some very big issues.
I'm not one who does well by "going it alone", and I just cannot find anything healing and transformative that isn't self-contradicting.
John 11: 25 - 27.
paradox is part of life and truth
Look inside.
@@taradalik1405 I already do that and have had extremely profound experiences, but it's also a form of "going it alone", which isn't sustainable for me personally 24/7/365. We are actually told in the epistles not to try doing that.
@@doriesse824 The answer you seek on which line of Christianity is better for you will be found when you look inside.
I have thought for a long time that, given the noise, distraction, and frenetic pace of life today, the only completely sane people are in monasteries.
at 24.40...'terror of death'....yes....humanity needs to lose its fear of death, and accept all the implications of that.
1:06 Paul talks about our desert experience. John Behr refers to our Martyrdom. Mark talks about leaning into this. Really important
I really enjoyed this interview but I wish Mark had pushed Paul Kingsnorth a bit harder about how he deals with the more patriarchal aspects of Orthodoxy - misogyny, homophobia etc. Very hard to follow a traditional path when these obstacles are so unavoidable.
I get it. I fought it for much of the 1980s and 1990s in the Church of England. But you have to watch out for the “wastes of the moral law”, as Blake put. Too much on morality and justice wastes you, as much as it wastes churches.
@@PlatosPodcasts thank you. I have been contemplating joining a church myself, after many years within Buddhist institutions - and am interested in the Orthdodox tradition - but I don't want to make myself vulnerable to a moral system that might seek to condemn me. For all its flaws our society has made some progress in its attitudes to women and race and sexuality - et al - and I value that. I guess I am interested to know what liberal-minded people like you and Paul make of your experience of less-liberal institutions, and whether it is possible to sort the wheat from the chaff whilst standing inside those institutions (and how easy it is just to stand). It's difficult to avoid the wastes of the moral law when one is the subject of them; but I take your point and am contemplating it.
@@iansturgess4768 Thanks for the comment, Ian. I couldn't resist replying. It's a big topic and I can't say much. I will say there are many Orthodox churches - each is autocephalous and of course locally things will vary too. I don't have much experience beyond my church here in Ireland, but I can say I've never seen any 'misogyny' in it, for example. That's a strong word, not borne out by anything I've encountered. Many of my Orthodox friends are women, and they have more traditional attitudes, certainly, than liberal men or women in the West; but there's nothing 'misogynist' about that. Most of the world shares them, after all.
Sexuality - well, the Orthodox church is traditional rather than liberal, so again it's the original Christian morality that is taught and practiced. Increasingly that's a hard fit in a rapidly changing West. But the Orthodox churches are not liberal in that sense, and I appreciate that, given the increasingly dire state of the wider culture. There are plenty of liberal churches around if you're looking for one: it's a marketplace now. As Nikola says below, the path is hard for us all - we're all challenged in our assumptions by it, especially if we are Western individualists. I can only say again that my church experience has been one of love and acceptance for a wide range of people whilst still cleaving to the traditional teachings.
@@Peekay72 thank you for your frank response. It is certainly a big topic - one of the reasons that I found Buddhism a relatively easy place to be is that it wasn't a particularly big topic there, or didn't seem to be in the versions that I received in their Western translations (which I think are coming unstuck now in part because they haven't dealt with cultural baggage) . I'm sorry to have used the word misogyny - it is too strong. I am interested though to know if you do value the apparent advances our culture has made in liberating groups that it has previously oppressed, or whether those freedoms are somehow tied in with the decline that you see. Perhaps too big a topic for this forum. Thanks again.
@@iansturgess4768 Thanks Ian also. Funnily enough, I don't find any of this to be a big topic inside my church, which is very welcoming to everyone who comes, Orthodox or not, Christian or not, man or woman. If I'd found it a hive of intolerance in this way I would not have joined it. I have found it overwhelmingly driven by a love of Christ and a desire to live as he taught, as well as a commitment to ancient Orthodox teaching, which at its heart is a mystical path. Maybe this is what Mark means by not focusing on 'morality and justice' too much. Those things matter, but I agree they are not by any means either the heart or the point.
In terms of 'liberation' - well, as a human and a Christian it's clear to me that everyone is created in God's image, be they man or woman, straight or gay, Christian or not, and I try to treat them that way, as all Christians (and indeed humans) should. This is very much the teaching of the Church Fathers also. But yes - that one is a very big topic for a CZcams comments section!
DY-NO-MITE🧨!!!
The danger at 55:00 of downplaying the moral burden of Christianity is that you end up having no objective standard. Things are inevitably relativised in order to cater to people not feeling too bad that they've fallen short of any standard. It's fine saying that we should want to live a certain way, but we also need to be aware that sometimes we will not want what is objectively good because it can be hard and involve suffering. If we reject everything we don't currently want, we actually do ourselves a disservice. Usually the greatest progress comes precisely from the discomfort. The moral standards provide a clear and unambiguous indication of what direction we should be struggling in and where we are falling short in a way that is helpful and salvific. The commandments are given to us from an eternal perspective for our own good. For example fornication is a sin, not because God wants us not to have fun, but because it is an idol that destroys genuine communion and love. We can't just tell ourselves comforting but false platitudes about how God doesn't care about sex (not that this was done in this conversation, but this type of stance is quite common with people who want to reject the moral standards of Christianity).
Hello Nikola. Thanks for the comment. I do agree with you actually, especially about the importance of not relativising. I took this question from Mark not to be a suggestion that Christian morality doesn't matter (it does, of course, for the reasons you state) but that it's not enough on its own. Some Western churches have deteriorated into a place where the moral teachings - the 'thou shalt nots' - seem to be all there is left. Whereas, as you say, these teachings and standards exist for a greater purpose. If people can understand that purpose, the teachings make more sense. But I agree that the work is hard, often. The gate is strait and the path is narrow. I'm Orthodox, as I said here, at least partly because I want to operate within those rules, and to know what they are and why, not to see them watered down or abandoned because modernity is uncomfortable with them.
Hi @@Peekay72, I enjoyed the conversation between you and Mark. I wasn't actually sure that Mark was implying anything controversial on that particular point I highlighted, it was more a case that I thought that the statement may give the wrong impression to a certain type of person. My personal observation is that in the case of the Western churches, there are very few "thou shalt nots" left. Instead they seem desperate to persuade wider society how there really are no non-negotiable "thou shalt nots", to the point of being embarrassed by them. They seem to want to attract people by persuading them of the lack of any need to sacrifice or change. The wider secular culture on the otherhand seems to use the "thou shalt nots" to bash what remains of those Western churches and put them into a defensive posture. If they comply and water everything down, they are praised. If they did not comply, they know they would encounter an isolating narrative that they are unreasonable, unrealistic, uncharitable, dated, not keeping up with the times etc. And so we have a vicious self-reinforcing race to the bottom that has been playing out for decades. No side is actually prepared to dig in and stand up for the "thou shalt nots".
@@nikola9348 I understand, thanks. This sounds like a good summary of Western Christianity, and one of many reasons I became Orthodox - it is quite prepared to dig in. I think that Western culture generally at this point in time cannot abide rules, structures, hierarchies, history or anything which implies personal suffering or sacrifice. We are very far down the road to expressive individualism and self-as-God. For all these reasons, traditional Christianity has been collapsing for a long time. And yet paradoxically, it is for these same reasons that more and more people seem to be seeking out stronger and more serious versions of the faith, which don't compromise with culture.