Did Jesus Have a Fallen Human Nature?
Vložit
- čas přidán 17. 07. 2019
- My website: www.jordanbcooper.com
Patreon: / justandsinner
Twitter: / justandsinner
This video addresses the question: Did Jesus have a fallen human nature? This is a position that was popularized by TF Torrance, Karl Barth, and others.
Very well done on a difficult topic
Your new book on mystic union better have an audio book or kindle version
All of my books are on Kindle.
I love the concept of Jesus’ perfect life on earth earns us righteousness so he needed to live a perfect holy obedient life to give us righteousness.
AMEN!!!
Adam never ate of the tree of life, the tree of life was protected so that they would not eat of it and live forever as sinners. The Bible does not say.that Adam took from that tree ever. Having a sinful flesh does not necessarily mean that the person has to give in to the temptation of it. As long as there is no giving in to temptation, there is no sin.Now Jesus received the Holy Spirit and after this he was tempted by Satan. Also, the scriptures says Jesus was tempted in every way without sinning.
But having sinful flesh and blood, flesh and blood carrying the effects of original sin, makes us (1) strongly attracted and drawn to sin ("concupiscence") and (2) dark in mind which makes often not know what actually is good and what is evil. Jesus was tempted by the devil to commit sins of the spirit (worldly lordship and power) but Jesus was never tempted to commit any sins of the flesh, nor was Mary, nor were Adam and Eve until they sinned. In other words Jesus lacked the concupiscence we sinners are burdened with, Mary same, Adam and Eve same until they fell.
John Behr seems to argue that Irenaeus argued Adam was a type of Christ not the other way around so wouldn't that contradict this theory?
forensic and participatory - yeah let's have both ! thanks for this video. Helpful and clear. Jesus enters into the fallen condition. TFT's Incarnation is really wonderful.
Just some thoughts I had as I watched this interesting episode.
Empathy - taking on an experience/mentality **as one’s own**. In my experience and understanding, empathy is not only *intellectually understanding another’s external/internal experience, but *emotionally experiencing as well.
This episode made me think of something I hadn’t before: perhaps in a sense (human language and all) as God, He can - and had - physically and spiritually empathically taken on sinful flesh (and all that it entails). (So in other words… while we only experience empathy in an intellectual and emotional level - which some could argue can also have physical ramifications as well- God has a much truer, fuller ability with empathy… I had never thought about this before, or have heard it mentioned before, but I can see how that language might help us inch closer to understanding how He can truly have dual nature and experience?)
I may not be using the Webster’s dictionary version of the word Empathy, but from my own experience as an empath.
Additional random thoughts on the Jesus being tempted segment:
There is the actual act of being tempted.
Then there is the inner/spiritual/psychological response, of “being tempted.”
- Former: “She is tempting the person with a pie.”
- Latter: “I feel tempted to eat that entire pie.
- In the former sense of temptation, the “temptee” may not experience temptation of the latter sense.
(ie: A person may be tempting with pie, maybe even eating it and making “yum” sounds… but the temptee still may not desire the pie.)
- In the temptation of the latter sense, the “temptee” may not be experiencing temptation of the former sense.
(ie: No person - or even pie for that matter - may even be in sight for a person to feel ‘tempted to eat an entire pie.’)
Thanks for tackling this. I’m an Anglican and a Torrance fan. His patristic immersion is the main reason as I’m not reformed, in terms of Calvinism at all. I lean towards Thomas’ Christology not his ecclesiology.
Again very good but one thing you didn’t address was that Jesus was born without original sin. I don’t think that contradicts the point that he assumed a fallen nature - pain, suffering, sorrow , death. All in his human nature,; his divine nature didn’t suffer these things, but in the mystery of the hypostatic Union the Divine Person did suffer these things.
St maximus is insightful here. He distinguished between the natural will and gnomic will. Christ is a divine person with two wills (human and divine) st maximus says Christ has a natural human will but not a gnomic will ( sinful inclination )like we have. Very interesting topic!
The eastern fathers like Maximus and Gregory of Nyssa were something else
𝑺𝒖𝒑𝒆𝒓𝒃 video!
Thank you, thank you!
It’s a bit like an onion-so many layers!
Maybe the pieces will fall into place for us if we look at what Paul says was accomplished by Christ’s death: that he, Paul, was “crucified with Christ”, that 2) “if one [Christ] died then were all dead”, and that 3) “justification of life passed upon all”.
Note what Paul does not claim: he does not claim that he is crucified 𝒍𝒊𝒌𝒆 Christ, but that he is crucified 𝒘𝒊𝒕𝒉 Christ; his statement in 2 Cor. 5:14 that Christ death resulted in “𝒂𝒍𝒍 𝒘𝒆𝒓𝒆 [rendered] 𝒅𝒆𝒂𝒅"; note that justification passing 𝒖𝒑𝒐𝒏 𝒂𝒍𝒍 occurs in the event of His resurrection (2 Cor. 5:14; Romans 4:25).
This same federal connection to every human occurred in Adam ( Romans 5:12-19).
I think we must be very cautious about the idea of Original Sin. Unless it is very carefully defined we end up trying to cram square Scripture into round holes, which leads directly into excusing away Scripture that doesn’t fit our invented doctrine of Original Sin. Example? Romans 8:3. As long as we cling to a traditional concept of what Original Sin means, we will not be able to hear what this verse is saying. When we go about explicating Roman’s 8:3 with our standard understanding of Original Sin in place, we sieze on the expression 𝒍𝒊𝒌𝒆𝒏𝒆𝒔𝒔 𝒐𝒇 𝒔𝒊𝒏𝒇𝒖𝒍 𝒇𝒍𝒆𝒔𝒉 and immediately it’s different than 𝒔𝒊𝒏𝒇𝒖𝒍 𝒇𝒍𝒆𝒔𝒉 𝒊𝒕𝒔𝒆𝒍𝒇. We conclude this precisely because we feel we must protect the Incarnate Christ from contamination from fallen Adam that would otherwise contaminate and disqualify Him. But suppose coming to this verse without the felt need to “protect Jesus”. What would we 𝒕𝒉𝒆𝒏 hear this verse saying? that what Jesus took was 𝒍𝒊𝒌𝒆 𝒔𝒊𝒏𝒇𝒖𝒍 𝒇𝒍𝒆𝒔𝒉 not 𝒖𝒏𝒍𝒊𝒌𝒆 𝒔𝒊𝒏𝒇𝒖𝒍 𝒇𝒍𝒆𝒔𝒉. And it is abundantly evident that anything that makes some particular flesh 𝒅𝒊𝒇𝒇𝒆𝒓𝒆𝒏𝒕 𝒕𝒉𝒂𝒏 sinful flesh is by definition 𝒖𝒏𝒍𝒊𝒌𝒆 𝒔𝒊𝒏𝒇𝒖𝒍 𝒇𝒍𝒆𝒔𝒉; and that, inversely, the only kind of flesh that is 𝒍𝒊𝒌𝒆 𝒔𝒊𝒏𝒇𝒖𝒍 𝒇𝒍𝒆𝒔𝒉 is 𝒔𝒊𝒏𝒇𝒖𝒍 𝒇𝒍𝒆𝒔𝒉! But you can’t let yourself hear that when you’re operating from an overbroad concept of what “Original Sin” is allowed to mean.
There was a connection between Adam and every future member of the human family. That connection was so real that when he became broken every human became broken. In the same way, God gathered up the entirety of the human race and placed them into one man (1 Cor. 1:30): the Man Christ Jesus.
The Son of God emptied Himself of Himself (Eph. 2:6,7), that He might take 𝒐𝒖𝒓𝒔𝒆𝒍𝒗𝒆𝒔 𝒊𝒏𝒕𝒐 𝑯𝒊𝒎𝒔𝒆𝒍𝒇. “How,” it may be asked “could every phase of Christ’s earthly experience impact so deeply, so directly on each individual in the whole of humanity?” By the Divine Son not simply taking some generic human nature, but by His assumed humanity being comprised of every and each individual in this human family.
Never have I heard it stated and demonstrated so clearly as was put by A.T. Jones, clear back in 1895, when he said,
A. T. Jones:
“We are still studying the name of Christ, which is ‘God with us.’ And, as stated before, he could not be God with us without becoming ourselves, because it is not himself that is manifest in the world. We do not see Jesus in this world, as he was in heaven he did not come into this world as he was in heaven nor was that personality manifested in the world which was in heaven before he came. He emptied himself, and became ourselves. Then putting his trust in God, God dwelt with him. And he being ourselves, and God being with him, he is ‘God with us.’ That is his name.
“If he had come into the world as he was in heaven, being God, manifesting himself as he was there, and God being with him, his name would not have been ‘God with us,’ for he would not then have been ourselves. But he emptied himself. He himself was not manifested in the world. For it is written: ‘No man knoweth the Son, but the Father’ - not simply no man, but no one. No one knoweth the Son, but the Father. ‘Neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.’ It is not written, No man knoweth the Son, but the Father, and he to whom the Father will reveal him. No. No man knoweth the Son at all, but the Father. And the Father does not reveal the Son in the world; but the Son reveals the Father. Christ is not the revelation of himself. He is the revelation of the Father to the world, and in the world, and to men. Therefore, he says, ‘No man knoweth the Father, but the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal the Father.’ So it is the Father that is revealed in the world, and revealed to us, and revealed in us in Christ. This is the one thing that we are studying all the time. This is the center around which everything else circles. And Christ having taken our human nature in all things in the flesh, and so having become ourselves, when we read of him and the Father’s dealings with him, we are reading of ourselves, and of the Father’s dealings with us. What God did to him was to us; what God did for him was for us. And therefore, again it is written: ‘He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him’” 2 Corinthians 5:21.
𝑻𝒉𝒊𝒔 is “𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒈𝒐𝒔𝒑𝒆𝒍 𝒐𝒏𝒄𝒆 𝒅𝒆𝒍𝒊𝒗𝒆𝒓𝒆𝒅 𝒕𝒐 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒔𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒕𝒔"!
i think he is right about everything in the west being wrong after the council of Chalcedon but the eastern orthodox also sided with
pope Leo ll on that one and accepted that christology so what really is the difference of eastern orthodox and Catholicism in terms of christology if the both accept Chalcedons definition.
Could you do a video on the book "Jesus fallen?"
What do you think of the idea Jordan Peterson talks about that the part about biting the forbidden fruit by adam could be a clever metaphor about evolution in a sense that would be the start of humans understanding about sin basically the point where humans develop moral responsibility because they see that their actions can cause harm. Animals are not morally responsible if lion eats a sheep its just doing it's nature but humans are smarter and better. Therefore they need guidance that bibble gives how to live fruitful moral lives.
Peterson has a very particular way of reading Scriptural texts that I would largely disagree with. For him, the stories in Scripture are manifestations of archetypal concepts which are part of the human psyche. I take them as divine revelation.
Paul says the He came in the likeness of sinful flesh (Rom 8:3). Is it simple enough to say that Jesus was born without original sin? (Since he was not from Adam's seed?) Edit: grammar, I didnt even watch the whole video before replying, either!
He was without sin. Was not born by man. He's not Adam's seed. Likeness of sinful flesh mean human being. He appeared to be like human but He was not.
He was a spirit in celestial body please. He's from above and is above all. The second Adam was a life giving spirit. This is rubbish to think that Christ was human
@@nkwemenimerclentita3600 Yeah, that's a heresy.
Mary's flesh was free of any stain of original sin (the "immaculate conception") so her Son Jesus was too. This is the whole point of the immaculate conception----to show us that without any doubt Jesus was free from both actual sin and the stain of original sin, even though in His human nature He descended from Adam.
@@nkwemenimerclentita3600 If Christ Jesus had no flesh how could He have died on the cross and if He never died there could be no resurrection. And if Christ Jesus was not raised we are all dead in our sins and still the slaves of sin. If Jesus Christ was never human then we have no hope as people and the martyrs who died for Christianity wasted their time.
What is fallen human nature but Adam's nature with original sin? If Jesus is like us in every way save original sin, then what difference would there be between His humanity and Adam's humanity?
I see Jordan put in "Dr" in front of his youtube name, Jordan has hit the big time lol
Tom Bladecki huh?
Tom Bladecki the topic was did Jesus have sin? Obviously humans do
IfJesus had a "a fallen nature in some sense" how was He the spotless, sinless lamb of God? Phil 2:5 says, Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus. Jesus, "being in the form of God....made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant coming in the likeness of men. ...in appearance as a man..." excerpts from Philippians 2:6-8 so He chose to take the form of a servant. The human body of flesh doesnt have a fallen nature unless it is animated by a fallen human mind.
We are exorted to "have THIS [particular, specific] mind of humility & obedience to the Father, which was in Jesus Christ.
Rom 12:1,2 we are to present our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy & acceptable to God....how? Be transformed by the reneeing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good & acceptable & perfect will of God.
Jesus' mind was emptied of the glory & position that He had with the Father.
The gospel of Christ is the power of God to salvation, to every one who believes. For in it [the gospel] the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith. Rom 1:16,17.
....your faith grows exceedingly, & the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other. 2 Thes 1:3 & vs12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him etc
Purpose: all to His glory when He comes in that Day, to be glorified in His saints, & to be admired among all those who believe.
What an amazing work of grace. He humbled Himself to the point of death. As an act of servanthood of His divine, sinless nature.
If Torrance is a student of Barth, then he bound to go in some strange directions. Barth was not exactly orthodox.
So did death enter the the world through sin or was death kept at bay by continues eating of tree of life? If death enters through sin then why the need for tree of life? And if Adam is mortal then death did not enter at point of sin but always was present and kept at bay by tree of life. Let me ask this if Adam would never sin and never eat from tree of life would he die? And another question if Jesus is sinless would he live forever on earth if it was not for human sins being hoisted on him? And the last question how come God knows good and evil and does not die but Adam had to die from knowing good and evil?
@Tom Bladecki God is a spirit
Jesus is a soul. Well then Jesus is not God.
@Tom Bladecki ok. But I believe that we all are spirits primarily then we have a soul and a body. As u can remember that Adam was created from dust, but what separates Adam from all other creation is that God breathed his own spirit into Adams body and he became a living soul. So we are eternal spirits that come to inhabit a material realm.
@Tom Bladecki Probably closer than you think.
@@alexpukay no
God is Spirit and he took on an additional nature, that being human. Jesus is the God-man
@@danielmann5427 a human is a being who has a body, soul and spirit of a limited being. God is unlimited.
Where in the Bible was Jesus said to be sick?
Jesus and Mary were free from the ability to contract sicknesses from bacteria or viruses, as were Adam and Eve before they sinned. Sickness is one of the effects of original sin.
i think Severus handles this wonderfully in his writings against Julianism, i’m confused on why it’s not referenced more
Can you elaborate more on this what is Severus position?
A few thoughts.
1) The Christian tradition is against the idea that Jesus sinned - that is not a strong objection, because the (magisterial) Reformers got rid of, re-interpreted or question a good deal of Christian tradition. If the doctrines about the Church, the Canon and the Eucharist could be questioned - why not Christological questions, too ? Maybe the post-Apostolic Church, which allowed much that the Reformers rejected, was wrong in teaching some of what they retained. Some Fathers taught the Omniscience of Christ on Earth - this is contrary to what the Gospels say. If some of the Fathers got that wrong, maybe they were equally wrong to think Jesus was Sinless.
2) Parts of the NT favour the Sinlessness of Christ - St Matthew’s Gospel suggests he was far from sinless. The indecisiveness of Scripture suggests that both doctrines should be equally allowed in the Church, so that Christians have freedom to believe as they judge fit.
3) A Sinless Christ is not humanly credible, for to be a sinner, is part of the human condition in this world. Therefore, a truly Incarnate God would share in our sinfulness. The doctrine of Jesus’ Sinlessness undermines the reality of the Incarnation.
4) The doctrine of Jesus’ total and universal Sinlessness makes his Temptations look deceitful. For how can someone who was never in danger of sinning, be any kind of model to Christians, who sin “seven times a day” ?
5) Habakkuk says that God is “of purer eyes than to behold evil” - but if that is not an objection to Jesus being “made sin” for us, how is it an objection to his being a sinner ?
6) How can God save through a sinful Saviour ? Because God is Present in Jesus, and is in no way changed or modified or weakened by the Incarnation. If God can indwell sinful Christians - how can God not indwell a sinful, not yet perfected Jesus who had yet to “taste death” ?
That Jesus is Sinless and Perfected in Heaven, need not be doubted. His Earthly Life, in His condition of humiliation before His Glorious Resurrection, is what poses the problems.
I think T. F. Torrance was onto something. The *human credibility* of the Incarnation is very important. To put it mildly. Jesus is not “like us” if He was totally sin-free.
Objection: to say this of Jesus, is blasphemous.
Reply: so, from a Jewish POV, was the Death on the Cross - according to Deuteronomy 21.21-23, “cursed is he that hangeth on a tree”. Jesus was “hanged on a tree”, as St Peter notices. Therefore, Jesus is cursed. Scripture says so. Jesus was humanly a bastard - Deuteronomy 23 excludes bastards from the community (compare St Matthew 1 & St John 8.33.) The point is, that Jesus *stopped at nothing to share in our alienation from God* even to the point of being accursed, made sin. *That* is how He manifests the excellence of His Holiness & the greatness of God’s Love.
Jesus turns things upside-down: including Scripture, holiness, and blasphemy.
Bro looks like he’s wearing a hospital gown…Nurse!
This is an area where Eastern theology greatly trumps Western theology. We make a distinction between 'fallen flesh' and 'sinful flesh'. Everyone inherits the fallen human nature of death, sickness and decay, including Christ (ancestral sin). Sinful flesh is the result of an individual's sinful acts, not something inherited from Adam (original sin).
It's interesting how Torrance has come up with his own sort of 'Immaculate Conception', saying that the Holy Spirit sanctifies Christ's sinful flesh at birth, but this type of theological move is necessary in order to hold a belief in both the Incarnation and Original Sin at the same time.
Why do EO baptize infants if you don't have any concept of original sin?
Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 41: There is, then, besides the evil which supervenes on the soul from the intervention of the evil spirit, an antecedent, and in a certain sense natural, evil which arises from its corrupt origin. For, as we have said before, the corruption of our nature is another nature having a god and father of its own, namely the author of corruption.
@@Mygoalwogel why were infants circumcised?
@@blade7506 That sounds more like it implies a Presbyterian argument than an Oriental Orthodox one. Regardless, I wrote that comment quite a while ago. After getting to know the Egyptian in-laws of a sibling, I think they do essentially believe in Original Sin without calling it that. The two greatest things about them is (1) they missed the memo requiring Orthodox to be as anti-western as possible, and (2) they treat me like blood even though I'm not even technically their in-law. They have no dang reason to owe me a thing, but they'd gouge out their eyes for me.
St maximus distinguishes between natural will and from gnomic will. Very interesting
Seriously how can Jesus be sinless if he was born of sinful woman. For his flesh to be sin free it has to be from heaven and immortal. And if that's the case he would not be human representative cuz he would not be a human in a true sense. But if Jesus did have a sinful nature and never sinned then his sacrifice would be unnecessary because his life would prove that u can also live sin free life even with a fallen nature.
Mary's flesh was free of the effects of original sin so so was Jesus's. Jesus was a man like other men except He was without sin.
@@GeorgePenton-np9rh if marry and Jesus can be free of original sin what's stopping god doing the same for everyone? I dont see any logic. And how would she be free of original sin if she was born from Adam's line?
@@alexpukay God does not make everyone free of the effects of original sin because if He did we would all become proud, at least the vast majority of us would. We would have extraordinarily beautiful bodies, we would never be tempted to sins of the flesh, we would all have perfect health, none of us would ever die or even age (an eighty-year-old would look like a twenty-year-old), and we would all have wisdom and intelligence far beyond what we have now.
Adam and Eve had all this but it made them proud and they fell from grace. Lucifer also had great beauty, intelligence, and power but he too became proud and he too fell from grace.
Many of the troubles and conflicts we have on earth are sent by God to keep our pride in check. The current coronavirus pandemic might be an example of that.
@@alexpukay You also asked how Mary could be free of the effects of original sin if she is from Adam's line. The answer is that this was done miraculously by God when Mary was conceived. Mary was not born of a virgin. Her parents Joachim and Anne had normal sexual relations and that is how Mary came to be, but God worked a very invisible miracle in Anne's womb and preserved Mary from all stain of original sin. This is what Catholics mean when they refer to the immaculate conception of Mary.
@@GeorgePenton-np9rh so if god does not want us to be able to be prideful then he could of made us that way. Can god be prideful? No? Does that mean god has no free will? No. So why blame pride on Adam's free will choice?
The conception of human nature in Western Christianity makes this more complicated than it needs to be. That's how it seems to me at least.
@john fisher True, I also live in Germany and our Landeskirchen do A LOT wrong sadly... Too much forced tolerance and "modernizing" theology in terms of sexuality for example
john fisher These are not churches anymore.
I don't think it makes it complicated at all.
Jesus is the last Adam.
It’s amazing that the falsehood of inherited guilt of Adam has so infiltrated western Christianity, that even in this discussion, it eludes Christian’s that perhaps since we know Jesus was absolutely sinless, and He took upon Himself every aspect of our flesh, tested in every way at all points just as we are, that your asking the wrong question, The question is are we born with a sinful nature? The answer to this known by Christians up until Augustine was a resounding no, Jesus doesn’t have a sinful nature and neither do you, you are born innocent until proven guilty. Hebrews is very clear, John gets very serious about this, test the spirits, every spirit that confesses that Jesus came in the flesh is of God, those who deny it are not of God. You are a sinner because you sin, sinful nature inherited at birth as absolutely false. Forget what you’ve been taught let the Bible be your teacher, read hebrews and ask yourself the question, how is it if I have a sinful nature inherited from birth, can I reconcile hebrews 2:14-20, and furthermore if Adam didn’t have a sinful nature how is it that he sinned? Believe whatever you like this is the truth of Gods word. Written plainly but we have to let go of idols in order to believe it. God bless you. The answer is yes Jesus took on fallen human flesh if you want to word it that way that’s fine, the answer is yes
_Genesis 8:21 (ESV)_ The intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth.
_Deuteronomy 30:6 (ESV)_ And the Lord your God will *circumcise your heart* and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.
_Psalm 58:3_ The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
_Jeremiah 17:9 (ESV)_ The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?
_Ezekiel 11:19 (ESV)_ And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh.
_Luke 24:45 (ESV)_ Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures
_Acts 5:31_ “God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.”
_John 8:34 (ESV)_ Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin
_Acts 16:14 (ESV)_ One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.
_Romans 8:7 (ESV)_ For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.
_Romans 10:1 (EHV)_ Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God on behalf of the Israelites is that they may be saved.
_Romans 12:3 (NKJV)_ For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as *God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.*
_1 Corinthians 2:14 (ESV)_ The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
_2 Corinthians 3:5 (ESV)_ Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God.
_2 Corinthians 4:3-4_ Our gospel is veiled… to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
_Ephesians 2:2 (ESV)_ You were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
_Ephesians 2:5 (ESV)_ Even when we were dead in our trespasses, he made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved.
_Ephesians 2:8 (ESV)_ For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this [faith] is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.
_Philippians 1:29 (NKJV)_ For to you *it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him,* but also to suffer for His sake,
_Philippians 2:13 (ESV)_ For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
_Colossians 2:12_ And in baptism you were also raised with him through *the faith worked by the God* who raised Christ from the dead.
_1 Thessalonians 2:13_ For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.
_2 Timothy 2:25_ God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
Fallen? Into the experience of mortality? Yes! He got His Flesh from Mary alone! That flesh was made from her father's sperm and her mother's embryo. Sin is not a nature but a choice to transgress the law. Even His human soul, (intellect emotions and will) were created but there was no human person in Christ.
He is the Divine person of the Logos incarnate. He became flesh, He is not a nephelim as that pervert Augustine taught, having a flesh made of implanted sperm from the Holy Spirit and Mary. If you affirm this you are an antichrist like Augustine was. Original sin is a western Heresy, and no the Eastern Orthodox are not Pelagians so do not even go there junior pope
Jesus took on hunan flesh but not sinful human flesh. To suggest otherwise would not only be heresy but a horrible blasphemy .
Jesus committed a sin by obeying His Father and dying on the cross for us? What kind of warped logic is that?
Of course the Protestant hero Martin Luther said that Jesus had sex with the woman caught in adultery, so maybe among Lutherans this ridiculous notion might be enteratined....
Check out Wolfmueller he debunks your bullshit
Of course Jesus was sinless and of course He did not have a fallen human nature. First off, He is God Incarnate, and God cannot be sinful or fallen. Second off, He got His flesh from Mary, who also was sinless and without the effects of original sin, so how could Jesus have a fallen human nature? This whole theory is both heretical and blasphemous.
Interesting. Did Mary's parents also have an unfallen nature? And where in Scripture does it say that Mary had an unfallen nature?
How did she have an unfallen nature? An anomaly down her family tree?
Maybe a Lutheran would think Jesus had fallen human nature. After all their hero Martin Luther said that Jesus fornicated with the woman at the well, Mary Magdalene, and the woman caught in adultery.
Hello
Jesus is the Messiah
The Son of God
The Son of David
The Son of man
The man God has chosen to be his anointed king
The man God will judge the world through
The man God raised from the dead
Jesus has a God
There is no triune god in scripture
Jesus said the Father is the only true God!
John 17
3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
The Bible _does_ say Jesus is Uncreated Creator: Jn 1:3; 1 Cor 8:6; Heb 1:8
The Bible _does_ say Jesus is equal with the Father: John 5:18; Col 2:9; Jn 10:30-33
The Bible _does_ say Jesus is “My God” Jn 20:28, “God over all” Rom 9:5, “Our God and Savior” 2 Peter 1:1; 3:18, “the only-begotten God” Jn 1:18
The Bible _does_ say Jesus is “The God” Heb 1:8, “The Great God” Titus 2:13, “I AM” Jn 8:58
Bonus: Acts 7:59; Acts 20:28
Prototokos as preeminent: Ex 4:22; Jer 31:9 (LXX 38:9); Ps 89:27; 2 Sam 19:43; Heb 12:23
@@Mygoalwogel
Hello
No the Bible never says Jesus is uncreated or that Jesus is the God
Jesus has a God
Could you tell me who Jesus’s God is?
Rom 15
6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
2 Cor 11
31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed for ever, knows that I do not lie.
Eph 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him,
1 Pet 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,