HOW TO GET THAT SNAPPY BOOST RESPONSE! BTR STAGE 2 TURBO VS SIMPLE TORQUE CAM. FULL DYNO RESULTS
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- čas přidán 23. 08. 2023
- HOW DO I IMPROVE BOOST RESPONSE? WHAT IS THE BEST CAM FOR IMMEDIATE BOOST RESPONSE? DOES OVERLAP HURT TURBO RESPONSE? DO I NEED A TURBO CAM WITH MY TURBO MOTOR? CAN I RUN A TURBO CAM ON MY NA MOTOR? WHO MAKES THE MOST RESPONSIVE TURBO CAM? WHAT HAPPENS IF MY CAM IS TOO BIG? DOES A BIG CAM WORK WITH A TURBO? DOES A SMALL CAM WORK WITH A TURBO? WHAT IS THE BEST TURBO INTAKE? CAN MY TURBO BE TOO BIG? HOW MICH CAM SHOULD I RUN WITH A TURBO? CHECK OUT THIS VIDEO WHERE I COMPARED TWO COMBINATIONS TO ILLUSTRATE THE CHANGES IN BOOST RESPONSE OFFERED BY DIFFERENT CAM TIMING. ALSO, WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU BUILD THE WRONG TURBO COMBO...DOES IT STILL WORK?
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Richard I sincerely hope you never run out of things to test :)
At higher boost and power levels, the bigger cam will be softer on the rods and bottom end. Something to consider for stock bottom end motors.
Mazda speed guys have been doing that for years.
Again and again you are helping taking the guesswork and myths out of the turbo forums!! The results are facts and that’s all that needs to be said. You are a great help!! Thank you so very much 👍
What is your goal? That’s the first question. If you want to use your truck to pull a trailer, I’d say a small turbo, like 500 hp capable, that will give you boost at 2000 rpm or somewhere close, and probably a stock cam. If you’re building a dual purpose hot rod, choose something bigger and a smallish cam. If you’re drag racing, forget about anything below your torque converter stall speed. This was a great video, thanks Richard!
Richard, you made Friday come a day early! We appreciate everything you do, esp with the 2.2/2.5
Yes, this is excellent information, exactly what we need to see. The more we can learn about how cams intakes and turbos work in relation to each other the better....
Thanks again Richard.
My son has a 2011 chevy cruze eco 1.4t 6spd manual 138hp that has absolutely zero lag and my daughter has a 2016 1.4t 152 hp and is a dog off the line compared to the 2011 138hp version. Smaller cam and turbo gives a much better spool rpm at lower rpms
Great stuff Richard!!
This makes the 5.3 + small cam + turbo even more compelling...but still the 4.8 blows me away everytime. 700hp under 14 lbs with a tiny 202 cam is crazy...tons of torque even at low boost under 10 lbs.
I think a 72 or maybe a 76mm turbo feeding a 5.3 with a 216 or truck norris cam could be an awesome and mild yet incredibly powerful combo for a truck/van that tows occasionally. Thanks Richard!
I have a 7875, 5.3, ported 243’s and a summit ghost cam. Very responsive and comes into boost pretty quickly. Just enough to not shock the drivetrain and destroy everything.
Well plus I suspect the more boost on the stock cam is not really a penalty if you have a good cooler as even though the boost is more the cylinder pressure is probably the same so even with running more boost in this case no need to dock the timing.
man o man MY dude! I've been wanting to find an aluminum 5.3 to re-sleeve for boost to save weight but all these 4.8 videos are making me not really care about that 75ish pound difference. Thanks for putting out so much content R.H.
Have yet to get it in the car... but I put together a 4.8L for a friend a few years ago. Gen IV 4.8L with 68K miles. 706 heads, Gen III intake, TSP 216/220 .600" 110 + 0 cam. (He's cheap and this is a bunch of cheap or free parts he acquired) I'm trying to get him to use around a 70-72mm turbo. (He seems to think he needs a 76-78mm turbo) It's going into an 82 Caddy 4 door with a 4L85E and highway gears. He's chasing a number, I'm trying to make it reliable and fun to drive. Rings aren't gapped, only 93 octane - so trying to stay around 8-10psi. No matter what, it will make way more than the factory 4.1L (125 HP)
I would go with the Torque Cam, Truck Intake, Smaller Turbo and to bump it over 700 h.p add a pound of boost that would be super fun in a S-10 BUT, I would just start out with a 6.0 and have some more fun. 😁
I also understand where your coming from, if a 4.8 is what ya have and all ya got then go with it. 🤙🏼
Basically why I was trying to steer yesterday's live C30 van owner away from a 224 cam when he wants mileage
I'm loving the 4.8 stuff lately, I've been spending a lot of time in my twin turbo 4.8 awd truck the last 4 months or so. To be honest they work amazing on small turbo(s) on the stock cam. The power and stretch's out for eveerrrrrr. I can get 10psi boost at 2500rpm in the higher gears and still make solid power up to 6500rpm. Cruising highway at 75mph at 1900rpm it's able to make about 6-7psi and almost never downshifts. These engines are amazing for boost without even needing to be opened. Mine is 100% stock even on stock ring gap, stock head gaskets, stock head bolts. It's never been opened past valve covers and oil pan (had to fix oil leaks). Tuned on 87 octane because I'm a cheap ass it still accepts 13 degrees of timing at peak torque in phoenix az 110 degree heat. The thing is unstoppable. Wastegates are set at 10psi but it spikes 13-14 when it shifts 1st/2nd. Towing is amazing with it too. Anyhow, thanks again for the knowledge you always pass down to us through your videos!!
What turbos are you using?
I took Richard's advice on a smaller cam and it works great.
I used an LQ9 short block 241 heads(got a good deal and better than the 317) trail blazer intake 92mm tb with a 218/224 .604/.604 112 camshaft
How does your idle sound? I’m still trying to pick a cam
Love it. I learn stuff from every video, thank you! turbo magnum! turbo magnum! turbo magnum!
Great video as always 😎
I think if you are planning on a turbo engine then a person should concentrate on on low speed torque because that's what drives the turbo. Bigger torque makes the turbo more responsive and let the turbo make the hp. That's just my opinion. Great presentation. Thank you for your time and effort it's fun to learn
When I built my trans am engine, I asked Butler Perf for a solid roller 224/224 cam. they said that such a cam would be way too small for a 455 Pontiac. I told them I am turbocharging the engine. "oh, never mind" they said, and they asked me for my credit card number.
I WENT WITH A LM7 5.3 WITH 243 HEADS AN A SUMMIT STAGE 2 TURBO CAM A DORMAN KNOCKOFF MANIFOLD .
WITH A GT45 TURBO . IM HOPING TO MAX OUT THE GT45 FOR A FUN STREET/TRACK CAR
Boost response can be a double edge sword. My cruze is much easier to drive with a bigger turbo and bigger cams. The factory setup is into boost just off idle and made it very easy to spin tires. With it being a little laggy it doesn't spin as easy but still sometimes will break traction around 3500 when the boost is coming in very hard.
Can't that be a tuning change to either de-sensitize the pedal or ramp in fuel slower? I'm a diesel guy using diesel tuning standards, but I'd think it would correlate.
@Jim_Lawrence yeah you can make the pedal less sensitive than GM had it. That is actually fairly easy. The tuning scheme on them you would reduce the commanded power in the driver demand tables at lower pedal positions to lower the boost it is trying to make..Gas and diesel tune very differently though. Gas you reduce airflow(boost) and ignition timing to lessen the power. The way mine is setup I make close to double the factory horsepower with better fuel economy while cruising.
Sounds like a noob needs practice.
With electronic throttles, yes.
@jeremymardlin5381 depends on your setup what you adjust. Pedal sensitivity or mapping was what I was really thinking.
Diesel tuning is generally pedal sensitivity, and fuel and timing to control boost, as they don't run electronic waste gates. On vgt setups you can mess with that, although generally not so it doesn't end up a hot smoky mess.
the low end torque at low engine speeds will fold rods, if you're going for power..spin it fast and have better mechanical torque management.
1:34 on that first dyno graph was that dip in the torque curve in the low rpms legit you think or just a function of the load in on the dyno making artificially high to start?
Great video
You missed the fact that if you raise the static compression ratio, on the big cam combination, so that the dynamic compression ratio between the cams was the same the big cam would have made the power down low also. The real question is what is the efficiency of the turbo in the rpm range for which the engine is designed. I size my turbos so that the high efficiency island is near the torque peak.
I didn't miss anything, the results were as described
Lol
Thanks Richard
Howard’s specd me out a turbo 351 Cleveland cam and it was smaller than I thought.
Howard did you a favor ,875 FT cam? Do not put a chevy cam in your ford, you give up torque even if you can get the same HP goes double for .904 MoPAR
Thanks mate.
That's good s*** brother like finding out content from you thanks😊
I'd love to have the more responsive setup I'm my 65 skylark
Top left Richard! Heaps of room there
Our 2.7 L Ecoboost twin turbo if you take the 335 whp and convert it to Fwhp it’s making 411 fwhp, at 5750, the 380 wtq I don’t know how to convert it to fwtq but 380 is still tough. The thing that helps longevity is that the power is from 2000-5700 and in the Edge ST with the 2.7 twin turbo and 7 speed with the AWD starts with an H. transverse front transmission/ transverse case to feed the rear. The car feels planted and goes. I was surprised and we take car of stuff, at 62 we have bought our last car. I have offered to allow Ford to test any OTA tune updates that they want to try. We run 93 octane Phillips 66. And I see updates on my app. Good power that shows what a well built engine and boost is capable of. 2 hp per cube to the ground.
DID YOU RUN IT ON THE CHASSIS DYNO?
@@richardholdener1727 Ford ST did and the claim is that on 91 octane it was guaranteed to produce these numbers. At 93 octane they will sense this and update the settings. I am receiving regular tuning updates OTA. Pretty cool stuff. I am just glad that they are working with the ICE to keep it in the game.
@@richardholdener1727 The thing that is apparent is that from driving cars of similar weight and power from drag strip tests, it would appear to be correct. It is well very well balanced car. My wife loves it and as a passenger it is a charismatic vehicle. It has a great sense of spatial presence.
Nice to see you do this video after me messaging you last week. You told me this sort of set up also for my street Mercury zephyr turbo 5.3 ls. When you say long runner would a car intake work also as I need the hood clearance and truck manifold won't fit?
ls1 is the worst, ls6 is better
If you a have a Zephyr the LS with a Truck intake should fit we put a 572 in one. But if you need clearance look j to the Fast LSXR intake if you can afford it best intake for 6500 RPM or below
@@user-rk7cw2bf9u I had seen places say about needing a car intake if using the original cross member for clearance. Not sure myself
@@richardholdener1727 what about the ls2 intake?
What about the btr stg 2 turbo cam in a 348ci with a truck intake and a 7875?
Richard, first I would like to say I really enjoy viewing your videos. With the help of my father & your channel, it has gotten me through my first ls engine rebuild. After 2.5 yrs of restoring an 86 caprice landau, I am hoping to start the engine for the very first time come March 24’.
As the plan will be to break in the motor with a street tune & come back several 100 miles & oil changes later to get on the dyno.
What do you think about this set up & how much power gain could I potentially get out of the motor being a street performer. First as NA. Then under boost:
LQ4 6.0, 370ci, 4.030 bore. Pro LS Forged Pistons, 12cc dished, Eagle H-Beam Connecting Rod, all new bearing, ARP studs, stock crank, 24x welded reluctor wheel, BTR stage 2 turbo cam, intake duration @ .050” 226, exhaust 231, intake lift .610, exhaust lift .609, LSA 113, ported 243 heads (64cc) with dual .660 TS springs, trunnion upgrade, LS7 lifters, LS9 gaskets, 9.5 CR, 1 7/8” headers, edelbrock pro flo xt intake. What max NA hp would you say to the flywheel.
Now under boost, could a FORCED INDUCTIONS V5 BILLET S476 SC 83 TW 1.00 A/R T4 Housing get me to 800whp? Air to air intercooler. Running e85.
Is this too big of a turbo for a street application? Big rim family with 26” tires with a 2800-3200 stall & a 3.73 gear. I am also hoping with the right tune & timing, I dont get much boost lag.
Thoughts..thank you
low to mid 500s na (depending on the quality of the porting) and that turbo can get you to 800 whp.
@@richardholdener1727 thank you Richard..
So Rich, would the other bigger cam be better paired with a supercharger instead? Since you get instant torque and the big cam makes up on top end?
I keep flipping back and forth with what i want but I got the BTR red hot cam with a 402ci stroker on a 6.0l. Everytime I watch your videos I think i made a wrong choice with my combinations 😅
you are good
Here’s the combo I have come up with for my LR4 after watching hours and hours of your videos. Pro LS 2cc dome pistons, Pro LS stock length rods, crank work, Wilkes Performance CNC heads with 2.02/1.57 valves, BTR Torque cam, ported TBSS intake, 92mm throttle body, haven’t decided on a turbo yet. Thinking a GBC-900 , Holley rails and so forth. Shoting for 600 to the wheels for a fun street toy. Whats your opinion on the setup?
should work well-not sure why you had the heads ported for use with a turbo and the mild cam, but it all helps
Heads are still stock right now. It’s all in the planning stage at the moment
Just crank up the boost…. 🙄
Makes sense
Boom!
I've known for a while, I want stock parts plus a very modest turbo... Plus my multiple fuel system to cruise on 87 octane. Treat the high octane and turbo kind of like nitrous, but less stupid. I mean, I still want to do some goofy long intake and exhaust runners, partially for pragmatic reasons, partially because 'god damn it, I just want to'.
A lot of money spent for dual fuel setup for very little savings at the pump.just run a flex fuel sensor so you can run e85 or regular it will blend the maps.its pointless to spend all that money and run 87.i don't even run regular on a near stock 10to1 5.3 unless it's on a long road trip.when I get to my destination I spice it up with e85 or mix in some premium at the pump.if your going boost 87 is just asking for trouble
@@floridaman1776 Um... no. I don't want to blend shit. I want ALL the performance potential when I flip a switch. If I ever actually go to a drag strip, I need maybe a quarter mile, and I will not want to wait for 87 octane to filter out of the fuel system so I can get what I'd expect. An extra stock ECU, set of injectors crudely added to stock intake, splice all/most sensors to both ECUs, toggle switch for ECU and injector power. You think flex fuel will reliably detect octane of obscure fuels? I doubt it. Also, I can have a turbo and only sometimes run boost. I've done plenty of figuring things out, I don't need some nay sayer telling me it's impractical compared to WTFever else.
Hey ,what a small cam under 600 lift
Question for you, Richard: If you had a 4.8 and a 5.3, both built for street driving with appropriately-sized cams and turbos, would the 4.8 use noticeably less fuel in normal driving than the 5.3? I'm thinking of motor-swapping a Buick Roadmaster wagon and hoping to make much more full-throttle power with equal or better mileage cruising at 65 on the freeway. Either 'little' LS will handily make more than the old LT-1's 260 hp and 335 lb-ft, but would one be much more efficient?
I doubt actual steady state cruise mileage would be much different between the two
Thanks for the answer! I sort of figured as much, but you DEFINITELY know more than I do. Think an aluminum 5.3 would hold 8 pounds of boost without major work, @@richardholdener1727 ?
👍💪
In a supercharged application this low rpm power loss with a big cam is negligible right?
STILL HAPPENS, BUT THE MIGHT HAVE ENOUGH FOR YOU WITH EITHER CAM
What size turbo for best boost response would you recommend on a 5.3 with Truck Norris Cam 243 heads and stock truck intake running 93 octane
gt45
Would a 7875 be very laggy on this combo below 3000 rpm?
Won't more boost solve all problems? 😁
It'll solve your previous problems, but might add some new ones...
What about BulletRacing cams?
I have run Bullet cams too
Put a m90 on a 4.3
Can we stop using 75-80mm s400x turbos when only running 13psi max? Nobody buys a s475 80, to only run 13psi.. max 20psi the new standard
free country-you run what you want (nobody is an inaccurate statement)
@richardholdener1727 i get that. But using a s475 on the "optimized "setup is not a good choice either for 700hp. Should be a 7875 for best results. Anything in a s400 platform should be running atleast 15psi minimum or its a complete waste of space
You should rewatch the video and hopefully come away with the following two points. 1. It WAS about the consequences of running the wrong combination. 2. It was definitely NOT about how much boost you think everyone else should run.
I need everyone’s help I have a 05 Silverado with a 5.3 bored to 3.903 stock rods 10.9 compression a chopacabra cam I don’t drive crazy I’m not looking to make a stupid high dyno number it’s a daily driver that will never see over 5,500 rpm’s I want a responsive single turbo if it runs out of steam at 6k it doesn’t matter every body keeps suggesting a 78/75 and I think that’s way more turbo than I need suggestions would be greatly appreciated
You basically have an iron 5.7L - I don't think a 78/75 on a 5.7L is too big. What A/R 1.10? Or 1.25? I think 1.10 would be fine, some places offer even smaller like a .96 - just food for thought.
@@bluecollarhotrods9781 it’s a .91 a/r I just looking to build boost at lower rpm’s instead of so much on the big end I’m knew to boost and just want to do it right the 1st time thanks for your reply as well
@@shanecox3413 .91 should spool pretty good on that set up. My good friend had a VS 78/75 on his small cam 4.8L, it actually lit off pretty good. I'm not sure what his A/R was, I'd have to ask him and see if he remembers.
@@bluecollarhotrods9781 it’s actually a .96 and that’s what it is a vs racing 78/75 I’m looking at maybe there’s a reason everyone keeps saying the same thing plus I’m going to run electronic boost control and my understanding is you can change a lot on your spool etc electronically i appreciate your input have a wonderful weekend
@@shanecox3413 What transmission, gear, converter?
I have that cam in an LQ4 with 862 heads and 4.10 gears. (2001 Silverado RCSB) I have a 4L80E with a converter that only flashes to 2200. It moves decent in daily driving. But it's VERY lazy in the first 330' at the track. Boost would fix that. They say that cam is stock converter friendly, but I think it needs a 3000-3200 converter minimum in a truck to not feel so soft n/a.
Needs more cowbell,nope my bad,more boost is better
1
Lol, not even a contest. Who'd be running a 305 in strip form. Unless you can't plant the rubber
Now how about the 5.3? Lol
SEE TODAY
@@richardholdener1727 you the man Richard. I wanna see this cause I'm testing a blower cam on a turbo setup now. Turbo is alittle in the juicy side too being a 88mm t6. Big motor not gonna be possible til next year