Rapier and Dagger vs Katana and Wakizashi sparring. Tom vs Nick
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- čas přidán 30. 01. 2016
- Testing two dual wield combinations against one another! The rapier was very commonly used with an offhand dagger, and here the katana is wielded in the lead hand and wakizashi in the offhand. Nick, who is using the Japanese weapons, is a European swordsmanship instructor who is incorporating some of the principals of Miyamoto Musashi's Niten Ichi-ryū. Two sword technique that can be done with katana and wakizashi or two katanas, though much of his style will of course be drawn from his extensive practice of European sword styles.
Do not think of this as some conclusive evidence of any potential outcome. It is merely a fun experiment and exhibition.
Weapons used are - Rapier - Darkwood armoury custom with 45" fullered bated blade and a Kovex Ars custom dagger.
Katana is a Cold Steel poly bokken, and wakizashi from the same range.The cold steel bokken has a 30" blade which is a little longer than typical.
The height disparity of opponents was intentional, as Europeans were far taller on average than the Japanese in the era in which these could have met. Tom is 7" taller than Nick, which comes close to representing the sort of difference that could have been expected.
Simply the fact they’re dual-wielding made this video stoke the fires of my inner 8-year-old.
the thing is rapier is superious because it can flex there fore easier deflects rapier is longer 1 handed and really good for stabing.
Helllllyeaaah
All I see from that fencer is (R1, R1, R1, R1)
estoc spam
that's what the fencer is supposed to do, close in and use distance as an advantage and thrust, stab before yourself is cut or stabbed
+Kevin Li theres a great deal more to fencing than thrusting.
Didn't say thrusting was the only thing about fencing, but thanks for the insight on something I was already well aware of...
Kevin Li well estoc R1 spam is literaly only thrusting repeatedly till the enemy dies. Which isent what you do in a actual sword fight.
I remember hearing stories about swordfights during the Russo-Japanese war, Russian soldiers armed with thin piercing swords like rapiers, vs Japanese swordsmen carrying katanas. Sometimes both men would end up dying, the Russian immediately after the battle from massive cuts, and the Japanese dying hours or days later from several small stab wounds.
Japanese swords *is* made for slashing, they can decapitate a person if the wielder is skilled enough
@@lacialovescatsthis fact is quite well known, my friend. Well known indeed...
Damn, the rapier gave him a serious advantage due to it's range. It was hardly fair.
Kudos to the guy with the katana, you can tell these guys both have a lot of skill.
Its actually not that big of an advantage, rapiers were generally only good for thrusting, which is limiting.
@@seemslegit6203 which is all you ever need in a duel against unarmored target, so I'd say that the rapier in this video has a massive advantage. Kudos to Nick for holding his ground
@@doremonhg Actually, it has to be considered, that the samurai would be fully armored. Which changes a lot the situation compared to the guys on the video.
@@IvoRadev
Why would the samurai be fully armoured?
@@IvoRadev Only on the battlefield, where he would use primarily other weapons anyway.
I like how the Katana guy kept attacking rapier guy's hand. Smart move since Rapier has the edge in reach. I guess the strategy on an opponent with longer reach is to let him come to you, parry his attack, and then counter attack the nearest target. Interesting
Yes that is one method something to keep in mind though the hand guard of most all late rapiers is very protective so the hand is very well protected.
Common in knife fighting too.
Yeah to bad the rapier is pretty good a covering the hand , not invincible but damn good
Actually in a real rapier fight, the rapier guy would stab the leading foot, pretending to go for the gut, allowing the katanas parry to push the rapier tip down into the foot itself. Essentially allowing the rapier fighter to pin the guy to the ground
@@sinisterfire6641 is this a common technique or just your own creativity?
Considering the massive reach disadvantage that Nick has with the Japanese weapons, he did fucking amazing. Another great vid. Keep em coming.
If the guy trying to do nitto would hold the sword right, his disadvantage with distance wouldn't be a problem. The sword is held at the base of the tsuka not up by the tsuba. Nitto players only do that up close. It shows this guy doesn't understand what he is doing.
Also, the shotou should be used for blocking and the daitou for returned attacks at the same time. He is not doing that because he doesn't understand the basic principles of nitto ryu.
Hurr durr if he held the magical sword one inch lower he wouldn't be at a 1:2.5 steps disadantage.
Shut up weeb.
Nope, I know what I am talking about. Sorry if it bothers you.
Anarcarian hema players look slow and clunky. And player is a term for anyone who does fencing. Sorry you don't know what you are talking about.
Anarcarian it was horrendous. But if you took a moment to see the calibre of matches im use to, you'd understand. But you live in your little echo chamber and get butt hurt because your precious made up hema gets ridiculed. They look like people who have been doing it a few months. Not skilled individuals. This video is on par with the wanna be kenshi who makes videos on how to use the sword when they have no idea what they are doing.
Oh snap the Dark Souls 4 trailer is looking good
I love the new armor set in this Trailer 😍
The colorful environment textures concern me.
The new Rapier and Sword weapon look fun!
no its for honor 2
estoc R1 spam + parry dagger + Legion Etiquette gesture.
maybe a hornet ring too
Hmm. I see your estoc, and raise you O&U katanas L2-L1 with rouge
?
Don't spoon feed please.
ummm what the fuck? I don't get it.
this seemed waaaay more even-matched than the straight rapier-katana duel. looks like the wakazashi really helped defensively
1:22 first fatal cut from the katana, there something that puzzle me: would be possible to use a jutte instead of a wakizashi in order to not only block the rapier, but hook it in order to give the fatal blow with the katana?
@@zanir2387 honestly i think mostly the katana/waki fighter was just unable to close the gap. He is at a significant disadvantage at his range, but even at closer range you could argue the dagger is easier to control once the gap is closed. In my opinion (and I'm nobody) he would be better off with just the katana, and would have to force him in between the range of his rapier and dagger probably from the side. I could also see this easily done with a jutte as well, hooking the rapier (which is small and very fast though) and staying out of the range of the dagger. The bout at 3:00 is what i mean by closing the gap, but if he was able to continue the push and strike from the side.
The katana is shorter than the rapier, but the wakizashi is longer than the dagger so shouldn't the strategy be to block the rapier with the katana and close in and stab with the wakizashi?
anything to block is good vs rapiers or spears. otherwise rapers & spears are indisputable queens of dueling.
its all about getting past the point, a shield or anything to parry raises your chances of getting in.
@@SkepticalCaveman if it were me i would look to bind the rapier with the wakizashi and deliver a power strike with a katana, similarly to how one would handle a spear.
The main gauch would need to catch the katana strike perfectly to avoid simply being blasted through.
Wow, katana and wakizashi performed much better than I expected.
Thaddeus Carmody Is it is excellent for sparring
Really? I felt bad for him the distance disadvantage felt bad , if the opponent didn't step into the attacks so far he wouldn't have a chance to get near the guy. all he does is defend right out of the getgo
@Sprunkers the problem is that the guy with the katana was holding it from the base, when normally you hold the katana from the middle of the tsuka
@@zanir2387 the lack of proper guard is a minus especially in a duel situation.Used to practice with dull swords and even with a guard you get hurt 1000 times over. Let alone with nothing to protect your wrists.
The katana guy's swings aren't even dangerous, he swings around 3/4 the way from the opponent, even when the rapier makes mistakes over and over, he can't retaliate. He can't gain tempo. Moving up his hands further are not going to change that fact LOL.
2- Major problems
- he counters with both swords head on attacks, which gives him no time to respond at all. No time to close the gap. The grip in this instance has ALSO little impact.
- attacks from creative angles always land.
Oh good, this showed up in my recommendations again...
5% comments about the video itself
95% Dark Souls/For Honor memes.
It's all bout 4honor
I accidentally took a dark souls reference as a for honor one and man that dark souls fanbase is angry
when two peacekeepers fight
PK vs Aramusha
Grizzly Soviet I was going to say that
Grizzly Soviet When i made that comment aramusha wasnt out yet 😔
Periiiii
That's what youtube is showing me after i watch sekiro.
Not bad.
It's a Niten ichi ryu kenjutsu vs French fencing style to be honest
Welcome to HEMA and JSA, enjoy your stay.
But how incredibly cool were those other videos that CZcams showed you; where that crazy British inventor made real, working versions of some of the prosthetic tools from Sekiro?
Me too
@@tobytowbs2370 you mean the same guy that made an ak47 doorbell ?
The reach of that rapier its really huge.Those thrusting attack are the law xD
katana guy displayed great skill and excellent time despite his weapon were in big disadvantage.
It wasn't that big a disadvantage.
As a dual/1v1 type confrontation the rapier guy only really had the initial and kind of predictable lunge and it didn't matter which Japanese weapon deflected it, the other one was advantageously longer than the dagger and could thrust or slash with that advantage - if the dagger had a basket guard it would have taken a big part of that advantage away from the katana and wakizashi by being part shield but the rapier guy could only defend any retaliation by catching it on the blade or cross-guard, making any successful defense with it a seriously competent or seriously lucky catch.
And every time they restarted it swung more in favour of the guy with long and short swords over the guy with sword and dagger.
Nick is really well studied on sabres and broadswords, so i imagine it transitions well enough
onakiri and ubadachi vs estoc and parrying dagger.
funny enough those were my starting builds in ds3
Graesyn Faust
Cancer build
But parrying dagger is krap.
Solaire De Astora
Why? Cause it's not meta?
@american cheese
It is not actually a good parrying weapon and it doesn't even attacc in the left hand.
Thanks for the video. During my younger years when I was training in Kendo, I never had the oportunity to spar against a rapier but I did spar against naginata. Initiating attacks against naginata was a challenge due to the distance that I needed to reach, and came to a conclusion that a less trained (time wise) person in naginata can defeat a more trained (time wise) person. A guy with a longer weapon has the reach and attack advantage in open space as you mentioned in your video. Even though I trained in Kendo, I would give a slight edge to rapier (assume both have commensurate training) in an open space duel based on the videos that I've seem. It's undeniable - reach has the advantage. This looks like lots of fun.
This is why spears are such effective weapon for commoner and for war, they can just point that shit at anyone and they'll have a hard time
@@BelrogPlutius Right... and requires less training that w with swords.
I don't know why but I'm scared of going on the comment section because I feel like everyone's trying to be a smart ass
Interesting video. The stance used by the katana user isn't exactly the standard Niten stance. I wouldn't say it's wrong, but you're not really going to see a Niten practitioner sit in that stance for a whole sparring session. It's not very practical, especially when your opponent has a speed and reach advantage. Ideally, you'd just use the standard stance. with the Wakazashi pointed forward threatening the opponent and the katana raised overhead. The idea is that you can control the center that way and if you manage to deflect an attack you'll be able to counter simultaneously. With the stance used in the video, even when he defended he couldn't really counter.
It's a workout though trust me. Maintaining that stance for a long time is tough initially. It's also hard to get in the habit of attacking and defending simultaneously, but that is the most important part of Niten Ichi-ryu.
I feel it wouldn't at all be impractical to hold the dagger reverse grip. And a dagger with hooked quillons instead of just a straight crossguard. Many duelists in the renaissance did this and I think it would prove more effective against the katana, and get the Wakizashi alone so you can more easily get in for the kill with the rapier, from somewhere on the body away from where he's holding it.
Have you tried it? Everyone I have seen every do so has quickly reverted back. It is true that reverse grip was common for dagger fighting, when used solo, but when used offhand, I am not aware of any evidence to suggest it was ever commonly used this way. That isn't to say someone didn't at some stage, but it's lack of popularity says a lot. Reverse grip is great for launching thrusting attacks, but very poor at defensive work. It is very poor at parrying across the body (over and under the sword), and it can't use rotational parries as are also common.
Unfortunately I cannot try it myself, at least at this time. I collect real weapons, mostly antique ones. I wouldn't dare spar with something that's old and valuable to me. As for my newer swords, they're too sharp, plus I don't want to damage them as I like them as well. I've dabbled in sport fencing but that's about it.
I think that you could catch the katana near its end and swipe it away to your left in a downward motion, and attempt to hold it there long enough that your rapier could get him.
I too collect originals, and know exactly what you mean, got to look after them. The reverse grip is something I am always open to experimenting with, but everything I have seen so far would suggest it is not effective, and presents some major weaknesses. It provides very little coverage it is extremely difficult to parry most cuts with, and even most thrusts. It can have some use offensively though, as was used with Scots broadswords for example.
Coincidentally, I just purchased and received a Scottish broadsword. (assuming you mean the basket hilted highlander type)
You'd be surprised how many people don't know what old antique swords are worth on Ebay... if I wanted to sell it right now to one the sword buyers in my area, I could probably turn around a profit of 170% or more. Not to say the seller was clueless, but I knew I had to take up the opportunity.
Back to the original discussion, yeah I guess reverse grip would be a lot harder to master. Heck, I can barely see myself mastering it forward, since I am absolutely terrible with my left hand (unless I'm typing at my usual 90+ fps). Do you guys have any ambidextrous fencers?
Rapier showing high lethality. I liked the positions and exchanges.
Interesting, and nicely done. I'm surprised the shorter blades weren't used for parries and blocks more often than they were, which I thought was their primary purpose. Overall it was fun to watch. :)
You guys are great!! Nick did a seriously good job of dealing with those thrusting attacks from the rapier although he hardly ever took the offense. Tactical choice or from fear of being on the receiving end of a thrust? More lateral movement might have gone a long way as he started getting picked apart near the end.
+SundownTE Tactical choice. Without being able to get an engagement on the rapier it is almost impossible to close safely. That means him either being in an extended guard or attacking. We have found lateral movement almost useless against a rapier, just as it is a spear. It just slows down responses and creates openings for the rapier which can change direction and lines with the flick of the wrist.
Academy of Historical Fencing
Interesting.
+SundownTE Indeed.
The length of the rapier really allowed allowed him to control the flow of the duels.
Very nice sparring video! It is very interesting to see a Katana and Wakizashi used together,well done Nick!
Interesting and entertaining match-up to watch guys! :)
It seems that when using katana + wakizashi, both swords are used pretty equally for offense and defense since the length difference between the two weapons is much less than rapier + dagger. Rapier + dagger seems to use the rapier as the main weapon and the dagger comes in on occasion to act as a defensive implement and only sometimes as an offensive implement. Speaking as the katana + wakizashi wielder, do you feel that the added wakizashi helped in any way with engaging the rapier user's point? Do you think that if the rapier user instead opted to use a buckler instead of a dagger for this match-up (or possibly even tried something like case of rapiers), the match would have gone differently?
the katana dude rocks
I find the way that the duels strikes and blocks/parry’s flow together seamlessly so entrancing
Nice work, both of you! That was good sport all around.
Undead Prince Ricard Vs Interior Ministry Dual Wielding Samurai!
Off hand weapons are cool and all but I will take a shield over them any day of the week.
Except the dagger as an offhand weapon was common for wear in daily life, for self defence, brawls, informal duels etc. Carrying a shield around all day everyday is a nightmare, which is why people didn't do it. The dagger fulfils a role that the shield cannot.
That is fair. Hadn't really though of that before
a dagger could be useful for close range or parries but wouldn't a small shield be better for parries and also block attacks better than a dagger could? what is the advantages of a dagger in this situation or in general?
Cadism More comfortable to carry, also if im using an offhand weapon im probably just gonna throw it in you about 10 second into the fight and then close in with the Katana im way better with 2 hands on the grip than with 2 weapons
Great to see to experts. Showing the use off 4weopons a marvel to watch thsnk you both
Very interesting, thanks for posting this video!
Something tells me that Nick has no real experience with the Daisho, specially in Niten Ichi Ryu or other Kobudo which used two swords.
That chudan stance is actually wrong, by two reasons: One, in chudan no kamae, the swords DO NOT CROSS. They touch the kensen. Second, you DON'T USE chudan no kamae for oponents with longer reach, you use wakigamae or jodan no kamae against them, which are way more effective ways to control the enemy weapon and parry or evade the attacks.
Also, I noticed that the tachi lenght is a bit too short for a Daisho, that tachi looks a lot like a katana, I could risk and say that it is more to the lenght of a ko-katana than of a katana or even a tachi.
Still, good sparring, nonetheless. Even without full knowledge in the use of the Daisho, Nick managed to get some points against Tom, who is a fierce oponent to deal with, specially using a sword with longer reach and better speed.
Read the blade lengths in the description, also this was just for a bit of fun not for an experiment
@@guilty_mulburry5903 I am sorry if my comment sounded to you as a rather harsh critic, or maybe as an offensive comment. It was not my intention.
I intended to point out that although he was not very known to Niten Ichi Ryu techniques, he did quite well despite having no familiarity with the weapons, all which I pointed out, as a direction to Nick to seek out and pursue, so he could know more about the school and its techniques.
Anyway, thanks for comment. I knew the blade lenghts and the point of it, I've read the description BEFORE I made my comment, but it seems that rather than taking my comment as it should be, you took it the wrong way.
My entire fault.
@@sombraarthur it was a katana
@@SladeShadows yep... Seemed like it, although I was not sure if the boken was too long or if the katana was a bit too short (ko-katana).
For the correct daisho, nick had to use a tachi and a wakizashi... Also, for the correct chudan-no-kamae as taught by Musashi-sensei itself, with the kensen slightly touching each other.
Still, using a chudan stance to fight a longer sword is not very effective. Musashi sensei itself used wakigamae and toraburi to win against Kojiro Sasaki and his "Washing pole" longer size and reach. Can be done, as we can see Nick doing it, but not really great against a taller opponent with a longer sword.
I want to see Nick get better at it, so we can see one great fight against Tom, using those same techniques and styles. It would do a great favour to Niten Ichi Ryu and to all of us who practice the style. :)
Thanks for the information man
To me looks like the Katana user is more skilled than the rapier. He is more cautious and defensive---> counterattack. The rapier guy on the other hand, looks like his lunges for a thurst are clumsy a little bit and thus somewhat exposing him. Correct me if im wrong
Those were some cool exchanges
Thank you for showing us your sword fighting skills and the cultural differences between both c:
Katana is strictly worse of a sword.... if you're treating it like a European shortsword. It's gotta be used in very specific ways to be effective, just like a rapier. You can't just use it like a normal-western-sword and expect to get good results.
Well go using a katana like a normal Sword against an european sword, pretty sure your katana will break or be damaged
Make more of these in the future
Amazing display by both swordsmen, Nick has displayed beautiful and cunning movement despite his disadvantage in both height and weapon reach. great job.
Interesting match up. Tom was good with the rapier and dagger, no doubt. But Nick was great with the Katana and wakizashi. Thoroughly enjoyed it. I'm really enjoying these blended sword styles. Always interesting. Great job!
Katana and Wakizashi was OP back in Japan. Musashi was just slicing and dicing left and right, throwing his fucking sword on people's faces and then slicing off their necks. Pretty amazing to see it captured!
Good point mentioning "in Japan".
@@norphes3865 Yeah, no shit, dude.
Rapier wasn't the dominant force in the world, only Europe. It wasn't really until guns became the standard that Europe "civilized" the rest of the world.
The OG hash slinging slasher
@@raimarulightning Neither does the Katana, only in Japan, and the rapier has an advantage due to distance.
I have close to zero experience in sword fight. However once I saw an expert kenjutsu katana-wakazashi against katana sparring on a martial arts convention (or whatever the English word for such things).
Then the guy with the katana-wakazashi held the katana at the very end of the grip (as opposed to gripping behind the cuba) and he fought very much saber like. Quick circular motions, mostly from the elbow and wrist.
I dont know if such thing is traditional or common in Japanese sword fighting but it looked very fast and efficient.
not many people now a days Sword fight lol. but I'm gonna guess it was but normally don't in Japan. it would have been faster but I disagree that it was efficient. Since he had to change his grip to get more length.
Tyler Lalonde He didn't change his grip He gripped the sword the the end of the hilt where you would grip a one handed sword. He didn't changed from two handed grip to one handed during the fight. He griped the end of the katana hilt in one hand and the wakazashi in the other.
Adam Koncz yeah I understood what you meant. That's why I said its not efficient because He had to compromise. Was it a plastic or metal trainer?
Tyler Lalonde It was metal. The whole thing was a public demonstration mostly for show.
ANyway the question is that if you hold the katana in one hand, why would you held it under the cuba and not at the end of the sword? You get 4 extra inch for reach and it is much more natural to hold there in one hand. Also the hilt wouldn't get in the way for circular slashes.
Adam Koncz the handling would be harder at the end of the handle because if the weight of katanas. Or to keep his hand away from the other guys metal sword.
Amazingly.. Nick looks don t know kendo but he totally understand Musasi style.
Awesome.
His style always astonish me.
Nice video lots of fun to watch
Onikiri and Ubadachi.
rapier OP pls nerf
This was a great match well done
I never realized the reach disadvantage of a katana vs the rapier.
I want you guys to highlight the hits for us pls)
Just wondering but do you guys teach newcomers/people how to use and fight with the weapons, or do they have to some form of experience?
Yes we do teach. I will go more into this in a video about our training sessions. But in short, the majority of people that come to the club have no training in sword based martial arts. We train twice a week and typically that involves about 45 minutes instruction and drilling.
Oh, okay. Thank you.
I wish my Ninjutsu teachers went sparring with you guys
Do you have any tips for someone looking to get into sparring?
What is your experience level? Have you had any training at all? Do you have a teacher?
0:16 instantly recognized that as a variation of Niten Ichi Ryu’s first form. Well done!
Me and my bro use to spar a lot he uses a fencing foil where i used a katana use to train with one all the time. Really the training my bro taught me was blocks and counters. At the time i had no self confidence but for some reason practicing with a katana, and sparring with my brother really helped me from age 13 til now. He studied when he was in the Navy then trained me because as a child i was bullied all the time for my having a learning disability. I still wish there were schools where i live so i can sharpen my skills and learn new tactics.Because it really helped with my lack in self confidence.
I once heard maestro Ramon Martinez say that the best way to counter someone trying to rush you down is to think about a ball and a stick. Basically if you poked a ball with a stick the ball rolls out of the way around the stick.
I don't know if that would work so much here, but it might be worth considering if you can bait the katana user into chasing you then using footwork to strike at them from an odd angle. However, the rapier user this seems to be using the Italian style instead of the Spanish, so maybe it's not applicable.
I'd certainly not encourage a katana user to rush, that is the last thing you want, as you may well land a thrust on their approach, but the risk of the afterblow is greatly increased. Best thing you can do when using a long thrusting weapon against a shorter cutting one, is put them under pressure and fear of the tip that they lock up and don't move too much.
Academy of Historical Fencing
I think the thing that Maestro Ramon Martinez mentioned is similar to that one move in Capo Ferro showed.
scienceofdefence.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/capo.jpg
However what he was talking about was more for rapier vs rapier, so I don't know how it would work against a cutting weapon.
Inquartata, and yes a very powerful way to stop someone that is lunging at you with a thrust. The problem against the cut is that 1 - a right handed person's cut typically travels from right to left, and is therefore moving in the direction your body is in the inquartata, and secondly, with rapiers you step not just out of line, but past the tip of their weapon, and it's long length makes it clumsy to deliver a cut in an afterblow, but a short cutting weapon will not.
Academy of Historical Fencing
Oh, I see. I'm still trying to study as much of this as possible from various sources since I can't make it to a club easily, so this is a big help, but it was fun discussing this with you.
Katana users should rush in. This European idea of poking and running away is not effective. In kendo we are trained to rush in. To disregard the sword and attack. It is only when you accept this, can you make successful attacks. And you can say I'm wrong, but when you have senseis who have done this for their entire lives and they say rush in. You do it. They have far more credibility than people who play with katanas. They train with them. You guys just play.
what's the purpose of crossing your blades against a rapier user? its not like they are going to overhead chop you. crossing your blades only encumbers your range of motion while opening up all sorts of thrusting opportunities for your opponent. Also, if you do cross blades to block an attack, cross them with the small blade on top, you will parry with that blade and counter with the long blade (simultaneously). So many times, this guy parried with the long blade and had to spend half a second to wind up in order to counter using the long blade.
I can only make an educated guess since my club spars with other weapons and i have yet to try long sword.
But it looks to me like the crossed weapons posture works, since he is deflecting most of the thrusts. I think that keeping them apart would be a worse idea. He would cover far less surface area that way. The rapier is much faster at stabbing than sashing weapon like the daisho. If he had kept them apart, he would likely not have been able to track the thrusts.
But i agree that he would probably have benefitted from focusing his deflections towards the wakizashi rathen than play both offense and defense with the katana.
+GOOGLE STAHP PLZ Crossing of the weapons is a principal seen in Niten Ichi-ryu. It was an attempt to apply those principals to the fight. As for what would be the purpose against a rapier, well actually many rapier and dagger stances start with one weapon crossed to the other, over the weapon or sword arm. In Capo Ferro for example a common stance is for the dagger to rest over the sword arm. Why? Because it simplifies defensive actions by allowing you to parry almost any attack with one motion, rather than two, or trying to fish for their blade. And also it counters feint-disengages well.
Very interesting. Thanks!
There is a similar principle for double sword (or stick) in FMA, although applied more commonly against slashes.
Only so many ways to skin a cat.
+Andy Lee Chaisiri Not at the moment. For the katana and wakisashi we won't ever because we don't teach it. For rapier and dagger, we will eventually. However we still have so many more videos to do for sabre and longsword before we can even think to get back to rapier videos.
I agree. I'll be honest, I have zero experience in fencing. That being said, I think people mistake a lot of sword fighting techniques, and fencing techniques as being the same thing. Mushashi says that your sword(or two swords) are not your only weapons. Fighting a real duel to the death is not meant to drag on.....you want to finish quickly! Which is also why he frowned on complex draw out techniques. I suspect, that if he used the crossed sword defence, it would be used to create a large parry zone against an overhead slash, or side slash, not for the purpose of returning his own slash, but to entrap(or delay) the opponents weapon so he could close the distance for a groin kick, or head butt, or body check and then deliver the kill shot once the opponent is rocked and recovering. It seems like a pointless guard if you're going to maintain distance. Honestly, I think he would admire the highly effective rapier/dagger combo as that style incorporates a lot of his theory, as I understand it. Basically "Keep it simple stupid, and live to fight another day".
Great display of skills
Im just fascinated how well the rapier guy parries with the dagver
Nice! I love it. (by the way we clearly see the difference of technical level between you)
I say both skills are effective.
Yup. Only difference is weapons and qhy they're the way they are.
That was nothing but a massacre. "¡Slice each other at will!"
Oh and it seems that Musashi only used two long swords for training purposes because as far as the records are concerned, whenever he fought with two weapons, it was always the katana/wakizashi combo, just an addendum....
When you gotta prove that your Dex build is better because you watch anime
So tru
From a warframe fan I guess? Dex dakra is a good weapon ngl
Also, if this is coming from a warframe fan, Destreza is mainly shit
@@wasi.2k Dark Souls. But Warframe's on the to-do list
for honor 2 lookin' pretty good.
This is the coolest shit I've seen in years.
As always Nick great fun! Thanks for showcasing the east vs west weaponry. Love the continued experimenting with styles and equipment.
Was the tsuba minimslist guard a noticeable weakness in this matchup?
+Andy J Glad you are enjoying them. In this particular fight I did not find the guards a major problem. Against sabre I have for the amount and variety of cuts that come in. I also have found that since regular practice with more open hilt sabres, compared to bowl hilts and rapiers, I have gotten used to protecting my hands a lot more.
+Academy of Historical Fencing very jealous I cannot come play at your gym. Maybe if I ever find myself back cross the pond ... ;)
I like the effort, but let me tell you: next time, try to find someone with real kenjutsu or kendo experience.
I practice Kendo for >10 years and this is what I see:
- He's giving up his distance by holding the swords to far from his body. Makes it hard to close in to the opponent
- He's stance is maybe not the best choice here because he has to move fast but here he has to raise the long katana first to make a strike. The standard stance would be the wakizashi in front and the katana raised over his head. That way he's constantly threatening to hit hard and fast.
- He doesn't know how to use the wakizashi: It seems to be more of a glued on thing that he tries to improvise some blocking with. If you know how to use it, it's fast and deadly...
- He doesn't use his swords independently: whenever he blocks or attacks, both hands kinda work in sync. But they should be independent so that you can block and attack at the same time or just use one of both hands. Like playing the piano.
- He's loosing his mobility by having a western fencing style movement instead of a budo one: Spread out legs and lowering your body kills all dynamical movement forward. Instead, he should immediately pull in his back-leg and constantly maintain a stable stance. That way he can keep on moving in and around the opponent. If done right, this opens lots of opportunities to hit and escape.
- To maximize reach with his katana, he should hold it at the back, not right at the tsuba.
I'm not even going down the road when it comes to being prepared to hit, and all that psychology jazz about fighting that is such an important part...
Just my 5 cts 0:)
F. Fehse as a Niten Ichi Ryu Kendo & Kenjutsu practitioner, i agree with you.
It would have been better to find an experienced dual wield fighter to use the japanese swords
5 cents that's a whole dollar dude. But good feedback lol
In a way, I agree with you, though, in the description, it does say that this is an experiment and that the guy has experience with European weapons, so I can't fault him fully.
As somebody who doesn't really know anything about Japanese weapons, I would agree with some of what you're saying, especially since he's not using the shorter sword like the other guy is using the parrying dagger.
But kendo is a sport far removed from kenjutsu in a lot of ways..this is like telling someone how to drive a car for the first time yet you only drive a motorbike. Let's not forget Musashi's 2 sword style quite potentially was developed upon seeing western rapier and dagger combat which was a common setup at the time. Finally against a rapier. Standing almost upright leaves a lot of your body as a target which the rapier can easily counter. You describe combat against another japanese sword, not something as nimble as a rapier. In this situation you need to adapt, not follow the books if it would get you killed against something they weren't written in mind with.
The Rapier does have quite and edge (no pun intended) simply do to the mechanics of slashing weapons. The Katana can only attack in roughly 9 zones of attack due to the nature of slashing based weapons. This greatly allows the Rapier to limit down the areas of focus.
The katana on the other hand has to worry about attacks from every which way since a rapier, being a decent cutter AND a powerful piercer can attack from many different areas. Furthermore, the length of the Katana does make it more.awkward to try and stab quick stabs
+Yuki Covian You realize the katana can and does thrust, right? Its certainly not a point focused weapon, but tsuki from chudan no kamae is kind of a base level threat in itto.
Yeah, but it's not gonna be very good at it, both in terms of damage done and speed/control/power. The weights wrong if you want to challenge the rapier on it, as rapier stances tend to keep the body back some, and good at leaning back to avoid thrusts
Brian Wright that is actually one of the attack zones. Straight out. The katana though cannot pierce effectively from odd angles though. Not without extreme televising.
Nobody is arguing that a katana is better at the thrust than a rapier. However I'd put my money on the katana for more serious wounds with a thrust. Given its a two handed weapon and (typically) has a larger tip. Speed I would be surprised if its much different. Rapiers are actually quite heavy weapons. Real advantages of rapier are reach and control. Katanas are quite short weapons and a two handed grip reduces thrusting range (though they are thrust one handed at times). The straight blade and center of mass of the rapier certainly would lend itself to changing lines of attack more quickly. I have a fair amount of experience both ways. 2dan in kendo, about 10 years in epee, and some hema rapier thrown in for a few years. (double wide epees and schlager blades when I was doing it.)
Rapiers are not decent cutters. They're bad cutters. If you rank swords based on their cutting ability, the rapier would be down near the bottom of the list.
There is a huge difference between this and the single katana vs. rapier video you made. It seems that the shoto does a very good job of negating the distance advantage of the rapier.
I was wondering about this nittoryu style being different from the kendo matches I've seen, where the practitioner usually leads with the off-hand wakizashi and keeps the katana held high ready for a strike. You can really see the length difference between the katana and the rapier, but the katana seems to be much faster.
Very nice fight, thanks for sharing Nick. It would be interesting to see sidesword (and dagger) vs. katana. I read somewhere that the Portuguese mariners created havoc in sword fights (not counting the devastating effect of the matchlock muskets, of course) when they met Japanese opposition. :)
Why didn't your opponent fight more on the outside? He was taller and had the longer weapon. Why didn't he make use of his reach advantage? As a rapier guy I would never try to brawl with a katana guy because the katana guy is simply faster. I would try to fight on the outside, with some distance between myself and the opponent. What is your opinion on that topic?
EDIT: I just watched the video again. The rapier guy wasn't brawling that much, he just got hit by some good counter attacks.
+Timmy Turner No, a katana isn't faster; Nick is simply faster than Tom. The rapier's reach advantage often manifests through really fast thrusts (because the rapierist doesn't need to move as far) and you did see Nick getting hit a few times because he simply couldn't move fast enough to parry it.
+Robert R different types of speed I think. Obviously that rapier tip can dart around with the flick of a wrist but the actual thrust from a rapier is definately slower than a rotation cut (from the katana) from the wrist because you can move your hand quicker than you can move your arm or legs
hotsteamypudding Possibly if you did a stopwatch measurement against a punching bag that'd be the case. But in combat with a real opponent at the correct distance, a rapier thrust is faster than the cuts of a katana (or any other sword for that matter).
I think the rapier is quicker at specific things - its length allows it to quickly and unpredictably (unpredictably is the main issue) move the tip around so that anticipating the thrust is difficult and cuts are generally easy to guard because a line is easier to guard than a point - combine this with the fact that the first to attack often does succeed and its clear where the rapiers advantage lays but once the range has been closed the rapier is a slow and fairly clumsy weapon - its so long that once the rapier has been crossed there isnt much they can do (people move backwards much slower than people move forwards) - hence being paired with the main-gauche.
Actually I would like to see fights like that in films or videogames. The fact that it looks like real fight from really experimented fighter make it look very stylish !
Do yall ever do polearm fencing? If so could you ever show them? Or maybe some montante, and other greatsword styles being used against different weapons?
+AUTOBOTGJB1997 We do sometimes do poleaxe. The problem is it is a weapon really intended for armoured combat, and that is a different story altogether. What we really need are halberds and partizans, the sort of renaissance weapons used without armour or in half armours. Several companies are developing useful products for this right now, so we will do so when we can.
As for montante. Yes we will get more videos of that soon,
Miyamoto Musashi is correct i know I'm stating the obvious. I like that he just let him attack with the rapier and hit his hand nearly every time. It really is an art form.
u kno in fire emblem fates,
wakizashi are meant to be thrown LMAO
LOL!!! good to know
Fates is like, the worst FE game. Also, WHY WOULD YOU THROW A KATANA.
@@themitochondriaisthepowerh9177 A wakizashi is not a katana. A katana is a katana. Wakizashi could in certain situations be used as a throwing knife. However, I agree that FE Fates was bad.
Wow. What a great video. I practise kali and use Espada y daga quite a lot. What I found very interesting is that the way we use it seems to have more in common with the katana and wakizashi then the rapier and dagger as shown here. Due to the lack of quillion on the filipino Espada which makes binding techniques unadvisable, also there is a heavy emphasis on cutting with the Espada and thrusting/parrying with the dagger. Its great to see these two different but similar weapon sets used against each other.
Thankyou for sharing.
I don't have a damn idea about sword techniques and stuff but damn man, this is cool
Teh Ketana wuz teh best sord evur if wer reel it wud cut thru raper liek butter
+YRUThinkn That was sarcasm, by the way.
couldn't tell
Kappa
+Tdragonkid this is the internet, there are stupid people in this world...
katana is best coz i got 1 on my mastercheef halo 3
A real katana could definitely break a (clamped down) rapier, due to one being a war weapon and the other a civilian one.
Rapier > Everything else
Fisher Sam Fisher Honestly if you have 2 people of equal skill using a Katana and Rapier there is probably about a 50/50 chance of winning for both either Katana guy is gonna parry the rapier away close in and eviscerate the Rapier guy or Katana guy is gonna fuck up said parry and get scewered.
spear : hi rapier XD
Fisher Sam Fisher a rapier can't even pearce through a chainmail tho
This allmost reproduces some alleged encounters between Portuguese and Japanese fencers. It seems that Miyamoto Musashi learned the lesson well and started using two blades instead of one.
+pippohispano He didn't use "two instead of one". HyoHo Niten Ichi Ryu, consists of short sword vs. long sword, long sword vs. long sword, as well as both long and short sword. Musashi actually used a wooden sword (Bokuto) to kill a number of his opponents.
Nick kinda used the Katana & Wakizashi like Escrema stick fighting. Two handed weapon wielding has a person using similar blocks and strikes. The rapier would have to be more aggressive in thrusting for a solid piercing kill because once deflected or retracted after even a partial strike the Katana hacks off the sword hand arm or head neck of the rapier wielder, viewing the results.
Dark Souls R1 spam joke.
La lucha con katana y wakizashi no es más que una mala copia del estilo portugues del original , Ropera y vizcaina Español . Hasta que no vieron a un portugues usar 2 armas a los brillantes samurais nunca se les ocurrió .
Mira por Miyamoto Musashi : Niten Ichi Ryu. Es una escuela de Kenjutsu muy antigua que use Katana y Wakizashi, no es una mala copia. Pero el chico en el video no tiene nada de este escuela, verdad.
@@zyriab5797
De hecho Musashi empezó a usar ambas armas luego de ver un duelo europeo, si es una copia del estilo portugués/español.
@@germanolivares7072 De done tienes esta información ? En su libro, habla de su estilo, dice que piensas que si los Kami lo han dado dos manos es para usar dos sabres.
La táctica "espada y daga" de la península ibérica es diferente del Niten, la sola semejanza entre las dos táctica es el uso de dos armas (la mas pequeña en la secundaria mano) y que la mano débil tiene un uso mas defensivo; pero no hay fuente de Miyamoto Musashi diciendo que ha desarrollado su táctica basada en la táctica Española/Portuguesa de este tiempo.
Sino, es un hipótesis viable, son dos tácticas contemporáneas y Miyamoto ha viajado mucho en su País y desarrollado su arte con mucho libertad, por este tiempo. Quizás ha visto un duelo o, menos dramático, escuchado historias, visto grabados, o un manual ibérico de pelea.
TL;DR: No es improbable pero no hay fuente viable que dice esto. Es una suposición de su parte.
Paz
Really dispells a lot of myths. Boy thouse rapiers are fast. I also believe that the daggers used were designed to catch and break the opponents swords with grooves. Admire the katana but new respect for the rapier. Thank you both and the recording staff.
My favorite armed fighting style Niten Ichi Ryu.
Nick I just started a sparring club for mixed fencing, heavy influenced by your work. Its called the Duelling Grounds. Just wanted to say. Those training katana hurt like hell, deffo wearing armour for them.
ive never seen a dual wielding form like the guy with the wakizashi used. ive only been trained to use flourentine. can somebody educate me on this?
the guy on the left didn't want to wear the shoulder straps for his pants. I fence and that is so relatable, they slip off your shoulders and down your arm.
Oh, it would be super nice to ha a tally of the hits. The duel is so fast and I'm to inexperienced to see who got the hit.
Great video. What were they using for the Japanese blades?
Cold Steel bokkens. They are on the light end of the historical scale and far from perfect. Will be upgraded to Black Fencer made ones soon and they will be much more realistic.
Great Vid...Thx
What is that technique, where Katana guy is holding his blades crossed over each-other? Is it a historical thing?
the rapier is a good, long weapon but its lunges leave the user open for attack which is why the dagger may be a good counter for the weapon
It's almost like having two weapons of any substantial length means they get tangled up. Not only does the rapier have better reach, but the dagger is out of the way, and the wakazashi is in the way.
Should had used the dagger for defence and measuring. If the dagger touches the enemys sword, it means the rapier could penetrate/slide through.
Bro katana mans block game is actually on point for most of this. Also what is the point of the dagger since it's to small to be used at range and probably won't help on D?
Where can you find this sorta equipment
Given the reach advantage of a rapier, with a dagger to cover things up close, what strategies can be employed by the other side? I was thinking striking aside the raper with the wakazashi then thrusting with the katana, given it's reach advantage over the dagger?
What else is there?
That is one method, and it was used in the video. But largely the best method is to fight in a middling distance and make extensive use of the cut with the katana whilst the wakazashi parries the rapier. I say middling in this case, if we assume the widest distance is that of the rapier reach, and the narrowest is the dagger thrust. In between those is a distance at which the rapier and dagger user has a weakness.
This is soooo cool! But is sooo hard to see what lands and what doesn't
this is very cool. is that katana a bit on the short side though?
Nope, the sizes of katanas have been blown out of proportion by pop culture. The trainer in this video has a 30" blade, which in Japanese culture would be typical for a 5'9"-5'11" user approx, whereas the user in this video is 5' 7". They were very short swords even in scale to their user.
This was interesting. I dont practice any sword fighting, just a general sword fanatic but even I could see that the considerably longer and lighter blade of rapier really put the katana in disadvantage, forcing him to fight defensively. But still it was really even match especially at the beginning. I loved this video.
*edit* Hell, it would have been even worse for the katana wielder if the blade was more typical size, 27"-29". He had couple of extra inches to play with. :)