“Educated” Author: College Is Unaffordable and Unimaginable | Amanpour and Company
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- čas přidán 8. 02. 2022
- Many aspiring college students in the U.S. are thwarted by the astronomical cost of a degree. New York Times bestselling author Tara Westover shares her shocking childhood and early experience with poverty in her memoir "Educated," which took the world by storm. She didn’t set foot inside a classroom until she was 17, and though she is now successful, she says she is not a poster child for the American dream. Westover speaks with Michel Martin about why she believes universities should function less like businesses and more like schools
Originally aired on February 9, 2022.
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Amanpour and Company features wide-ranging, in-depth conversations with global thought leaders and cultural influencers on the issues and trends impacting the world each day, from politics, business and technology to arts, science and sports. Christiane Amanpour leads the conversation on global and domestic news from London with contributions by prominent journalists Walter Isaacson, Michel Martin, Alicia Menendez and Hari Sreenivasan from the Tisch WNET Studios at Lincoln Center in New York City.
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“One of the main things having money gives you is the ability to not think about money. So you can think about other things “
So true
Well said.
I noticed that line too. She is wise beyond her years. Glad she broke out of her upbringing and stretched her wings.
I am grateful my parents didn't have beliefs that would have kept me out of school. I loved school for most of my life, although at one point I stopped paying for education and started learning by doing. And a few visits to hospitals probably saved my life as a child, so I am grateful for that as well.
The free time to think or do whatever we want or just do nothing is one of life's most precious gifts. Not things, but just free time. Since we only get about 4,000 weeks of human life on this Earth, each week, each day, each hour becomes a thing of precious potential.
Denying people sleep so they can earn $1 more per hour in order to eat is obscene. Whatever "values" we think we're teaching the next generation we're simply being cruel and more than a little nuts.
or you could be autistic and scared of the government so you refuse disability so you live in perpetual poverty from childhood but also having wealthy family all the while not working and therefore , having all the time in the world to think. about.EVERYTHING, and as it turns out, we're all being lied to and fucked by the elites in so many ways it's incomprehensible to the average mind so really, what is the oint when they dont want to hear it?
Hence, the reason America needs a Guaranteed Basic Income.
*Ppl should be paid by Corporations for our Data. Each person should get $2K per month which givens them a $24K springboard to move into the middle class while allowing most ppl to stay out of poverty.
*This is not Socialism bc Companies are paying for a product. It is a line item expense.
*Americans should be allowed to be "anonymous" if they don't want to participate.
*BTW, in pilot programs, families did go to work. There were fewer evictions, families purchased better food, children were more stable and did better in school. Ppl purchased used cars and applied for higher paying jobs. Students and Parents with small children were out of the work force temporarily.
@@alanmcrae8594 Martin Luther King suggested a Guaranteed Basic Income to resolve the poverty issue.
@@cesmith48 That was before corporations were traded as humans.
Universities shouldn't be run like a business. Health care (I'm a physician) sure as hell shouldn't be run like a business. Until the general public realizes that unchecked capitalism is ruthless and amoral, well...it will get worse before we see real change. Rock bottom here we come!
Absolutely! In the head with a hammer 🔨.
I agree 100% and when you have to pay back massive debt you have to chose jobs that pay the most as apposed to jobs that will help others less fortunate.
What makes you think you are dealing with "capitalism" and why do you describe
it as "unchecked"? What should it be checked by? And what other system would you
designate as one that would qualify as capable of being allowed to be "unchecked"?
@@GARRY3754 I not sure what question you imagine you answered...want to explain or try again?
💯
I agree. (I'm a Boomer professor at a major public U.) The biggest growth in higher ed has been administration. Admin would say that they make for better learning and take the admin burden off instructors. The opposite happens. I'm spending much more time on admin than 30 years ago, and student learning has not increased, even with better tech. Let's start by taking the profit margin out of student loans, freezing hires to admin, and putting "public good" back in education.
While we're at it, let's lose the academic tenure system. Tenured professors are training graduate students for careers in academia they will never have (something said professors are very much aware of).
@@buzabuba7326 dude, tenured prof here -- we are already losing the tenure system -- every year more courses are being taught by sessional lecturers -- who are paid a pittance and have no job security at all. In my department, profs are being replaced 1 for 3 (for every three tenured profs who retire, one tenure-track junior prof is hired.) Without tenured profs, the only permanent employees on campus with a stake in the university will be the administration and the cleaning staff. Is that what you really want?
[btw, tenure just means you can only be fired for cause -- academic freedom means you cannot be fired for what you teach. But if you teach or do research badly, you can absolutely be fired. Universities just tend to do it quietly and would rather let the bad prof resign.]
Here in Switzerland we pay $500 per semester. I don’t understand why a university is beyond a normal studies
I live in a third-world country and ALL state universities don't charge a tuition. That extends all the way to even state-run medical schools. The problem is that in the U.S. they let the cost of education rise to absurd levels because of the lack of regulation and letting rampant capitalism dictate the cost of education.
In America education, much like all of our basic needs are treated like commodities rather than rights or services. The system is ran to make as much profit as possible. High cost is a feature, not a bug.
@@goofusmaximus1482 Indeed, and I think that's really unfortunate. I believe that health care and education should be made as accessible as possible and not be treated as commodities for the privileged. The former is especially close to my heart as I'm a medical doctor by profession, and one whose schooling from grade school up to medical school was paid for entirely by the government.
@@Vendemiair the majority of Americans across the political spectrum are IN FAVOR of of such things. It's the investor class who benefit from the status quo who will fight tooth and nail to prevent that from happening.
They want people to be in debt. this is the kind of debt the financial institutions can bank on. many places don't even allow for declaration of bankruptcy to erase educational debt. They want to have less public subsidies for education and pass on that cost to the public. Unfortunate part is the cost rises to unacceptable levels because of excessive administration increase in the recent decades. Basically, instead of a basic right to education, it's a business (cue all the sociopathic tendencies that comes with growing a business)
I was the first person in my family to go to college. It took me 20 years to pay it off. It was loans or nothing because my parents could not afford to fund my education. Was it worth it? Maybe...but not really. I HATED the career I ended up in but made such little money and worked such long hours that I had to keep deferring loan payments - hence it taking 20 years to pay off. Now at 48 I have finally put myself on a better career path. Public colleges should be free for most and low cost for the rest.
In many democracies public college is free, just like public high school.
What's your new career path?
@@kenbranaugh8251 Piano technician. In fact, I opened my business a week ago and had my first "paid" tuning today. I didn't actually charge the client, however, because the piano had so many repair issues that it needs a piano rebuilder, which is not what I am studying. So yeah - piano technician. No college for this career (though there are a few college options for this career path but not many). I signed up to take online classes with a well-known and respected piano technician, found a mentor who is a college piano technician for free, and self-studied a lot. Still am. I couldn't do this, however, without a spouse who is able to pay the bills while I spend my time in self-training. It's been a great journey!
@@polarpalmwv4427 oh yes. I work at Unitarian church in Bethesda and know the piano tuner cool job
@@kenbranaugh8251 Wow - Martinsburg, WV here - not close but certainly not far from you! :)
As a person who went to Brigham Young University at the same time as Tara Westover, the reason she had cheap tuition was because 90% of the costs were paid for by tithing of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints. I am no longer a Mormon myself but it really goes to prove what a community can do for their youth even if it's through an institution.
At present I am doing a BYU online pre college program. I am not Mormon but I am grateful and impressed by their commitment to education.
As a mom helping to pay for two BYU students, I am so grateful for the affordable tuition! And the online BYU high school courses have helped many kids in our Midwest community.
My family was that rung on the middle class that made too much for any financial assistance. So college was out of reach. I'm 28, just bought a house in the Bay Area of CA, and have no student loan debt because I looked at university and elected to enter the trades instead of higher education. I was in my orientation for university when I got the job offer. Best decision I ever made.
Good for you ☀️☀️☀️
Then why bother watching this? To feel sad about what you missed? To brag about you? I'm glad we have people in trades, but that's not what most of us want for our kids.
@@luv2charlie Because confirmation bias is a hell of a drug. I still want higher education and a degree but that, in the current market, is not attainable for me. I wish it was.
@@evanfelch7689 you didnt miss anything. I have several graduate degrees (Phd too) and I can tell you that higher education is basically a scam. You can learn that same thing from online courses and there is basically no difference between a top univ vs one ranked #200 - same curriculum. If I redid my life now (with my mind at 48) I would do what you did.
I also HATED what I studied and hated my jobs afterwards. It was all done b/ my parents made me to do it, so I have a good income. The stress and dissatisfactions piled up and now since 45 yrs I am having all kinds of physical issues, plus my hair is all white etc. If you do something that you like (at least not hate) and you are content with the people around you and that job, that's all you need. All the rest is paper on the wall - I am actually ashamed of my degrees...Cheers!
Hey Evan, if I had it to do all over again, knowing what I know now, I would have stayed in the trades (I worked as a telephone company splicer and lineman rather than go to college. Many of the trades cannot yet be automated, and that's the biggest transition that is happening now to many jobs.
This interview is both revealing and confirming for me. So many themes! One thing is certain: we definitely use our version of capitalism as a weapon against the poor. Regardless of racial group, poor people are systemically kept down. That is a whole series of interviews by itself. I’m glad she spoke her truth, choosing to see her life for what it was, instead of through the heavily skewed lens of her family’s narrative.
Yes, well said.
I agree
She 1st learned the mis-info of her little world
When she entered mainstream society
Then she saw through open eyes the mis-info used in mainstream society to enslave us.
Our capitalism
Except it ain’t “our”
It’s “theirs”
Their oligarchy
“We” are the the prey
“Our” is a extremely subtle form of propaganda
Just like “the’
“The” economy
It is “their” economy
The stock market, & the GDP is a measure of the richest .001% of American’s economy
The owners of America
“We” are robbed from the top
Doubt me?
Just run the numbers
One of the best ways to understand the society/group/family you live in, is through an outsider eyes
Tara Westover's story is informative and she touches on very important issues for our times. Her story of the father and daughter who just closed the browser is sad on so many levels. The loss of hope and one's dreams when it comes to educational aspirations because of lack of money is a consequence of treating education like a commodity rather than a benefit to society. A culture that creates inequality on so many levels as the US does when it comes to access to education and/or healthcare is only weaking its own social fabric.
Exactly
Why do you think America is flooded with guns? It's partially because nobody is "secure" in a country that is so economically punitive towards workers and so gratuitously over-compensatory for the tiny fraction of the population who are already obscenely rich. Nobody can feel like a "winner" until they act out in murderous rage. The working class is angry because the harder they work the less they get for their labor and the rich are angry because they can't have it ALL handed to them on a silver platter. Love is anathema in such a destructive culture. Hate fills the void. Guns do the killing.
I worked in higher education for 20 years. One of the reasons I decided to change careers was the unconscionable piling of debt on students and their families.
Good for you.
When I went to college 45 years ago, you could work a minimum wage job all summer and during breaks, and (barely) pay for the dorm/food/books/tuition. That was no car, no holidays, no other luxury expenses, but one could do it. Just a rough guess, but today you'd need a minimum wage job, plus you'd have to borrow several years, maybe 6+, of post-graduation salary to complete a basic degree. That says a lot about the cost of college, the value of the degree, and the lack of an increase in minimum wage.
The average student loan today is around 30K. I haven't seen any updated salary numbers for this year but the average salary of a college educated person is probably around 60K. This is what it was pre-pandemic.
College is certainly more expensive today than it was in 1960. The number of people who had a college degree in 1960 was roughly 8% of the population. Today, it's around 33%, so a 4X increase in the number of students graduating. With the increase in demand, colleges have increased tuition, book sellers have increased books, and rents have increased (whether you go to college or not).
That being said, without a solid manufacturing industry, there simply aren't enough jobs for middle education-middle income households to serve as a real alternative to anyone not wanting college-required occupations, the military, or service jobs.
@@y1e2t34i Universities are NOT Wall street for PROFIT businesses'. Increase in demand SHOULDN'T mean increase in tuition. Care to share stats on the increase salary of a CEO in recent decades compared to the average minimum wage? Same CEOs who sit on University boards? What a coincidence ! Good luck running a society full of useless MBAs who can't even explain the basic priciples of a toilet.
When I went to college 50 years ago--okay I know that was quite a while back--a credit hour was $15. Now at my PUBLIC state college it is around $460. That's a pretty big increase and I really don't believe the level of knowledge that you need to learn has increased accordingly--maybe science but I guess nobody believes in THAT anymore. ..
@@gennaterra If nobody can fix the toilets we are all going down the draIn.
She is SO impressive. Her book was great. Reminds me of my life and college. Relatively poor, didn't know about financial aid, and had to work so hard to get through college. But things were even more affordable in my day.
An excellent and genuine articulation of the reality of the barriers to a good education for so many people.
So much for the "Land of Opportunity."
If it weren't for the Pell grant, I'd be living on the streets. It makes all the difference for those of us whom have suffered through poverty.
As someone who once worked in higher ed, hoping to be part of the solution and help my fellow underclasses after I graduated, what hurt me the most was processing collection checks. These former students were paying off debts from almost a decade prior in $20-50 installments, which would probably take them another 2-3 decades to pay off, if they made it that far. And, for some crazy-ass reason, student loan debt is NOT cleared through traditional bankruptcy, at least not without incurring EVEN MORE DEBT. Meanwhile, massive cuts were being made to instruction, and the administration was paying itself *hundreds of thousands of dollars* more every year, even go so far as looting its endowment AND its goddamn PPP loan... That made me realize that, if colleges and universities are going to be run strictly like businesses, making education into a luxury good, then society itself was going to suffer. I thought I could be part of the solution, but clearly I was wrong, and I'm glad I left.
Keep talking about what you see.
They are destroying your society because education is the backbone of a nation. Imagine in Germany education is free including undergraduate university.
Unlike J.D. Vance, Westover is true to her roots, critical of the education system, and empathy for low income students today.
She will probably be going the same direction as JD and will soon run for office. Watch this space.
JD Vance's book was overhyped. Also quite disingenuous. I can't tell in the case of this woman, but I'm not too positive about it.
Oh JD Vance isn't true to his roots because he's not an extreme leftist? He happens to be a white male who wasn't privileged, which contradicts the narrative. Plus, he (gasp) pulled himself up by his bootstraps. Total phony, right?
@@sandylewis8897 Nope! Not because he's on the right, but Because JD contradicts himself both in his book as well as in his political positions shifting for obvious expediency.reasons.
I don't think he actually "pulled himself up by bootstraps. If you read the book, you learn that his family was not actually poor, just that they immigrated from the hills. His parents had good jobs and enough money to care for him. They were just prone to acting like Karens in public, and we're not highly educated. But they were not "poor"
Thank you so much for posting this interview. I was particularly stuck by this statement: "When something is not within your reach, it's just human nature to devalue that thing." That is so true. Thank you for discussing this important topic!
Sometimes people need to stop looking at individual stories of success and thinking "that's possible". Instead they need to look at the statistical figures and ask "is it probable?"
hear hear
My dad had three daughters and we knew from an early age that he expected us to go to college, a place that he had not had the privilege of attending. Thankfully, we were all bright enough to be accepted to a state university and the price was affordable. It was an experience that changed even my outlook and I think everyone should have the opportunity to go to college without being saddled with unending debt. On the other hand, we need to provide ways to have a good life even without a college degree. It isn’t for everyone.
That used to be good union jobs in manufacturing.
@@YoYo_Ma does it mean do the shit jobs if you don't go to college.
@@joedias7946 no it does not, but a low skilled job should not mean low pay. A person should earn a living wage.
@@joedias7946 no it does not!!! My son is an UAW assembly worker in MI. He is paid a very good wage and no student debt. He started community college but left at 19 to go to work.
When other European and Asian countries where College are mostly free and affordable, US has made it discouraging for people to pursue higher education. Hence easier to control their minds.
This piece resonated so much. 😔 My daughter was accepted to her 1st choice university that is offering her a partial scholarship which only covers 25%. Neither her nor I can afford the remaining 40k annually and even as she looks for other scholarships to supplement their offer, the window is closing. I agree that higher education is the way to improve one's quality of life but its becoming harder to convince young people that this is true.
I hope you can get it figured out. All the best to you and your daughter 💪🏽
@@kimthomas781 Thank you very much for your kind words
Unfortunately, the dye has been cast.
Your Daughter may want to take a Gap Year
and volunteer with Americorps. Look into City Year. She'll receive a Grant of $5,555 which could be enough to get her through 2 years of Community College.
* Take her Core Requirements then transfer to a 4 yr Public University /College.
* Look at Marianne Ragins books on Scholarships and there is a Scholarship Workshop. College 101.
*Read: The Proximity Principle by Ken Coleman. Career positioning
* Look for Co-operative Education Programs
Work-Colleges, Paid Internships, Awards,
Rewards, Scholarships, Grant's, Pathway
Programs.
* Have her download: Borrowed Future Podcast.
NEVER: take a Parent Loan
Student Loans cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. They will ruin your future and her future.
I was “forced” to go to UGA instead of my dream school because my parents couldn’t afford it, and you know what? I turned out fine :). My tuition was covered by the HOPE Scholarship and my grad degree was paid for by AmeriCorps at another public school. My mom also got a PELL Grant since she was a single parent. There are a lot of opportunities, actually, but they require a lot of will, foresight and preparation (see ChooseFI’s podcast about the guy who got paid to go to college)... This doesn’t help your daughter now, but might be encouraging, I hope. At least in my field, usually, you just need *A* degree...
Sometimes, the breaking of a dream can be the start of a better future. The only problem is that this is a way that the class system is perpetuated, since the wealthy can go to their college of choice. Still, it’s not the end of the year yet. I’ll try to find that podcast and will post the link.
Maybe she would like to study in Europe. Many universities offer courses in English. Young people are welcomed with open arms in most European countries. Often the visit to the university is almost free. I wish you and your daughter good luck for the future.
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Putting college education out of reach makes the K-12 all the more important. If high school courses won’t teach you then how can we have a literate community.
We Don't. Just look at our congress. Ignorance is patriotism today
Thank you. A decent life shouldn't be reserved only for the exceptional. The fact that a few people can get through extraordinary difficulties doesn't justify making a minimally acceptable standard of living so hard to achieve for the non-exceptional.
Excellent conversation.
I could listen to this young woman talk 'till the cows come home (even if they're Republican cows). She's unguarded, modest, open-minded, humble, and empathetic. She has insight, and gives me a sliver of optimism about the future of the U.S. while watching a tsunami of bad news.
She has perfect teeth too 😁
Seems whiny to me.
@@Vendemiair I noticed that too. I think she took her money from her book and has had extensive dental work done. She looks very different from her previous interviews. Without checking the videos, my gut is telling me she used to speak much more closed mouth.
@@maryannebrown2385 I was intrigued and looked at older videos, the oldest one I found was 4 years ago. She had the same great teeth then, but I think just whiter for the more recent ones (or it could simply be the lighting).
Throughout the 1960s, I paid $120 a semester at The University of Michigan and $72 a quarter at the University of California--Berkeley, in-State residency. Yet 80% of faculty now are "adjunct" which means not proportionate pay to full-time salary, no insurance, no pension. The money is going into mega-salaries of executive administrators, and into ostentatious campus-building for local prestige and wealth. Business does not offer work in which higher education is needed and has changed academics to an apprenticeship the students pay for. This is the reason there are so many Americans who have become cultists of ignorance, placing our democracy in jeopardy.
40 years of Neoliberalism /class warfare built this .
Agreed.
My 12 year old read the book with me in 2021, partially because I was raised in an extreme evangelical family, and I was VERY lucky because my father’s side wasn’t evangelical but rather successful lawyers and one doctor, so I had some inspiration to work hard. I ended up with fairly large student loans but was very fortunate to meet a professor who wanted me to study under her in an Ivy League graduate school. So I typically slept only four hours a night once I got in that grad school, working very hard to take advantage of my great fortune to get in there. I can totally understand what Dr. Westover is saying. I always tell my son and my university students that my success was a combination of great luck and hard work. Both were necessary. I headed a program at a liberal arts college for several years in the States, and students needed 70K+ for tuition and board. Most had terrible debts.
May I ask what country you live in now? I’m just curious……
@@w.geoffreyspaulding6588 I teach in Japan after having taught in the States roughly twenty-five years. I study Japan and have a Japanese family so for me it’s great. Unfortunately, though, Japan also has the student loan system, unlike a lot of more progressive approaches in certain European countries.
I am so grateful to be living in a European country, where the healthy social structures of a democratic system and good governance allow us to live without the fear that seems to imbue American society.
@@timetraveler43 Absolutely! Better education systems, better medical care, and gun regulation. Japan is, for the most part, similarly progressive.
Another element that I don’t hear come up enough which your comment touched on. Kids shouldn’t have to forego so much sleep to be able to do well in college and earn a degree. Of course I pulled “all-nighters” to study or prepare a project, and there were plenty of nights staying up all night because sometimes that’s what kids that age do especially when living in dorms and off-campus group housing (and I wont touch on all the drinking that gets done by many college students). But a 19 or 20 year old sleeping four hours a night because they have to work while in school to afford tuition is just wrong.
I was only able to afford university because of the Pell grants I received, and it absolutely gave me the freedom to engage more with my classes and significantly cut back on the hours I had to work to cover the extra costs.
I also remember how difficult college applications were, and how adrift in a sea of bureaucracy I felt trying to navigate it all on my own. School didn’t help, my parents were working too many hours and didn’t know anything about the system enough to help anyway. It’s a lot to ask of kids, even those who aren’t struggling, and it says something about the system that there are so many companies that have popped up to help fill that gap for a price - to boost your GRE/ACT score, to help you write the best admission essays, etc etc.
The Pell grant paid for much of three years of my college. I lost it the fourth year because I made too much during my summer job after 2nd year. Funny, I worked in the cafeteria the prior semester so I'd have some money for a plane ticket and apartment for that job.
The Education System has become predatory mainly because the Government decided to underwrite Student Loans issued by Private Lenders.
Student Loans cannot be discharged in Bankruptcy which poured $T's of dollars into the system.
*Instead of sending the money directly to schools with a policy that made schools responsible for student matriculation, the money encumbered the Students, their Parent and Grandparents. America could take a cue from Germany's System.
In many european countries higher education is free.
Yess! And they enjoy an influx of the cleverest students from different countries who often stay after uni and strengthen their economies.
Talk about being sheltered and lied to. Smh! Her parents failed her but sounds like she was determined to get educated and wanted to develop a new prospective. Good for her.
You should read the book. It’s excellent. I think two other siblings managed to get out and get degrees and several did not.…..What different lives they now lead.
Amazing conversation! Thank you…this young person is worth listening to!
Thanks for tuning in!
So much human potential is just wasted.
Not wasted. Stolen. They are stealing the youth, vigor, and creativity of entire generations.
Corporate America needs a low wage, under educated, health-care dependent workforce, un-affordable housing, Netflix, and pizza. The entire U.S. economy is structured on it. Why people are loyal to an economic system or government or policy that opposes them is beyond me.
Corporation criminality never is interested in environment and living things in it. Misogynism is the underpinning of " economic theory" of mass murder,theft, rape to sell children, enslavement reproductive enslavement.
@@patriciarouse2801 ouch. yup corporations are to America's detriment
What an extraordinary journey this young lady has experienced. Her unusual upbringing was an asset in her quest to understanding the world. I am anxious to read her book. Blessings to her!
"Everything in my life at that time was about money...because I just didn't have any."
I started college in 1963. My mom had saved $500 to help me get started. That wasn't enough but I got a gov loan. I couldn't pay the loan. I changed schools and worked each day washing pots and pans in the kitchen and learned lots of cooking skills from the women I worked with. They also made sure I had food to eat. In my third year I worked from 4 pm to 4 am in a pizza and beer joint making pizza's and cleaning up. I didn't make enough money to pay my tuition and board. I made it 4 months before I was kicked out for not being able to get up in the morning for classes and. not having enough money to pay my school bills. I dropped out for several years when I worked as an underpaid clerk in a chemical laboratory. That was a very unpleasant experience filled with a residence with exposure to rats, hunger etc. But I did get to take a couple of night classes for a year and a half. I did save enough money to go back to school. I choose to get a degree in the shortest time period possible. My first 10 years after graduation was a constant struggle to work in a field with minimal financial rewards. I did manage to meet some people along the way that helped me better my job prospects. It did take me 30 years, but I did end up earning 3 Masters level degrees that in many was too little too late. I wanted to be a researchers. The only research I did was for my second Masters degree. My first was a written document to get awarded the degree. The third was a several years long internship. I may be an ingrate but I really was never able to live my dreams and goals. I was however able to earn enough money to retire. I earned a retirement annuity from three different and unrelated professions. I also still hold 4 professional State licenses to practice different professions. Unfortunately, now at 80 years of age, my life goals have changed to simply survive a cold winter and grow a garden for best foods.
Life rule #1 "Never take a loan you can't default on". That rule has served me well.
I had 3 jobs and full time school. I needed the pell grant and was weeks away of going to mexico for a semester to study Mayan art. Then without notice the school dropped the pell grant because to many were not paying it back.
I had to drop out.
I often wonder how my life would be different if that didn't happen.
later I found out that only 2% of people from my poverty background reach graduation, I felt a little better I made it as far as I did.
This makes no sense. Grants, by definition, aren't supposed to be paid back.
Pell grants do not demand payment back. They’re grants not loans. I should know. I got Pell Grant back in the day and it wasn’t a loan.
@@akiram6609 I was getting a loan too, that is what the school stopped
She’s brilliant, she should run for office, I’ll vote for her!
What a beautiful and eloquent lady.
She's absolutely right. State public universities need to be affordable. I went to University in the early to mid 90's and was able to work part-time, live at home, and get through school without debt.
Having to work part-time during school kept me from taking some opportunities offered to me (an archeological excavation abroad), but at least I was able to get a degree without debt.
It should be free. Like in Germany.
@@tamaliaalisjahbana9354 Free would be nice but seems like a bit of a pipe dream in a country that will you die if you can't afford medical care or dentistry. I've had friends that needed Gofundme for vital dentistry to prevent sepsis.
@@RandomJane104 Yes, you are right. A step at a time. But it is mind boggling that the US was already at a point where universities were affordable and instead of getting even better and moving on to free education, it went to unaffordable education.
There are aspects of life that cannot and should not be capitalized: education, health care, food, infrastructure like roads, dams, utilities, water…
I relate so much to this. My graduate program is almost $100k and I’m still working full-time
Governments should pay for everyone’s college education. Or else online colleges will take over and college as we know it today will collapse.
She speaks truth. I went to university for 7 years, was an honor student throughout grad school and yet I am still homeless and jobless here in the USA. I was constantly misled by administration, lied to about opportunities and harassed for questioning university policies. It was all BS so the university could make money. Yet, the government says I should pay the loans back anyway. Well, they can suck it! I will NEVER give those student loan companies another dime! I default with enthusiasm! Screw them like they screwed me!
such an important topic, thank you Amanpour and Co
Thanks for tuning in. We appreciate you!
Every family that does not get financial aid is really covering the cost of 2 people. Its wrong on so many levels.
Thank you! 🌷💚 Really I wish more people saw this.
Great interview! I always find her perspective on life fascinating considering how hidden from reality she was growing up.
Thanks for tuning in!
Thank you for interviewing Tara. She is so inspirational!
Thank you for this important interview! This is the kind of valuable content I really enjoy from Amanpour & Co
Ms. Westover is not only intelligent, but has a real concern for people who desire an education. However, I am mystified why it took until the middle of her sophomore year to get a Pell Grant?. BYU is a good school. You'd think counselors would steer her there upon matriculation. Finally a professor or administrator did so. She was well read, to a point. And had access to the internet. That just shows you how smart, industrious people require help and a little luck to get along. The masses need an education. Yes, to make money, but also learn about themselves and life in general. Ms. Westover has a depth of character that most of us do not possess.
It took her that long because she was very reluctant to accept any government assistance. It went against everything she was taught growing up. Like not trusting doctors, or taking medication other than herbal remedies. Understandably, it took her a while to change her thinking about these kind of things.
Really good conversation. Thank you, Michel, and Amanpour & Co. Thanks to you my hold request list at the library keeps growing.
It's not about living up to the American dream, it is to survive the American nightmare. Most of population has a lower quality of life than the average of us Scandinavians (still we have more $ billionaires in Sweden per capita than the US)
Exactly
I'm questioning the value of the college degree because many students who attend college end up getting a ton of debt and end up doing jobs they could have done after high school.
I'm not anti college degree but we need a strong K12 program first and have a option to find the best post secondary education if it's tech schools, short courses or 4 year University. The thinking that a four year degree is the only option for success is dangerous and it's setting up people to fail.
What an amazing articulate perspective.
So if you had to articulate it, what is that perspective? ( and I read your other comment here )
The theme of this piece as I hear it is that the price of education is excluding a generation of kids.
At 7:25 and at 9:48 it is discussed that the sticker shock is turning away kids; their ladder, so to speak, ends at high school. At 9:50, it is discussed that university is becoming a privilege only to those who come from money or know the tricks of the system.
I also really liked her description of how she really only became a student when she received her pell grant and could focus on becoming a student instead of how she was going to survive financially. She says something about we become obsessed about things we don’t have; in her case that was money.
She is well spoken and has some
gems on insight throughout her interview.
What lesson did you get from the interview?
@@JohnM51982 Well since that's the title of the interview and the intended message of it so
I guess you got the message, although it is hardly a novel one and certainly didn't need this
book to convey it. ( and one might ask why obtaining various pieces of paper
means you are "educated", actually know anything, or can actually do anything. )
Everything here follows the current narrative including the racial aspects, but where it breaks
what is almost completely scripted is at 16:42...and is essentially a counter-point to
everything that preceded it.
University, higher education indeed all of education is NOT a "safe space" because life is not
a safe space...now I have no idea if this is conveyed in the book...to any greater extent than
is conveyed here...but the message is stark... the reality isn't pretty.
If this were the focus, rather than the cost factor and government's role in it...maybe a better
title would have been....Educated?
I went to school with several successful people who’s lives were changed in the same way by a Pel Grant.
I have also lived with many friends without higher education who devalue it in the same way, and whom are unable to get ahead in life due to a lack of that education, be it academic or even a trade school.
I'm wondering if the United States is actively trying to destroy its education system.
The business of the United States is not in favor of human values, needs and life.
Her story resonates with me. I clearly remember during my freshman and sophomore years worrying more about making money for my school/living expenses than I did about actually learning.
Great interview! Tara brings a very realistic view to the problems young people are facing now.
Thought provoking. Having read her great book, and watching this interview, makes me believe more ardently that we need to invest in education for all who aspire to a college degree. Knowledge is so critical today.
So are colleges just keeping to themselves the so-called "critical" knowledge everybody supposedly needs?? Does seem very unfair.
I remember when my sisters have money left from Pell grant that help with transportation, books, and food when going to their university. When it was my turn to go to college. There was no Pell Grant left and after few years, I have to take a loan every semester. I have to quit due to lack of mney for transortation, books and even food, and now I'm paying my students loans and is unbereable to live on my own at $14 hr. I'm even considering selling my car so I can save that money and breathe a little.
I am so terribly sorry……..
Have you applied for deferments? You will have to show your tax returns but still…..
@@kimthomas781 yes, last year when I went on furlough in April. It went down but I still have to pay monthly again in May unless is canceled (doubt it)
One of the things I heard recently is that employers are using the requirement of a college degree to keep Blacks and Hispanics without one from getting a job that might not really need one, or if it's a job they are doing already from transferring to another company for the same job.
That’s called discrimination because these “companies” can easily train and hire
@@TheRJRabbit23 Proving discrimination is hard. "Sorry, my system screens out applications without a college degree."
Beautiful lady who navigated a tough situation and frankly is raising some great points!
Wonderful interview!
Yes, the banning of books - the burning/disregarding of them like in Fahrenheit 451 is terrifying
I think a public funded college education would be a good thing. I think it would help society.
Do you mean ROTC, where the government covers the cost of education of a publicly funded college education ?
America gave up on being a "society" around about 1980, when Saint Ronnie came along and turned off all the taps to public investment in anything or anybody.
Aside from the interview, her book became my favorite EVER. Not only it opened my eyes into a lot of things, but also made me feel very inspired. I highly recommend everyone to read it!
This young woman needs to get into politics. She can make a difference.
Can anybody in USA make a difference i politics ? She will have to support her financial sponsors.....they may not want a difference.
My guess is, that's why she wrote a memoir. Watch this space.
I'm personally quite skeptical of the bestselling-memoir-to-political-office pipeline.
Absolutely. 100% agree
No. Such people are generally excluded from politics and lambasted if they get in. See the experiences of AOC for example.
Why destroy her life in politics?
Working in manufacturing 20yr I can say companies are stupid in that they put low priority on training and quality of product. They consider the college degree a standard for position and heirachy with competence overlooked.
Tara Westover's story and her involvement, directly and indirectly to our society is much needed. I love her book and her story. Thank you, Tara, for what you represent and for your insight. Reading her book, Educated, several years ago was an eye opener. What a gift she is.
Our govt needs to open medical school and nursing up for 5 years of free tuition to beef up or Family medicine and nursing staff for each state....each state to choose a handful of students to enter the program....no rich folks allowed btw
My oldest daughter’s in her 2nd year law school. We’re in Canada and she did get government loans but also had to take a professional loan because 1year is 10K. She’s also worked part time all through school. Another huge issue is affordable housing. When she’s done school, then paying back will start and no way to save for a house till years later.
She needs to marry well, lol
So very true. The cost was a major factor in my not attending medical school
The disinterest of college in young people isn't just inaccessibility, it is the disgusting state of our high school and grade school systems - they are more like a police state than a school. My kids' expériences were so different from my own I was appalled.
Loved, loved, loved her book!!! One of the best books that I have ever read! It was so engaging & unexpected.
I can relate to working around the clock to pay for school, then leaving just as the economy crashed. It took years of continuing to work numerous jobs before I could even begin to think about buying a home, much less starting a family. These days, I am all for reading as extensively as one can while growing up, finding the most scholarships one can if you desire a college education, and even if you pursue that, getting a trade as well as we can see now that being educated outside of certain specialties does not necessarily translate into getting a job that pays enough to secure the "American Dream".
Courage and honesty is refreshing. 🇺🇸
I imagine a discussion between an US-citizen and a European, who has migrated to the USA recently:
American: So you left free education behind?
European: Hmm, yes ...
American: And more or less free healthcare as well?
European: Well, yes ...
American: Also a working democratic election process?
European: Why, sure ...
American: And you knew that in the US you don't have rights to get paid leave or paid sick days like in Europe?
European: Yes ...
American: Also a year of paid maternity leave?
European: Also this ...
American: Why in heaven did you leave all that?!
European: To take advantage of the American dream, of course!
American: "face palm" - What do you think we Americans dream of?!
Well said
Exactly. Strictly propaganda
Reminds me of a German couple I met on a train from Boston to Providence. They were first time tourists in the USA but their English was perfect. As we went past decaying, abandoned factory buildings they asked me what we do for work here. I explained that medicine and higher education were the preferred career choices in New England now because of the incomes they offered. "In Germany we don't have to pay for those things" was the reply. Then the man told me that he found the train, itself, to be like a trip back 100 years in time. Overhead electrical sources and rickety, slow tracks were replaced with modern, high speed transit many decades ago in Germany. "In America" he said "it looks like the luxuries are cheap but life's necessities are extremely expensive." I told him he nailed it. Our world is backwards and upside down in the USA.
@@jabbermocky4520 Germany is half the size of Texas, with almost 3X the population, so high density housing and high speed rail makes sense. The United States simply is too large for high speed rail to make sense everywhere.
@@y1e2t34i I think China just proofed the contrary.
When I attended college at our community university in the early 1980s, I took a full load of classes, and the cost per semester, including books was $650.
My grandson is struggling going to the same college and now a full semester of classes now cost $4000, all for for a career that pays less than $40,000 annually.
If he advances to a four year college, he will accumulate nearly a $100,000 in student debt four a bachelor degree in engineering, so tell me, where is the incentive to go to college, go six figures in debt, just to make, not much more than a person without a degree earning nearly that much working on an assembly line?
I know young adults right now that are have four year degrees,that are working in their fields of study, and are still living with their parents because they are so burdened with student debt that can't afford to live on their own. There is something wrong this picture.
In 1984, my tuition and fees per quarter at my community college totaled $312. Given inflation, this is equal to $824 in 2022. Today at the same school a semester of tuition and fees is $3200.
Tara's arguments will actually convince readers to continue taking their college classes. It's tough, and a significant financial commitment right now, but she offers a deeper understanding of why it'll be worth it long term, and what to do to make the access more equally distributed. Thank you.
Finished reading your book. Thanks for being brave to write it.
Interesting talk.
Excellent interview. I wish to have this book
The ability to change is a good marker of intelligence. This woman is intelligent.
She was helped because she is pretty. A physically ugly person, male or female, has a tougher time.
I can't believe you said this but frankly--you are right!
Mind blowing that she didn’t here about the Civil Right Movement and lived in the 21st Century. That’s insane.
Wait till you hear about her not knowing about the Holocaust… her book is beyond words
She wouldn’t have heard about it through public education, since she wasn’t able to attend, and she definitely wouldn’t have heard about it through her family’s religious based version of education. Mormons as a culture pretty much ignore the civil rights movement where it concerns persons of color, and actively contend with civil rights where it concerns women and lgbtq people.
What is wrong with us in the U.S.? How did money become our leading measure of everything and everyone? Colleges and universities were not primarily businesses decades ago. Nor were hospitals and health insurance companies--most of them were non-profit until the 1960s. Perhaps we have too many MBAs, but that's probably only a symptom of what's wrong, not the cause.
I think you have a real point about the NBA's but also think about the new treatments and Equipment they have in hospitals these days things like heart surgery brain surgery didn't really exist except in the most simplistic and tentative ways back in the 1960s
So so true!!! The cost is just so out of reach!!!
Damn! This explains 1/3 of our society being cultists.
I loved her book. An amazing story and, clearly, an unusually bright and articulate young woman. Now that I've "found" her I know I'll be following her career. She speaks to so many important issues and the growing divides in our society.
Good example of a perfect introduction and hand off...
Amazing interview & book Tara, I read educated several times some time ago.
I think there are three basic factors involved about about higher education, or even getting basic K-12 education currently. First it's kinda like we're back at a pre WWII place before we had well funded public universities and mostly private colleges. After WWII and the G.I. bill many veterans could afford college and university and states and the Fed paid for a lot of the cost and tuition of public universities with taxes. I paid a about four hundred dollars a semester in the early 70's for tuition. And got my BA with no leftover debt.
Then the Vietnam war ended because of public displeasure with the war. Because the public had become to educated. Since the seventies there has been a concerted effort to dumb down the working public down. And yes the university's have become corporate, my father a tenured professor of psychology when retiring said that the higher education had become corpratized by early 2000. It was no longer an Ivory tower like when he was at Harvard completing his PhD.
Secondly, a lot of the reasons for our changing education is about population control, it's amazing that the military was able to wage war in Afghanistan for twenty years with the same or worse end result as Vietnam. Over fifty percent of middle to upper class employees now work for our military.
And finally I think education is changing.
I recently finished my Online Educator graduate certificate and I think that brick and mortar colleges and universities are on there way out. Teaching online offers the opportunity for instructors to teach differently and perhaps within the internet environment in a much better way , a path of discovery as opposed to the old leaky vessel.
What I came away with from "Educated" Tara was that you learned to love learning, and in that learning and some luck brought you to where you are now. Your brothers helping to teach you to read was wonderful in the book In a way life tends to be a crap shoot.
I too had a un usual up bringing as well, very academic - I'm a still a recovering perfectionist. Knowledge has way of making one different from the norm. As I have been aware of working so close to academia.
It was so nice to hear this interview between the two of you. My favorite part was about diversity, nature loves diversity, and in nature, that includes all of us.
Onward.
I appreciate your perspective. I was raised by parents who never graduated college knowing I would always go to college, yet they strongly distrust higher education. My dad is high-income but didn’t graduate college.
I went for a year to Liberty University, and year one included what we all jokingly called the “brainwash course” required for all, General Education, which taught gems like “Jesus didn’t drink real wine” and “7 days of creation or bust.”
My philosophy class offered the one place wherein different perspectives were discussed, but every lesson explained why anything but evangelical Christianity was wrong.
Having attended public school K-12, I felt suffocated and couldn’t believe the enormity of the close mindedness. Even now, it seems so weird that degrees from there are considered equal to the one I later earned at a state university after I transferred the hell outta there!
Ironically(?), even though a scholarship available to all honor roll students in my state covered my tuition at the state university, this private school (Liberty) was cheaper overall because they were so desperate for highly-ranked students.
PS As a career educator who also teaches online, I agree that the state of education is changing. Despite the rising cost of college ed, it’s an exciting time to be alive.
I was a strong student but would have been even stronger had gems like Khan Academy been around when I was in high school.
That doesn’t solve the problem for low SES students, of course, since it requires strong internet access... but it is an intriguing time in history.
@@abbyabroad thanks for your perspective Abby. There's nothing wrong with teaching with the Christian message as long as you allow for other perspectives. A big problem with most religions is it's like an exclusive righteous group. That's the difference between Liberty and freedom. What a crazy idea freedom of religion is, right? have they ever gotten along? I do agree that education can change with new technologies however, but how it is used has yet to be seen. In some ways it's easier to manipulate a dumb population than a smart one, but these latest events like the Capital insurection bring that into question. Your post here in relationship to makes a good argument on how religion in relationship to education is used as a control system of the masses Abby. I think we need to remember that the great library at Alexander fell not from a Roman set fire, but because the poor undereducated masses feared science and the new technologies. Sound familiar?
@@abbyabroad it has always been the best of times, and worst of times, Abby.
Listening to this reminds me that one of the big things that poorer kids and their families are deprived of in high school is high quality and knowledgeable college entry guidance. For example, an extremely bright HS junior from a family where no one has attended college might look at the tuition at a well endowed Ivy League college and say: “Wow…70K per year! Forget it…they’re all rich kids anyway”. They then look at their state university and say: “Wow…25K? That’s better but still unaffordable!”
What they don’t realize is that if their kid is really bright and has an unusual background and comes from an unusual region of the USA and good teacher recommendations and college board scores, the “elite” Ivy League school WILL accept them AND make sure it is affordable through strategic application of grants and work-study. They won’t accept you if they can’t figure out how to make it somehow affordable. Stereotypes aside, many “elite” schools WANT kids like this can afford to do this; however, it takes a knowledgeable HS guidance office to inform the student and their family and facilitate the student in taking the steps to make it happen. This is something that private schools do very well but many or most public schools do not have the resources for.
Impressive is not a word that I commonly apply to young people these days...but I apply it now with some sense of renewed hope in the young.
Well said! Love the open question on what this means and the potential impact for the people that cannot easily access higher education. It is true that people would devalue things that they don't have access to. I wonder if this also has also been an unseen driver behind the rise of anti-intellectualism.
Education has always been used to keep people separate. The haves from the have nots, To keep the costs high means only the haves can go…. And those without will remain without.
Tara is a breath of fresh air.