Making forging dies for the guillotine tool - blacksmithing tools
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- čas přidán 8. 06. 2018
- We have looked at what a guillotine tool is and how to use one, we have looked at making a guillotine tool and even looked at the smithin magician. Today lets make the forging dies that go into the guillotine tool
The Guillotine tool from Jerry can be seen at www.ebay.com/itm/Blacksmith-G...
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I like the videos that you make long, see that you made 40-50 minutes long videos in the old days.
Love the sound of the crickets
Thanks for this; I really appreciate the long format videos that don’t skip any steps. Many other youtubers are more interested in showing off their results than in explaining their process.
I am glad it helps. I do skip a fair amount though, otherwise this would have been a 4 hour video.
I don't think I will ever have enough jigs and fixtures. Thanks bud. Tool making is a first must for all of us !
It all comes down to storage space
Have been using Jerry's guillotine tool for over a year and am very happy with it. Just bought the steel to make more dies today, and had the good sense to consult your video library before starting, and this video saved me from making some dumb mistakes and showed me better ways to make them than I had thought of. As always, thanks for your contributions to the craft!
..You Sir are a milling machine !! Thanks for this John, it has taught me a lot...!!
Same here John.
I like building stuff like that. Making my own tools.
The guillotine tool is amazing it make the project soo much easier to do and wow really nice shoulders. Much nicer then a spring tool. Thx John. U da man
LOL.
Thanks Blacksmith Sensei ( teacher :)
The more I learn , the more I realise , “ The more there is ,to learn “ :)
I think these guillotine tool videos are my favorite so far! Awesome!
Because of this video, I bought one of Jerry's tools sold on eBay. Easy guy to work with and I like the tool. Although it comes with 1/2" by 2" A36 steel dies, I like the fact that I can add a spacer and use 3/4 X 2 inch 4140 to make dies. Makes it much more flexible to accumulate sets of dies for different projects. Got the bolted on hardy shank so that I can easily remove it and use in the vise. So far I am pretty impressed. Thanks for all the videos.
Fantastic little project, can be done in a basic shop with minimal tools and such a handy tool for any blacksmith.
I have had my unassembled Smithing Magician for about 3 years now. I dragged my feet because of the advantage of welding some of the parts and I just didn't have a welder I liked. I now have decent TIG welder (and you can't make me go back!) so it's time to get that guillotine running!
Thanks John, a mate is sourcing some free truck spring leaves for me, so will make the guillotine to suit.
GOT MINE FROM WATCHING THIS VID AND IT IS VERY WELL MADE
My son and I are just starting to play around with blacksmithing, and not a lot of money. I really enjoyed this John, I really thank you for your videos they are such a help!
Glad it was helpful!
I've followed you a long time now John, and this video was one of the best. Just happens I was about to make some dies, for my Cloverdale, but you saved my butt on a couple of them. Thanks for the education!
Now you've got me wanting to cobble together a guillotine tool using the rail plates & spikes I have... 🤔🤔
I made my guillotine tool to suit dies made from grader cutting edge that I flattened with my tyre hammer. That stuff is very tough and works great!
Thanks for the very thorough explanation on the dies. Going to take a shot at the tool and a set of die for it.
Thank you John, a very informative information on guillotine die making. Take it easy in the heat there my friend! Drink regularly remember fluids are key to life. Thanks bro Anthony Kent
I only ran the forge long enough yesterday to heat that piece of pipe for the opening shot
Thanks, John for another awesome teaching video.
Truly a great project. Thanks John.
Fabulous!!! Thank you B.B.F!
Rewatching this after making my first guillotine tool, for inspiration for dies. Forgotten how much darn care to the sound you paid (turning mic off for grinder, filling etc) you really do make some darn awesome videos. Even better in re watching.
Another great video you make it look easy Thx John ....Paul..
Very informative video as always. Thanks for the great information and demonstrations.
Thanks for the review John. Great video, and I particularly liked your methods for making cut off dies. Jerry
Thank you for all the work you put into your very helpful videos.
Just made my first guillotine tool including butchering dies, using my new Millermatic 211. Dies are 2'' x 3/4". Thanks for the outstanding instruction! Really enjoy your channel.
You are the magician!
Thanks, John!
Dave
Very useful! I'll start on the butcher today and post it on the FB group. I also made some kind of wood screw I posted the result on the FB group. Thanks for another very great video.
I agree with Ol James. You do very nice work just as nice as a milling machine.
As always good info and process
I have a little Atlas Horizontal mill that I use very little and need to practice with it. I think the cutoff tool will be perfect for it. As always, thanks!
Very nice explanation John. In my opinion, what makes you a good teacher, is probably that you show others what you would like to be shown, making what you teach a natural thing. You make these tutorials easy to understand. Thanks for time you put into them.
I am glad it helps
Muito obrigado pelos enssinamentos ...sou seu fã
Learned bunches.
I have a set of cut off dies that I made with hacksaw and file only. It works, but it's a slow method. I'll try the angle grinder on the set (tenoning) I'm working on now. This was a very helpful video for me.
Would love to make one of these.
I have one of Jerry's guillotine tools, it's very well made and he'll add a hardy shank for a nominal fee in whatever size you request. He's also super easy to work with, the tool I bought came with flat, fuller and an unfinished die, I had him make a set of butchers for it for an additional $9. Highly recommend him!
Excellent John, a simple slide and clamp set up you could use with your chop saw could be useful for the cut off die!
With the tenoning tool you could cut it first and then drill the appropriate size hole. If you find your drill press vice isn't powerful enough to hold the two halves together then drop a couple of light tack welds on the halves before drilling then grind them off when you do the rework.
Just a thought on making the cut off die much easier - If you want a 2" x 3/4" die, use a piece of 1 1/2" x 3/4" and two 1/4" x 3/4" for the sides. Just make your 30 degree cut and weld the 1/4" thick strips on the sides, making sure to groove for the weld (or drill and plug weld) and grind flush. Easy peasy. The same technique could be used for tenoning dies as well (in the style of those Smithing Magician dies). One could drill and tap countersunk screws to connect the pieces, but that's a lot of horsing around too.
That would probably work out
I was thinking the same thing
I bought mine from yesteryear Forge which is great but the tooling is all soft steel so I need to make a bunch more so thank you for this video.I'm heading to the steel store today probably. Damn you John, you'r about to get me in trouble with my woman. 🤣 I'm about to spend some money
Sorry about that. 😜
Black Bear Forge no you're not and I'm not either. Hehe 😉 bruises heal
Very useful video.
You could try making mild steel tougher by heating with a carbon compound like I saw on Clickspring's video.
May I suggest an alternative method for the tenon tool. Make the cut first.Then securely clamp or tack weld the 2 pieces together and centre punch on the join. Drill the required diameter and then flare the sides. Not only will this ensure the required diameter is achieved, but also that the 2 halves are identical.
Another great vid btw :)
Very useful video. Thanks again. You're filleing didn't squeak at all. I didn't have even one shudder from the filleing. I can tell the steel is softened, and the larger stock makes a big difference also. I'm sure 1/4 x 1 would scream. Thanks for all the good Steele type info also.
I am trying to remove the microphone and set it in something to muffle the sound when filing or grinding. But sometimes i forget to go and get it again.
You could use a bench grinder especially if you have one with a one inch wheel on it
John, the Smithin Magician is still available at blacksmithsupply.com along with several dies and blanks. It's where I got mine from. There is another pre-made guillotine tool that I didn't see among your collection available from blacksmithdepot.com as well that looks pretty hardy, but I've never tried it.
Been following you ever since I took my first blacksmithing class. Thanks for the info. Just ordered a Smithin Magician and some die blanks. Could you provide some dimensions and specifics for the 4 piece tennoning dies? I have a friend with a mill who's willing to mill some dies but we need some dimensions.
Looks like they took off the page in Ebay...time to find someone else..great video also
I would like the names of several places where I came obtain name of magazines and or company’s where I can buy black smith tools. Realize I asking a lot but what ever you can do would be much appreciated. Thanks I am learning so much. Take care. Mert
Hi John, what is the butcher angled at? Looks about 20 degrees off horizontal. Thanks for the vids, learning lots. Steve west aust.
Oops should have waited to watch whole video, got it thanks
3:12 I assume it should be a trivial matter to cut 2 pairs of 1/8" x 2" flat stock shims to sandwich the 1/2"x 2" fuller to adapt it for use in the 3/4" guillotine. For that matter you could also countersink a pair of holes in the flats and superglue a few 1/4" tall rare earth magnets that sit flush ... that'd make the shims hands free and removeable for use with any 1/2" set. It should definitely on the bottom pair ... the top pair might need a little more gripforce. Assuming they're magnetically compatible of course.
Are you going to make a video on the hardening and tempering of these 4140 dies and potential problems doing this size steel and hardening a batch of dies together?
I may at some point. The only big issue is making sure you have adequate soak times to heat all of the way through the material.
John. How exactly did you harden these rough cut dyes?
You mentioned in one of your other videos about using quality hack saw blades. What are the better brands? Much thanks for great content !
I like the Sarrett blades, but Lenox blades are also very good. In general you get what you pay for
Can you make vertical v shape die for katana
If you make please upload the video with practical
John that really helps me, I just started to make my dies and did not know where to start. I have one question on the top die, I saw in a book I have they weld a flat square piece on where the hammer will strike to protect the die from mushrooming. Do you think this is a good idea? I am using mild steel to start as it is what I have and easier to work with. Thank You great video.
That can help out and does allow the striking surface to be replaced.
whats the exact angle on the butcher die
So I really like the "new" tenoning dye idea with pins, but I'm wondering how you stop the pins from becoming a blind rivet? i.e mushrooming at the base.
Personally its a cost saving thing as the only hardening steels In those dimensions can get are fairly expensive. pins in one dye makes it very multi functional.
Awsome video, I'm loving the guillotine videos, said it before but been excitedly waiting for these for months.
Also I still say your efforts turning off the mic for the power tools is really pleasant to watch/listen. Thanks so much. (At some point ill stop saying this, promise)
I too wonder about the pins getting stuck, or just lost. They would have to be hardened pins. Of course you quit hammering once the top die contacts the pins
Thats a good point, they are stops and not intended to pound on. So possibly the largest pins you can comfortably fit in your die with a loosish fit and hardened. It be hit if the stops gave that lovely pinging ring you get from some hardened steels when they contact, like a "you've arrived" bell lol
Just had a really good idea instead of pins. Cut two half inch wide notches in a square bottom dye. The put long slim inserts into the tool loose. The should be longer than the notches in the bottom dye, by the size you want your tenon. Fairly simple to cut the bottom die and you can easily switch out the inserts to different sizes.
Heres a diagram that might explain better.
docs.google.com/drawings/d/15IJoqOd7ed_92h9fQIDFRDd-tkSebErA2WAfRPtbTBo/edit?usp=sharing
John, on your " 4 pieces gets 8 combinations " dies, what are the depths on each top and bottom die? Making my own set and can't seem to get my head wrapped around it right.
I will try to remember to measure those this week
I’m new to buying and working with tool steel. Do you buy annealed 4140 and then heat treat and temper it after the dies are made?
I prefer to start with annealed stock then harden once the tool is shapped
Is it common when you are first getting into blacksmithing to remove your steel from the forge before it is hot enough to work properly
John, thanks, now I will tackle the cut off die. I also learned something on the layout of the tenon die. Do you temper the dies as well? Also last question, what brand fiber wheel are you using on the chop saw? I have decent saw but have not found a decent wheel, yours seems to cut pretty fast.
I am glad it helped. I do harden and temper my dies based on what steel they are made from. I have no idea what the brand name on the wheel is. I just order them from McMaster Carr online. I will try to look today.
Thanks...
How about case-hardening or carburizing the forming ends of your dies?
Thats certainly an option
What kind of blade did you use on the bandsaw to cut the 4140? (teeth per inch and size)
Probably 14 tpi, but I don't change blades for any given task. Its just the same one thats been on the saw for a few years now
Can you post a video on how you heat treat 4140?
I have done numerous videos that show the heat treating of 4140. Look for some of the hammer forging videos, I often use 4140 for those.
Just a quick question can you use leaf springs for dies
Yes, so long as you can find spring the right size without the taper
@@BlackBearForge thank you for your help
What kind of bandsaw blades do you use for cutting 4140? I keep wiping out my bandsaw blades on tool steels.
I actually cut most of my alloy and tool steels on an abrasive saw to save blades.
@@BlackBearForge Is that a bandsaw blade with diamond bits on the cutting edge?
Are they still available anywhere?
Yes, check places like Cloverdale forge and Blacksmith Supply
Hi John I made one of these the other day, and today Sat 11-5-19 I made some butcher one's for it, but I am having such trouble trying to get the ends to match up be straight, I don't have fancy belt sanders only cheap one's and they don't seem to help, I have an angle grinder, but I find it hard with a flap wheel to get things straight, any Idea's mate.????
A hard disc on the grinder might be better. Otherwise a file might be needed. the good news is that they work pretty well even if not perfect.
@@BlackBearForge Yeah thanks John, did get the hard disc on the grinder and a lot of filing and then a straight bit of wood and sandpaper seemed to come out good.
Instead of filing with the round file to the size you need after cutting the die, how about clamping it together and ream the space with the size drill you want?
Drilling tends to leave sharp edges that need to be cleaned up with a file.
I can't find anyone in my area to supply tool steel in the sizes you are using to make dies. Can I make dies with smaller pieces of tool steel welded to larger mild steel pieces? Specifically the striking surfaces and work surfaces?
You can certainly weld a hard face to mild steel. You can also mail order tool steels, that is what I have to do. I generally buy from McMaster Carr, but depending on your location there may be better sources to order from.
Black Bear Forge Thank you for getting back to me wih that. Been watching your videos on forge welding in anticipation of die making. Excellent videos, John.
Hey bud. I made a Guillotine tool and dies for it. The dies are Mae of 4140. My question is on tempering. McMaster Carr doesn’t have anything on 4140 noir does the heat treaters app after quenching in warm oil I put them in the toaster oven at 450 for an hour and then 30 minutes. Does the double temper help. And do you think that is good for the dies. Or do I need to get them hotter like 550 - 600
That should be good to use. I am always surprised at how little tempering information is provided. There is a chart paet way down this page www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/heat-treating-4140.php
Perfect. John. Thank you.
7:11 ... Why not just take some narrower stock cut the shallow cut off angle on it and weld some 1/4" thick stock to the sides to make the channel? No milling machine needed and the width would be the same
You could also use a chisel to hog out that cutoff die. While not as quick as the angle grinder, it's probably a little more accessible to the bare beginner. Besides, chisel work is probably an undervalued (and underused) blacksmith skill.
That would be a valid approach. But I doubt that this tool would be worth the trouble. but you are right, chisels are under appreciated.
Actually more like 33 degrees for 3/4” x 1-1/8”. For 30 degrees and 3/4” material the dimension would be 1.3”.
Thumbs up for the video.
“Pedantic” is an insulting word used to describe someone who annoys others by correcting small errors, caring too much about minor details, or emphasizing their own expertise especially in some narrow or boring topic.
I do not agree with the measuring this time. For a 30 degree angle you would want the slant line to be twice the width of your material. Taking the straight length to be one and a half times the width gives me an angle of about 34 degrees.
I might not *see* the difference though. Just triggered from 'exact' :)
Could be. Thats the trouble with relying on memory when you get older.
30 60 90 triangle- Hypotenuse is 2 times the base . It's half an equilateral triangle. you are correct sir
Great video. But actually that angle by construction is not exactly 30 degrees. It's approximately 33.69 degrees. For 30 degrees one side is 1.732 times larger. However easy way to calculate 30 degrees is the diagonal is twice the shorter side. So you can set combination square to twice the thickness (3/4) so inch and a half, then lay corner of square on corner or 3/4 side the rotate square to where it hits the other side at one and a half inches and draw the line. That would be exactly 30 degrees