My thoughts: Yes, it MAY have been a mistake by Toriyama. Toyotarou admitted to forgetting to draw the pupils on Beast Gohan in one chapter. But, is THIS a mistake by Toriyama or meant to ɓe because lightning is a key feature on SSJ2 that was drawn in the SAME chapters on Goku and Vegeta. It would be like forgetting to remove the eyebrows for SSJ3. Lightning is so obvious. But let me know your thoughts! Thanks for watching! If you enjoyed the video, hit the Like and Subscribe... and turn on those notifications! All Super Thanks donations welcome or to my Patreon so CZcams doesn't take any of it www.Patreon.com/ScholarVerse
From everything that I've seen and surmised from the story that Toriyama was trying to tell, I am almost certain that Toriyama simply forgot he made Gohan turn Super Saiyan 2 during the Kibito fight. 1) Vegeta kept on saying that Gohan wasnt as strong as he was when he fought Cell. Over and over and over again. During the tournament, in Babidi's spaceship, when Gohan was fighting Dabura, and even more instances in the filler parts of the anime. 2) During Buu's hatching, when Gohan imagines his father saying to get angry like he did against cell to "Tap into all of his strength", Gohan says he cant get angry like that anymore. Thus implying that because he is out of practice, he still depends on anger to trigger Super Saiyan 2, rather than being able to transform at will like Goku can. Again, Toriyama was telling us that *Gohan cannot transform into a Super Saiyan 2 at will, and still depends on anger to achieve that form.* 3) Goku and Vegeta both have the Super Saiyan 2 aura in literally the same chapters. Toriyama could not make it any more clear that Gohan was NOT a Super Saiyan 2. Taking all of this into consideration, it's clear that from Chapter 446 onwards, Toriyama was trying to tell the reader that Gohan cannot achieve Super Saiyan 2 at will. He's out of practice. He also cannot trigger it through anger, because he cannot get to the same level of anger he did against Cell. That's the story being told. The ONLY thing that confuses us is the Kibito fight. It's the Kibito fight that's the issue. The Kibito fight and the Dabura fight chapters were only released two months apart, so I mean....I dont know HOW he forgot in only two months. Maybe he tried to retcon? Hoping readers of weekly Shonen Jump would simply forget he turned Super Saiyan 2 vs. Kibito? Idk.... But if you eliminate Gohan turning Super Saiyan 2 vs. Kibito, everything is perfect.
the lighting we know for a fact isn't there 100% of the time in Super Saiyan 2 its only there when they max their ki out in Super Saiyan 2, gohan did stay in Super Saiyan 2 but when fighting debora he didn't keep his ki at fill power and his stamina did drain. we know this because goku and vageta when they fought in Super Saiyan 2 they too didn't have the ki arcs (the electricity) during the fight. also its worth pointing out in DBS and the manga when goku showed beerus all his Super Saiyan transformations they didn't have the ki arcs either. nor when did Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta have them when he became enraged when beerus hit his wife. the truth is that its situational and not always present. we know gohan was in Super Saiyan 2 based on his hair, in regular Super Saiyan the fringe hair is on his left but in Super Saiyan 2 its on the right and during his fight with Debora it was on his right side not left
To be honest I kind of like Future Trunks going Super Saiyan 2 against Dabora and how in that battle he was able to blast him with ease, then later on he became Super Saiyan rage which if I'm being honest is more of an evolved form of Super Saiyan 2.
My dad loved Dabura's design and powers. He thought he looked so badass. I was shocked he was so impressed 😂 then when he's all feminine/gay in heaven.... "look how they massacred my boy" 😢
Goku estimates if Dabura showed up 7 years ago, they'd be in trouble. And then says he's around Cell's level. The Cell he's referring to is the only Cell that could give them - Gohan specifically, since he'd be the strongest 7 yrs ago - any trouble, which would be Super Perfect Cell. Because Perfect Cell was handled effortlessly by Gohan SSJ2. So that puts the whole "which Cell was Goku referring to?" to rest. After seeing Dabura fight (not take Gohan serious, which Babidi scolds him over), Goku then says his magic makes Dabura actually WAY stronger than he originally thought. So stronger than Super Perfect Cell. The fact that Gohan didn't immediately get bodied means he was SSJ2 and Akira Toriyama simply forgot to draw the electricity. Another easy tell for Dabura's actual level that surpasses anything seen in the Cell Games: Fat Boo spiked his power to a level that made Gohan cower and flee (after Gohan had initially thought his SSJ2 power from the Cell Games could possibly stand up to a suppressed Fat Boo), and also made even stronger SSJ2s stop their fighting and plan to work together now to stop Fat Boo. Goku says "If we all worked together, I'm sure we can beat him" before getting KO'd by Vegeta. After Fat Boo spikes his power to a level that dwarfs Super Perfect Cell, Angered SSJ2 from the Cell Games, and even Goku SSJ2/Majin Vegeta SSJ2....a tired Dabura (Gohan ate a senzu, Dabura didn't) isn't even blinded from the cheap , eye poke assault and knockdown. He later gets up a bit scuffed, ready to FIGHT Fat Boo head-on before getting turned to chocolate (which later we see is a magic technique so OP, it even got Vegito). Considering Gohan just fled instead, that's a massive feat. Which means for Gohan to even survive in a fight against an opponent of Dabura's caliber earlier, he absolutely needed to be SSJ2 minimum.
I think what happened was that when Kibito healed him his ssj1 went to being as strong as his ssj2 from the world tournament and a non angry ssj2 gohan that got his arm broken by Spc. Meaning if he went SSJ2 like Goku told him to do he would’ve tapped into that same power he used at the end of the father son kamehameha or possibly more.
@@UniVS427 Kibito healed Gohan to his normal SSJ2 power before he got his energy taken. Kibito was foreshadowing the potential that would later take 20 whole hours to unlock by Elder Kai (and then eventually, go on to be Beast). Toriyama has always said Gohan is the strongest if all his potential was fully unlocked and utilized 100% Raw emotion can no longer carry Gohan (which was a boost, but limited anyhow). He needs the training and potential unlocks in addition to the anger boost. That's why that SSJ2 he used against Kibito and Dabura was underwhelming, to the point of pissing Vegeta off.
I think Gohan was in Super Saiyan when he fought Dabura just cuz of the comment Kibito made when he healed Gohan about not being able to bring him to full power due to having so much power inside of Gohan. Which would explain why he doesn't go Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura.
gohan was still able to reach Super Saiyan 2 but he wasn't able to maximize his power like he used to, it was a fraction of what it was back then even in Super Saiyan 2 but gohan needed to push himself to scrape at the dormant power he had
Ssj2 is a huge mess, I myself even thought ssj1 was called ssj2 for years before i found out there were actually 2 stages before ssj3. My head canon was saiyan > ssj2 > ssj3. Unfortunately the writers messed it up alot, the hairstyle inconsistancies on goku and gohan in the buu arc and forgetting the electricity very often. And then there was gt where ssj2 was never even mentioned and non existant. Apart from the ocasional electricity every once in a while…
on the DLC 3 of DBZ Kakarot, Future Trunks says "Dabura power level is way higher than Perfect Cell" and he only gets the upper hand when he turns into SSJ2
I standby my opinion that it would have been possible for cell games ssj 2 gohan to beat fat buu. That is how much the others were behind, how much he was ahead, and how far he fell
Torriyama just hated the character of gohan, doesn't like drawing him and does not want him to have the spotlight and be a main character. The whole buu saga is a testament to this. (gohan loses ssj2 the same time goku and vegeta gain it) (The whole build-up with ultimate gohan was only for gohan to be humiliated and goku to come back)(Gohans battle with buutenks being only a couple of pages when gotenk's battle with buu being 3 or more chapters)
True but then we have beast Gohan still I know toriyama wasn’t as involved with super ,overall toriyama always did have a hard time giving the spotlight to anyone not named Goku
@terrencepoinsett4169 it's called his anime history , go read something before you speak , you were wrong so just delete your comment and start from scratch
Everyone overestimates Super Perfect Cell because thats just how damn WELL Toriyama wrote Cell into the constantly changing arc that was the Cell Saga. (or whatever term someone wants to use to define the individual story arcs in Dragon Ball) To me atleast, Cell was written so menacing, that even the Demon King Dabura wasnt as intimidating. (Though Cell had MUCH more pages or screens time to establish himself and was the main villain of his arc) Great video as always bro✊
By the way it says they were equal I see it as Gohan having the edge in raw power but so rusty and unready for real combat that it got exploited, letting his enemy play mind games and as for the lighting sparks I see that as a visual way of letting us know how far his power has fallen since cell and at the lowest end of 2 not enough to spark
2:43 I think Gohan was able to tap into super Saiyan 2 at the tournament because he was already worked up after seeing his girlfriend getting beaten to a pulp by someone who is less than all of the Z fighters.
5:46 Gohan more than likely underestimated Dabura because he didn't seem that strong compared to Goku and Vegeta even though Gohan knows that he's not as strong as he was 7 years prior he still compared himself to Goku and Vegeta.
Cept the whole lightning for ssj2 was fan made conclusions, toriyama adds lightning to auras to show a huge jump in power to show he's powerful, there are many instances of people having lightning even before the cell saga so even if he does t have lightning doesn't mean he isn't ssj2
From my understanding, at the start of the Buu arc, Gohan was around the same level of strength at his base and SS1 forms as he had been 7 years earlier, as growing taller over those 7 years negated a lot of the drop-off he would have had from not training for so long. The dropoff he had from not training after Buu was much worse even though it was for much less time because he was no longer growing at that point. The problem Gohan had against Dabura is that SSJ2 was only part of the story of how strong he was against Cell. He had a rage boost on top of SSJ2 when he was 11 that he didn't have against Dabura. So his power only doubled when against Cell it tripled or quadrupled. The idea that Gohan couldn't hold SSJ2 against Dabura because of a lack of training does fit with his struggles to even go SSJ1 during much of Super, but that would effectively be a retcon of the Dabura fight, which was always supposed to be Gohan fighting at his SSJ2 maximum at that point. Looking at the 2 versions of the fight, the anime played up Gohan's struggles a lot more than the manga. In the manga, Dabura got exactly 1 hit on Gohan that was the result of using magic to catch him off guard. Then he summons his sword to go for the kill and Gohan breaks it. The anime has a whole added filler section of the fight to create the sense that Dabura is winning. In the anime, Vegeta is angry at how Dabura is making Gohan look like a fool and Goku says that Gohan hasn't lost yet, while in the manga, Vegeta is angry that Gohan is taking too long and Goku says that Gohan isn't losing. In the anime, Dabura would have eventually won, while in the manga, Gohan would likely have won.
when broly turn sayen first time we was losing him self and not controling it at all so he explod like that but when you control a certain lvl the aura desapear and beerus show it to goku even its him thats learn him thats ;)
Did you cover this before with the belief that Gohan was SSJ2, but lacked the training to maintain the proper battle ki, hence, no electricity with the aura?
#justicefordabura Bro needed more fights and at least 1 transformation. Could have had a cool mini arc for his race to seek revenge against the Z fighters.
tbh i think gohan was super saiyan 2 against deborah and that he was just weaker than he was when he fought cell and due to the fact that back then gohan was training the hardest he had ever trained before in the hyperbolic time chamber. so gohan didnt acheive ssj3 level power until he attained the mystic form . which can only mean that deborah is on par with super perfect cell and this is proven when gohan has the upperhand and immediately fatigues due to his bad stamina.
I can say that Gohan does lack the ability to use SSJ2 properly cause as shown, it can make his bang longer with lightning but due to him not training proves that he cannot sustain that form for very long. Especially that it doesn't even shake the planet either as its only in the arena. So comes to show that yeah he may be powerful in ssj2 but when he got his ki stolen, it filled half of Buu's Egg and when Goku n Vegeta faced each other in SSJ2, they did it in no time and still got plenty of pure ki in em. Really shows that Gohan is just that pathetic. When he gete a major power boost, it gets to his head and he doesn't get serious till he screws up again. Even when he faced Kibito, he barely was managed to be contained by the idiotic supreme kai. If he was still training, he probs couldn't get caught easily and it looked as if he lost that form itself when he isn't at max ki levels
Gohan was at SSJ2 when he fought Dabura I'll stick with the daizenshuu and the source material It says the fight was fairly equal yes you took this way out of proportions it doesn't have to be 100% equal someone can still have an edge in a fairly equal fight. In the clip you showed about Kibito healing Gohan, Gohan says he is stronger than ever thanks to the healing. 1 factor you completely missed was Gohan's ability as a martial artist, he was getting caught by surprise at many things from Dabura even tho he had prior knowledge on his ability to turn people to stone. This is of course due to Gohan's battle sense being worse than before You can say that Gohan couldn't properly sustain his full power in the fight but that is completely different than him not being able to tap into a transformation which he already showed the ability to do in the same arc.
it wasnt a mistake from toryiama, and he could sustain ssj2. but he didnt for the same reason he didnt against cell. fighting isnt his thing. he doesnt want deep down to hurt that guy for the same reason he didnt want to hurt cell. when vegeta calls him out, he doesnt say anything about him not being able to do it. he chastises him for not doing the job he could already have done.
You'd think Zeno would exist outside of time. Meaning there would only be one Zeno regardless of how many timelines are created. Since he's supposed to be the God of the Dragon Ball World which would imply he created everything that exists. Including Time. Why in the blue hell are there 2 zenos from different timelines if that's the case
I've always thought that lightning is more of a show of power, not necessarily a for sure sign of a form. Gohan was ssj2 against dabura, but he didnt have his overwhelming power anymore, so he lacked the lightning
It's been 7 years since dragon Ball super ended and they still haven't released anything regarding the new season All we got was the childish Dragon Ball daima which makes no sense Common guys I want to see the Moro arc
You really need to choose better titles. If you added the words "During this Fight" it wouldn't be so confusing. You made it sound like the power of Super Saiyan 2 makes no sense as a whole instead of Gohan using against Dabura.
@@SaiyanScholar Actually, I do it with a form of poetry. First I give a description of an artist or group then use one song or album title to see who can recognize the source material. I've stumped professors of English. As for your videos, it sounded to ambiguous and not like did you realize this issue before. Some titles can be left to the imagination, yet a simple and direct title can save a lot of time if the main idea isn't stated until halfway.
@@SaiyanScholar Yeah, the algorithms control too much. I can barely find anything on Amazon because it thinks I want something else. If you were curious about the poetry I mentioned, look up Radish Poet Showings for a few samples. I did a nice tribute to Pat Benetar and didn't have a clever way to title that one, but there are others.
Gohan was SS2!! It makes no sense for him not to be. If he’s weaken after 7 years u don’t think his lower form is too!! & if he’s Just SSj Dabura would had slaughtered him like he did Kibito
SSJ2 Goku > SSJ2 Cell Saga Gohan > Super Perfect Cell = Dabura > SSJ2 Buu Saga Gohan > Perfect Cell > SSJ1 Cell Saga Gohan > SSJ1 Buu Saga Gohan The Super Saiyan 2 transformation is a 2x multiplier. Domination factor begins at 1.2x difference. If Gohan was fighting Dabura at SSJ1, he would have died immediately. Dabura is the same strength as Super Perfect Cell and normal Perfect Cell was already dominating SSJ1 Cell Saga Gohan who was stronger than SSJ1 Buu saga Gohan. Most likely, Gohan was fighting Dabura as SSJ2 the whole time, but he was simply outclassed because he became rusty. During the cell saga, Gohan was barely stronger than Super Perfect Cell. After 7 years of no training, he most likely was considerably weaker, thats why Vegeta was so mad at Gohan, because he knew how much Gohan regressed. Later when Majin Vegeta and SSJ2 Goku fight, he complements how Goku is stronger than Cell saga Gohan was.
I think calling the ssj forms by numbers is stupid af to begin with. Ssj is ssj obvious. Then u have the grades and mastered ssj. Then what is ssj2 should just have stayed ascended ssj. Now hear me out. Ssj3 isn't a transformation. It's a technique. It drains energy super quick for a burst of power. But it's just a technique goku learned. Vegeta surpassed ssj3 when cat hit his wife without transformation into ssj3 unlikelike ssj to ssj2. Because ssj3 isn't a transformation it's a technique. That's why vegeta can't go ssj3 he doesn't know the technique goku learned or invented while dead. But can still surpass it. And even if he could copy goku he wouldn't risk draining himself. Hear me out. Ssj4 is the real legendary supersayan form. A supersayan with his tail. Golden ape like vegeta envisioned on namek. Furthermore i feel like ssj4 is just a true ssj base form. Meaning ontop of the form goku and vegeta could have turned they're hair golden.
Its a asspull just like cell was an asspull and the androids were asspuls. Ssj2 was asspull to push gohan to be the new main character but nobody wanted that
You know... I have to say. I really hate the randomly placed arrows and circles in your thumbnails. I get that statistically, videos with arrows and circles in them perform better in the algorithm but this random haphazard placement just feels like clickbait.
@@SaiyanScholar Well that's a rather arrogant attitude about getting mildly negative feedback. I'll go ahead and tell youtube to stop recommending your channel to me.
@@SaiyanScholar No. Standing your ground would be like "This is my style, I find it funny" or "I disagree, this is what I think" not "I have x analytic metric which means I am above criticism!" and I did not "come after you" I gave you the most tepid of criticism. I didn't name call, insult or yell, I merely commented how I feel about a thing, acknowledged that I understand why it is a thing, and then explained why I feel the way I do. If you cannot handle criticism as mild as that, you probably shouldn't even be reading your comments.
"I didn't name call, insult or yell, I merely commented how I feel about a thing" So did I. The projection on everything you are saying is apparent. You just finger pointed someone who doesn't agree with you and you're being overdramatic because it isn't going your way. By all means, don't interact or visit the channel again because I have no beef with you and don't want any. Cya.
@@SaiyanScholar it's a massive pleasure mate, I usually fall asleep with your videos. Not necessarily following along always, but listening to my boy in the background✌
My thoughts: Yes, it MAY have been a mistake by Toriyama. Toyotarou admitted to forgetting to draw the pupils on Beast Gohan in one chapter. But, is THIS a mistake by Toriyama or meant to ɓe because lightning is a key feature on SSJ2 that was drawn in the SAME chapters on Goku and Vegeta. It would be like forgetting to remove the eyebrows for SSJ3. Lightning is so obvious. But let me know your thoughts!
Thanks for watching! If you enjoyed the video, hit the Like and Subscribe... and turn on those notifications! All Super Thanks donations welcome or to my Patreon so CZcams doesn't take any of it www.Patreon.com/ScholarVerse
From everything that I've seen and surmised from the story that Toriyama was trying to tell, I am almost certain that Toriyama simply forgot he made Gohan turn Super Saiyan 2 during the Kibito fight.
1) Vegeta kept on saying that Gohan wasnt as strong as he was when he fought Cell. Over and over and over again. During the tournament, in Babidi's spaceship, when Gohan was fighting Dabura, and even more instances in the filler parts of the anime.
2) During Buu's hatching, when Gohan imagines his father saying to get angry like he did against cell to "Tap into all of his strength", Gohan says he cant get angry like that anymore. Thus implying that because he is out of practice, he still depends on anger to trigger Super Saiyan 2, rather than being able to transform at will like Goku can. Again, Toriyama was telling us that *Gohan cannot transform into a Super Saiyan 2 at will, and still depends on anger to achieve that form.*
3) Goku and Vegeta both have the Super Saiyan 2 aura in literally the same chapters. Toriyama could not make it any more clear that Gohan was NOT a Super Saiyan 2.
Taking all of this into consideration, it's clear that from Chapter 446 onwards, Toriyama was trying to tell the reader that Gohan cannot achieve Super Saiyan 2 at will. He's out of practice. He also cannot trigger it through anger, because he cannot get to the same level of anger he did against Cell. That's the story being told.
The ONLY thing that confuses us is the Kibito fight. It's the Kibito fight that's the issue.
The Kibito fight and the Dabura fight chapters were only released two months apart, so I mean....I dont know HOW he forgot in only two months. Maybe he tried to retcon? Hoping readers of weekly Shonen Jump would simply forget he turned Super Saiyan 2 vs. Kibito? Idk....
But if you eliminate Gohan turning Super Saiyan 2 vs. Kibito, everything is perfect.
Bro he forgot a whole character who was in the entirety of Dragon ball LAUNCH so If he says he forgot he forget.
@@SaiyanScholar never thought it was the lightning honestly! I love your content, old and new, it’s helping me get me trough some rough times rn
the lighting we know for a fact isn't there 100% of the time in Super Saiyan 2 its only there when they max their ki out in Super Saiyan 2, gohan did stay in Super Saiyan 2 but when fighting debora he didn't keep his ki at fill power and his stamina did drain. we know this because goku and vageta when they fought in Super Saiyan 2 they too didn't have the ki arcs (the electricity) during the fight. also its worth pointing out in DBS and the manga when goku showed beerus all his Super Saiyan transformations they didn't have the ki arcs either. nor when did Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta have them when he became enraged when beerus hit his wife. the truth is that its situational and not always present. we know gohan was in Super Saiyan 2 based on his hair, in regular Super Saiyan the fringe hair is on his left but in Super Saiyan 2 its on the right and during his fight with Debora it was on his right side not left
Its not that ssj2 makes no sense it’s just that Gohan makes no sense.
@@beerasaurus why do you put the J after SS when the Japanese don’t even put the J in the abbreviated version?
@@alit5563 old habit from my dbz forums days
@@alit5563
I've always used SS I didn't know the Japanese don't use the J. I always understood the reference but never felt the need for a J
@@icegangsta5161 supaa saiyajin
@@starbreaker6740
Yee
To be honest I kind of like Future Trunks going Super Saiyan 2 against Dabora and how in that battle he was able to blast him with ease, then later on he became Super Saiyan rage which if I'm being honest is more of an evolved form of Super Saiyan 2.
SSJ Rage looks like a Divine SSJ2, but not quite SSJG.
Might be due to exposure of Goku's and Vegeta's God Ki.
@@zettovii1367 that and all the pent up anger on everything and everyone, especially his guilt where everything becomes his fault.
My dad loved Dabura's design and powers. He thought he looked so badass. I was shocked he was so impressed 😂 then when he's all feminine/gay in heaven.... "look how they massacred my boy" 😢
It was a missed opportunity for him to comeback as comedy relief 😂
And occasionally jumping in the fight, along with Fat Buu now that I think of it 😭
He's literally the devil 😭
Goku estimates if Dabura showed up 7 years ago, they'd be in trouble. And then says he's around Cell's level. The Cell he's referring to is the only Cell that could give them - Gohan specifically, since he'd be the strongest 7 yrs ago - any trouble, which would be Super Perfect Cell. Because Perfect Cell was handled effortlessly by Gohan SSJ2. So that puts the whole "which Cell was Goku referring to?" to rest.
After seeing Dabura fight (not take Gohan serious, which Babidi scolds him over), Goku then says his magic makes Dabura actually WAY stronger than he originally thought. So stronger than Super Perfect Cell.
The fact that Gohan didn't immediately get bodied means he was SSJ2 and Akira Toriyama simply forgot to draw the electricity.
Another easy tell for Dabura's actual level that surpasses anything seen in the Cell Games: Fat Boo spiked his power to a level that made Gohan cower and flee (after Gohan had initially thought his SSJ2 power from the Cell Games could possibly stand up to a suppressed Fat Boo), and also made even stronger SSJ2s stop their fighting and plan to work together now to stop Fat Boo. Goku says "If we all worked together, I'm sure we can beat him" before getting KO'd by Vegeta.
After Fat Boo spikes his power to a level that dwarfs Super Perfect Cell, Angered SSJ2 from the Cell Games, and even Goku SSJ2/Majin Vegeta SSJ2....a tired Dabura (Gohan ate a senzu, Dabura didn't) isn't even blinded from the cheap , eye poke assault and knockdown. He later gets up a bit scuffed, ready to FIGHT Fat Boo head-on before getting turned to chocolate (which later we see is a magic technique so OP, it even got Vegito). Considering Gohan just fled instead, that's a massive feat. Which means for Gohan to even survive in a fight against an opponent of Dabura's caliber earlier, he absolutely needed to be SSJ2 minimum.
I think what happened was that when Kibito healed him his ssj1 went to being as strong as his ssj2 from the world tournament and a non angry ssj2 gohan that got his arm broken by Spc. Meaning if he went SSJ2 like Goku told him to do he would’ve tapped into that same power he used at the end of the father son kamehameha or possibly more.
@@UniVS427 Kibito healed Gohan to his normal SSJ2 power before he got his energy taken. Kibito was foreshadowing the potential that would later take 20 whole hours to unlock by Elder Kai (and then eventually, go on to be Beast). Toriyama has always said Gohan is the strongest if all his potential was fully unlocked and utilized 100%
Raw emotion can no longer carry Gohan (which was a boost, but limited anyhow). He needs the training and potential unlocks in addition to the anger boost. That's why that SSJ2 he used against Kibito and Dabura was underwhelming, to the point of pissing Vegeta off.
Scholar, I think the circle missed its target in the thumbnail 🫢
Naw it's showing the little zappy zaps of SSJ2
I think Gohan was in Super Saiyan when he fought Dabura just cuz of the comment Kibito made when he healed Gohan about not being able to bring him to full power due to having so much power inside of Gohan. Which would explain why he doesn't go Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura.
gohan was still able to reach Super Saiyan 2 but he wasn't able to maximize his power like he used to, it was a fraction of what it was back then even in Super Saiyan 2 but gohan needed to push himself to scrape at the dormant power he had
I’m so glad you circled that tiny bit of gohans hair
Everyone forgets the whole thing about this fight though. They were trying to stop Buu from emerging.
Ssj2 is a huge mess, I myself even thought ssj1 was called ssj2 for years before i found out there were actually 2 stages before ssj3. My head canon was saiyan > ssj2 > ssj3.
Unfortunately the writers messed it up alot, the hairstyle inconsistancies on goku and gohan in the buu arc and forgetting the electricity very often.
And then there was gt where ssj2 was never even mentioned and non existant. Apart from the ocasional electricity every once in a while…
Why do you use j? When talking about super saiyans?
@timothyparks31 It's the official title that Toriyama intended.
on the DLC 3 of DBZ Kakarot, Future Trunks says "Dabura power level is way higher than Perfect Cell" and he only gets the upper hand when he turns into SSJ2
Future dabura =/= present dabura, also trunks never actually saw super perfect cell.
I standby my opinion that it would have been possible for cell games ssj 2 gohan to beat fat buu. That is how much the others were behind, how much he was ahead, and how far he fell
Torriyama just hated the character of gohan, doesn't like drawing him and does not want him to have the spotlight and be a main character. The whole buu saga is a testament to this. (gohan loses ssj2 the same time goku and vegeta gain it) (The whole build-up with ultimate gohan was only for gohan to be humiliated and goku to come back)(Gohans battle with buutenks being only a couple of pages when gotenk's battle with buu being 3 or more chapters)
True but then we have beast Gohan still I know toriyama wasn’t as involved with super ,overall toriyama always did have a hard time giving the spotlight to anyone not named Goku
Toriyama no where near hated gohan, he wanted to give gohan the lead roll but fans didn't want that a long time ago before the buy saga
Lmao so you spoke to him on the characters he hates, huh.... keep going 🤡
@terrencepoinsett4169 it's called his anime history , go read something before you speak , you were wrong so just delete your comment and start from scratch
@terrencepoinsett4169 plus don't you think your comment stands for yourself 🤔 ? More to think about huh?
Everyone overestimates Super Perfect Cell because thats just how damn WELL Toriyama wrote Cell into the constantly changing arc that was the Cell Saga. (or whatever term someone wants to use to define the individual story arcs in Dragon Ball) To me atleast, Cell was written so menacing, that even the Demon King Dabura wasnt as intimidating. (Though Cell had MUCH more pages or screens time to establish himself and was the main villain of his arc)
Great video as always bro✊
By the way it says they were equal I see it as Gohan having the edge in raw power but so rusty and unready for real combat that it got exploited, letting his enemy play mind games and as for the lighting sparks I see that as a visual way of letting us know how far his power has fallen since cell and at the lowest end of 2 not enough to spark
Professor Saiyan, what’s your opinion on Sparking Zero? Should we expect our first experience seeing you kick ass?
2:43 I think Gohan was able to tap into super Saiyan 2 at the tournament because he was already worked up after seeing his girlfriend getting beaten to a pulp by someone who is less than all of the Z fighters.
Nice Explanation Bro
Excellent video
SS2 Gohan is awesome 😎
Once
If gohan was like future Gohan I know hes not strong but he was a good character
5:46 Gohan more than likely underestimated Dabura because he didn't seem that strong compared to Goku and Vegeta even though Gohan knows that he's not as strong as he was 7 years prior he still compared himself to Goku and Vegeta.
Cept the whole lightning for ssj2 was fan made conclusions, toriyama adds lightning to auras to show a huge jump in power to show he's powerful, there are many instances of people having lightning even before the cell saga so even if he does t have lightning doesn't mean he isn't ssj2
From my understanding, at the start of the Buu arc, Gohan was around the same level of strength at his base and SS1 forms as he had been 7 years earlier, as growing taller over those 7 years negated a lot of the drop-off he would have had from not training for so long. The dropoff he had from not training after Buu was much worse even though it was for much less time because he was no longer growing at that point. The problem Gohan had against Dabura is that SSJ2 was only part of the story of how strong he was against Cell. He had a rage boost on top of SSJ2 when he was 11 that he didn't have against Dabura. So his power only doubled when against Cell it tripled or quadrupled.
The idea that Gohan couldn't hold SSJ2 against Dabura because of a lack of training does fit with his struggles to even go SSJ1 during much of Super, but that would effectively be a retcon of the Dabura fight, which was always supposed to be Gohan fighting at his SSJ2 maximum at that point.
Looking at the 2 versions of the fight, the anime played up Gohan's struggles a lot more than the manga. In the manga, Dabura got exactly 1 hit on Gohan that was the result of using magic to catch him off guard. Then he summons his sword to go for the kill and Gohan breaks it. The anime has a whole added filler section of the fight to create the sense that Dabura is winning. In the anime, Vegeta is angry at how Dabura is making Gohan look like a fool and Goku says that Gohan hasn't lost yet, while in the manga, Vegeta is angry that Gohan is taking too long and Goku says that Gohan isn't losing. In the anime, Dabura would have eventually won, while in the manga, Gohan would likely have won.
Hey can you make a what if video, explaining who you think will win between SSJ2 kid Gohan vs Majin Vegeta SSJ2
Funny how the arrow and circle kinda make sense for this one the little zappy zaps are very relevant
It makes so little sense, that we failed to get another video regarding False Super Saiyan
🫡😂
Makes sense, feels like you just ended a debate thats been going on for years, thanks for the content
Vegeta states Gohan is a lot weaker than when he fought cell.
Makes more sense than some of your video titles☠️ (I’m jk man good work)
I Agree
Daizenshus often provides with false information
no aura = masterised lvl we all know bro
when broly turn sayen first time we was losing him self and not controling it at all so he explod like that but when you control a certain lvl the aura desapear and beerus show it to goku even its him thats learn him thats ;)
Did you cover this before with the belief that Gohan was SSJ2, but lacked the training to maintain the proper battle ki, hence, no electricity with the aura?
Here 🗣️
#justicefordabura
Bro needed more fights and at least 1 transformation. Could have had a cool mini arc for his race to seek revenge against the Z fighters.
tbh i think gohan was super saiyan 2 against deborah and that he was just weaker than he was when he fought cell and due to the fact that back then gohan was training the hardest he had ever trained before in the hyperbolic time chamber. so gohan didnt acheive ssj3 level power until he attained the mystic form . which can only mean that deborah is on par with super perfect cell and this is proven when gohan has the upperhand and immediately fatigues due to his bad stamina.
I can say that Gohan does lack the ability to use SSJ2 properly cause as shown, it can make his bang longer with lightning but due to him not training proves that he cannot sustain that form for very long. Especially that it doesn't even shake the planet either as its only in the arena.
So comes to show that yeah he may be powerful in ssj2 but when he got his ki stolen, it filled half of Buu's Egg and when Goku n Vegeta faced each other in SSJ2, they did it in no time and still got plenty of pure ki in em. Really shows that Gohan is just that pathetic.
When he gete a major power boost, it gets to his head and he doesn't get serious till he screws up again. Even when he faced Kibito, he barely was managed to be contained by the idiotic supreme kai. If he was still training, he probs couldn't get caught easily and it looked as if he lost that form itself when he isn't at max ki levels
Gohan was at SSJ2 when he fought Dabura I'll stick with the daizenshuu and the source material
It says the fight was fairly equal yes you took this way out of proportions it doesn't have to be 100% equal someone can still have an edge in a fairly equal fight.
In the clip you showed about Kibito healing Gohan, Gohan says he is stronger than ever thanks to the healing.
1 factor you completely missed was Gohan's ability as a martial artist, he was getting caught by surprise at many things from Dabura even tho he had prior knowledge on his ability to turn people to stone.
This is of course due to Gohan's battle sense being worse than before
You can say that Gohan couldn't properly sustain his full power in the fight but that is completely different than him not being able to tap into a transformation which he already showed the ability to do in the same arc.
True true
That thumbnail made me laugh for the first time today, thank you Scholar.
it wasnt a mistake from toryiama, and he could sustain ssj2. but he didnt for the same reason he didnt against cell. fighting isnt his thing. he doesnt want deep down to hurt that guy for the same reason he didnt want to hurt cell. when vegeta calls him out, he doesnt say anything about him not being able to do it. he chastises him for not doing the job he could already have done.
Im more shocked at Kibito's color 😆
Black leopard has soft fur
You'd think Zeno would exist outside of time. Meaning there would only be one Zeno regardless of how many timelines are created. Since he's supposed to be the God of the Dragon Ball World which would imply he created everything that exists. Including Time. Why in the blue hell are there 2 zenos from different timelines if that's the case
SSJ 2 was not a form it was supposed to just be gohan with his potential unleashed as a ssj
I've always thought that lightning is more of a show of power, not necessarily a for sure sign of a form.
Gohan was ssj2 against dabura, but he didnt have his overwhelming power anymore, so he lacked the lightning
It's been 7 years since dragon Ball super ended and they still haven't released anything regarding the new season
All we got was the childish Dragon Ball daima which makes no sense
Common guys I want to see the Moro arc
You really need to choose better titles. If you added the words "During this Fight" it wouldn't be so confusing. You made it sound like the power of Super Saiyan 2 makes no sense as a whole instead of Gohan using against Dabura.
It’s for views obviously
Wouldn't you be great at titling books and giving it all away before they even open it lol
@@SaiyanScholar Actually, I do it with a form of poetry. First I give a description of an artist or group then use one song or album title to see who can recognize the source material. I've stumped professors of English.
As for your videos, it sounded to ambiguous and not like did you realize this issue before. Some titles can be left to the imagination, yet a simple and direct title can save a lot of time if the main idea isn't stated until halfway.
Yeah I get ya. I would but algorithms do better by keeping mystery in the title so I just go ahead with that for now.
@@SaiyanScholar Yeah, the algorithms control too much. I can barely find anything on Amazon because it thinks I want something else.
If you were curious about the poetry I mentioned, look up Radish Poet Showings for a few samples. I did a nice tribute to Pat Benetar and didn't have a clever way to title that one, but there are others.
Gohan was SS2!! It makes no sense for him not to be. If he’s weaken after 7 years u don’t think his lower form is too!! & if he’s Just SSj Dabura would had slaughtered him like he did Kibito
SSJ2 Goku > SSJ2 Cell Saga Gohan > Super Perfect Cell = Dabura > SSJ2 Buu Saga Gohan > Perfect Cell > SSJ1 Cell Saga Gohan > SSJ1 Buu Saga Gohan
The Super Saiyan 2 transformation is a 2x multiplier. Domination factor begins at 1.2x difference.
If Gohan was fighting Dabura at SSJ1, he would have died immediately. Dabura is the same strength as Super Perfect Cell and normal Perfect Cell was already dominating SSJ1 Cell Saga Gohan who was stronger than SSJ1 Buu saga Gohan. Most likely, Gohan was fighting Dabura as SSJ2 the whole time, but he was simply outclassed because he became rusty. During the cell saga, Gohan was barely stronger than Super Perfect Cell. After 7 years of no training, he most likely was considerably weaker, thats why Vegeta was so mad at Gohan, because he knew how much Gohan regressed. Later when Majin Vegeta and SSJ2 Goku fight, he complements how Goku is stronger than Cell saga Gohan was.
I think calling the ssj forms by numbers is stupid af to begin with. Ssj is ssj obvious. Then u have the grades and mastered ssj. Then what is ssj2 should just have stayed ascended ssj. Now hear me out. Ssj3 isn't a transformation. It's a technique. It drains energy super quick for a burst of power. But it's just a technique goku learned. Vegeta surpassed ssj3 when cat hit his wife without transformation into ssj3 unlikelike ssj to ssj2. Because ssj3 isn't a transformation it's a technique. That's why vegeta can't go ssj3 he doesn't know the technique goku learned or invented while dead. But can still surpass it. And even if he could copy goku he wouldn't risk draining himself. Hear me out. Ssj4 is the real legendary supersayan form. A supersayan with his tail. Golden ape like vegeta envisioned on namek. Furthermore i feel like ssj4 is just a true ssj base form. Meaning ontop of the form goku and vegeta could have turned they're hair golden.
The whole thing makes No sense
SSJ2 is obviously a super saiyan super saiyan...super saiyan Squared. SSJ^2
Gohan was ssj2 and eventually gohan wouldve won that fight
damn, I'm early
Second
5th
I've got better one; why pointing at and circling random things in the the thumbnail makes no sense.
bro stop with the goofy thumbnails 💀
If you stop commenting about it, he will stop. He does it to farm comments.
No 👎
@@SaiyanScholar Keep them I like trying to make up ways to decipher them even if they mean nothing
Its a asspull just like cell was an asspull and the androids were asspuls. Ssj2 was asspull to push gohan to be the new main character but nobody wanted that
First
this could have been a decent 3 min video
Instead it's a decent 9 min video
You know... I have to say. I really hate the randomly placed arrows and circles in your thumbnails. I get that statistically, videos with arrows and circles in them perform better in the algorithm but this random haphazard placement just feels like clickbait.
When videos go from 97% average likes down to 49% then I'll consider taking advice.
@@SaiyanScholar Well that's a rather arrogant attitude about getting mildly negative feedback. I'll go ahead and tell youtube to stop recommending your channel to me.
My post was standing my ground after you came at me. Read your last post, you're the problem here.
@@SaiyanScholar No. Standing your ground would be like "This is my style, I find it funny" or "I disagree, this is what I think" not "I have x analytic metric which means I am above criticism!" and I did not "come after you" I gave you the most tepid of criticism.
I didn't name call, insult or yell, I merely commented how I feel about a thing, acknowledged that I understand why it is a thing, and then explained why I feel the way I do.
If you cannot handle criticism as mild as that, you probably shouldn't even be reading your comments.
"I didn't name call, insult or yell, I merely commented how I feel about a thing"
So did I. The projection on everything you are saying is apparent. You just finger pointed someone who doesn't agree with you and you're being overdramatic because it isn't going your way. By all means, don't interact or visit the channel again because I have no beef with you and don't want any. Cya.
Be cause writers don’t want to draw all that extra electricity that why
W video
massive L for CZcams for demonetizing
will definitely support bro🤍✌
Thank you so much King Crytical
@@SaiyanScholar it's a massive pleasure mate, I usually fall asleep with your videos. Not necessarily following along always, but listening to my boy in the background✌