CYMBALS in a METAL mix? You better TRY THIS!
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- čas přidán 7. 08. 2024
- Mixing cymbals in a dense metal production can be a nightmare!
Today German producer Kristian Kohle (Aborted, Electric Callboy, Hämatom, Powerwolf) talks about how he mics his cymbals to make them cut through that wall of guitars and he shows you a simple trick to make every single cymbal audible in every mix!
Check out the TECH-DEATH Mixing Ritual and mix this song from DISAVOWED yourself for 19$:
➡️tinyurl.com/2345p32u
Or become a member of Kohle Audio Kult and get all our courses and multitracks from day one of your subscription!
➡️www.kohleaudiokult.com
Check out the entire DISAVOWED album here:
➡️tinyurl.com/265mbdsj
#cymbals #mixingdrums #mixingtutorial
How do you like this little trick? And how do you like the DISAVOWED track? Let me know!🤘
Loved the trick and the song!
Love it. Got the course and gonna start playing with it this weekend. Thanks!
Killer track!! Almost done mixing getting closer! Thanks Kristian!
Great trick! What would you do if you only had two small condenser mics for overheads and no spot mics (not enough preamps) on symmetrical cymbal kit (2 hats, 2 china, 2 crash, 2 rides)?
Enjoy! If you're a Kult member, don't forget to join the mixing kontest in the academy!
@@sjoerdvisser76
Awesome stuff! Really nice to see how you produced the whole Disavowed album, Kohle! We had the best time! Best producer! Hope to make another album with you, Kristian! Cheers! Robbe/Disavowed!
Sitting here waiting! 🥰
Marvellous video! Cymbals can be the bane of our existence! Terrible blend into the snare or most often toms! Thanks for the great video!
TBH when you said "samples" my first thought was SuperiorDrummer or something, didn't expect recordings of the same exact cymbals, but it makes so much sense.
That’s usually what professional engineers mean when they say samples
Yeah this is usually what we do. We record up to (sometimes more) 30s (including breaks to let it ring out) of 1 shots of kicks, snares, toms, and some do cymbals, but imo, not enough engineers I know do cymbal samples. Personally having 2 or 3 samples can be tiring on the ears if you need to sample enhance for a majority of a section.
I love that trick! Especially if you can only mic cymbals via overheads and there are no inputs for any spot mics, this could really help to get the sound right.
And like with your snare bottom sample trick, I love the fact that the samples are actually self-made and not just instances of drum software.
Thanks!
Using my own drum samples from the session is one of the biggest trademarks of my drum tones. Totally recommended!
That drummer played very consistent.....and had a great touch all around the kit
Very balanced player
Moin. The drums are usually the stand out component of your productions for me. You really know what you're doing. Thank you for this video
Thanks a lot! ❤️
Wow this makes so much sense. I had also run into that close cymbal mix problem where it's got terrible warbly phasey effects as the cymbal physically moves closer to the mic after being hit. Fantastic drummer in that track too
Go for it next time. Make sure to record samples!
This is such a smart way to make the cymbals poke through the mix. I used to copy paste parts from the drum track where the drummer was inconsistent with other parts where the drummer didnt it like a wimp, but it was always risky. Cause i could run into phase issues or fuck up the feel of the drums.
It's a very safe method that works perfectly. You don't even have to be 150% precise. You're not gonna run into phase issues.
The only drawback: It takes a lot of time.
@@KohleAudioKult That said, why not give more close mics, but instead of mixing them in, use them as separate triggers for the samples? Then just automate volume of the triggered samples tracks. Less work than with manual pasting.
@@MaciejCzub Because then you would end up with only samples, and thus take away from the organic sound. It would go against the British saying of "If it isn't broken, don't fix it".
Great video!
I moved my splahes above the crashes to cut through better. My chinas are so loud Im trying to move them further away from the overheads. Interesting stuff 🤔🍻
Fixing things at the source is always best!
I love the insight you provide in each video and within the entire kult! But nothing beats coming to your studio and see/hear you do your magic.
❤️
God I love Disavowed. Had no idea you worked with them! Super cool
Timing is everything haha. Just set up this weekend to start new album. I'll definitely be recording some samples to use. 🤘
Great trick!! Thanx!
Great advice Kristian! This would be great for other types of tunes too!
Absolutely. Works for any kind of rock or metal production.
I luv that you started with," its just a lot of work" Fantastically helpfull!!! Thank you!!!!!
Thank!
And yes. You gotta be honest in CZcams 😭
There are nice “tricks” for recording and mixing. But most of them are real work!
Magic shortcuts only exist in shady CZcams videos 😂
The 'fast & dirty rules' we use at our little studio for miking cymbals is as follows:
1) Measure overhead mic diaphragms equidistant to the top center of the snare drum head regardless of their height position. As long as they are both firing toward the snare drum at the same exact distance, height, and axis, then the image will remain intact.
2) We use a very high gain on our Shure KSM32 overhead pair (depending on the situation, and drummer), so maybe a hi-hat and/or ride mic will be added depending upon the situation or if requested.
The technique you showed with using just the kick/snare/overheads, then fill in the gaps of the cymbals is the perfect way to check what's missing. NEVER rely on 'rack tom mics' to give you cymbals, especially in metal. Those are supposed to be gated then 'gated reverb-ed' to taste for maximum effect. You're going to cut your cymbals right out doing that. If you're doing jazz (&^%$@#&^@!!) then you could probably leave 'em in.
Here's a work in progress with just the two mic overhead action: drive.google.com/file/d/1bQk4Rb08H53i45U4lJv0NM4s7Pr31VKX/view?usp=drive_link
Great trick !!! So simple yet never used it. Perhaps this is why it's great. It was under my nose all the time.
Great idea! Never thought of this
The best! If it just wasn't so much work.
Yap, talking about great timing, today we have drums recording day and this is definitely what we will do! Namaste!
I also use volume up to 5dB for specific cymbal hits, and samples of the cymbals themselves also save the entire grove.
Great video \m/
thanks for your tip :)
This is great. I feel like I always struggle on cymbals.
Thank you for this! Cymbals are one of my usual problems.
I just started the course and dragged the multitracks into my Cubase. I'm already excited! Thank you very much for that, that's really great! I love it!!! fiery greetings from hell,. 🔥🤘🔥
Enjoy!
If you’re an academy member make sure to submit your mix both for a review and the contest.
Wow i never thought about this i spend so much time micing OHds picking the right cymbals etc and then dealing with it as it got recorded this will change the whole thing for me
Ingenious solution, haha! At least the samples are from the same session and not a generic library 😄
Sounds very great. When i recording drums i do the same sample recording.
My spot for the ride spot mic is under the ride. Less phase issues and i can let them shine’s.
In my last mix a have do cut a lot at the 6k range in the Overheads. Is it the choice if cymbals?
Thanks Kohle 🤘. And nice to meet you at the Studio Szene in Hamburg 🍻
Death Metal drummers loves their cymbals, and love they are present in the mix, and i too (even i don't be a drummer). And i love how really presents they are in your mixes, they have a nice brigth, sounds big, loud enough, clear and neat. Unlike most modern productions where cymbals sound too dark and weak, even sometimes almost imperceptible. I mean, c'mon cymbals are too necessary and important for the rhythm and the most important piece of the drummer (and song) expression.
Thanks man! Loved to learn here about audio part editor in cubase, it's like the lanes and comp tool in a dedicated window.
I think I should do a video about this because most people don't know
@@KohleAudioKult That would be great! there is almost nothing on the internet about it.
I used the Stereo Enhancer after a while of splitting and panning channels for cymbals to finish on the same group Bus. It's almost the same of panning but you'd save time and CPU power. Namastè.
I highly recommend the tc plethora. Awesome workhorse do everything pedal. Only thing it doesn’t do is drive
Wow! That snare sounds great. I find it always a challenge to get the snare sounding this good without samples when mixing fast music.
It has a lot to do with the source and how it is miked. I’ve got really detailed drum courses inside the academy. Have a look at that!
Ehh, I guess many of us do that :)
Sometimes, when I get tracks into the mix without recorded overheads for sampling, I use automation up to +5dB at a specific moment, for example on splashes, but only at the moment of impact
Hi Kristian, I recently purchased your high gain guitar tone course and I just wanted to say that so far the multitracks have been excellent, and stellar D.I. tracks as well! I've been mainly using the Neural DSP Archetype Nolly & Soldano SLO-100 Amp Sims, and have gotten some very cool results! Best regards. 👹
Great to hear that! Enjoy the course!
Did you get it through the Kult or PMA?
@@KohleAudioKult Thank you! I got it through Pro Mix Academy, I originally found it through your video with Warren Huart about metal guitar amps.
Thankyou
Feels like a video of the performance could be really helpful for this! But yeah really nice trick.
I don't see how that would help.
@@Jazzguitar00 feels like I would miss some of those splash hits. Maybe not if I listen only to OH. But with video I would see him hit it.
Using lin MB from waves also helps since it has the adaptive thing that prevents masking of lower hits from louder hits
For pushing the highs on softer / darker sounding hits or what?
@@KohleAudioKult from what I understood if you have two hits at the same time “roughly” the louder one might mask the quieter, I don’t know exactly how it works internally but I remember reading it on the manual.
I think it is band interactive, if you have a snare and a cymbal at the same time the low mid band will interact with the high mid band to unmask the quieter one.
I love it on cymbals and on the mastering chain for that purpose, I’m not a professional but heard it from one , tried it and liked it.
If you haven’t done this arlready, I’d love to see a video or course on phase relationship / alignment on drums. It seems like everyone has a different approach to dealing with phase on drum mics and I’d love to get your perspective!
I’m not aligning phase and I don’t believe in it.
@@KohleAudioKult damn that’s not the answer I was expecting I’d love for you to elaborate that would be a great vid
great stuff Kriss, as for the spot mics on certain cymbals such as ride, do you cut it off (edit off) in the track when it's not playing or you keep the whole track in the mix with all the bleed there anyway?
That really depends. Sometimes I do that, sometimes I don't. It depends on if the tracks is somehow hurting the overall mix. This is usually the case when you gotta have it really loud.
I have the opposite problem of my cymbals being too piercing in my mix.
Paiste signatures 😍
Best Crashes ever!
Are the sample files a stereo file of the overheads ? Or a stereo file of all the overheads and rooms mics blended together ? Since I record myself a lot for people I want to give sampling my own drums and cymbals a try.
Overheads are enough.
"Digitech RP12". Surprised to see a 30 year old unit. Is this routed through a cab, or an IR?
Hi Chris, machst du dir Gedanken um das Stereoimage des Shellsets bei der OH Positionierung? Snare? Phase issues?
Snare immer Mitte 👍🏻 Toms ergeben sich von selbst ganz gut, sind aber auch nicht so wichtig
@KohleAudioKult danke für den insight! btw. hatte mal Glyn Johns ausprobiert.. funktioniert besser als man denkt..
I was just gonna comment that I would use samples before you did that in the video. When you record the sample yourself in the same session, it doesn't become unnatural because it's the same setup, just separated. Of course if you sample the main crash, hi-hats or rides that get hit often it might end up sounding robotic, but for stuff that gets hit a few times during the song, I would absolutely do that.
But what about the kick drum, is the sample also self recorded at the beginning of the session or do you use a pre-made one?
Kick drum always depends. I sometimes use my own samples, sometimes a sample from a library, very often something blended.
I haven't even tried to record drums in a long time, but back when I did, I always had a hard time with the kick and ended up just completely replacing it. Part of it was that our drummer played very inconsistently, but I also just couldn't nail the sound.
HP at 7400kz and shelve it there as well usually fixes the problem
I also see the problem as a drummer problem as well; it cannot be solely the engineer's job, drummers must also critically listen to their drumming recorded without much magic. Say if you add tiny splash into a whoosy, full of cymbal part, then it is an arrangement mistake. Or if you hit the china harder than you hit the snare it is again going to be near impossible to fix the recording. So drummers have to learn the type of drumming that can be worked with. (Just like string players must learn muting the strings that are not played, regardless if they are bass or not.)
I agree. I’m a perfect world the drummer would solve this.
And one of the first things I do before a session is talking to the drummer about reducing the amount of cymbals. That usually really helps
@@KohleAudioKult The techniques are amazing and the video is great, very informative - great job on that! It was also great seeing how even pros do things by hand!
What you said can be also a great video idea, with a real drummer, to record the "mistakes" and then record it the way it would slay and then compare the two.
I have to know: What is that "toilet" track? By the way, this info is gold!
You gotta get the full course to find out ;)
It's worth it
Did you also cut out all of the tom tracks whenever the drum isn’t being played? Interesting idea!
Yes of course. I always do that
Still waiting for that Black Metal course with the song that was featured in the original Kohle Audio Kult promo video. Just saying…
Haha! That's just a two riff thingy. But we'll have a Black Metal Mixing Ritual coming up soon inside the Kult.
@@KohleAudioKultNice! I meant the track that had vocals and drums and pretty much everything, not the outro used for the videos (although that’s a cool track too).
This is actually a nice drum sound, still sounds like an actual drum kit lol. The problem I have with most metal productions is that they just sound way too artificial. And the cymbals especially are usually the biggest victim of the common over-compression in the genre. There are few things that turn me off more to a mix than clinking, clipping cymbals.
Probably gonna get flamed but...does anyone know of any sort of course for 90s grunge production? So many different options for metal but nothing for 90s grunge.
We got a stoner rock song mixing course inside the academy. Not too far! Check it out:
www.kohleaudiokult.com/courses/stoner-rock-multitracks
@@KohleAudioKult thanks!!
I was wondering... how do you mic the ride?
I have lately switched to miking the ride from below.
Needs more EQ, but has a way better isolation from the other cymbals
@@KohleAudioKult interesting... what kind of microphone do you usually use for that?
@@papilobitry an sm57
How about rude series? In one of your videos you said that heavy cymbals don't fit for recording
Terrible! (Except for the rides)
Ironically all the cymbals they make for metal don't work for metal.
@@KohleAudioKult hm... i was inspired for drumming by Joey Jordison. But all his best songs was made with rudes. They gives more atack. It's importent, cause guitar distortion absorbs all sustains. And remains only atack sound. The same thing with kick drum. But you know it. Than why heavy cymbals don't fit metal? It sounds great
@@KohleAudioKult another example with rudes is Inferno from Behemoth or Dave Lombardo
Man Hi hats are the worst for me! But Cymbals are very hard too!
The hi-hat is the worst thing to mix. They either sound bad or you can't hear them. I intentionally write them out of my music. 😅
You said it yourself, sometimes the drummer hasn`t got the time to properly hit the cymbal. Well, then either he should practice more or change the drum part because then you listen to the record and it sound very good and when you go to see the live show they sound like it`s their first rehearsal. I NEVER work with samples. Get your sh together and play properly and the rest comes naturally after.
In a perfect world that totally makes sense. But not if you have to make real records with real schedules and budgets.
I like it when the drummer only has a ride cymbal, bass drum, and a snare. (I like my mixes dense and brutal)
oh man, i’ve had so many drummers over the years lecturing me about using drum samples and how ‘unnatural’ it is or whatever...
most of them have no idea what they are talking about, just criticizing a tool
Drummers love my cymbal samples!
Drum shell samples can be abused though and make things sound clinical.
Sexy tone!
hi-hat belongs to the left 😜
Not for the audience
see you in heaven lover
With most of the viewers, this is a phase disaster waiting to happen.
Now be honest - are you so used to wearing a beanie that you need to cover your ears at this point or the mixes come out different?
If you pay close attention to my videos, you see that the beanie gets always lifted in all critical listening situations.
In a video like this I'm showing things that I have done before. I could do that wearing a helmet.
You could make a million dollars just by selling online the t-shirts you wear in your videos.
boys...and...GIRLS
I'd love to see more girls in the world of metal production!
Haha Im right here 🤘😂
Cymbals are annoying. I hate listening to cymbals when I want to enjoy some metal.
Never trust anyone with colourful slamcore tats and a hipster sock in their head. Chances are they know nothing about heavy metal
What clothing could he wear to appear more authentic and beautiful in your eyes?
Here’s a great tip:
It’s always better to listen to someone’s words instead of looking at tattoos. 😇