Battletech: These Tanks Should Be Banned From The Game
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- čas přidán 28. 08. 2024
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FRITZ
His list for reference:
1. Saladin (596 BV)
2. Partisan (673 BV)
3. Savannah Master (215 BV)
Surprised he didn't mention the Schreck. That is a turret on wheels. Good to defend the back line, good on a hill.
I'm shocked he didn't mention the Kokou Defense Tank, 3 C-LPL and a LRM10 at 2-3 or 3-5 for 1100 or 1450BV ea, its god tier
The Schreck suffers from a lot of weight lost to heatsinks. It saves a lot of tonnage if two of the three PPCs are replaced by AC10s.
The Savannah master(SL) has 2 small lasers and costs like half the BV with more damage. Even better! I like the Partisan(LRM) variant. Badass.
The Shrek PPC(XL) variant is killer in later eras. 4/6, 30+ armor on all locations. It's a monster for under 1k BV.
DI Morgan(Gauss) 3 gauss rifles with a targeting computer. Ridiculously good!
Both of the gauss copters(yellow jacket and hawk moth) are amazing. Cheap, fast, enough armor to take a hit, 1 big long range gun. They are what the Hollander wishes it was.
Oh hey, cool to see you around here.
How about the Karnov, that carries a Thumper Artillery piece? I mean, that thing is easy to bring down, but it can pelt baddies from across the map, no matter how large your map is, lol.
@@h.a.9880 It is a winner as well. Mobility means that even if its position is comprimised it can just fly away!
@@TheManyVoicesVA At 17 hexes per turn, no less.
@@h.a.9880That's nice. Consider the Ferret VTOL. 58 BV, sling an external TAG pod under it, and let the Arrow IVs do their thing.
@@oneproudbrowncoat Just looked up its topspeed. Holy shit. It'll just get all the TMMs.
LRM carrier. Take 2 park them behind cover then fight in the shade of tons of LRMs flying indirect fire. Bonus if you have dedicated spotters.
I don’t think units need to be banned. I just think the players on the opposing side just need to be a little bit more flexible in their tactics if your opponent wants to start breaking things out for the memes start including pulse lasers and artillery and maybe swarm LRM’s. Savannah Masters in particular will explode if you sneeze on them successfully. So you can take out several with a single artillery strike.
Improvise, adapt, overcome.
LBX work really good
I mean I literally made a list in the neighborhood of 10k BV2 list intended to field Wobbies consisting of 4 Malaks, 1 Deva, and 1 Grigori, everything else is just standard run of the mill Bulldog variants (6 standard, two LRM), and 2 Myrmidon MBT's
keep in mind this is excluding any fancy rules from Manei Domini or other WoB rules, meaning running gunnery/pilot 4/5 across the board
@@Jon-ef4hh I'm intending to run a Manei Domini list myself but even fielding my WoB as standard WoB it would still be an amazing list of Battle Armour, Conventional Infantry and a few Celestial mechs and Marksmen Artillery.
I don't care about the 'banned' aspect, but these are my must-have tanks in my combined arms forces:
1. Patton / Rommel
2. Striker combat vehicle
3. Manticore
4. Ontos heavy tank
5. Goblin infantry support tank
Regulator is decent too
LRM Carrier, Alacorn.
Mine are the Pegasus scout hover tank, Shreck, ontos, and oddly enough the light SRM carrier. I'd probably use the lrm carrieras the 5th. Pegasus getting behind mechs with those 2 SRM 6s is gross, the ontos is also gross once it gets in range with those medium lasers, Shreck as other people mentioned is just PSR on a mech the tank, the light SRM carrier is faster than it's big brother, it has a turret unlike it, however its wheeled
For me (and I do tend to play more 3025 tech games than later eras)
1 - LRM Carrier for very effective fire support, often behind cover
2 - Partisan for direct fire long range support
3 - SRM Carrier usually assigned to urban or as support for my long range units (light mechs need to die in one salvo)
For cheap but effective I do tend to favor the Hetzer (map dependent, it is insane on urban maps) and Scorpion (yeah the vendetta is better, but it's cheaper and often ignored but those ac/5 hits stack up)
I agree. I also like the Warrior Vtol to support said Tanks... It's a nasty combo
When we first started with tanks someone fielded a Demolisher tank, it was slow, limited ammo. People laughed at it, we could easily out maneuver it. The game began, NO ONE IS LAUGHING NOW. That thing is a mech killer, and building leveler.
Heh. You haven't yet met the absolute _horror_ that is LRM Carriers with FASCAM mine LRMs, paired with a medium-heavy lance of jump-capable mechs that can maneuver around the laid-down minefields.
Why get expensive mecs, when you can get helicopter's. Yellow jackets sound good😂
The Saladin is scary, especially the UAC/20 version. 40 damage is fearsome, if you can make that thing weasel its way up behind the enemy, it's gonna turn out ugly... for them.
Or the enemy has to send out one guy to deal with the Saladin, which means you might be lucky to remove 1k BV from a fight with less than half of what you brought... and then there's always the chance that the Saladin gets hunted down but manages to go out in a blaze of glory, dealing enough damage to destroy or cripple whatever was sent to deal with it.
Issue with Saladin is not "If you can make it backstab someone". It's "It will INEVITABLY backstab someone". It's an 8/12. It can sit back out of range/sight right until the moment to pounce and put an (U)AC/20 right in the feelings. From behind. It's especially dire if they travel in a pair. And I say it as someone who absolutely adores the damn bastard.
But that's the main benefit of the hovers. Instead of "if it can shoot me in the back" it's "when".
@@nemamiah7832 The thing that I like most about the Saladin is the idea that it works like a 2D fighter-plane.
It zips towards a target, fires its shots and then turns to a side and hauls ass, kinda like an A-10.
or, it gets hit by a random LBX10 and immobilized turn 2, like most vehicles, because battletechs vehicle rules are retarded.
in 1987, the 3025 tech readout reached my local hobby store. i was the one who got my hands on it first, and by the end of the first weekend i had been banned from battletech for a month, and the saladin was permanently :)
I bet they were happy with that when Maximum Tech rule book came out. That allowed vehicles to fight better then before.
Bulldogs. Bulldogs are auto include. Its my trooper tank. It's so cheap and unlike scorpions and vedettes it carries a decent mid to close range punch, has decent armor, decent speed and you can easily take a full lance of nothing but bulldogs and watch them just dogpile enemy mechs
I don't know enough about the game to say anything. On paper though, I do like the Hetzer for how goofy it is in a garbage sort of way. Even the in universe lore of it paints it as a pathetic cash-grab by Quicksell. It's literally just a motorized wagon with an AC20. Just by comparing BV costs, all the vehicles that Fritz mentioned are just leagues superior in cost and firepower. Especially the Partisan, which has the dubious honor of making MW5 players scream in frustration as the quad cannon tank starts stripping away their armor.
The Hetzer might be useful as a cheap way to close up an alley or chokepoint on a map with many obstacles. You seriously do not want to end up in front of it. It's also decent as a means to protect other more vulnerable units from light mechs.
There's also a few variants, that are pretty decent. I like the AC10 version. More ammo, more protection, more range. Sure, you make less damage on a single blow, but at least you got a range that allows you to reach out to people.
I came here to say the Hetzer. That thing is a bastard for its BV. Messed me up on more than one occasion
Oof, Partisans in MW5.... my problem with them is they don't die very quickly, so they have time to chip at you for a while! Scorpions are basically "I see them, they're dead" so it's more of an accuracy check than anything else. But Partisans... eh....... always a sign of a good tank when the whole lance has to focus it to bring it down in anything like a reasonable amount of time
I really like the Regulator hovertank. I hope CGL makes a palastic one soon.
Savannah masters also paved the way for several other scout Hover designs, including later entries like the Kite. Even if you stick to the SM, you can replace the laser with a TAG and pair them to sub-1000BV artillery or LRM Carriers with semi-guided missiles and rain hell on folks.
Things like the Thumper and Sniper SPAT are particularly deadly even without dedicated spotters due to direct fire potential, as well.
Outside artillery, things like the Anhur (gunship version is a Saladin VTOL) can be rather close to auto-includes.
I note that nobody has yet mentioned CI artillery. VERY cost-effective firepower.
While I will agree with the Savannah Master on general principle (I literally don't even play them because the only person having fun is the one with the SM), I cannot in good conscience agree on either the Saladin or the Partisan. The Partisan (especially the AC/2 variant) is my AA platform of choice. And the Saladin is good because it's bigger and slower than the Savannah Master, but also hits harder. It's high risk/high reward, and it doesn't have a turret, so you have to consider how you steer it. And I've failed enough hovercraft PSRs to know what happens when Lady Luck dips out on you in a crucial moment.
lol. This is a great effort at high quality bait. Good review of the units, too. Absolutely nothing needs a ban
The mobile medium laser of the Savanah Master is matched in the Clan protomechs that mount the Clan Super Large Laser - I mean Clan ER Medium Laser.
I play Alpha Strike, so my picks for efficient units will be different.
1. Bulldog Medium Tank; a very decent and cost effective dog of war to throw into the grinder. It has surprised me and my opponents many times, by virtue of surviving more hits that we think it could survive.
2. J. Edgar Light Hover Tank (MG). Fast enough to cross the board and get behind units to do decent damage. TMM 4 with 3 armour and 2 structure makes it surprisingly durable. Also a good taxi for XMEC battle armour.
3. Charger 1A1. Yes, the Charger. I mostly play objective-based games, for which a cheap, fast assault 'mech is always an attractive option. It doesn't do a lot of weapon damage, making it cheap (18 PV) and that also means you don't forgo a lot of potential damage if it sprints or does objective things instead of shooting. Also makes for a good spotter for indirect fire. And if it gets close; its punches and charges can really bring the pain.
Man I hate the saladin lol. In my mekhq campaigns its been the downfall of many recon lances.
If you're having problems with these troublesome tanks, get some VTOLS. Use them like real-world tank hunters.
My favorite for this purpose is the Peregrine (Kurita variant). It has almost no armor and can be taken out by a single shot from almost any weapon. But it's only 564BV and can deliver up to 26 damage in a single attack. It can also get a TMM of up to 4 (5 in low gravity) with a +1 for being a VTOL. So the enemy is going to be shooting at +5, with range modifiers on top. No need to worry about terrain, unlike with hovercraft. Get it behind the troublesome tank at point blank range, hit it with the 2xSRM4s and you can be confident of disabling the tank. Or napalm them with infernos...
Even Savanah Masters are fair game, because with a max movement of 18, you can hit them at close range in the rear, without worrying about return fire.
The Karnov with the AC20 is also fun. Again, around 500BV, it can take a little more damage than the Peregrine, but only has an average of +3 TMM (+1 for VTOL). Have them do a drive-by on the enemy tanks and the AC20 will give them a bad day.
These choppers are also great against some mechs. I had several 1 hit take-downs of Enforcers, Hunchbacks and even a Rifleman. Weak rear armor makes them prime targets.
There are counters to the VTOL strategy, but they force the opponent to spend BV on specifically dealing with them. And they can usually be avoided simply by spreading out your forces and not flying near the counter unit. The opponent has to keep their forces under the air cover umbrella, while yours can hit them from all directions at once.
My dad loved the Savannah Master, so that would also be on my list. The other two may not be as flashy as the Saladin or Partisan, but due to my personal experience, the Bulldog & Goblin are worth their BV for a combined arms player who knows his stuff.
Thankfully our group kinda has a fluffy vibe to lists, and people get a lot of enjoyment out of trying to get value out of less optimal mechs and vehicles. I can't imagine playing in groups where they would exploit super efficient units like this.
WHHHAAAAA!!!!! "They should be banned!" Need some cheese with that whine?
My "best bang for the buck" for the past 35 years has been the Hetzer, both the AC/20 and the missile carrier versions. And the Harasser- SRM, LRM and laser versions. And missile carriers in general. Battletech had the "roomba with a claymore" meme 20+ years before there were roombas, and an SRM carrier sending 60 infernos your way is like a Hallmark card.
I have 32 Savanah Masters painted as a threat. They dont get played, just displayed to let my opponents know that I am ready for any cheese war they want to start.
Hover craft as a whole seems pretty undervalued to me. There's a dozen or so hovers that could easily replace the Savanah master for cheese value.
I wonder why I only read the SRM Carrier twice. Yes it is pricy with over 800 BV but it also is scary as hell.
At max 60 SRMs could deliver 120 Points of damage and sandblasting everything. Also 60 times the chance to get a through Armor (snake eyes) or a head shot. Okay 30 times is much more realistic but nevertheless when you play with objectives and you need to close, this thing is a scary defender.
However, it is slow and has no turret, so it's vulnerable to jumping light mechs if they have the initiative. Or you can take it apart at range.
I made my own favorite tank. It was a 50 ton hover tank armed with an AC-10 and two machineguns, all in the turret. It is just a tank, but the hovercraft helps it be multipurpose.
The Savannah Master i understand if they're being spammed. The Saladin is less so in my mind since it's nearly 600 BV and has paper thin armor so 1 good hit will take it out. I've seen Wasps destroy them.
The Partisan I'm mixed on. Yes, the BV cost is very cheap for what you get, but it's very slow and has relatively thin armor as well. I find theyre a fantastic counter to Clan mechs!
In the end, rather than ban anything, just have a talk with your opponents. If someone isn't having fun, then find out why and come to a friendly agreement.
Drop the Saladin movement to 7/11. This saved tonnage for armor. This makes it worse.
I was going to comment but lots of folks got this covered; we mainly played 3025 mercenary unit campaigns and only one Clan.
God my brother loved Savannah Masters but I had a soft spot for the Scorpion.
One of my new top choices is the Hunter Missile Tank. Mobile LRM 20 that has medium speed at 5/8. Never appreciated that until now. Especially when using indirect fire.
Top vehicles that I would ban from a game or limit. When looking at the vehicles that are listed those vehicles that one may believe to be banned suddenly look like management tools.
...
HTE Mirco-Copter - A 5/8 MP VTOL support vehicle that when moved to level four elevation may provide LOS to the entire map and recks double blind games. BV 9 - 17 BV crew vet ¾ to elite 0/0. Lucky no mini.
The Ferret Light Scout VTOL - Infantry squad carrier or armored recon VTOL that is good at take and hold objectives or recon scan objective games and just runs breakthrough game like its just a job. May do the same type of actions as the HTE. 98 BV with 4/6 crew. Lucky no mini.
Hi-Scout drones (NapFind/PathTrack) - In 3027 these little buggers dominated the game in take and hold games like they are ants in your kitchen. The prototype raven with ECM or ambushing infantry where the few was to manage them. In the latter years between 3058 - 3072 the use of mag-clamped battle armored infantry like the Fa Shih and Infiltrator Mk II. These vehicle or support vehicles do a good job of spotting for long tom artillery. 11 BV and BV 38 with 4/5 crew.
Gabrial and Savanna Master - Both lightly vehicles as a lance may fit in a Planet Lifter with a 20-ton cargo bay. I place a limit of four of these small vehicles. They may do the same tricks as the Hi-Scout buggers. 218 and 237 BV with 4/4 crews.
Swift Wind Scout Car - The bane of life from TRO 3025 and after. This is a popular Scout for the long tom and other artillery vehicles. When used by a Capellan player could end up moving Fa Shih battle armor around via mag-clamps. BV 100 with 3/5 crew.
Hover Scout “Standard 3027 Hover APC variant” - 5 tons heavier than the Savanna Master the Hover Scout may do some of the same things will just a little less armor. BV 189 with 4/5 crew.
Peregrine VTOL “Kurita and Cargo variant” - Lightning-fast strike and cargo transport these VTOLs are a menace. The Kurita variant could be loaded with infernos to set fires or reck vehicles. As the Cargo variant has swoops in and picks up an objective raid object and runs. BV 564 and 88 with 4/5 crew.
Kestrel VTOL - The 3.5-ton troop compartment is just large enough to fit a platoon of DEST jump infantry or Kaga Light Battle Armor squad. BV 155 with 4/5 crew.
Flatbed Truck “LRM and Mech Mortar” - As the Flatbed was first introduced to me in an ambush scenario towing a trailer that after stopping for the game revealed. Revealed a reverse ambush when a Hauptmann powering up its fusion engine on the trailer. It has been a bane from then on in many a game. The LRM variant may be loaded with smoke rounds or semi-guided to thunders. The mech mortar may be loaded with smoke and illumination rounds for night fighting. Most players play at day. BV 163 and 62 with 4/6 crew.
Do Not bring Tanks all that often but have brought a Flight of Mechbusters once before my local group banned Conventional Fighter as well as Aerospace fighters after that game. (part for slowing down the game to look up rules they did not know and the other was mechbusters are cheap BV(around 400) planes with an AC20 that for not a lot more can also have 10 HE bombs on underwing pilons (if I remember each bomb is like 12BV).
There are three things that scare me among vehicles - maybe unreasonably so, but well... It can't imagine many mechs that dish out comparable firepower, especially considering their pricing.
Shrek PPC carrier - just slightly above the price of half an Awesome, you get Awesome's main firepower. That is downright terrifying.
LRM carrier - because you can't argue with LRM spam on the cheap. Either way - 60 lurms is not something one can ignore.
SRM carrier - this thing just shred things if they get to shoot you. If they don't and if they are hidden, they still act as a very effective area denial.
Remember, when you're ammoing your SRM carrier, put in a ton of Infernos. The other side will hate you.
@@tenchraven Calm down, Satan.
If you are going to use the Mercenaries Support Asset rules for them changes the equation quite a bit.
I don’t think anything needs to be banned. One or two of [insert annoying unit] once in a while is totally fine. The problem arises when someone wants to intentionally exploit a broken unit to minmax and powergame their way into an unfun and uninteresting victory. If I ever encounter someone who, say, brings 40 Savannah Masters to a random pickup game, I’ll simply not play with them, because clearly their idea of a fun game is dramatically different from mine. Thankfully I haven’t really met such BattleTech players!
Just recently I’ve been playing with Clans for the first time and I’ve already decided I’m never going to need more than one Fire Moth in my collection. One on the table is infuriating enough for my opponents.
Oh idk maybe utilize the advanced vehicle movement rules to solve all these problems.
You know the expanded ruleset for combined arms play.
Get good.
Savannah masters are really good at seizing objectives across the board. That's how I use them.
My personal favorite tanks are the Shrek because PPCs and the Manticore because that thing is a beast.
My guilty pleasure is the Stryker light tank. It's nothing special but I like it for no other reason then it looks cool.
I enjoy all of Wargamer Fritz videos
Never could ubderstand how the salidin was not a military tsrget when it came to factory destruction…. Cost near nothing for a ridiculously effective unit.
I wish you had pictures to show, I'm new to BT so it would help...
Damn, the hottest of Fritz Takes!
Striker Light Tank, Pegasus Scout Hover Tank and Warrior VTOL
Savannah master a armed skid steer
Burke Defense Tank, Demolisher Gauss
I think that these all have lower BV than elementals.
Why do those mechs looks so weird?
Tanks that should be banned for disproportionate effectiveness:
Hi-Speed Napfind Hoverdrone
Burke
Saladin
Savannah Master
LRM Carrier
If you had instead said perfect, auto include tanks as it seemed at first, stuff like the Manicure would be on here instead.
I do love me a good manicure
That’s why you bring artillery.
That's....that's not what the term "banned" means.
With a few exceptions most tanks aren't that good since just getting hit can cripple the tank entirely.
I would say the Shrek ppc carrier is good all the way to 3150 era. Cheaper then an awesome.
The Primitive LRM carrier is dirt cheap, take some semi guided or narc capable sounds to make up for the lack of tubes.
Lastly the...chalitoulptin? However you spell that damn clan tank name. Thing has that BS Ferro lamellar armor and clan large pulse lasers. Those would be my top 3 to "ban", using your incorrect definition, and really only the clan tank is the most BS on that deserves a real ban from the table.
Your dislikes seem valid and well-reasones, but have you ever been charged by a Napfind hover drone going 200+ kph?
I only ask because that is what made the top of my list of most annoying vehicles to go up against.
Nothing should be banned.
* Everyone should have one
* The rules need to change
The rules don't need to change, the players just need to be good.
I feel like tanks make a long game a lot longer
One big advantage tanks bring is that they don't have to worry about heat. Plenty of the waiting in Battletech is while players are processing which weapons to fire vs how hot they want their mech to get. With a tank, you're just gonna fire everything in range and hope for good numbers.
That said.. if you love tanks, but find them onerous to play, dip into Alpha Strike. So many of the non-mech unit types work just fine in Alpha Strike but involve rules lookups and extra headache in Classic.
Myrmidon, Hunter, Harasser
Everything has a counter. Respectfully, I find this videos premise hilariously dumb. Following this logic, there are MANY other greater evils than the vehicles you've mentioned. I'm assuming these are problems for your local playgroup?
You get what you sow buddy. You came from 40k and acted like this was a competitive game and its not. It never was..it shouldnt ever be. Its a beer and pretzel rp like system has had rules on rules to allow players to play the game. Not a pug system.
these vehicles are garbage.
Git good
Ur mum should be banned from playing...she uses loaded dice. :P
boy, youd HATE my tank designs. my favorite is my ramm-dodge. its basically a 50 ton shock absorber with a massive armor plate on the front with a move of 10/15. before they put a limit on the amount weapons you could put in a turret, theres my one with 60 machine guns. then theres the little rocket sled that could move up to about 175. oh, i had a vehicle for every job.