(1822) Choosing a Small Safe (Part 1)
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- čas přidán 7. 06. 2024
- Video 1822 is part 1 of a 3-part series where I'll discuss how to choose the right safe for your home. I'll discuss how to define your needs, narrow down your choices, and what design elements to look for when buying a quality safe.
Part 1: • (1822) Choosing a Smal...
Part 2: • (1826) Choosing a Smal...
Part 3: • (1830) Choosing a Smal...
The safe in the video is an MSafe Model PSB 350. You can find it on the manufacturer's site here: msafes.com/shop/fire-protecti...
Like this video? Subscribe here: czcams.com/users/bosnianb...
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This is awesome Bill. I have spent countless hours looking at different safes. For me it would be something like these to which they are somewhat mobile. And there's a LOT of confusion when shopping online. This will help me and countless others. Outstanding work. Thank you very much
Bill, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. May seem like a small ripple now but there's no telling how many youth you will inspire for the next several decades or until locks completely change from what we know them as. Thank you and your entire community.
Thank you for this video. I have been doing some research for a small safe and it is incredible the amount of crappy ones that are out there flooding the market. I truly appreciate you going through the different features and clearing the fog that the internet creates on what i thought was the simple task of buying a home safe. I have placed my order with Msafe after watching all three parts of this series. Thank you once again.
Very glad you're doing these reviews! I will look forward to your take on the other safes.
Awesome video and great explanation on the safe! I love safes and can't wait till next week! Keep up the great work Bill. Thank You!!!
Excellent walk through, sir. And a very generous Christmas gift for someone!
Send me one for Christmas
I just heard that you are retiring. I am both sad and happy for you also. Your videos showing the junk and the best locks, safes, etc definitely helped me make better choices when shopping. I wish you all the best good sir. Thank you for all you have done for CZcams and the lock picking community.
Great video, as always. Looking forward to the rest of the series.
Excellent review and details about this cool little safe. Looking forward to the other parts of this series! Thanks!
Very thorough and well done review Bill! Looking forward to the next installment 👍🏻👍🏻
I think a lot of people make the mistake of not bolting the safe down because if you can get it to your own garage it's all over.
You're right, and I forgot to mention that in the video. The resistance ratings of all safes include them being bolted down - and that is an important detail that I'll mention in the next video. Bolting it down in the corner of a closet deprives the thief working space to swing impact tools. Try to imagine trying to swing a fire axe while kneeling inside your closet...
@Marlinchen Check if there is a known price for fixing those half inch holes and set aside the money up front.
@Marlinchen I would ask if I could drill holes for a motorbike anchor, and use those holes instead.
Marlinchen don’t ask, just plan to have it fixed when you are planning to move and they’ll never know. 🤷♂️
It’s a simple solution that provides a huge increase in physical security. That’s why I made a similar recommendation on BB’s previous video on the large gun safe. If you carefully pick your location, you can amplify this by using existing walls to limit access and leverage positions. That is, nobody can use a 6’ pry bar if your safe is in a corner. Not without taking down a wall. You can also immediately protect (at least) two attack surfaces (commonly the back and the bottom) by bolting it down. I’ll take a 1/3 reduction any day.
Hey Bill! Just heard of your retirement from CZcams. Although I never managed to really get into the Locksport, your videos always were entertaining and I learned a lot about locks and security. Used this series here to pick a safe for my home and didn't get disappointed.
Wish you the very best, enjoy your free time with the family!
Excellent review Bill. Thank you.
Great video Bill! Safes are one of the most interesting things to look at
Wow, this video was posted with perfect timing. I was just getting started shopping for a safe, and my first thought was to check what the locksport youtubers had written off as junk. I'll watch through this series before deciding on anything.
You’re a wise person
REally worth while video. Would like to see more videos like this for the other types of locks out there.
There's a difference between "a reasonable price" and "dirt cheap". Not only do you get what you pay for, but you don't get what you don't pay for.
I live fairly close an honestly if I won I would be more excited just to meet Bill and put a face to the voice I've been watching for the past 3 years. That alone would make my Christmas (or a tour of the locklab) lol. Merry Christmas Bill!
Thanks Bill for the great walk through on what to look for on a home safe. Suggestions on the best way to secure one in a wood-framed house? I bet a lot of people will put one of these in their master bedroom, even though that's one of the worst places to do so (burglary-wise).
This is great. I have been looking for a safe and looking to get one after the holidays.
That bolt is a concrete anchor. Place safe in a corner closet with concrete floor bolted down.
Great, now I'll just have to find a house with fuckin concrete flooring 😂 sounds third world
Informative video. Nice change of pace too.
I may be late to the party but like and appreciate what I have seen so far. I hope all is well with you and your family and thank you for all you have shared.
Very helpful information! Thank you for the thorough walkthrough.
Excellent information on build quality and what you get for your money.
Could you do a video based on the recommended house locks you have on the locklab website, would love some detailed thoughts and explanations on why they got approved in particular.
I just moved into my first apartment yesterday and was thinking about this subject. Timing could not be any better for me!
Same.
Also, thank you for showing the inside of the door. Truth be told, I was a little disappointed that you didn't do that with the gun safe you bought, but I suppose you wanted to keep your warranty on that one, which is completely understandable. An idea for future videos - Upgrade the security inside the door. I have done that with the two safes that I own. The first one was just some extra reinforcement in the door, adding a Medeco lock as a secondary locking mechanism, and adding more gypsum to the door as fireproofing because the stock fireproofing was pathetic. The second safe was a complete rebuild/repurposing of a gun safe. I sanded and repainted the exterior, removed all of the interior, bolted it to three surfaces (floor, and two walls in a corner), added steel plating and angle iron to the interior, added new gypsum, and finished the interior with walnut and maple surfaces and shelves. Totally overkill, and totally worth it. I've thought about doing it as a business, but I'm not sure if there's a market for it.
I don't know if there is a market for it either, but it sounds very nice!
Fantastically useful. Thanks for this!
Great review, you are amazing Bill. Thank you. 👍🏻
Thank you so very much for doing this!
Water protection is very important too.
well... never thought i'd learn about safes today
thank you :)
Thank you Bill for all the great videos. Really enjoyed the series on small safes you did. Have a happy retirement!
Great review
Thanks for the video, i feel safe now 😉👍
Thanks for the info!!!
That's a great breakdown on all the nuances of safes. Another great review.
You prolly dont care but does any of you know of a method to get back into an instagram account?
I was stupid lost my password. I appreciate any assistance you can offer me
@Ronin Graysen Instablaster ;)
@Phillip Derek Thanks for your reply. I found the site thru google and im in the hacking process now.
Takes a while so I will reply here later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
@Phillip Derek it did the trick and I finally got access to my account again. I am so happy!
Thank you so much you saved my account :D
@Ronin Graysen no problem =)
Excellent review
Thank you for such great information, sir.
You taught me more about safes in a few minutes that’s I wish I knew
This is the first BB video that used a "safe word". lol Very informative.
Ordered this safe after watching. Note that prices have gone up. Thank you for the high quality video.
Thank you for your business.
That's was a very informative vid Bill. The trouble with any safe is 'That's where the treasure is' best to use your imagination when it comes to 'hiding valuables and money ' 👍
Really useful information
Great review and very comprehensive.
And very generous an offer to drive 50 miles to drop off or meet the winner.
👍🏻
Thanks for the information
Thank you. Very reasonable.
I cant wait to see whats next.
Great video, thanks for the heads up on the multi pick 10% off
Sound looking safe
Bought a Burg Wacter Diplomat off eBay five years ago. Based largely on watching Bill struggle like mad with Burg stuff. (Sorry Bill :)) Caught y'all napping on the auction, and got it for way less that it was worth. I've been very pleased with it.
FYI, that warranty sticker is useless, the Magnusson Moss warranty act does not allow for companies to void your warranty if a sticker is broken.
Excellent stuff. I went for something with a longer fire rating. Mostly because I am far more worried about fire/flood than I am someone coming into my house with tools. The annoying part, which I assume is the next video, is everyone just says "Bolt it to a cement slab". Great.... yah great.... if I wasn't worried about flood (I am), or wanted to go down to my basement every time I need to get in the safe (I don't) then, great plan. After a lot of reading and thinking, I got some good sized steel bits that took a good little while to cut to size with a decent chop saw and made a special shelf that could hide the metal and let the safe bolt to it. Need to waste time cutting that before its ever going through a door or window. Realistically though, a fire is more likely than a dude or two with a bag of tools. That didn't stop me from immediately opening the door and replacing the lock with a 4 wheel group 1 for.... reasons. Actually, I made a rookie mistake and didn't realize till I got home it had totally been manhandled in shipping and I didn't trust the lock, so rather than try to return the massive thing, I upgraded it. Your description of the common attack on the lock bolt actually perfectly explains the design of the relocker I found in mine. It wasn't clear what they were protecting against until now.
A word of caution,you cannot get fingerprints from hammered metal paint finish on a safe.I learned the hard way.
I remember the first burn box I made I used a sentry safe it work to well
Minor note - you are right not to trust stickers (14:20), but an S2-grade safe _has to_ have a class A or higher lock, otherwise it's not S2! Also note that class A is the least secure: there are three more lock grades (B, C, D) with increasing levels of security.
8.8 is actually the most common fastener grade at least here in Finland, that's what you get when you buy nuts and bolts by the weight at the local hardware store. The weaker ones are usually not marked, I don't think I've ever seen a bolt with grading marks lower than 8.8. There are two stronger grades, 10.9 and 12.9, those are used in demanding applications. The first number of the grading is the yield strength of the bolt, the second tells the ratio between yield point and breaking point. Still, 8.8 is no marshmallow either but they are the "standard" grade fastener these days.
Great video my friend very educational. 😎🌟⭐🌟⭐🌟😎
Lots of great info Bill. I'm keen to see the different types. 🍺😎🇦🇺
Would’ve liked to see the inside of the lock mechanism. Like, is it solenoid actuated and susceptible to bounce attacks? Is there a clutch that you can drill the body and force the bolt in? Is there a cam that can be wedged apart?
This lock DOES NOT have a solenoid locking mechanism. Please look into the lock certification that Bill mentioned for more information. Thank you for your interest.
Remember if it doesn't have a nut it's technically a screw... And the mounting bolts he showed are for concrete, the end expands for better anchoring.
I miss these videos Bill. I hope you are well.
Even though I have no need for a safe, I'm going to watch this video, learn something and enjoy the crap out of it! LOL
You'd be surprised how much stuff you have and how much it would all cost to buy it again. Keys, jewellery, electronics, hard drives, paperwork and receipts, etc. I would like to get a safe at some point, even if only for fire resistance.
I'm looking forward to when you get to the TL-15 / TL-30 (or EU equivalent) model.
That's an interesting thought - I don't think the standards are directly comparable, so I'm quite looking forward to seeing what it is!
Agreed, these aren't safes but instead RSC at best. TL is a much better product
The EU equivalent norm for those would be EN 1143-1 (from Grade 0 to Grade 7). The norm for these lighter safes is EN 14450 (as printed on the sticker on the door in the video), this norm only has S1 and S2 ratings.
I've been having trouble finding the video you did on the Stealth Gun Safe, any chance I could get a link?
Correction : The S1/S2 norm is only one of 2 EU norms for safe (EN-14450 in that case, the other is EN 1143-1). NEITHER specify anything about the value of the stored items. That is purely up to the country specific laws and the insurance company. EN-14450 is for individual safes. The only difference between S1 and S2 is that S2 requires double layers for the side, S1 only requires it for the door. 1143-1 is the norm for professional safes and safe rooms, it goes from 0 to 7, 0 being higher than S2.
Also, fire resistance is certified according to 1147-1, which I did not see on this particular safe, so you'd have to trust the manufacturer on this one.
I think if you are going to spend some money on a safe, specifically one with an electronic lock, you should get one without a proprietary lock. Those things break pretty regularly and getting one from the factory is usually harder than picking up a La Gard or a S&G and swapping it.
We provide customer support, service and parts. The locks are very reliable and do not break regularly. I would be very bad for business if they did. Our PFB1 Grade 1 line of safes takes a standard footprint lock, so an LG or S&G lock can be installed. They do cost more money and not everyone has the budget or need for that type of safe.
I want everything! I need a safe place to keep my grass seed collection!
You need a bigger one for your weed killer.
Ask LPL about his favourite herb ;)
@Bill, I disgree, there are a lot of nonbrick houses. You have to look at location but anything made of brick usually fails in the pacific rim.
Right off the bat, I would pick the one with the hidden hinge. Take care of being able to cut the hinge to get in.
With the boltwork securing the door on 3 sides and a dog on the 4th, the external hinges make little difference to security - plus the visible hinges seem much beefier than the hidden ones: I'd bet you that they have much stronger dogs inside too, since there is no need of the space for the hinges on the door side.
Thanks for the review -- I'm waiting to see your TX TR-60 x 6 Safe, ha, ha
You and me both! I think these 3 safes will be about it. I completely blew my budget on these... Any safe with TX or TR ratings are WELL out of my price range and overkill for 99.9% of homeowners.
@@bosnianbill I’d love to see M Safe cut you a check for your quality review, a lot of people commenting that they’re buying one of their products
@@johncage3025 Nice thought but I wouldn't accept it. I don't accept payment of any kind for reviews - not even the products, as I give them away at the end. It is the only way I can retain my independence and impartiality.
@@bosnianbill and that's the reason we trust you.
Thanks! 👍👍
Hi Bill, I've been breaking my head the last couple of weeks about how to get into my burgwachter pointsafe! Trying the non destructive route.. Got any tips?
Still love my mechanical S&G group II combo lock
And sometime in the near future I'll make a video showing you why you might want to upgrade to a digital lock...
Cool! ;) Thank you
@Juan Valdez If it offers any reassurance, I have a safe with an old (1999) LaGarde lock. In 21 years, the only thing it has ever needed has been a new 9V battery every 5-7 years (I'm on battery number 4).
Just a heads up Bill, those stickers 'warranty void if removed' are not enforceable in the US in most cases.
Those safes were not designed for the US market. Also, the company might argue that BB is an industry professional without normal consumer rights.
Any suggestions on what renters can do if landlords refuse to allow them to bolt safe to floor or wall? What other options do they have to secure the safe which do not in any way cause any structural damage?
The only thing in the keypad is wiring for the keypad (As generic as they come.) All the logic for reading (And the 5 Min reset) is in the inside electronics.
With the door being thin wouldn't it be easy to use a hole saw to acess the locking component ? With that said I guess you need to draw a line somewhere.
It probably is. The question is what is the material protecting it... if there is some cement with carbide balls in between the steel plates, you are going to have a jolly good time drilling in there.
that void warranty sticker is illegal in the USA. in some parts of the world, it can be inforces, but here in the USA, the sticker does not void the warranty.
That "high security lock" is still a solenoid lock, which will open just as easily as Sentry's etc. And bypassing the security via electronical means isn't impossible, it is not hardened against certain attacks. The actual box is very nicely done and finished.
Thank you for your compliment regarding our "box". With regard to that "high security lock" you are incorrect. There is no solenoid in this lock or safe. The lock is an ECBS Class A lock and must meet requirements and standards. Please go to www.ecb-s.com/ for more information.
Of course, but most people buying this safe are just trying to protect them self from a regular crackpipe joe
When you typed in the code you hear a motor spin. The lpl used a expensive spinning magnet on a drill to get around a lock the that before. Couldn't you use the same here?
Thanks for sharing.
Are you going to loan these to Deviant... after you review them ?
😉😁
What UL rating would ECBS S2 be equivalent to? It's hard for me to say but I think RSC 2/TL-10, It might even be X6 rated.
I can't really find TL-10 rated safes but the few physically comparable safes there are seem to have thinner composite walls but a supposedly high fire rating than the PSB MSafe.
Having an even harder time finding what the test standards are for EN 14450.
What's the difference between a screw & a bolt? Even engineers argue over that. Secondly, having hardenned bolts is great but they're only as strong as the thread they're tightened into
If I enter the giveaway if I win would you ship it if I paid for shipping?
I built a shelf above a drop ceiling that I put one of those cheapo fire boxes in that I just keep important documents and some gold in, nobody is going to go tearing your basement ceiling down when there are tvs to grab
WRT the electronics: There's no need for encryption. Your combination should be stored on the secure side, the keypad side should only be an input device. Literally just a keypad, no real circuitry.
The 9V backup pins are a possible weakness. If they don't have good filtering it might be possible to mount a voltage power analysis attack: if the processing of the combination entered isn't done carefully then it might take different amounts of power (or time) depending on whether any digits in it are correct. If that's the case, it's much, much easier to break. It shouldn't be the case, but there's far less focus on these sorts of attacks since they require decently expensive equipment (oscilloscope at a minimum) and quite a bit of skill. It might also open the way for glitch attacks, depending on the design.
The Tribe giveaway website says this prize has free shipping. Might want to change that.
MSAFE instructed me to avoid showing or discussing the bolt mechanism inside the PSB300 when I did a video on one of these. So I had to find a way to talk and say little. But these are good safes, no doubt about it. Unfortunately, people still wrote to ask if I knew of anything similar in the $200 range.
Well, I figured that since I bought them and they were MY property, I could open them up if I wanted to. It didn’t even occur to me to ask. So... I guess I’ll get sued again.
I hear you about people looking for cheap safes. Serious safe buyers have usually been robbed before and appreciate quality. Others consider safes an expense and cheap out. Then when they get ripped off complain that their $150 Sentry safe didn’t work very well.
@@bosnianbill Don't get me wrong. I'm glad you opened it up and got into the details. I'm just wishing I went ahead and did the same thing. You stole the thunder I never made, if that makes any sense.
I'm pretty sure I know who you talked with at MSAFE, and I know he's a good guy. I doubt you'll get sued. You did a good job. They've got to be okay with it.
@@HandgunSafe Given M-Safe seem to have been (positively) engaging with quite a few commenters, I think they are seeing this more as a marketing opportunity than as a security concern...
@@dlevi67 I certainly never heard of Msafes before Bill's video, so I'd say they got a boost. If it revealed shortcomings or outlined circumvention methods, then that would have been another story😉
8.8 bolts are pretty standard for European use. 12.9 is the stronger variant. Weaker than 8.8 and you will get something intended to fail. So the 8.8 isn't really that expensive.
Agreed. I frequently find 8.8 bolts in automotive applications, for a lot of general fasteners. Pretty common bolt rating.
Yup. 8.8 is minimum you can even get from stores in Finland.
@@TK-kd2hr Hot galvanised is usually 5.6 in K-Rauta etc and I've seen 4.6 allthread, so buyer beware.
8.8 is still a very strong bolt.
4.6 I would call your 'general-purpose' bolt and 8.8 as the defacto engineering bolt.
10.9 and 12.9 are normally used specifically where tensile strength is required.
8.8 is still a stronger bolt than A2 stainless.
@@thefamilyman I have never even seen 4.6 in any shop in Sweden. If they even are offered outside special cases like designated failure points in construction.
Is the 3-attempt lockout resistant to a power drain attack? It's not a practical attack in the vast majority of situations (unless combined with some other attack to narrow down the keyspace), but if the internal attempt counter can be cleared by resetting the power, it's several orders of magnitude less time to brute force it. Still quite long and probably requires automating the power switching and code entry to be even slightly viable, but it's worth checking to see if you can e.g. throw 30v into the 9v connector to get it to reboot and lose count, or drain the internal battery by shorting the 9v input.
Also: 50 miles from where? ETA: Ah hah, Virginia.
Could be - I have an old (1999) LaGard lock of a similar design, and it won't re-set the counter or timer with a power drain/removing the battery, but whether this has been implemented on this lock only the manufacturer knows. I haven't tried overvoltage; the lock is still in use.
On the other hand, I don't think the calculation done by Bill is correct: there are 111 million possible combinations (100 million 8-digit + 10 million 7-digit + 1 million 6-digit), so 37 million 3-tries. Assuming negligible time to input the 3 codes, 37 * 5 = 185 million minutes, which is far less than 5.6 million hours. It's still 3 million... or about 350 years of continuous attempts.
@@dlevi67 Does it have a separate battery to power a clock? How does it know when five minutes is up?
@@oasntet No extra battery - or at least, the LaGard one doesn't. All it does is to keep track of where it got to - let's say that you disconnect/short the battery 2 minutes into the waiting time, and reconnect it after 10 minutes. It will wait another 3 minutes (or in the case of my LaGard lock another 13 - but it's 6 digits code only!) before allowing another code entry.
Not difficult to implement: just keep the counter and the timer variable in flash memory, like the code. Three to eight more bytes of flash memory required.
Being made in Europe and using metric bolts, I would imagine that the plate steel also being metric - like 3 or 4 mm steal and other parts like the locking bolts being metric too.
Finding imperial engineering parts in a metric country is actually pretty tricky (except for pipe fittings and they're BSP too) I would imagine the manufacturer would use 3mm plate steal instead of trying to source 1/8" plate steel.
You are correct, everything is metric.
Expensive shipping: the only thing I can imagine would be worse to ship is a literal anvil.
as a fedex package handler we do see plenty of them lol
I reload ammo as a hobby, I have had to pay shipping on boxes of lead projectiles before. Usually isnt too bad on the wallet, just bad on the back. Thanks USPS flat rate!
my brother did a stint at fedex, i think the worst is the box of industrial magnets (The super big ones). Told me it took like 7 people to get it off the rails.
Hi,
I'm not sure about the keypad itself containing the PIN? It would be better if the external keypad just provides the electric connections from keys to the Controller and failover power supply, at least in my opinion :)
It would also reduce unneeded complexity like encryption. Having an intelligent keypad talking to the lock inside would result in increased attack surface. Power glitching/Analysis, Sniffing the communication (even if encrypted) and many more things ...
That's exactly how this one works. The keypad on this safe only provides input of digits for the combination. There is no intelligence or data available to be decrypted.
@@msafes1991 That's great news :)
So in case of a fire, if the keypad melted away, it could be replaced with a new one?
Might be tricky to reach to the Molex connector to detach/reattach ... Pogo Pins at the back of the keypad, reaching through the door would be nice, I think.
Just one curious question: are the keys connected like in any "normal" Keypad, in a matrix? The only other answer I'd accept would be: "The keypad uses RS232 or similar to tell the controller what keys have been punched in" :D
Either way, if someone replaces the keypad with some microcontroller, it would be a little bit "easier" to crack it, but caused by the 5min lockout delay it would still take ages xD
@@SystemX1983 Generally these keyboards are very dumb. At most they send a scan-code (like an old computer keyboard). All the protocols are in the lock inside the safe.
If the keyboard melts and the wires are lost you are generally in a bad place anyway - the electronics in the lock will have most likely gone too.
As a locksmith, I can say, this box is secure ONLY if correctly installed. If not, you need just to drill 4 holes, screwdriver and a hammer to punch bolts into the door.
Give those smaller ones a good bang on the top a split second before using the open handle.
BOOM!!! Open!
Bill I like the safe as seen on this video but I am looking for a large gun safe much larger then I can find on their website could you guide me in the right direction thanks
Wasn't there a large Stealth Gun safe showing at the beginning of the video?
Almost all “gun safes” are in reality residential security containers. If you want UL-TL certification or higher look at AMSEC. Sturdy Safes does not carry those rating but they are real safes that are tanks.
I am trying to find out how to change the code from the factory on this small safe
Bill, how well do they stand up to the bounce test? Well bounce open test?
The lightest one weighs 25 kg / 60 lbs. I wouldn't try to bounce it in a hurry.
I think that only works on the cheap small ones