Great video! And I love the visual demonstrations! If I may ask, there is something about the "triangle" of neutral that I always get tripped up on. To me, it seems as if you can both "poke" and "whiff punish" at the same time. You can back up to be in distance to whiff punish, but you can also poke if an opponent gets too close. What would be the counter to someone that is using both options at the same time?
It might seem like your opponent is whiff punishing + poking at the same time, but most of the time they’re just switching “modes” very fast because you’re walking forward. If you take a step just outside of their range and act like you’ll walk forward, but just hold block instead, you’ll be surprised how often people press a button. To bait whiff punishes you could also whiff a light button, and a lot of the time your opponent will whiff their whiff punish, thinking you did a heavier button. This is also why at high level you see people walking forward and walking back a lot, both are trying to get in range to poke or whiff punish, without walking themselves to the corner, and staying out of their opponents ranges. If that doesn’t quite answer your question I think you should consider the idea of “mental stack”. Humans can really only react to 2 (maybe 3 if they’re really really good) things in game at once. If your opponent is focused on making sure you don’t walk forward and whiff punishing at the same time, it would be very hard for them to react to a jump, a drive rush, or even a raw DI.
Thank you for your response! Your response, and the visual example in this video of the Jamie whiff punishing Guile's low MK, kind of gave me a good idea of how to approach this situation. Would a good way to think of it be that I would have to try to just stay patient, and hope that my opponent eventually gives me something to punish, whether that be a whiff punish, a blocked move, or an anti-air?
@@co81385 there’s that, and if you notice they’re waiting to whiff punish a lot, you can start playing a bit more preemptive. Keep in mind there’s not just 1 neutral triangle. A lot of the time they can be broken down like this: waiting for your opponent to do something you can react and punish (checking drive rush), doing something that beats reactions (doing drive rush qcb hp with Luke), and doing something that beats preemptive play (neutral jumping the qcb hp).
@@Rubykiku It depends on what move you’re trying to whiff punish! For example, whiff punishing a medium punch or kick with a move that slow will be very difficult, but whiff punishing a move with a lot of recovery is definitely doable with a 14 frame move. I’m able to consistently whiff punish zangief’s heavy buttons with chun li’s heavy punch, which is 13 frames. Whiff punishing a crouching medium kick would be incredibly difficult for me to do consistently with heavy punch, but I don’t have a huge problem doing it with my own crouching medium kick (7 frames) or forward medium punch (7 frames).
@@Shorins22 I had the same kinda thought process about it, and I was referring to whiff punishing medium pokes. The 7 frame whiff punish tool is definitely gonna have an easier time catching those lingering hurtboxes before they can retract ~ especially for pokes with faster recovery.
Great video! And I love the visual demonstrations!
If I may ask, there is something about the "triangle" of neutral that I always get tripped up on. To me, it seems as if you can both "poke" and "whiff punish" at the same time. You can back up to be in distance to whiff punish, but you can also poke if an opponent gets too close. What would be the counter to someone that is using both options at the same time?
It might seem like your opponent is whiff punishing + poking at the same time, but most of the time they’re just switching “modes” very fast because you’re walking forward. If you take a step just outside of their range and act like you’ll walk forward, but just hold block instead, you’ll be surprised how often people press a button. To bait whiff punishes you could also whiff a light button, and a lot of the time your opponent will whiff their whiff punish, thinking you did a heavier button.
This is also why at high level you see people walking forward and walking back a lot, both are trying to get in range to poke or whiff punish, without walking themselves to the corner, and staying out of their opponents ranges.
If that doesn’t quite answer your question I think you should consider the idea of “mental stack”. Humans can really only react to 2 (maybe 3 if they’re really really good) things in game at once. If your opponent is focused on making sure you don’t walk forward and whiff punishing at the same time, it would be very hard for them to react to a jump, a drive rush, or even a raw DI.
Thank you for your response! Your response, and the visual example in this video of the Jamie whiff punishing Guile's low MK, kind of gave me a good idea of how to approach this situation. Would a good way to think of it be that I would have to try to just stay patient, and hope that my opponent eventually gives me something to punish, whether that be a whiff punish, a blocked move, or an anti-air?
It’s an incredibly complicated topic at the end of the day. I’d like to make more videos about it though, thanks for liking this one!
@@co81385 there’s that, and if you notice they’re waiting to whiff punish a lot, you can start playing a bit more preemptive. Keep in mind there’s not just 1 neutral triangle. A lot of the time they can be broken down like this: waiting for your opponent to do something you can react and punish (checking drive rush), doing something that beats reactions (doing drive rush qcb hp with Luke), and doing something that beats preemptive play (neutral jumping the qcb hp).
Thank you so much for your responses! If I may ask, how would Drive Rush heavy Flash Knuckle beat a reaction?
Neutral is a myth and being minus isn’t real. Where on my screen does it say that I’m minus? No thanks, I’ll keep mashing.
@@StormiHere LOL
Y'all ever look at Ryu's pectorals and drop the combo? I hope Shorins can teach us to avoid that scenario in future videos.
great job
rly digging how to the point and concise these vids are. dont feel bogged down with unnecessary things
Great work, up and coming fighting game sensei
Big Shorins cranking out quality content at record pace.
Nice explanation for neutrals 🎉🎉
Thankd for the great content!
Do you think a move with 14 frame start up is too slow to be a reliable whiff punish tool?
@@Rubykiku It depends on what move you’re trying to whiff punish! For example, whiff punishing a medium punch or kick with a move that slow will be very difficult, but whiff punishing a move with a lot of recovery is definitely doable with a 14 frame move.
I’m able to consistently whiff punish zangief’s heavy buttons with chun li’s heavy punch, which is 13 frames. Whiff punishing a crouching medium kick would be incredibly difficult for me to do consistently with heavy punch, but I don’t have a huge problem doing it with my own crouching medium kick (7 frames) or forward medium punch (7 frames).
@@Shorins22 I had the same kinda thought process about it, and I was referring to whiff punishing medium pokes. The 7 frame whiff punish tool is definitely gonna have an easier time catching those lingering hurtboxes before they can retract ~ especially for pokes with faster recovery.
Just a mental stack that’s more or less what is being described
@@stevenoconnor5693 No. Whiff punishing - that is what they’re talking about, buddy bear.