Our group always used the optional modifiers and from what I can remember it was real easy to keep track of and didn't really slow anything down. It made combat way more dynamic by giving smaller weapons a bit of an advantage over the larger ones, using a dagger against a spellcaster was sometimes better then a 2-handed sword because you knew were going to get hit with a hold person before you got a chance to even swing it. Spellcasters too would sometimes opt to use a weaker spell over a more powerful one because they can get it off quick. I would at least try it for a session or two and see what you think.
I love individual initiative, and used it in Adventures Dark and Deep. It doesn't slow anything down once you realize that you still need to ask everyone what they're going to do each round. All individual initiative does is help figure out what that order you ask them.
I love your channel, and thought I run my own campaign world--I have so many fond memories of Greyhawk. It's still an inspiration. But I'm going to respectfully disagree with you. I used individual initiative for decades, and in my experience it slowed the game down to crawl. Using some inspiration from PDM on Dungeon Craft, our group has gone to a system where we have eliminated initiative in favor of a system based on weapon reach. If you have 15 goblins and 8 are archers, the DM rolls 8 D:20s for those archers in the beginning of combat, and again at the end of the round since bows have a 2/1 ROF. After missiles, magic items that have a single command word go off, and or magic users declare what spell they are casting. Melee begins with pole arms, then lager melee weapons like two handed swords go, and on down to fists, claws, bites, etc. Spell casters who haven't been hit get their spells off and then there's end of round missiles. This way attacks are going off all at once--one round bleeds into the next, combat is fluid, fast and bloody. Secondary weapons actually become important in tight quarters---this has been a real game changer in our games. I'll never roll another initiative die again. If anyone is interested, it's a simple combat order. I'd be happy to post it.
Man, what a cluster initiative used to be. I prefer OSE Advanced D20 individual initiative. Joe, where have you been? Maybe 3 times over the last week or two, I thought to myself that I hadn't seen a new video from you for a while in my feed. All anyone would say Friday night is that you're consumed with training for the fight. It's haunting you! Rob the Mountain showed a video of a duel between himself and a young sword master. Rob the Mountain humiliated that kid. Rob the Mountain says he might be losing a little speed on his footwork but works tirelessly to keep his wrists limber and to maintain his hand speed... We were all like, " Damn! Joe Lawyer is doomed." Then, Eric, always a stalwart, said you're training hard and will be ready. I was looking at a book at Shire Con last summer, and Rob pushed past me and blocked off the whole table, obliviously. I'm from the Boston area. Even though I'm a cripple now, my first instinct was to say something unkind, but his shoulders are about 4 and a half feet wide. So, I just swallowed my indignation and stood there smirking in silence. It takes a brave man than I to stand up against Rob the Mountain. Dude, you wanted to get to 2,000 subs before Shire Con, but you're making one video every 2 months. If I'm watching them, then other people are, too. You've got to put out a video a week if you want to get to 2,000 subs. If you're going to get there, then you should try to do it before the duel. That's all I'm saying
I like declaring actions. It’s exactly the same as doing the thing. Except you don’t know if you won initiative and you wouldn’t get the situation like you described. Not sure what happened where someone felt they couldn’t be effective because everyone else went. Also multiple attacks used to give you first strike. I think it makes sense for fighters to be better at finding openings in combat. I like splitting initiative based on declared actions. If you’re unopposed, you don’t have to role. Ranged>spells>movement>melee. I used individual initiative in the different places. Usually movement will see people meet or not. 1e rules only allowed attacks on a charge otherwise melee happens the turn after you moved. In the melee turn, if the fighter has multiple attacks fighting someone with 1 you don’t need to roll. The fighter goes first and last. It also makes monsters with multiple attacks rather dangerous. I also like giving fighters the cleave ability. They can kill as many moons as their level. Roll 1d4 for a fourth level fighter to find how many they killed. It speeds up multiple attacks and feels epic and allows narration of multiple kills.
Yeah now I gotcha, yeah the personal factors of players is a set of circumstances not really addressed in the rules. I will usually kinda "narrate" some of the fights when this is the case. "OK Ted hacked ar the dude on the left and he seems unsteady, Wilma took to the big oaffish guy with her fork and he's got his eye kinda hanging out some, it looks like you could..." stuff like that. I cut the optional mods down to weapon size (sm.=2, med.=4, etc), spells 1+spell level, and the base mods you spoke of. But totally worth fitting with your specific players. Always match mission to assets.
@@Joethelawyer RAW, no mods. Just roll 1d10. In case of a tie then the higher DEX goes first. If DEX is tied then both actions happen simultaneously. But you could easily house rule in that DEX could be an added modifier. I like the idea of new initiative each round, keeps people on their toes, but it does need to be quick to organise.
@Pantherrrr yeah it’s difficult to run it fast. Some people flat out hate it. It seems that simple d6 side based with no kids is one extreme. Roll every round with mods is another. Maybe individually once per combat with mods like 5e does it really is the best way because it’s a compromise
Good stuff, Joe! I used a 12-sided die for larger parties then I started playing DCC and they use a D20 (or D16 if you are using a two-handed weapon, etc.) That works pretty well. Using a D6 forces me to then go to dex modifiers, etc. to resolve tie-breakers within the party, so using a D20 virtually eliminates that.
Back in the days when we started playing 2e as a kids, we have used optional modifiers; weapon speed, spell speed and so on. Sometimes i miss those initiative rules, but modern DnD combat is already slow enough. I hate group initiative through, there is that moment when players are higher level, whichever side wins the group initiative, that side is more likely to win. I am experimenting with initiative rules for my homebrewed d100 Warhammer system. Since there is no rolling, hope it will not slow down the game .
When I played 2e as a kid, we just used casting time as a modifier. With the addendum (I don't know where it came from) that getting hit after you start casting a spell but before you finish makes you lose the spell.
@Joethelawyer Really enjoy your takes on various thing related to gaming in general and 2e in particular. If anything, I’d like to see even more content from you, talking about your own 2e game, and your observations about different aspects of the game. I do have a question about your initiative system. For spells, do PCs just cast the spell on their turn with no chance to interrupt the spell? Or if a spellcaster takes damage during a round, are they unable to cast spells?
Thanks for the compliment and the comment! No chance to interrupt. I don't like that mechanic. Its hard enough being a caster in old school games. I'm not gonna screw them over with concentration. They cast on their turn
I've done the opposite! Gone from individual to group initiative in the last 12 months. Group is just faster. Waaay faster. Esp online like using Roll20. Whatever benefits individ init have, they dont outweigh how slow it is, for me.
Our group always used the optional modifiers and from what I can remember it was real easy to keep track of and didn't really slow anything down. It made combat way more dynamic by giving smaller weapons a bit of an advantage over the larger ones, using a dagger against a spellcaster was sometimes better then a 2-handed sword because you knew were going to get hit with a hold person before you got a chance to even swing it. Spellcasters too would sometimes opt to use a weaker spell over a more powerful one because they can get it off quick. I would at least try it for a session or two and see what you think.
I agree. Adding a dynamic component without slowing the game down is always a good thing.
1e just used weapon speed for said case. It helps make the thief the mage counter because they’re interrupting their cast.
I love individual initiative, and used it in Adventures Dark and Deep. It doesn't slow anything down once you realize that you still need to ask everyone what they're going to do each round. All individual initiative does is help figure out what that order you ask them.
I love your channel, and thought I run my own campaign world--I have so many fond memories of Greyhawk. It's still an inspiration. But I'm going to respectfully disagree with you. I used individual initiative for decades, and in my experience it slowed the game down to crawl.
Using some inspiration from PDM on Dungeon Craft, our group has gone to a system where we have eliminated initiative in favor of a system based on weapon reach. If you have 15 goblins and 8 are archers, the DM rolls 8 D:20s for those archers in the beginning of combat, and again at the end of the round since bows have a 2/1 ROF. After missiles, magic items that have a single command word go off, and or magic users declare what spell they are casting. Melee begins with pole arms, then lager melee weapons like two handed swords go, and on down to fists, claws, bites, etc. Spell casters who haven't been hit get their spells off and then there's end of round missiles. This way attacks are going off all at once--one round bleeds into the next, combat is fluid, fast and bloody. Secondary weapons actually become important in tight quarters---this has been a real game changer in our games. I'll never roll another initiative die again.
If anyone is interested, it's a simple combat order. I'd be happy to post it.
@@andrewlustfield6079 As a rule, for large groups of monsters I do them together. It's characters that go separately. Should have made that clearer.
Man, what a cluster initiative used to be. I prefer OSE Advanced D20 individual initiative.
Joe, where have you been? Maybe 3 times over the last week or two, I thought to myself that I hadn't seen a new video from you for a while in my feed. All anyone would say Friday night is that you're consumed with training for the fight. It's haunting you!
Rob the Mountain showed a video of a duel between himself and a young sword master. Rob the Mountain humiliated that kid. Rob the Mountain says he might be losing a little speed on his footwork but works tirelessly to keep his wrists limber and to maintain his hand speed...
We were all like, " Damn! Joe Lawyer is doomed." Then, Eric, always a stalwart, said you're training hard and will be ready.
I was looking at a book at Shire Con last summer, and Rob pushed past me and blocked off the whole table, obliviously. I'm from the Boston area. Even though I'm a cripple now, my first instinct was to say something unkind, but his shoulders are about 4 and a half feet wide. So, I just swallowed my indignation and stood there smirking in silence.
It takes a brave man than I to stand up against Rob the Mountain.
Dude, you wanted to get to 2,000 subs before Shire Con, but you're making one video every 2 months. If I'm watching them, then other people are, too. You've got to put out a video a week if you want to get to 2,000 subs. If you're going to get there, then you should try to do it before the duel. That's all I'm saying
new video just dropped!
I like declaring actions. It’s exactly the same as doing the thing. Except you don’t know if you won initiative and you wouldn’t get the situation like you described.
Not sure what happened where someone felt they couldn’t be effective because everyone else went.
Also multiple attacks used to give you first strike. I think it makes sense for fighters to be better at finding openings in combat.
I like splitting initiative based on declared actions. If you’re unopposed, you don’t have to role. Ranged>spells>movement>melee. I used individual initiative in the different places. Usually movement will see people meet or not. 1e rules only allowed attacks on a charge otherwise melee happens the turn after you moved.
In the melee turn, if the fighter has multiple attacks fighting someone with 1 you don’t need to roll. The fighter goes first and last. It also makes monsters with multiple attacks rather dangerous.
I also like giving fighters the cleave ability. They can kill as many moons as their level. Roll 1d4 for a fourth level fighter to find how many they killed. It speeds up multiple attacks and feels epic and allows narration of multiple kills.
too many details for this old brain
Yeah now I gotcha, yeah the personal factors of players is a set of circumstances not really addressed in the rules. I will usually kinda "narrate" some of the fights when this is the case. "OK Ted hacked ar the dude on the left and he seems unsteady, Wilma took to the big oaffish guy with her fork and he's got his eye kinda hanging out some, it looks like you could..." stuff like that.
I cut the optional mods down to weapon size (sm.=2, med.=4, etc), spells 1+spell level, and the base mods you spoke of. But totally worth fitting with your specific players. Always match mission to assets.
lol good way to say it. :)
You might be interested in the Castles & Crusades method. Each player rolls 1d10 each round. No modifiers so it's pretty simple and quick.
no mods?
@@Joethelawyer RAW, no mods. Just roll 1d10. In case of a tie then the higher DEX goes first. If DEX is tied then both actions happen simultaneously.
But you could easily house rule in that DEX could be an added modifier.
I like the idea of new initiative each round, keeps people on their toes, but it does need to be quick to organise.
@Pantherrrr yeah it’s difficult to run it fast. Some people flat out hate it. It seems that simple d6 side based with no kids is one extreme. Roll every round with mods is another. Maybe individually once per combat with mods like 5e does it really is the best way because it’s a compromise
Good stuff, Joe! I used a 12-sided die for larger parties then I started playing DCC and they use a D20 (or D16 if you are using a two-handed weapon, etc.) That works pretty well. Using a D6 forces me to then go to dex modifiers, etc. to resolve tie-breakers within the party, so using a D20 virtually eliminates that.
For the new game I'm writing i'm using d20, roll high, individual initiative, add dex mod for a bonus.
Back in the days when we started playing 2e as a kids, we have used optional modifiers; weapon speed, spell speed and so on. Sometimes i miss those initiative rules, but modern DnD combat is already slow enough. I hate group initiative through, there is that moment when players are higher level, whichever side wins the group initiative, that side is more likely to win.
I am experimenting with initiative rules for my homebrewed d100 Warhammer system. Since there is no rolling, hope it will not slow down the game .
When I played 2e as a kid, we just used casting time as a modifier. With the addendum (I don't know where it came from) that getting hit after you start casting a spell but before you finish makes you lose the spell.
@Joethelawyer Really enjoy your takes on various thing related to gaming in general and 2e in particular. If anything, I’d like to see even more content from you, talking about your own 2e game, and your observations about different aspects of the game. I do have a question about your initiative system. For spells, do PCs just cast the spell on their turn with no chance to interrupt the spell? Or if a spellcaster takes damage during a round, are they unable to cast spells?
Thanks for the compliment and the comment! No chance to interrupt. I don't like that mechanic. Its hard enough being a caster in old school games. I'm not gonna screw them over with concentration. They cast on their turn
I've done the opposite! Gone from individual to group initiative in the last 12 months. Group is just faster. Waaay faster. Esp online like using Roll20. Whatever benefits individ init have, they dont outweigh how slow it is, for me.
i stil bounce back and forth in my head. I think it ultimately depends on the group
Yes I think you're right@@Joethelawyer
Hey Joe.,
Was wondering if You could Point Me in the right Direction for ShireCon Information..
Where did you go, Joe?
i'm here! summer hiatus. :)