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Stage Kit Secrets, What Harley-Davidson Doesn't Tell You
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- čas přidán 21. 10. 2021
- Stage kits are a popular item in Harley-Davidson's Screamin' Eagle catalog but the catalog can be a bit misleading. The stage kits sound like they move sequentially adding more parts with each stage. In reality you've got to be careful what you buy and where you start with a stage kit. Starting in the wrong place can lead to replacing parts you've already bought, paid for and installed. This leaves you out a lot of money on the previous stage moving to the next.
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Does anyone have a Screamin Eagle Stage Kit with an aftermarket cam?
I'd love to see what a Stage 4 131 kit can do with a good aftermarket cam.
I have a dyna fxdls that I did a 117 bolt on kit but with a woods 777 cam instead of the cam in the kit. It runs phenomenal.
Waiting for a tuner that will work with ‘21 RDRS then I will find a cam and upgrade. Probably be a while.
I have a 21 road glide with a stageIV.
I believe zippers has one
@@parkeslife4323 probably hang with a 143 with no problem.
Lol yeah I'm sure you're not getting an invite to any Harley functions but Truth hurts sometimes and you are dead on with everything you put out there thanks brother
Just ran across this post . Harley is confusing on there stage kits for sure . 2008 heritage classic , Last year installed power vision with target tune , fueling cam plate , oil pump , andrews 48h cam , Cobra power pro 2 into 1 , SE high flow a/c , gaskets bearings , all came with the bike . Put a big smile on my face , what a change . Now I have run across a obsolete SE part # , never used stage 2 103 kit , minus the high flow a/c. For $275.00. Hear the bump in compression makes this cam really nice . Also saw video on having cylinders bored and so on to bump compression. Looking forward to a wider smile ! If I hadn't come across the deal , still would be content with what is already there !
YOU ARE FRIGGING AWESOME BROTHER. A REAL BREATH OF FRESH AIR. YOU KEEP ON KEEPIN ON..AMEN
Really appreciate your honesty and courage. This video keeps the playing field fair and true.
Thank you, I appreciate the support!
Another great honest video. They play on selling things to guys who know nothing about engines. Gimmicks. The basics to increase performance. Heads for compression, cams that work with the valves in the head. Performance bearings to handle the extra load on the engine. The piston still only sucks in what it is capable of sucking in regardless of the cams or valves. Now there are forced systems that will push more air and fuel in. Unless you have an engine test stand you are shooting in the dark. By the time you spend on all of that over priced parts and labor you could have put a drop in crate engine already built for performance. Crate engines are already tested for performance. For myself I had to purchase a screaming eagle jet kit just to get the carb to work right with the heads that came on the bike. Harley knew I would have to jet the carb. I put a 3/8 hole in the single plug in my stock exhaust, instant stage one exhaust. I also switched out the intake to a screaming eagle cleanable filter to save me money on air filters over the life of the bike.
I will say the Screamin Eagle kits are tested combinations and you usually do hit the advertised power at a minimum. But then again there are a lot of shops out there that have tested and put together some killer combinations that make some big power. Generally following the basics with a good tune still nets some very impressive results as well too.
I really appreciate your honesty in this video... I am a new Harley rider and agree I am going to wait until my 2 year warranty is up before i do anything ... I got stage 1 because i couldnt deal with stock
True dat. HD needs to appease the EPA...the aftermarket has more tolerance for running afoul of the EPA.
EPA made an example out of them on that SE Super Tuner, EPA is trying to come after the aftermarket now.
@@GixxerFoo I'm Canadian what exactly is the EPA something to do with pollution I think I'm not sure??
Great vid! The old drag race quote really applies here, "speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?"
A great part two video would be explaining to folks how they also need to plan for Dyno tuning on each upgrade stage in addition to the cam you mention.
Best thing to do when shopping parts/upgrades is look at the torque curves and determine how you want the bike ride, and choose based on that. Another good vid here!
I'd love to see you on new bike reviews, good luck on press invites!!
Thank you, I appreciate it! That's the other down side to making a lot of engine changes is the tuning, canned tunes work but you leave a lot of power on the table.
Another engine building saying is …
The bigger you go the faster you blow.
Harleys weak point is also the SE tuner with EPA compliance..many will also say the m8 SE lifters are sub par. I'm also seeing bikes with stage 2, 3 and 4 using the same cam..Zipper Performance Redshift 468 and loving it
Absolutely great video on this topic and directly to the point! In doing my Twin Cam 95" build I did some Screamin' Eagle, but mostly aftermarket which in the end saved me a few $ and I got exactly what I wanted and didn't waste time or money. Thank you Gixxer once again for your infinite "wisdom"👍
Thank you! Yeah I use some SE parts but the cams just don't get you where you want to be. The heads are pretty decent but it's cheaper to send your heads out and have them ported for exactly what you're looking to do.
Personally, I'm just doing stage 2, on my Fat Bob with Reinhart slip-ons. If I want to go really insanely fast, I just ride my not stock R1.. 🙃
Thanks for the Vid...... '09 CVO Ultra (new) dealer installed Stage 3 CVO upgrade, 10 1/2's, SE259e cams, etc. She dyno'd at 98hp, xxTQ. I had the 7 year warranty. Much HP left on the table. No desire to run HD cams again. Troubles with SE tuner (detonation) , swapped for Thundermax, was able to get a stronger tune, still short of 1hp / inch. (103hp)
Those SE tuners are pretty lean sometimes and the curves can be screwy. There's a lot left in that engine, a good S&S or Wood cam would really make it come to life. Still really good numbers though with the 259E!
Yeah, I don’t see any invites coming your way so I guess you’ll just have to bask in the adoration of your grateful subscribers who appreciate your honesty. Hope that’ll be adequate for you. Thanks for another informative video.
Deal! I appreciate the support!
1970 Buick GS came in stage 1 and stage 2 variants.
What are the things I like about your channel is you hold no punches what's good as good what's bad is bad and if you worked at Harley as a salesman or a mechanicI would rather have you work on my bike than anyplace else or anyoneand this is coming from a guy that works on his own bike
I have a 2013 wideglide 103 with a stage 2, I'll go with the s&s 110 kit when the time comes
The S&S 110 kit makes some serious power, pair that with the S&S cam and it will really run hard.
Man you really helped a lot on making my decision on my next investment with my motor. Thanks.
114 to 122 uses cam from Stage 2 and subsequently stock heads. Can add SE ported heads and bigger throttle body later and wind up with a Stage 3.5....lol The only "waste" is would be the Stage 2 pushrods if gong from Stage 2 to 122 ci.
Keep up your good work mate,i enjøy your videos:)Made my MC licence in mai this year at age 51.Bought a brand new Suzuki SV 650 2019 and bought a used XL 883 1993 a little later cause i want to keep it more simple:).Droven the Sportster over long the mountains/ 3 days tripp here in Norway.Going to sell the Suzuki and keep the Sportster.Harley ..everthing fits almost a wise man told me coupple of years ago.Gonna watch your videos and might pick up one or 2 things of you cause you sound 100% genuine :)
Thank you, I appreciate it! The SV650 is a really fun bike! 883 is great bike to ride though the mountains, they have plenty of low end torque for those roads.
I ordered my 20 Breakout brand new. The dealer steered me towards a Wood Knight Prowler 22x cam, pipes, intake and a tune over a SE stage 3 kit. They told me that as long as they installed everything my warranty forever would be intact. I've got that in writing and my dealer has been great. I'll take aftermarket parts over SE any day as long as the warranty is honored. I saved thousands and gained more hp and torque.
You have an awesome dealer that believes in and stands by their work! Harley-Davidson won't warranty what they are doing so the dealer will warranty it on their own. That's awesome they put it in writing for you and the fact they were honest with you about a cam swap versus an entire engine kit!
@@GixxerFoo tell me about it. I bought it in April of 20 when no one was selling anything due to covid. My wife and I were considered essential workers then and I'd already saved $2500 to put down on it and they were eager to sell. Even better was that Harley Financial would only give me 7% apr with over 800 credit scores so the dealer turned me onto a local credit union and got me their lowest rate at 3.75% making payments only $367. My dealer has been wonderful. I was concerned after hearing horror stories about dealers but I guess I got lucky. 3 State Harley Davidson in Bossier City, Louisiana. Love your channel too. Ride safe.
I just traded in my Road Glide with a aftermarket custom "stage 2" (pipes, air, Woods 555 cams, lifters, S&S headpipe, Power Vision, etc.) for a certified new trike (yeah, I'm getting old and I now have aftermarket parts in my knees). I'm putting on new air, a SE tuner, and Tab 4.5 w/Zombies and going to wait the 12 months for the warranty to expire then ... it's GAME ON! Yeah, I'll be "wasting" that SE tuner, but to keep the warranty for a new used bike is worth it. But as you said, cams make the power and SE cams basically suck ... because they need to be EPA compliant.
Just glad to hear you're staying in the wind! I think a lot of us have wasted some money on the SE tuner to get by until the warranty expires. Lol I know I did!
@@GixxerFoo Thanks. After watching a couple of your videos I'm already planning out the next thing for my 114. Definitely going with a DynoJet Power system again, not sure if I'll just go with the Commander or the Vision (the cost of the Vision has really gone up) and most likely an S&S pump and plate. Going to replace the head pipe (not sure if I'll go with S&S like before or one from Tab Customs. Biggest thing I'm on the fence about is the cam ... S&S 475 or Wood 22XE. I keep going back and forth. I really want a kick in the butt at takeoff since I'm now riding a 1250 pound pig.
Thank you for this video!!! I am new to Harley with my 2013 RKing with 103 and I am researching what I may want to do for upgrading and this video just cleared a ton of stuff up for me.
This video was educational. I'm planning on a Stage 2 but will look into other options besides Screamin' Eagle. Thank you.
Thank you! You really do get a lot more power with aftermarket cam swaps! I've have cam videos on Twin Cams, Milwaukee 8's and Evo's if you need some ideas!
I was under the impression i could upgrade in stages. Glad my dealer explained it to me how it really works.
A good dealer will explain to the customer that it doesn't work sequentially and the best place to start is where you want to be.
Stages ,Stages, Stages everybike needs an air cleaner & exhaust but it should be a mess big sucker air cleaner - preferably a Thunderheader exhaust & a tuner that will get you started in the right direction all other modifications will depend on how fast you want to go & how much cash you have ! Screaming chicken parts are a compromise at best look to the aftermarket for everything else ! At my shop I am the warranty ! Hell I got 80 cu in bikes out there that will out run most of screamin chicken bikes ! I had a guy just the other day that told me the worst sound he ever heard was when my 80 incher blew by his 117 M8 !
I wouldn't feel too bad about getting smoked by a Evo on a M8 especially after hearing what's in your Evo!
Very informative! I really did not know this.. Thank you brother
Happy to help!
My first Harley was a brand new XL1200T! Kept it stock until the warrantee ran out. Did the stage 1 with V&H twin slash exhaust with the Screamin' Eagle Round High-Flow Air Cleaner and V&H FP3 tuner. Even with the V&H quiet baffles I could not here my GPS! Even after spine surgery the XL1200T suspension was too much. I took it to the dealer to get an idea what it was worth, UKE’s asked me to test ride a 2019 FXLR. I went over very rough roads and was amazed! No back pain. I refused to ride the XL1200T any further and signed the documents.
Uke’s Dyno was down so I could not get a ”Stock” reading. I wanted a Stage Two 100HP+ ride. Went with Screamin’ Eagle upgrades and an extended warrantee. Hi Flow air filter, Hi flow aluminum intake manifold, Street Cannons, Torque cam, Pro Street Tuner and the Smart Tune PRO Automatic Tuning Module with the wideband O2 sensors.
Very disappointing, 94hp and 105 torque on the Dyno! Expensive enough to miss the 100HP+ mark! I only have 500 miles on her but the dealer told me that once it is broken in I should see over 100HP. Wonder if that will ever happen?
It's very fair to say once it's completely broke in you'll see over 100 horsepower, that motor with only 500 miles on it is still very tight. I honestly hate new bikes just for that break in period, they run hot due to all the break in friction. But once you get them broke in it is totally worth it!
Big fan of stage 3 119/122. BUT..
heads up MoCo replaced the designed for the higher 11-1 compression stage 3 kit, 498 cam & springs for the can’t breathe or rev 447 torque cam.
I think this was done because a stage 3 could produce power just a smidge short of the cash cow stage 4 kits. MoCo didn’t want you to know you could get 95% of the power for less than 50% of the kit & labor price of the stage 4.
Just tell your dealership you want the 498 cam & springs instead of the 447 cam & springs with your stage 3 119/122.
FWIW the 498 cam doesn’t lose bottom end torque like the stage 4 515 cam it simply doesn’t make quite as much top end HP. I have a fall of 2019 stage 3 114ci with 498 cam. It dynoed 116 HP and pulls at 2k rpm in town better than my stocker did.
Great shout out to Kerker and Supertrapp. As a kid in the 80's those were the go to brands along with Vetter . I would say a build on your engine should always start with a good, solid base. Like a good boxer,football player you need a good base,footwork. Darkhorse crankworks is where I would start. Then their compensator. A proper primary chain tensioner is next. Hayden or Baker. I belive once you do that, your engine is ready to reliably take on whatever you wanna do next. Kinda like a muscle car engine with forged internals.
Thank you! You're correct there starting with the crank and working out from there! You get a good crank in and invest the money from the start you've got a solid engine that's going to last forever. Even at rebuild time using quality parts from the start makes your rebuild so much easier with less items to be replaced.
No ; not the motor company 😁
Got out for ride today. Wife had not ride for a year .
Great hearing the twin cams roar side by side .
Autumn in the air -
✊🏻👌👍🙏👋👆
That's awesome, it is perfect weather right now to get out and ride! I need to get my wife out too, she hasn't rode her bike in a while!
@@GixxerFoo ✊🏻👍👌
I understand wanting to have a better performance on your bike, but I don't see the point on spending a big amount of money to have a faster bike that still not going to get close to a sport bike, I think that a stock twin cam engine is enough for crusing on any highway with a stage 1 or 2 kit, but that's my point of view, greetings from Nogales México....
I agree as I used to ride sport bikes, but a hot rod Harley can be a lot of fun just simply how they deliver that power. It's a whole different world having the power the inline 4's produce up top down low in the rpm range.
Thanks, I'm coming here (Harley Davidson) from a Goldwing past. Learned a lot over the past few months. Love riding my Road Glide but must admit, my goldwings came nicely equipped or fully equipped. My glide comes with shifty shocks an a shiter seat lol. Bacteria to your point, I was planing on having stage II done but maybe just a screaming eagle module until I'm out of warranty. Then after market parts
Thanks Nick in Az
Nice explanation. If I could purchase a new Harley-Davidson I would probably be satisfied with a Stage II as that is essentially what I have on my 2002 carbureted bike.
The Stage II cams make a big improvement on the M8's, but 2002 is one hell of a bike. It's got the best bottom end and you can really build one of those up.
Great information as always.My 05 Deuse is a B motor.kind of a odd ball.Iv only upgraded the cam plate and put in a high flow oil pump.And hydraulic tensioners.But as long as it runs well as is why fix it if it's not broken.For what it is its a pretty fast bike all things considered.
Thanks for sharing, they do run very well! The B motor is with all those upgrades is hard to beat!
Robert Rosson I don't think there's any reason to put cams lifters what-not-inn unless you've done the improvements that you did. As in high flow oil pump cam plate and tensioners. I'm no mechanic but I think that makes the bike so much more reliable then you can go with Cam and lifters if you like!! IMO!!
@@danwhyte3524 I agree
Run fueling or S&S parts, can't go wrong.
I couldn't agree more, they both have awesome products that are a huge improvement.
Thank you sir for all your information, I appreciate it greatly.
Great info, I was going for stage 2 but will go for stage 3 THX
Thank you, I appreciate it!
I have a 15 Rushmore with 52k on it and because I’m keeping it decided I wanted to freshen it up so I had a stage 4 done and didn’t change the cams because I wanted all the parts Harley engineered for the motorcycle. I did have my heads freshened up with new seals , guides and ported as well as a SE billet cam plate and high pressure oil pump , new tensioners and street tuner to preserve the one year warranty from Harley. The bike came off the Dyno at 118 hp and 124 tq. Which I was happy with.
One of the guys that works there in parts had the same kit done on his 15 SE but only had the kit done without doing his heads, cam plate or oil pump, probably due to the cost but he did replace the 259e cam the kit came with for an S&S 585 cams because of their popularity and the same guy that did my Dyno also did his and told me my numbers were considerably higher than his came out.
Going the extra mile like you did with getting everything gone through made a big difference on your bike! Those are some really impressive numbers!
The only advantage i see to buying your „stage kit“ from the Scream‘n Eagle catalog is if it lets you stay emission legal in places they enforce both emission & look rules, like Europe. The warranty would be another plus but I’ve seen to many horror stories in the forums on warranty claim denials on dealer installed options.
That is a huge plus on the stage kits in areas strict on emissions. If you get a new bike you have 60 days to get a stage kit done get it totally covered under the 2 year or extended warranty. After that you only get 1 year, but even then they don't like to cover issues from the stage kits.
@@GixxerFoo right on bro
Thanks for the information. I had no idea how the Stage kits worked nor that I'd be buying a new cam each time. Keep up the good work.
Did stage 1 then s&s 583 cams on 2015 twin cam. That's enough power for me bike is a monster.
A good aftermarket cam set goes a long ways and does wonders for the big twins!
I'm new to the harley world and knew right away to go to exactly the stage I'm interested in (stage 4). Don't know if my 41yrs of riding experience was a factor but it seems like a no-brainer to me.
That saves a lot of money just getting it all done at once! A lot of people don't like the upfront cost but you spend more piecing it together over time.
The elephant not being discussed is the reliability impact versus stock, not so much Stage I or II but once you get into cams and higher compression. I wonder how much impact it has on engine wear.
That really depends on care, riding habit and maintenance as with anything. There are some things on the stock Harley platform even with their stage 4 added that may be of some concern. For the most part they can be very reliable if you add the additional required parts to match.
The more you juice the orange the sooner it will run out just a fact of life… you can build good reliable race/performance motors it will just need a rebuild/freshen up sooner than later… they are built to be run and run hard not a leisurely drive to the supermarket 😎🎉
This is where a competent parts guy and service writer steps in sells you what you actually need! Just a heads up, you can order a whole Stage Kit, or you can break it down and order certain parts, just what you NEED!
I've seen some great counter guys at my local dealer, a guy was looking at a stage 4 kit and they flat leveled with him. With the cost of the kit and the installation charge it was cheaper to buy a 120ST and have more motor and less labor cost on the install.
I purchased a 2021 Lowrider S from the dealer here in Aussie and as part of the stage 2 upgrade they nominated and fitted the S&S 475c cam,which I only knew about from previous videos on this channel. It made the sale to be honest as I wanted a new bike with some life in it but didn't want to invest in Screamin' Eagle gear I wouldn't want after the warranty expired
That new S has got to be a blast to ride with that cam in there! It's a good call going with the aftermarket cams, they cost about the same and you just get so much more out them!
Great info in all your videos. I have a 2014 flhtp 103HO with 28,000 miles is there anything I should be concerned with at this time?
I’m perfectly happy with both of my TC 103 bikes after doing a stage two with S&S cam chest kits. If the time comes to do a rebuild on either motor I may consider going stage three or stage four since I will be doing a tear down anyway. For now, my Harley’s both move me down the road just fine and they sound great doing it.
Well I have a 2014 road king with the ho 103 and a v&h fuel pack tuner...and it performs really well...
Those FuelPaks work great on the fuel injected 103's, it gets the fuel in them and makes the necessary timing adjustments. It's really a night and day difference!
@@GixxerFoo yes it does.
..I just have old school fishtail slip ons and I can still tell a difference
I talked to the service manager at my Harley-Davidson and he basically told me the only safe investment is the stage 1. The best thing to do from stage one is save up for the stage you really want.
That's the way to do it honestly, get your exhaust, tuner and air cleaner and do it all at once to get where you want to be.
I'm relatively new to Harley (2 years) and am loving my Sportster 1200L to death. While I appreciate the vast selection of aftermarket accessories, if I had wanted raw speed & power over everything else, I would have just bought a four cylinder Japanese sport bike -- "One and done".
I rode inline 4 sport bikes for years, the thing I noticed was just as they started to really run you had to shut it down. But the Harley on other hand a Harley can makes more power and torque way down low were you can use it. Lol I used to get smoked off the line by Harleys.
@@GixxerFoo... that was probably me on my 1st ever Harley 1200 sportster in '88. I did that every time. Crazy, right?
I want to eventually take my stage 1 TC88 to 100ci. You hit exactly what I'm struggling with.. I've been trying to figure out how to do the cam chest now, and do the cylinders later. Doesn't seem you can without re-buying cams. ( I'm not a motor head but think I can do this) therefore I'm leaning toward an all inclusive s&s performance package.. it's just a difficult pill to swallow with the cost of things right now.
You can update your cam chest without even touching the heads... You'll need to cut your pushrods and then go back with adjustable pushrods. This will allow you to update the cam chest without even having to crack the rocker boxes.
@@GixxerFoo yeah. I know that but I want to buy the cam once. Not sure I can run the s&s 585 or a comparable wood cam without doin big bore kit w/ higher compression. I'll prolly have to save my pennies and go for it all at same time. If I'm cracking the rockers to do springs, I'll likely want to just go ahead and do it all at same time..
It seems to me and I am big time guilty of doing this in the past. At stage two installing too big of cam(s) thinking in the future when I do heads big bore etc. I do not need to buy another cam. Then you ride the bike another year or two and never go stage 3. You trade or sell bike and start all over. I realized I could of had a better performing bike if I went with a milder cam that was made for parts currently being used on the bike. My current bike I went with the MR-103 S&S cams. knowing it may be ok for a mild big bore build. But also knowing if I want to go more aggressive I will want to change cams again. In the case of HD scremin eagle I think its smart to not over cam. Forums are full of disappointment with people bolting in too big of cam(s).
Too big of a cam can really ruin the rideability of the bike, you can lose your bottom end and then have it explode in power on top. The MR103 is a very versatile cam, it works very well on a otherwise stock bike. I like it since it works even better when you do get into some mild head work or bore increases as well.
Great info as always. I always looked at a stage 2 as the way a bike would run from the factory if there wasn't an EPA. After that I would say that an engine should be designed for what you want, right from the start. There isn't much sense in constantly rebuilding and moving from one stage to the next. Build it the way you want it right from the start. I personally wipe my ass with the warranty but to each his own.
The warranty really isn't worth a whole lot in many cases, but some people are really hung up on SE parts and the warranty coverage. Honestly the main issue with the M8 is the sumping and Harley is very reluctant to do anything with it under warranty.
@@GixxerFoo I'm not surprised. I've never had any luck getting Harley to do any warranty work or honoring the few simple recalls I've had over the years.
There is zero reason to ever buy a Harley brand new, especially if you have no need for a warranty. I have several HD's and I have the one I bought brand new 22 years ago before I knew any better. Love the brand and love you slinging the truth to the masses GixxerFoo!
Hahaha, I thoroughly enjoy your videos. I think you'd make a Great stage 4 Harley sales representative.
I don't have anything against the screamin eagles stuff but I am definitely an S&S guy.
(Proven performance)
Great video and you nail the truth every time the screaming eagle parts are good the problem is the map tuning they use and the cams are well you know that’s why after your advice I went to fuel Moto got woods 555 cams and jackpot mufflers once done end of December I will let you know what it dvnos out at and FYI to all if you do any performance upgrades and keep it under warranty you must do it the first 90 days of purchase no exemption and the extended warranty starts the day you buy your bike every one have a good weekend
Harley's street tuner doesn't allow the air fuel ratios to be adjusted, no matter what timing and cylinder VE adjustments are made it's still running at the maximum lean ratio per throttle position. The cam and exhaust from FuelMoto is going to be the ticket!
@@GixxerFoo yes and that’s why I’m having it dyno tuned can’t wait they said I should see high 90s on ho and over 100 fp torque can’t wait
Did screaming eagle air cleaner and pro tuner with tab headers and zombies. Will aftermarket cam once warranty is up with new tuner.
You think you could give us some info on Switching out handlebars ,extended cables and such for different bikes? I think there's a lot to cover on this topic when you're getting into older and newer bikes.
There's quite a bit involved in a handle bar change, it sounds pretty simple but it can expensive in a hurry. Depending on what you get you will likely need new throttle and clutch cables, brake line or new line for the clutch if it's hydraulic. Then there's the wiring, you will need to get the wiring extended with a plug in kit if available depending on the year. A lot of people get sticker shock when they get a quote on a simple handle bar change.
My biggest beef about the S.E. line of performance parts, is, I feel, some of them should have been installed at the factory. For example, the stock cast cam plate, is just only adequate in stock trim. For a product touted as a " premium motorcycle," some of the hardware should reflect this description. By installing a cheap, cast cam plate, future upgrades with bigger cams, etc, would leave the stock cam plate as a weak link. Uprated power output, I feel, would further stress the cheap, cast unit, and possibly lead to cracking, or sim.
Also, the cheaper Cam Bearings, installed, are usually replaced by stronger, better designed units. So, why didn't the Motor Co., install these improved parts as stock? I feel, so that they can double dip into your wallet, and upsell you their S.E. parts. The Motor Co. already backpedalled when going from the reliable, strong, dual-Timken Flywheel Bearings, to replacing the pinion side with inferior, weaker, straight roller type bearings. Don't get me wrong, I, like many others, dig Harleys, but feel they could do much better with their initial offering, and install better parts as O.E.M. So, I won't go the S.E. line later on. I'd rather go with S&S, Zipper's, Feuling, STD, or any other Perf. Co for perf. parts.
I agree, the factory parts are good enough if you keep it stock or even add pipes and air cleaner. But if you start adding to the motor you need to buy the heavier bearings, lifters, cam plates, it just keeps going. Some of these are required parts and not even listed in the kits when you buy one.
But, when The Motor Co. went backwards, and went from the reliable, sturdy, dual-timken main bearings, to the straight-roller INA (F), style, somehow cheapens things. Look, I dig Harleys, but the Factory makes some strange decisions at times. Regressing, not progressing. Just a sentiment.
Thanks so much for the response!
Aloha, from Honolulu, Hi!👍🌺🤙
The Screamin Eagle parts line is over priced and in some regards underwhelming for the money invested and the return in overall power gained!!! I 100% agree. The aftermarket community and shops that have been in business for Harley performance can give a better bang for the buck return!!!!
The SE parts really fall short on the cams, pistons and cylinders are pretty good.
Your channel should be required viewing before buying a Harley and or mods.
For example, there is another cycle channel that features a Harley M8 Road Glide called "Silverback". The owner has experienced all the M8 issues you have discussed. If the Silverback owner would have viewed your channel solutions, he would have saved thousands and still have a running bike.
Thank you, I appreciate it! I started this channel after seeing so many people get a deal on a 88 only to find out later why it was so cheap. From there it just kept going so I started putting it out there hoping those who watched the videos would be more informed about what they are buying.
You think that guy with the Silverback M8 is putting up his own money to pump up his Bike?....No he is supported by either HD or some Aftermarket sponsers....Like alot of these CZcams blogers....I watch many for the entertainment...And guys like Gixxer here for the info and straight scoop...
As with any build or project bike boat car etc. First have a plan as to what you want the end product to be otherwise you waste money… they aren’t being sneaky or tricky… As far as the stages… stage2 you can’t maximize a larger cam if you can’t get the air in and out better. Stage3 you can’t maximize extra displacement with a smaller cam. And Stage 4 when you really bump up displacement and cam size refer back to stage2 reasons
As far as aftermarket making more power cheaper that’s all they do… they aren’t R&D entire machine just one small area hence the better attention to detail that’s all they are dealing with. That and they don’t warranty your project/build either
Please do a video on "sleeper" bikes. My 89" bone stock in appearance will be stock looking on the outside but rather than being stock on the inside it will be 4 5/8" stroker with stock cylinders and a CV40 and a EV27 cam to include stock mufflers
That's not a bad idea, there are a lot of what many would consider smaller bore bikes but done right they can put down some power.
@@GixxerFoo yeah, im really looking forward to getting it dialed in Brother! My pants are typically my dyno but I may just fork out the money and get it professionally done and get as much out of it as I can. More to follow. BTW, I love your channel!!
Thanks for the info!
Anytime!
Stage tuning has been around for years but not always with original manufacturers parts.
It went hand in hand with the different racing classes as a way to make racing affordable and more competitive. From bog standard to Blueprint and on through the various stages. The Japanese factories were very willing to supply factory kits for race bikes to give the rider that could afford it an extra edge. So no its not a Harley idea. But directly marketing for street use certainly was. The quote of almost every part maker and supplier that they are for show or off road use only is not just the easy legal cop-out. To many its marketing.
Forbidden fruit always tastes sweeter.
The most important factor is balancing your efforts. It is futile to add big bore pipes and hot cams if your head can not breathe. But if your engine will self destruct from high revs you are limited to adding the power where its more useful and actually better for daily use.
Maybe that knuckle ain't so bad after all!
With a 117, Harley does not offer torque cam or a power cam, however they come with a higher revving power cam as stock. They do offer a Screamin' Eagle SE8-515 Cam. What does it do if you have any idea? All it says is ''The cam’s high lift and long duration profile is ideal for opening the valves to efficiently fill the combustion chamber of larger displacement engines.'' Does not show any dyno charts so do not know if it changes the RPM rev range plus or minus? Want to keep warranty so can not go after market.
If you're looking at the 515 cam that's more of a top end cam, the 117 kit makes something about 120 horse and about 115 torque. What that cam is going to do is push the horsepower and torque higher up the rev range. You lose a lot of low end torque in my opinion but make it up on the big end. I would go with the stage 4 kit rather than just adding the 515 cam, you'd have to change the valve springs out as well. If you're going with just a cam I would do the bolt in torque cam from Screamin Eagle. But on a Milwaukee 8 a cam swap with a Wood WM8-XE will blow away the stage 4 kit with a bolt in cam swap. You'd void the warranty but it's a great option to consider after warranty.
@@GixxerFoo You said, ''If you're going with just a cam I would do the bolt in torque cam from Screamin Eagle.'' But with a 117, Harley does not offer a torque cam or a power cam, however they come with a higher revving power cam as stock. So I was wondering if the 117 on a Street Glide ST model has ENGINE TORQUE (RPM) 3750, and the Low rider ST 117 has ENGINE TORQUE (RPM) 3500 (A 114 has ENGINE TORQUE (RPM) 3250) what does the 515 cam do as the 117 in both Street Glide and the Low Rider both have higher RPM power type cams already installed? So why would anyone install a 515 cam in a 117 when they already have a high RPM cam already?
If you’re buying brand new then get the and kits upgrades from HD. If you’re buying used then use an independent mechanic who can do stage 5.
The good dealers will explain the stages of the kits. My dealer has told me to be honest and if I have the money and the desire for power that I should jump in feet first to the stage 4 since I would be wasting my money with the stage 2 and 3 kits if I come back again wanting a stage 4 later. I've bought 5 bikes at my dealer and I've rode with several of the dealers employees at events. I have friends who work at a harley dealer at this point. I want to believe they treat everyone as they have treated me.... speaking of, anyone spot me a $100? Not sure how I'm going to eat until payday🤣
Great content and really well explained as usual. Thank you for these videos, keep 'em coming!
Thanks, will do!
I’m doing HPi 62mm A/C and D&D Billet Cat with big bore baffles with screamin Eagle pro tuner and wide band O2 sensors and going 107-131 via crate engine. After warranty S&S 550 cam is first thing going into it.
Why pay as you said over and over just save a ton of money and just get the 131 kit or 131 crate engine
If you got the cash it's best to jump in there and go where you want to be. It can cost a lot more in the long run coming up short on your performance goals.
Great Info! I've got the stage 1 done, and now I can skip the 2, and 3 and go straight to 4🤗.
The Stage 4 is interesting as it makes roughly the same power in the low and mid range. With the Stage 4 all the power is really up on the top in the higher RPM range.
i enjoy your channel, and vids very much...
i am still digesting the one you did about a month or so ago,,, on the 110cc... from 2010..
meaning i didnt realize till i watched your vid,,, that screamin eagle motors were still just basic...
to be honest when i bought my softail cvo new,,, i really didnt have much knowledge of the screamin eagle parts world...my bike had a major league meltdown back in 2016,,,, luckily i was able to get away with honing,, new KB pistons and rings.. even the oil pump was in decent shape ,,,, though at some point i might put the newer beefed up version at some point..
people love the bike...it is still semi decent looking,,, and basically stock parts still... i do love having a digi oil pressure gauge..i put that on over 10 years ago. as i tell people i have a " love,,, annoyance " with my bike lol
also i run amsoil 60w syn. year round,,,in hot northern cali..top end is ultra quiet..
amsoil 20w.50w in the trans,, and primary.
Thank you, I appreciate it! Dang you got lucky with a hone job and some new pistons, you caught that in time! Most aren't so lucky and end up having to replace cylinders or worse losing a whole motor. Running 60W is a great idea in that weather out there, good oil goes a long way!
@@GixxerFoo thank you very much...i am still at the cross road on HD primary adjuster..what you said in your other vid made sense... so i will look at that...at some point...all of that zone still seemed ok...but you did get me wondering,, on the self adjusting getting too tight..as time goes on...for a bike that is getting closer to 12 y.o. mine is pretty low mileage still.
I have a 2015 Street Glide Special with 30,000 miles. I would like to use the Woods or S&S bolt on CAM with this mileage are there concerns with this mileage?
It just depends how well the bike has been taken care, but with that kind of mileage I would look at a lifter change as well. A good inspection of the cam chest and if everything looks good you shouldn't have an issue.
Have two Harleys ,both 96, both 2010,all stock, go a 100 mph,keeps up with traffic...
The 96 is a excellent torque producer, they won't make as much horsepower with a cam as a 103 but a bolt in cam for sure wakes them up.
I go out of my way NOT to go to the HD dealership. Every 12-15 years is enough.
I don't blame you there!
Well my thought on the dealerships is this. Given the fact that they ARE expensive they are also bound by Harley to follow all recommended procedures regarding repairs which would include proper torque specs, replacing certain hardware, ie; nuts, bolts,washers, gaskets and things of that nature and simple physics and metallurgy does lean towards things like fresh hardware to preserve integrity in fasteners I do opt for the dealership since speed kills and I ride pretty quick. To add to that the mechanics have to be certified by Harley to work there. Not saying anything bad about the independent shops but I’m pretty sure most of them don’t stock all the fasteners required for service. When I see the fasteners listed on my bill I do pucker but at least I feel safer knowing they were replaced. I also like the accountability. I’m sure some will say that their independent shop is great and I’m sure they are but I just don’t want to go around “trying out” various places with my neck at stake. I tried that where I moved to based on recommendations from people that I know and had a guy do 574 cams. Said he’d do a high pressure oil pump and didn’t. Turns out no oil pump change, same cam bearings and bases on what he charged me no new fasteners or gasket kit. When I asked around awhile later I found out he’s a coke head and we know where that goes.
I really like your content. I have a 2014 flhtk with stage 4 103. I don’t like the cam. I do a lot of touring and fully load my bike with wife on the back. We go through the Rockies quite often. I would like better response from my bike. I ride between 2500 and 4200 rpm. Very rarely go above 5000 rpm. I find midrange torque to be modest at best. What would you recommend to wake up my bike? I only have 30k on my bike as Covid and a knee problem kept me down the last few years. Any recommendations would be appreciated. Thank you.
I don't know if I mentioned this before? If you buy aftermarket parts? If you have a warranty bike. And you definitely want the parts. Have the dealership install them. Some will also let you buy them online yourself. Just make sure you get the correct part # and guarantee fitment. HD already got sued for warranty denial for only allowing HD parts. Knowing every buyer will most likely upgrade the bike and if they install any aftermarket parts. They can't deny a warranty if they install the parts already
I just was shopping the catalog and stage 2&3 use the same cam. The size don’t until four. The 2/3 cam is is the 447.
Harley is flat out stealing our money when it comes to a stage 1 or 2 kit. There is no reason the engine should not already have better flowing air, exhaust, and a cam for TQ or HP depending on the model. If the EPA approves of these changes then it should come this way. No tuner needed until the stage 3 or 4 mods.
It is suspicious when you look at the Screamin Eagle slip-ons and open air cleaners. All EPA approved but they give you a restrictive air box and mufflers right off the show room floor.
can you do a break down on the CVO over standard,,, harley doesn’t seem to break it down very clear,, you get the heavy breather and a power cam i believe but nothing as far as what tune has been done or exhaust that is stock on the CVO (road glide)
They have Screamin Eagle mufflers stock, as you mentioned the SE air cleaner and they have CVO heads. You could call the heads mildy ported over stock, they flow somewhat better. The cam is a higher lift over stock, not sure about the M8 but on the twin cam the stock cam was like a .496 and the CVO was the SE 255 with .551 lift. It was really more centered around torque than horsepower. The tune is basically for the parts installed, other than that the engine is stock on the lower end. Of course they were a larger bore depending on the year 95, 103, 110, 114 and now 117.
Very true after the stage 2 you’re pretty well screwed
Man you’re the best!!! Please your advise on this: I bought me a softail standard 2002 with 73K miles on it, as far as the records go, past owner replaced the tensioners and that was about it.
What is the next step to get it faster and more reliable?
I’m new to HD but so far I love my Softail more than any other machine I’ve ever possessed!!!
By the way, I have a Twin Cam 88 fuel injected.
You are 99% correct. The main reason why SE cams are not as aggressive as others is because of EPA compliance. Also, extreme lift cams typically result in early wear ant tear issues. I also think HD rips us off because a Stage 1 should come stock from the Factory, you shouldn't have to spend extra on that.
The SE cams are for sure built with emissions in mind, it's hard to be emissions compliant with high overlap cams. Most bolt in cams aren't super hard on the valve train, now you get into the very extreme Wood cams that could cause some wear over time.
The burdon is on the manufacturer to prove that an upgrade caused a failure!
That is absolutely correct and they will argue about it too!
Great video, I found it interesting. Thanks
Glad you enjoyed it
The video really helped.
Just do Stage I and ride the bike a lot.
Once ready, go to stage IV or purchase the new HD 135 Crate Engine.
Stage II and Stage III are not worth it if I go to Stage IV later because I will be out of all that money already invested from Stage II or Stage III, but my Stage I should be good.
Is that correct? What do you think? I want to keep my warranty. I purchased the bike new in June of 2022. I will have installed a Vance & Hines Black HeadPipe and a Krome Werks Muffler Set (Dual), plus tuning with a new red air filter. Keeping the Stock air-in-take kit (just changing out the filter).
Could you let me know what your thoughts are???
So in essence, if you plan to upgrade the bike with Screamin Eagle parts, you are better off saving your money and making the jump from stage 1 straight to stage 4 and saving a bunch of money in the long run?
That's basically what it is, honestly the Stage 3 is probably the absolute best setup cost and power wise for the street.
you can just buy the SE parts you need seperate. But you should be going to your tuner and buying a aftermarket kit from them.
Exactly support your tuner as chances are they sell some pretty slick kits that perform very well.
@@GixxerFoo they know what works and what dont.
I’m a new Harley owner and I’ve worked this out already
A good dealer will explain the kits to a customer, I've been a fly on the wall and it was kind of passed over. Could of just been lack of product training but hopefully not intentional.
Interesting and informative video as always. I am interested in your opinion on these lumpy high lift cams as they require heavier. sometimes much heavier valve springs. Since this requires more work from the engine simply to actuate the heavier springs. could this cause a in decrease overall engine output and/or excessive valve train wear?
A high lift cam with a lot of overlap using a heavier spring won't decrease power at all or cause excessive valve train wear. When you go with a high lift cam, matched with valve springs and setup up properly with correct push rod length it is very reliable. But of course with a cam like that you need to have the correct compression ration as well or you will go backwards in performance.
@@GixxerFoo Thanks for the quick reply. As usual a concise and balanced answer.
Harley straight up told me that if I intended to go stage 4 then just do stage 1 and then do stage 4...otherwise I would be wasting my money for exactly this reason.
That's awesome, I really like to hear a dealer being honest with the customers!
In other words, just get the stage four right out of the gate and then re-cam it after the warranty expires! That’s what I did!👍
That's the way to do it and you'll save yourself a lot of money in the long run.
Did a SE stage 2 torque cam and tuner on my 21 slim. I am using a fuel moto air cleaner and deans speed slip ons.
With the limitations of the se tuner i see no need to do a stage 3 or 4
Once your warranty is up retuning with a Power Vision will make big difference with your cam and exhaust.
I had the SE 62mm TB, JUNK! With low hrs on the TB the throttle rail broke and I replaced it with a 62mm HPI TB, way better performance 👌
Ty saved me thousands I'm sure. I thought u had to do it in order.
it's not just their stage kits. it's anything in the scremin eagle lineup. i bought a SE Street Canon muffler (sight unseen) and it was NOT what i was expecting at all. the marketing material and picture made it look like there was no inner tail-pipe, but that's not the case. anyway, just my two cents here.
The SE mufflers are not what they used to be, they do flow better than the stock ones and they are really just retuned for sound these days. They are however awesome for low end torque, but they sacrifice horsepower on top.
@@GixxerFoo I was interested in esthetics and sound. I don't race my bike so overall performance is 3rd on the list. I would never recommend that SE muffler to anyone doing a stage1 ever.
any suggesting's for a totally stock 2007 fxstb (fuel injected) to simply increase duration to produce a thumper sound with cams only?
A good cam will give it a very nice lope, you don't want to lower the idle as you risk damaging the top end due to low oil pressure. A good exhaust, air cleaner, new cam set and a tune will do wonders for a stock bike. Here's a video on some cam option for your bike, these are straight bolt in so no valve springs required czcams.com/video/0Ncrl2OWCwk/video.html.
Woo hoo! Another Gixx gem.
So if your end goal is stage 4, I should skip stages 2 and 3?
I would say yes. If you've got the funding for it, look closely at the torque curves in the catalog and think about how you want the bike to perform after the money you can spend on it.
Yes, go big right from the start and save the money if that's your end goal. But I would suggest taking a close at the Stage 4 compared to the 3. The 3 makes just as much power in the mid range, the 4 takes over way on top.
Like I say stage 2 is the most cost effective after that the cost goes up dramatically with the Dyno curve I have a 2020 RoadGlide s stage 2
Really a great running machine.This is my 7th HD the prior bikes all had some level of build.At 64 I am too old to chase every last HP.Labor and parts cost be it an H-D dealer or Indy mechanic the cost is out of wack.Screamin eagle and Harley are exceptional parts still winning national championships. Harley warranties the upgrades at purchase any parts you buy at the dealer and have them install comes with a one year warranty
Look at a cvo sick expensive but they are complete sounds quiet in the neighborhood get it on the road and hit it and it is all Harley.These are heavy baggers if you want to go fast cheap buy a metric and ride your Harley as intended, save the performance dollars for your next bike.
Yes...
A lot of guys get stuck on the HD parts thinking the two year warranty is important.
The warranty covers everything on the bike, but if you make changes to the engine it doesn't void the entire warranty on the bike.
@@GixxerFoo Oh I know. I know that there are far better options in the aftermarket for performance improvement in a Harley engine than the SE stuff. And really, unless one does the HD extended warranty, two years goes by mighty fast, after which one is stuck with the lesser performing SE build. If one starts with a known, reliable, independent builder with an established reputation, the whole two year thing becomes kind of irrelevant, assuming performance is the goal. In addition, I would never have an engine built to any level unless it was immediately and competently tuned by an established expert. There are tons of poorly tuned bikes running around the country, the "stage" whatever notwithstanding. Unless the tune is spot on, the best performance will not be attainable. Worse, with a lousy tune, permanent damage to ring seal will be done and, even if the tune is eventually fixed, the build will still not perform like it could have when new.