Top Rope Solo Climbing Devices MYTH
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- čas přidán 4. 07. 2024
- The myth: "teeth are bad and will damage your rope when top rope soloing"!!! People talk about teeth, smooth and ridges... ONLY dynamic drop tests, static pull tests and experience should prevail as to what devices are safer / more dangerous.
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0:00 Introduction
0:30 Teeth are bad for your rope (or are they?)
2:18 Ridges are safer (or are they?)
4:17 Smooth devices (no teeth no ridges): Are they the safest?
5:45 Conclusion
Find my Rope Solo online courses here:
blissclimbing.com/en/online-c...
Find the Petzl Shunt here: www.mapleleafropes.com/store/...
Find the Petzl Micro Traxion here: www.mapleleafropes.com/store/...
Find the Climbing Technology CT Roll n lock here: www.mapleleafropes.com/store/...
Find the Wild Country Ropeman 1 here: www.mapleleafropes.com/store/...
Find the Petzl Tibloc here: www.mapleleafropes.com/store/... - Sport
Great content Yann, your videos are very informative , thank you for taking time to make them, well done!
You are welcome!! :-) I am happy you like it!!!
Another awesome video thank you Yann! I use the rollnlock and microtrax combo and now I feel even more confident in my choice. I know there’s debate about which device to use on top and which device under and I always use the rollnlock on top to avoid shredding by the microtraxion. Maybe I will switch my configuration if the microtraxion does not shred rope so easily. Seems the trax potentially interfering with the rollnlocks arm could be a bigger danger than rope shredding.
Also have you seen the video about interaction between devices? czcams.com/video/Kh2kAWWuD98/video.html And the video about your exact topic: czcams.com/video/e4wpIQ0ikFA/video.html
Another good video, thanks. Can you review the DMM Buddy?
I use Camp Lift and Singing rock Locker, both of them seems very safe to me... No teeth, no ridges so damage to the rope is almost non exsistent...
Camp lift(smaller) goes on the belay loop, Locker(bigger) is on a sling, usualy 20-30 cm...
Don't know if this is the best option, but still haven't had any problems with this setup...
Can you please review the Edelrid Spoc?
I’m using rescucender and microtraxion, each on its own rope. I’m mainly climbing 5.6-5.8 and feel secure (aspiring intermediate climber). Following petzyl’s recommendation. Thx for the video. It’s good to hear straight talk.
Thanks!! Petzl’s recommendation is the foundation of modern TRS if you ask me!! :-)
Thanks, Jann. Your videos are informative and seem trustworthy. I use the Camp Goblin above and micro trax below, each on different strands. What do you think of the Goblin?
The goblin is one of the strongest devices out there. Unnerving in the “updown” mode you have to really fall so it catches. Very safe devices you choose here. Just do a good “solo buddy check” (search my videos) and you should be in business. Also protect your rope from sharp edges. Just a note: make sure your connector on the goblin does not interfere with the locking mechanism. Compatibility is always key… enjoy!!
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Thanks a lot for the tips, Jann. Yeah, I feel pretty safe with it. If anything my only complaint is that it’s really heavy, but part of the extra weight is the mega bomber carabiner I use that can withstand major forces even when cross loaded.
Nice and informative video, thanks!
Thank you!
personally I love my shunt, I just back it up with a jumar and it flows so nicely with me I forget it's even there. I even dyno with it on no problem. I feel as long as you don't use it without a back up, or if you do then as long as you dont squeeze the trigger before falling (which the manual tells you not to do) you should be as safe as you are on most other devices. It can be a pain in the butt when you're going over roofs though, but I feel like that's also an issue with other devices as well.
You found something that works for you! The Shunt is tensioned with a chest attachment to keep it away from the jumar? Or you use 2 ropes? Thanks for the comment!! If you ever try the uAscend let us know: it creates so little drag compared to the Shunt! The Shunt feels like 700 g and the uAscend feels like 300 g.
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing I have to use one rope cause my local cliff is too high to haul 2 ropes up there. And basically i just put a tie over my neck, a carabiner on that, and run some twine from the locking hole on the shunt up into the biner to hold it up as i climb. And I'll have to check out the uascend, but honestly the shunt moves so smooth i forget its there.
I have a shunt left over from my old rope access days, i feel like everyone forgot about Shunts. In Australia we used them on a second rope as a back up , with a Croll and ID.
Well done, thanks
Hey mate, what are your thoughts on the petzl bsic ascender? Is it safe?
In a single sentence, the new petzl basic ascender is NOT safe for TRS (top rope solo). See Petzl recommendation NOT to use the new petzl basic ascender here: www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Appendix-1--Petzl-does-not-recommend-using-only-one-ascender-for-self-belaying-?ActivityName=rock-climbing I agree with Petzl on that one!!!
So what’s your ideal setup? I have just been rocking a grigri and tying knots whenever I have a decent rest on the route. But I know I need a backup, or maybe a whole new system.
Camp Lift above, petzle microtrax below
Buy my course and you will learn much more than the setup! Actually you have plenty of options for the setup... All in the course here: blissclimbing.com/en/online-courses/
If the shunt is safe except for user error then why not using 2 of them? One backing up the other, the climber/user would never grab both of them?
Few reasons. Too much friction. The top one could cancel the other one. Clunky. Heavy. There are many better options. So I would ask the oposite: why would you use 2 shunts? Makes sense?
hello, the blue device its similar to the "lift" by Camp/ do you recommend it? thanks 👍
My 2 cents here: czcams.com/video/PsCF8kw5UQI/video.html
Thank you! Nice video 👍🏼
Thanks so much!
What do you think of the Ropeman 2? I use it as a backup to the Microtraxion
It needs more testing in my opinion. But the drag is not so cool: you need more weight on your rope to make it feed.
One general question, and I haven't found any answer yet.
The situation which we have in my area nearly everywhere, you can not access the top anchor by walking, and it's as well too high for the clipstick. I don't want to risk solo lead.
What is the safe procedure to solo?
You need to lead rope solo on aid stick clipping yourself bolt to bolt. If one bolt fails or you fall from your aiders, the last bolt clipped in your lead rope solo system will save you. No other (safe) way… makes sense? Maybe one day a drone can safely attach your rope…
Yann Camus me encantan tus vídeos.Aprendo mucho sobre seguridad y te estoy agradecido 😊 Yo estoy usando el Kong Duck
Cool, I own all three good ones. Phew!!
I wonder if Yann has any thoughts on devices like Petzls micrograb/rescuecender/microcender!?
All 3 devices have great track records. For TRS, the new Rescucender is NOT good because the spring is at least a tad too weak. Also the weight of it makes it slip more than I would want. The old Rescucender can be set in a safe way. But it is not my favorite for TRS. If I remember well, the micrograb cannot be inserted mid rope. Not good for TRS. The Microcender was a real winner for TRS too bad Petzl does not make them anymore!! Makes sense? All are strong devices and nice to the ropes. The small cable has to be replaced if worn because it serves as a spring for some of the devices. I don’t know well the micrograb because I never owned one. makes sense?
Hi Yann, are there any drawbacks you can think of with the Petzl Microcender?
If the body is pressed down during a fall, it will slide down. All devices have their ways to fail. Is this the kind of information you were looking for?
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing I like Microcender because it's solidly built with smooth teeth, but I don't hear many people talk about it. I understand you can make it fail if you were to grab it, right before falling. Thanks, I just wanted to hear your thoughts.
I am a heavier new climber. I weigh 260 at the moment(down from 300 when I started climbing this summer). I am worried about generating loads that would strip the sheath on a the microtrax. What devices would you use for trs if you were significantly heavier?
The setup by Petzl with 2 devices on 2 ropes might be for you. Not sure there is any risk of de sheathing a rope (I have never heard of one during TRS). Primary (upper device) could be a Shunt (maybe?), a Camp Goblin, a Kong Backup with the proper carabiner, an ISC Rocker, the old Rescucender, the old Microcender, the LOV3 those are the names that come to my mind. The bottom “backup” device could be a Petzl Micro Traxion or Petzl Ascension, or the old Basic (not the new design). What do you think? Also I highly recommend you buy my course ;-) and use static ropes. In any case: make sure you put your weight on the system before you leave the ground and pre stretch the ropes so if you fall early: you don’t get your butt on the rocks below!! Makes sense?
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing excellent. Great minds think alike! That's exactly the system I had imagined for myself. 2 strands of rope, lov3 on top and microtrax on bottom. Thanks for the tip on writing the rope! I will be buying to course very soon. Thanks!
I use micro traxion and rollnlock for summerclimbing... For winter and icy ropes I switch out one of them with the teethed ropeman 2 👍
Interesting!!!
I have used my Shunt for top rope soloing infrequently over 20 years. I also have a Grigri and wondered whether the two could be used together for greater security?
Attach your rope from its Center, you will get 2 strands. Put the grigri on one strand and the Shunt on the other strand. Make sure you don’t have bad interactions. You could pull the shunt up using a chest attachment. Check my online course to get better tips. (Both safer and more efficient, etc)
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing thanks very much, I was planning to give that a go next time out.
thank you bro
Great video Yann!
It constantly kills me hearing people claim toothed devices are bad….because most aren’t! In fact they are the very most secure and safe!
I agree: you almost need the teeth to make a bomber setup…
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing EXACTLY
Whether true or not, the concern is falling as you climb at the very top near anchors and the teeth might start to cut the rope. A smooth device like shunt will slip a little and absorb energy, so goes the theory. Shunt has advantage you can grab it and pull slack easily if you want to go down a little to repeat a move or two.
@@tomtom4405 =( Shunt is not the tool of choice IMO.
What do you think about Petzl Kroll for TRS ?
You should not use the Croll for TRS. Details in the online course. I know it's hard to find a comprehensive and reliable source of information on this topic. That's why I did my research, bought equipment, experimented and adopted a way to teach rope soloing. I do not answer questions in private. My reasons are the following:
-It is dangerous to have partial information about security systems
-I need an income to continue my mission to teach and innovate
I would love to help you find answers to your questions! I suggest the following solutions:
-An in-person course (blissclimbing-com.translate.goog/fr/formations/?_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en)
-An online course (blissclimbing.com/en/online-courses/)
-A subscription to my Patreon (I answer on the platform) (www.patreon.com/blissclimbing)
I prefer to refer to complete courses. The courses should answer 99% of your questions and show you more things you haven't even thought of AND that are essential to being effective and safe! For any remaining questions, I answer every question asked by my clients and try to post everything on the hidden private Facebook groups reserved for buyers of online courses so that all buyers can benefit. I also very often add content to the courses because there is so much to say and teach on the subject AND I still learn quite often! You can always ask your questions on the “regular” public Facebook rope solo groups, but you won't get all correct answers and probably nothing complete. That's why my suggestion is to take the courses!! Looking forward to seeing you buy a course: you will be happy with your choice!!!
i use a cinch. looking for something safer.
thanks for the info. i top rope solo with a grigri so I can belay down on one device. Just curious, why didn't you include it? Also, I have been using the rope man 2 as my secondary device, I suppose I'll switch over to a microtraxion
There are at least 30 devices that could be included. The grigri is not the same kind of device: it has a spring that "helps" the device to fail!!! The 6 devices I chose for this video are "rope grabs" that hold "tight" to the rope. You cannot get them down when pulling on them. By the way the grigri is VERY nice to the rope and should not cut/desheath the rope unless something goes VERY wrong (like rope going under the handle). Makes sense?
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing thank you. Tru, It’s a totally different type of device. Still going to replace my rope man! Lol
@@sciencesaves Should! ;-)
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing I learn so much from your channel! Keep up the great work!
@@stuff2climb102 Thanks for the comment!
At the start of the video there is a Petzl Rescucender, but later on it disappears and you don't mention it. I've used it as one of my devices, what are you thouhts?
On the table is a microcender. The microcender is a GREAT device! As for the rescucender, the old one was a reasonable contender for TRS climbing. The new rescucender should not be used in my opinion. The full details are in my online rope solo courses with MUCH more information also: blissclimbing.com/en/online-courses/ The reason I changed mid way into the video was I wanted a toothless device that I am strongly against to balance with one I would recommend...
the new version of the petzl tibloc has a spring
YES! I just bought it and am super impressed... It is a device I look forward to use more. The new tibloc sounds much more reliable than the old tibloc.
Yann , please , what do you think of Reverso to do Solo Climbing and also to do Top Rope Solo Climbing
It is dangerous. @hownot2 tested this kind of device and it fails at the quite low load of 5.5kN. But this could be much lower depending on the exact device and exact rope. (the rope crosses over and then it slips) See this video at 11:31 : czcams.com/video/7ahtsj5k4fo/video.html
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing
Thank you very much Yann .
I watched the video that you indicated and it was very clear to me how the error occurs.
Also the resistance it supports.
Your comment and the video has been very instructive for me.
Very kind of you
I have a device that looks identical to the view ascent, Grand wall.
It's called Ushba. made in russia, titanium, nice but old thing I had for about 20 years. Scary thing is that if you grab the rope above the device in a fall, it can prevent it from locking. Let go and it'll lock, but not after you got some nice rope burn. Scary as F.
This is, like you said, user error. But it is so easy to do.
Any rate. Be aware. I never use mine without a backup!
Yes! I would love to try a Ushba. They look so similar to the uAscend!!
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing I did some googling. The "Ushba basic ascender" and the uascend are more or less identical. The latter is probably just a knock off copy. Id like to see you test it adding some friction above the device. Nothing that locks, just a little friction. You'll probably see that the uascend doesn't lock up then.
What about the Kong Duck (prime) and a Microtraxion (backup)?
Thanks for reaching out to me for your rope solo questions! I know that finding a complete and reliable source for questions on this topic is hard to find. That is why I researched, bought gear, experimented, and adopted a way to teach rope soloing. I am sorry to say I do not answer questions in private but prefer to refer to my online courses. I believe it is the way to go because having partial information on safety systems is not advisable. I suggest you look into the courses because it should answer 99% of your questions and show you more stuff that you did not even think about AND that is critical to being efficient and safe-r! For anything extra, I answer all questions my clients have and try to post it all to the private hidden Facebook groups reserved for the online course buyers so all buyers can benefit. I also add content to the courses very often because there is so much to say and teach on the subject AND I still learn quite often! You can always ask your questions on the “normal” Facebook rope solo groups but you will not have only good ideas/answers and nothing complete. That’s why my suggestion is the courses!! You can find the courses at blissclimbing.com/en/online-courses/ . Hope to see you buying a course: you will be glad of your choice!!!
You should survive with this choice of rope grabs but it is not the best combination for easy trailing on the rope. YMMV
What about jumar? Also, the last device I used to juggle, along with jumar, and it slipped sometimes.
By Jumar you mean the old "Jumar" ascenders or the new Petzl model "ascension"? I know nothing about the old Jumar. But the Petzl Ascension is a great device with similar pull / de-sheath / use reasonable diameter rope properties as the Petzl micro traxion. The Ascension CAN slip in certain situations. Make sure you use it as the old manual used to recommend (follow link to see how to connect to the ascension for TRS use: www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Appendix-4--Precautions-and-introduction-to-risk-analysis?ActivityName=rock-climbing )
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing yes, I meant Petzl ascender. We call them "jumars" in Russia, where I had a home made titanium one. Thanks for answering and for great videos! Very informative.
@@snekhai You are welcome!! Thanks for the comments 😃
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing I am using the setup described here czcams.com/video/-AZlCUfCmXU/video.html for top rope solo. It works well. Years back, when I climbed in Russia, I always used prusik on top of my assender, even when I used two assendrrs on overhanging routes. I have never seen it being done in US.
@@snekhai We call them jumars in the U.S.A as well. I like using mine as a back up on my shunt (for single rope top rope solo of course, would do you no good on double ropes, unless you have 2 jumars I guess)
Good job having time and also "balls" to review devices for this purpose. I just couldn't resist to write, that argument about Shunt of yours was quite "cheap", comparing to the popularity and effectivity of that device at first, and to your arguments about other devices on the other hand; i.e. shunt is as safe as the abilities of its user, as well as other devices mentioned.
I agree. I think all devices need a backup really. And the shunt with the right rope(s) and a backup can be "safe enough". But I think it gives too much friction so a different device will give you a better experience. You make me want to get some more mileage on my shunt. I will try it see if I can like it. But since I have many better devices for the task (LOV, uAscend, RNL, ect. always with a Micro Traxion as a backup), I does not make me want to take it out for a ride. Note that this video is from 2 years ago and I think I may have matured a little on the subject. And "shunt is as safe as the abilities of its user" is like saying Alex Honnold is safe because he has the abilities. I disagree on this. A system should be safe in itself quite a bit. Think about the Scorpion Catch: a lot of people don't know about it and the Shunt could come out of the rope! So... Use a backup! Makes sense?
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing comparison to Alex Honnold - you've got climber with abilities (user of shunt vs. Alex free soloing), than there are some risks / danger (turning shunt upside down vs. broken hold/foothold). That's why I think this comparisson isn't lucky enough, 'cause Alex cannot affect breaking holds, but climber with shunt has everything in his hands (and abilities and skills and knowledge, etc.).
I use shunt without backup like Dave MacLeod does and also, as he mentioned in his video about this, with static rope 11 mm diameter weighted with bag full of stuff, but not too heavy, you don't want to have the rope rigid as pole...
The only minus for Shunt is, that it's quite pain in the ass to climb an overhand with it, but fortunately I don't have to do this very often :)
What is your oppinion about the Kong duck device? It is very similar to the rollnlock, and I think it is completly safe. Many people use in my country.
Other comment: I think you should never use two device which can be ungage without romve it from the rope. It has a chance to forget to closing it (specially if your are tired)
I recommend you stay away from the Kong Duck because the tests I have seen show it can damage ropes a lot more. More testing is needed but for now... Some important differences between very similar looking devices: czcams.com/video/At3m_DDP2fA/video.html . I agree that devices that can be un-engaged while still on the rope comes with a risk. Anyway: any system should come with a primary safety and a backup system. And efficient pre-flight checks should always be part of the climb to stay safe. This solo-buddy-check could be handy: czcams.com/video/LU4jwvw8WBg/video.html
Just to let you know the rolling Rock is completely dangerous, it will slip if you fall not perfectly straight, you can do this test extremely easy clip of carabiner through your rolling block on a rope slide rolling rock up when you go to pull down twist your wrist right or left and yank down and you'll see that it slips.
I have see this failure where the black rounded metal edges push on the rope and therefore the cam / ridges do not make contact with the rope so it slides down. Scary stuff! I believe it is rope-diameter dependent. I have to dig deeper into this subject... The name is RollNLock. Thanks!
nice, go yann!
Thanks for the comment!
what about top rope soloing with kong duck?
Not my favorite but should be ok. Note this accident with the Duck but could have happened with a RNL the same I believe: publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201215676
Which one is your favorite out of the three safest???
The most versatile is the micro traxion so if I buy just one, it would be it. But the question is favorite for what?
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing Rope soloing.
@@kazhatfield1346 Micro Traxion is a great device. Some people modify it to make it more reliable. But then I always recommend a backup anyway so no mod needed if you have a backup. In the end I would choose the micro traxion and another of the two other safest...
You had the Petzl Microcender in your hand and then cut it out of the clip. Why no comment on it?
I cover everything in my online course (especially the best/recommended setups). I cut it out to keep this clip simple and to present devices that are still manufactured as of today. Makes sense? The Microcender is a great device when paired with the micro traxion for example. (For TRS)
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing thanks!
Can we use the Duck instead of the Shunt.. ?
You can do whatever you want! What do you mean?
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing I was wondering if the « S.TEC DUCK-R » had some kind of issues too.
@@patrickbeauchemin110 I don't own one but maybe someone can answer? Also if someone has one I can put my hands on! I would love to test it!
I have gotten myself a climb lift for. first device today with microtrax as backup after going microtrax first and ascension backupnfor months.
I am not sure however about the lift, as it seems that by death gripping (similar to the grigri) btw by pulling its back down, you can undo it... It seems very comfortable and adjustable and very clean to the rope.
However the ascension you really cant undo..
I tried some falls into an old dynamic rope with ascension and trax in a low height. Even with just 6m of dynamic rope to catch with a fallheight of 0, 5 to 1m, the trax didnt damage any of the rope, the only thing that hurt a bit after was my back....
I guess teethed devices are just the safest
well the tibloc is certified to be used for top rope style climbing by the German mountain rescue
Would that be for fixed lines in the alpine environment where falls are unlikely? Do you have the document with this information in writing? Note that it is forbidden by Petzl on the old ti-bloc... I would have to do research as for the new ti-bloc... www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Appendix-1--Petzl-does-not-recommend-using-only-one-ascender-for-self-belaying-?ActivityName=rock-climbing
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing so where this is used is on fixed ropes. you would clip the Tibloc (it is not said that an old one shouldnt be used) to the rope with the short arm of the Petzl Dual Connect Adjust. According to the training documents, even at a factor 2 fall (with 100kg) tge force stays under 6kN.
It is also said multiple times that the tibloc has the highest "Seilmantelbruchfestigkeit" (German word, means like the force needed to break the sheath) of all the rope clamps. If used in combonation with the offical ropes of the mountain rescue (normal climbing ropes), the sheath doesnt break even of you factor 2 fall onto it.
basically the tibloc is used for almost everything lol
@@sebastianloessl7982 Please if you can get in contact with me on my website (mail) or facebook or instagram: I would like to ask you for the document or pictures of the parts explaining all this... Thanks!
I think for that use to be reasonable, you need to use the new ti-bloc and proper connector (bar-stock / round bar). Because the old ti-bloc is notorious for engaging partly and damaging ropes... I need to buy the new ti-bloc to test this!!!
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing i just checked and in the training photos, the old tiblock is being used with a petzl triac lock carabiner. realistically tho it is gonna be used with a round steel carabiner tho.
I own the new tibloc and i never had problems with it not engaing in the rope.
i can send you pictures from the documents, they are in German tho
@@sebastianloessl7982 Ok I will do with German :-)
The tibloc is the most underrated to me
Do you talk about the new ti-bloc? With the spring plastic? I would agree that it is much better than the old one!!!
@@YannCamusBlissClimbing I’ve only used the new model with the spring
Roll and lock on top and microtraxion at the bottom seems to be trustworthy
But yo miss to tell the Shunt is the only one works with two ropes together
If you want a third hand for a rappel: the Shunt is IT. For about anything else, I recommend something else. Sure it works with 2 ropes: I still never use it. I rappel with a grigri, a LOV2, a LOV3 or a Revo... Pretty much nothing else these days.
Testing disagrees with you on a few of these. I know you are trying to be helpful, but you are just perpetuating your own myths.
Please give me some educational feedback. I don’t learn anything from your comment.
interesting but with some of that logic even common delay devices are bad for the rope
Interesting! What are they?