The Biblical basis for unpaid ministry
Vložit
- čas přidán 24. 09. 2016
- In this video, I share some texts which help support the fact that christians are never to receive payment for the use of their spiritual gifts.
1 Tim 5:17-18 and paying Bible teachers/elders
• Should elders/pastors/...
1 Corinthians 9 and salaried pastors
• 1 Corinthians 9 and sa...
In addition, here are some other videos I’ve done in connection to church finances and ministering for free:
Preaching for free
• Preaching for free
Church finances - What should churches spend their resources on?
• Church finances - What...
Church finances - Are church buildings a waste of God's money?
• Church finances - Are ...
Church finances - Mega churches, house churches and raising money for God's kingdom
• Church finances - Mega...
Ive wanted to say this since the 80’s when I was a volunteer missionary and worship leader,but God told me it wasn't my responsibility To say this.When I was saved I was so excited to serve God has a full time missionary,that it was such an honor.I would have never accepted money for doing this.
I'm sorry for the delay in responding as I just say this comment. Thanks for commenting. That is good to hear that you were willing to serve God in such a capacity without desiring to be paid for it. From my understanding of the Bible, that is the kind of attitude that will tend to lead to a greater reward in heaven.
Amen bro. Thank God for you.
This is why apostles,evangelists, elders etc is termed a "CALL."This means one is called by God to give up all worldly ambitions of wealth and self-interests. Going into ministry means never knowing where you next meal is coming from. You cannot neglect your ministry to attend to all your needs and you still cannot use your ministry to agrandize yourself. So a minister of the gospel lives on, in addition to his efforts, on the free gifts and charity of the church members(having food and clothes therewith be contented). He MUST never use the position to make himself better off than he was before he entered ministry. If you become rich after you entered ministry you can be sure you did not live according to christ, one way or the other. Not saying poverty is a goal but to the man who has the hope of heaven and service to Christ after salvation as his highest idea, worldly advancement is not his first priority. He would gladly give all he has to see one soul come to Christ in love. The spirit of the gospel goes 180degrees from that of the world.
Hi Jason,
Thanks for watching and commenting. I appreciate it. You make some valid points. However, although Paul had a right to have his basic needs met in his ministry,
the ideal that Paul strove for in his ministry was to sustain himself through laboring with his own hands which is made evident in his ministry to the church of Corinth, Ephesus, and Thessalonica etc. So in one sense, Paul did often know where his next meal was coming from. It is true he did accept gifts at times but that was because he was poor and unable to support himself (possibly in connection to his imprisonment(s)).
You alluded to 1 Tim 6:8 "And having food and raiment let us be therewith content" which is indeed a great text that all ministers ought to be reminded of. As I'm sure you're aware, that passage is found within the context of Paul condemning false teachers. And one of the traits of those teachers is that they seemed to consider the ministry a means of financial gain:
1 Tim 6:5 "and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain."
How many pastors/CZcams teachers are guilty of looking at the ministry as being a means of financial gain?
What is Paul's charge to the Evangelist/Teacher Timothy and all teachers in regard to such things as looking to make money from teaching?
1 Tim 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things…
Thanks again for commenting!
Brother this is so refreshing!
Hi Antoniio, Thanks for watching and thank you for your encouragement.
Good stuff! Thanks for sharing.
Are you currently involved in an organic church?
Thanks for watching! I'm not involved in an organic church at all. I used to attend one years ago though. I assume you are part of one? Could I send you a private message sometime? I looked at your channel but didn't see how I can do that.
Are you on FB? or Twitter? You can follow me there and send me a PM that way.
kgilesify I'm on Facebook. I might send you a message on there sometime. Thanks!
I look forward to it!
kgilesify I assume you are part of an organic church now?
I am so tired of churches twisting every sermon into a message that is designed to motivate people to tithe. The New Testament never tells people to tithe. It actually says: "2 Corinthians 9: 7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver." The term "of necessity" in that verse would refer to giving money to the church leadership out of requirement. That is what most churches try to get you to believe.
It is not even the pastors job to do all the work.The pastor should just be helping the sheep and training them to be better Christians so they can go out and do the work of witnessing. Most church leadership does not like it when the sheep start to help one another. They try to keep a vertical flow upward of finances and resources so it all goes up to the top before it would or could ever go back to the sheep and most of the time it never does go back to the sheep. Church leadership does not like it when there is a flow of resources from sheep to sheep. This just tells me that most churches are just businesses. i emailed a prominent church leader in my local area and asked him why he was not following what the Bible teaches, and neither he nor his assistant ever got back to me. I ended up leaving that church. I never turn my back on God or Christianity or the Bible, But i do leave a church if the leadership is not following what the bible says.
Hi Jason,
Thanks for commenting and sharing some of your thoughts and experiences. Yes, sadly, it seems many churches today have become like businesses. There is no basis in the NT for having a special, paid group of people who handle much of the "ministry". All money collected in God's name must be used for God's purposes, and paid clergy is not one of those purposes. Rather, God's purposes are for the desperate needs for the saints to be met such as the widows (who have no family who are willing to help them), orphans, the sick etc.
This video goes into more detail:
czcams.com/video/ormN71UZXHE/video.html
"It is not even the pastors job to do all the work"
Yes, this is true. Certainly, pastors are to teach and guide the flock, but they are also to seek to encourage the rest of the body to use their gifts and abilities during the meeting within the parameters of the Word of God as they are led by the Holy Spirt for the education of all. And of course, if a christian is gifted in the area of evangelism, they ought to be encouraged to use that gift as well and to seek to go out and witness to the lost.
It is very simple my brother. The concept of salary that we have today is not the same one that shows in the bible back then. How do I know? Because the bible doesn't even show one example of any of the disciples or even Jesus himself charging money to people for their ministries on a regular basis.
It is all part of a religious system that started at least 250 years after the birth of the church with a new idea of a church-building or "temples".
That's why I don't believe in church-buildings or temples. I believe in families and houses. The church was born within the context of a house and I am 99.9% sure that was God purpose to stay in there. Good job and God bless my friend!
HI Maurano,
Thanks for commenting and sharing some thoughts. I appreciate the encouragement. I would agree that there is no example in the NT of any minister charging money to people for their ministries. Yes, I believe in families and houses as well. I believe that all the NT responsibilities a church has can be fulfilled in a person's home. Church buildings are generally a huge waste of money.
Have you ever read Pagan Christianity?
JaguerRhye don't think so but I had read other books and searched for more information on online regards this issue. God bless. But you know... I feel that we need to get together on this matter especially because the church needs to hear this today more than ever. But if don't join our strengths we are not going to be able to bring the massage out or at least our impact is not going to be strong enough. So if you are willing to know each other in a more direct way let me know my friend. God bless!
Yes, I do believe the church needs to hear these kinds of things and that is why I've sought to utilize CZcams to attempt to reach the people who might still be attending traditional churches. I just don't think many typical church attenders are going to be searching youtube for videos like mine. However, I could see if the videos were posted on Facebook, maybe some of them would watch them. Also, since some of my vids are quite long, I think I might make much shorter clips of them which I think will increase the chances of people watching them and I could potentially more effectively get a point across and stimulate thought in people's minds etc.
have you ever wondered that the apostle paul was writing letters to people in a completely different culture than ours, where mobs could actually plot to kill someone just because they didnt like something he said, no trial, just kill him. or a whole society where people would worship all kinds of gods, birds, reptiles, the sun, a rain god, you name it, i'll bet they had it. and paul was trying to get through to these types of people that what they were doing was wrong, and they should stop, and worship this one true, almighty God that created everything that is, from nothing, and everything continues to live, move, breath, and exist by His power. paul used some words , during that time, so long ago, and i have thought that the vocabulary used today, in our society is probably nothing like the vocabulary paul used. his vocabulary probably used word phrases we wouldnt understand, but were clear to people in his day, and visa, versa. but for the life of me i cant figure out why paul would describe himself in, romans 7, as a slave to the power of sin, so much so, that he does the sin he doesnt want to do, and that life is DOMINATED by sin, and then, in romans 6, he says, "dont give in to your sin urges", or dont sin. arent these 2 passages similar to throwing a person in water and telling them not to get wet?
Hi Gerry,
Yes, Paul was indeed writing to people who were in a different culture than ours although they had some of the same problems we have in our culture. And there are various phrases and literary devices Paul used that people today might not readily understand. Consider that Peter himself found some of Paul’s writings hard to understand (2 Peter 3:16a “As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood..” and he knew Paul and lived within the same culture as Paul And so if an inspired writer as Peter found Paul hard to understand, it is to be expected that people living nearly 2000 years later in a different culture would find Paul hard to understand as well. It is just one of the responsibilities of teachers to determine the original intent of the inspired writers in order to effectively communicate their truths to people in our culture.
In regard to your question, I assume you are referring to such texts as Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
Among other things, Paul is acknowledging the remaining sin that is in his human nature and that he is unable to be totally free from all sin in his life. His corrupt human nature is in bondage to sin in a general sense that it will never be free from it in this life. Paul's corrupt human nature caused a conflict within Paul as he makes evident in such texts as:
Rom 7:23-25 “For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
In other words, while Paul’s born again, renewed inner man took pleasure in the law of God, there was that sinful part of him (the part in bondage to sin) that opposes the desires of his inner man. This frustration grieved Paul and caused him to cry out to be free from the sinful nature which he refers to as the body of this death.
In Romans 6, Paul does teach us not give in to the lusts of the flesh. I don’t think it's similar to the act of throwing a person in water and telling them not to get wet etc. Paul is simply affirming the fact that believers have 2 natures in their being, a renewed one that seeks to do the will of God, and a fallen nature that is in bondage to sin and craves corrupt things. Paul is just instructing christians to fight against fulfilling the desires of the corrupt part of us.
@@JaguerRhye this term, "fight against fulfilling the desires of the corrupt part of us". exactly how are humans to do this? if its the work of the holy spirit, then its not humans who do it. some people think we are to help the holy spirit at this job, but i see nothing in scripture that gives any indication of that. both you and i know will power is weak at best, and i see nothing in scripture to indicate that God gives strength to our will power. the only thing i see is that God will transform us by changing the way we think, and this is a work God does by Himself, he doesnt suggest he needs it. i have heard many people say "we must fight temptation and sin", and then they say how to do that is to read your bible all the time, go to church every time the doors are open, give generously to the church, be active in the church, and such like things. these things may be good, and they may help you in some way, but but i See nothing in scripture, and nothing in experience, to show they fight temptation, or sin, or increase will power. i'm not playing devils advocate, but when the bible says something like, "DONT GIVE IN TO SINFUL URGES", i am baffled because thats what saved people do, they sin, they give into urges. however i have considered the idea that paul might be talking about how one lives in front of others, and maybe not what goes on inside a christians mind, but i dont know, its just a thought ive considered, i could be absolutely wrong. the only thing i do know is i do have the ability to cry to God for mercy and forgive me, and i can find a good deal of scripture to support that. and just because a christian sins, does not mean that he thinks some sin is ok, he knows its wrong because God says its wrong.
Gerry Lee Good question. The relationship between human responsibility and divine providence can be difficult to grasp. It's similar to how a sinner is called to believe in Christ. He cannot do that without the work of God within him. So that if a sinner does believe, it is only because of God's power. Likewise, christians are responsible to resist sin, and if they do resist, it is only because of the Spirit’s work in them. Self control is one of the fruits of the Spirit so that a believer should have a degree of control as a result of the Spirit's work in them.
Of course, some sins can be more difficult to resist than others. For example, if a christian is single and doesn't have the gift of celibacy it can tend to be impossible for them to not regularly fall into sexual sin in some form, despite what many Bible teachers, pastors might claim. I believe this is why Paul encourages marriage for most christians assuming they cannot contain sexually: 1 Cor 7:2, 9.
However, one might wonder how a single without the gift is expected by God to not regularly sin sexually if they can’t seem to find anyone to marry no matter how much they try and pray for someone. I honestly don’t know. It’s almost as though God just leaves certain christians to suffer and struggle in certain abnormal conditions where it is impossible for them not to sin. This doesn’t seem to harmonize with what the NT teaches and someone may argue that God will provide a way of escape etc. I just haven’t seen that to apply to the area of sexuality and christian singleness no matter how much advice I have heard from well meaning teachers.
When it comes to resisting sin, there can be different ways in which a believer can fight the sin. Sometimes it can be by seeking to engage in activities that lessen stress and sufficiently stimulate the mind in order to preoccupy it and give the person greater power through the Holy Spirit in order to refrain from falling into sin. This is easier said than done at times. For example, I have found that certain people who can't connect well with other people can often end up with terrible mood problems which makes it easier for them to fall into sin.
"and then they say how to do that is to read your bible all the time, go to church every time the doors are open, give generously to the church, be active in the church, and such like things."
As much as I study the Bible, I have actually found reading the Bible as well as sitting in church to contribute to certain sins at times and I can be better off spending time doing something more lighthearted like playing video games or dancing. I have found seeking out fellowship with christians and trying to serve others can backfire on me and give me more stress which in turn can make me more prone to sin in various ways.
My youtube channel is a perfect example and that is one of the main reasons I haven’t made a new video since last year and possibly will never make one again as it was just contributing to too much to a feeling of disconnectedness, frustration, negativity etc. which I can do without.
Thanks for this great teaching but I have a question in regards to musicians. Should musicians in the church and am referring to the choir directors, instrumentalist and singers be paid for their service or should also give freely since it was given to them by their heavenly father freely. I have worked in a church as a music director and got paid for my service, but to me my responsibility makes it justified for my wages. I have more so serve my mother church where they did not see my service of importance but a requirement. The church demanded a lot from me including the choir, I never got paid for my service but was constantly disrespected since am quit younger than everyone in the choir. I have then seize to be the music director for the past eight months because now I feel if am not honored, respected and honored as you said in your previous video, then I demand a pay. I hold a job but I don’t have more social life because I have dedicated my time and energy studying music to help the church. Please I will be delighted if anyone here can help me resolve this issue. Thanks 👂🏼👂🏼👂🏼👂🏼
Hi Andre,
Thanks for watching and for commenting. I do realize the great amount of time, talent and effort that goes into music, but I don’t believe musicians should receive compensation for any of their work in the church. If a person has musical gifts, they ought to be seeking to use that gift to minister to the family of Christ as a sacrifice and a not in hopes of getting some kind of payment. In Rom 12:1, Paul talks about our need to offer our bodies as a living sacrifice and then eventually goes in 12:6 to list some of the various gifts by which a person might offer themselves as a sacrifice. i.e. “Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith…”
I just don’t see getting paid for any kind of ministry as something that is in harmony with the idea of a spiritual sacrifice. The offering of one's body as a living sacrifice seems to have more of the idea of be willing to sacrifice time and energy for the good of others.
“The church demanded a lot from me including the choir, I never got paid for my service but was constantly disrespected since am quit younger than everyone in the choir.”
I’m sorry for the disrespect you have experienced. I don’t believe the church should be making demands from you in regard to what you should contribute. You should be free to contribute what you feel led to contribute and not because what the church thinks you should contribute.
“I have then seize to be the music director for the past eight months because now I feel if am not honored, respected and honored as you said in your previous video, then I demand a pay.”
Can you clarify what you’re saying here? I don’t believe a believer should be demanding pay from a church for any work they do in the church, even if the church is disrespectful to them. If you feel you are being disrespected, it might help to kindly ask them to refrain from any future disrespect and tell them how you would be more comfortable serving.
JaguerRhye thank you so much. Well noted
You're welcome Andre. I'm sorry your social life doesn't seem to be too good. Hopefully, you will be able to find more people you can connect with at some point.
JaguerRhye sure thank you.
When I was you g I thought it was ok to be paid,but I couldn’t imagine myself in a church with jesus or the disciples and thinking I would be paid for anything. Worship doesn’t need an instrument,music,church or even a voice.Its your heart that is worshipping.
oh yeah, you got the gift of teaching Jag, but john piper, john macarther, r c sproul, and the like would call you a misguided soul. i get the impression from paid, fulltime pastors that the church needs them working fulltime preparing sermons for ppl because laymen ppl cant possibly understand the revealed word of God. therefore, since they do such a great service for God and mankind, they justify their vocation by quoting "the worker deserves his wage". i think pastors/teachers are necessary and ordained by God as a help to ppl, at times, to understand His Word more clearly, but to sit and listen to 2, 3, and 4 sermons/wk i think a person will become saturated with the biases, and sometimes just plain wrong interpretations of a fultime pastor. am i wrong, or do i reasonably conclude that the Holy Spirit helps me to understand knowledge of the will of God? (colossians 1, 9)
i also agree that a good understanding of greek, aramaic, and hebrew can be great help sometimes, but to think my bible studying is nothing more than a kindergarten understanding of Gods Word without a grasp of these languages seems ridiculous to me.
keep teaching the understanding God has given you Jaguer. you dont need a big following of ppl to condone that what you teach is right. the rightness of something is not determined by counting heads that follow you. Jesus had a following, but i bet there were more ppl that didnt follow Him, and i think i could construct a pretty good argument that apostle Paul never had a big following compared to the amount of ppl he met on his journeys, so youre in good company, and besides, i understand that rewards arent always given in this life.
Hi Gerry,
I think one of the reasons many believe the church needs full time workers is because they feel that extensive monologues are necessary for the body to grow. There is no Biblical basis for that idea of course. There is no indication in the NT that teachers taught by means of monologue. The book “To preach or not to preach” by David Norrington does a great job of demonstrating this along with the fact.
The method the NT teachers used when teaching the saints was typically by means of dialogue and not monologue. The dialogue method is known to be a superior form of teaching as it tends to engage the attention of the listener more. People are more likely to pay attention if they know they have the opportunity to ask a question and contribute. Also, when a teacher might pose questions to his listener (as Christ often did), this forces the listener to have to think more rather than simply listening to information and believing it.
Note that I’m not asserting there is no place for the monologue in the christian experience. I mean, I’ve learned a lot by listening to sermons and I myself give monologues in my channel. I’m simply emphasizing that there is no NT basis for it as the primary teaching method by NT teachers during church meetings to help the church to grow. Also, note that when I seek to teach on my channel, I’m not preventing other believers from using their gifts during church meetings (I also give people the opportunity to interact with me through the comment section). The typical church practice of emphasizing one man’s teaching does in fact tend to discourage/prevent other believers during meetings from contributing as they might be led of the Holy Spirit.
Also, some argue that in order for a man to be a good teacher he must somehow spend 30+ hours a weak studying. Certainly, its important to spend much time in studying to be a good teacher, but one doesn’t need to spend so much time that they refrain from holding a secular job. We know that is the case because God expects all believers, including elders (Acts 20:35), to work in order to support themselves. Obviously, the fact that a man has to work to support himself is going to limit the amount of time he can spend in the time, but that’s okay since God never calls any elder to become some super theological expert as many think a pastor should be. The fact that the NT norm is for there to be multiple elders in each church draws attention to the fact that the teaching responsibility can be shared among multiple men and should not be placed on one man. In addition, its not as though non elders shouldn’t teach of course. Young, aspiring teachers also should be free to share and teach during meets if they feel led and gifted by the Holy Spirit.
To reiterate, the NT doesn’t place any emphasis on teaching by monologue to ensure spiritual growth of the body and I would submit there isn't much evidence that sermons actually help a church to truly grow in the NT sense. Church growth isn't just about individual growing in head knowledge of course, but its about the body functioning together in an orderly/loving way, growing up into Christ. This is seen or alluded to in such texts as Eph 4:16, 1 Cor 12-14, Rom 12, Heb 10:25. Yet, it is this NT idea that many churches ultimately don’t put into practice as they tend to emphasize one man doing much of the sharing during the meeting. Such a practice tends to stifle the body of Christ from functioning and growing.
“therefore, since they do such a great service for God and mankind”
Certainly, these men have communicated a lot of truth and God has and can wrk through them, but they have also tended to propagate a corrupt church system that stifles true growth in the body.
“ am i wrong, or do i reasonably conclude that the Holy Spirit helps me to understand knowledge of the will of God? (colossians 1, 9)”
No, the Holy Spirit can indeed help you to understand the word of God. Pastors/teachers are simply one of the instruments the Holy Spirit may use to assist other believers in understanding the truth of the Word.
Lastly, I realize the rightness of something isn't determined but the amount of people who agree with it, but I can just get a bit bored and discouraged when I don't get much feedback at all, even if its a respectful disagreement.I'm thankful for those who do comment at times though (at least those who are respectful anyway).
i cant believe theres such a disinterest in the things of God among ppl who claim to be saved. it makes me think of the words of Jesus "will there be any faith when I return."
ive been on different christian forums, but all they seem to do is argue, belittle each other, or theyre trying to impress ppl with diatribes filled with $50 words that nobody uses in their vocabulary that amounts to word salad with no substance. i read something about organic churches in your comment section, ive never heard of them, what do you think of them?
keep doing what youre doing. maybe all youll do in this life is have an impact on a few ppl, but maybe thats what God wants you to do.
Hi Gerrry,
I understand what you’re saying about christians arguing on forums. There is a place for substantive, scriptural disputation, but what is not appropriate is when christians belittle each other which is what you appear to have seen yourself. I see this a lot in youtube comment sections and it can get on my nerves. It is rare for me to actually find other believers who can have an argument without resorting to insults in some way, or making some kind of unkind judgement on the person’s heart etc.
In regard to organic churches, to my knowledge they are closer to the Biblical norm than traditional churches. I understand organic churches emphasize the living nature of the body of Christ where each members is free to function and contribute to the meeting according to how they are gifted and led by the Holy Spirit. Note that christians can have an organic church even if its just a few christians who meet together to fellowship and use their respective gifts in attempt to minister to each others.
Really insightful teaching. What kind of church are you part of?
Hi Bokescreek,
Thanks for watching and for your encouraging remark. I haven't attended a church meeting in quite some time. But the kind of church meeting I find to be the most appropriate is one that is more informal and smaller than traditional meetings where each member is allowed to contribute according to how they are led and gifted by the Holy Spirit. Years ago I used to attend a Reformed Baptist church, and non denomination churches etc. But one of the problems I have with these kinds of churches is not just the meeting format but the fact that some of the pastors are salaried. I have other videos I did long ago which address some of the other problems I find with traditional churches if you're interested. But feel free to ask me any questions or private message me if you want. Thanks again!
JaguerRhye I was born and raised catholic
@@andreobaty5445 Hi Andre, Sorry as I just saw this comment. I was born and raised catholic as well. I left catholocism after I became a christian though