Forestry In Merritt
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- čas přidán 23. 08. 2023
- Conversations with Local Loggers Battling Industry Red Tape.
"The logging industry must stabilize to provide support for both its workers and the local community."
A Big Power Films Production. - Krátké a kreslené filmy
In 1985 Logan Lake and Tech Corporation Highmont Mines called the miners into the office at 12:00 pm to tell them the mine is shut down and to go home. 350 employees were affected. Being one of those employees with 2 kids and a wife .. we were devastated. We gave the house back to the Bank of Montreal packed up our belongings over a 6 month period and left the town. The prospects for work in those years were not good. Both governments were not helpful at all. I sympathize for these workers. Between this Global Warming BS and shutting down of the economy to “save the planet”.. the common man is looked upon as expendable.
Ha, the global warming 'bs' is a, if not the, principle contributing factor to the size of the fires we're witnessing these days..
I was one of those who were called in at noon:; actually my wife knew before I did as it was announced on the local radio station before the employees knew.
But... you made it? Some how? That you're still here, should give some of us younger guys some degree of hope?
NDP continues to "support" the working class and the way they want to do that is put everyone on the government dole.
NDP, does not nor has ever supported forestry in a way anyone in the industry would agree with , a lack of interest and giving the impression it can survive on it's own with unreasonable expectations at times leaving the logging companies and it's contractors ,employees and their families frustrated , all trying to make it work. I voted for the ndp when I was a kid and got promptly put out of work , nieve ? yes, but over 50 years experience I will offer my opinion because I care .. There is no magic answer, but a new government, interested management, and innovative secondary products manufacturing would be a step in the right direction, and yes smaller, but all weather footing for our future and families.🏡 🇨🇦 ☮️
The NDP government took all the Tree Farm Liscenses away from the mills now all the logs are expoprted overseas
Youbou, Thahsis,Mayo ,Cepa,Elkfalls,Gold River,Powell river,Field sawmills.Doman Forest Droducts,Sooke mill,Island Pheonix,Apd Port,Soomas Port,Nigaurds,and many more.
Since 1997 15 big mills have closed.Many small mills have also closed.
Moe Sahotta and the NDP were in power at that time.
Most People Have Already Forgotten All This.
I live in Nanaimo and I can go down to the harbor any day and watch them load our logs onto ships and send them to China ,Japan USA,Taiwan naming just some of them.
They argue that at least some loggers are working???????
The world needs wood fibre more and more every day.
That's what communists do.
Climate tax , fuel tax , tax, tax , taxed to death .
dont forget the upcoming breathing tax from our upcoming king nothing!
@@user-zj2oi9xw9o and a sex tax be next
Trudeau plan
Merritt isn't dying. It's being killed.
It all part of the plan. I bet it is going to get a lot worse.
It is being killed. The bastards👎
Build a ski hill. As close to Merritt as possible. The place gets a lot of snow. It could eventually be like the Whistler area.
People are too lazy and cannot create only destroy. Make things to make your city.. Merritt as a city is awful to visit. Make it better and people overspend and over reach and are greedy. We work retail and make enough to live fine in Penticton.. we do not need logging to survive. Get creative!
@@gmw3083 fwk you .. and all that think like you ! Thinking about making a buck from an elitist leisurely SPORT , on the heels of a BASIC industry in distress from government ineptitude ,.. an industry that is NEEDED to build society and housing ! Our politicians and the wealthy , DO NOT CARE what happens to those that need to work to live.
The permits will balance themselves out! Right Trudy 😂
If trees are not being cut, mills are not processing lumber, which means houses are not being built or repaired. That means the housing shortage will get worse.
everything is made or built out of concrete these days ... high density housing !! what a croc
@wb5577 funny, I was hauling prefab houses in 2021/22 and those were all made of wood not concrete 😂
@@merritttruckerHe hasn’t got a clue what he is talking about. Typical big city clown.
...and it's by design
@@wb5577 I don’t know where you are looking but the vast majority of homes are built with wood.
Great production. Our federal and provincial governments are mismanaging our forests and that needs to change.
#TakeItBack
You are right, but it won't. Government is too afraid to challenge the indians and the enviromental movement to do what needs to be done.
dont get it twisted, the environMENTALists and the Natives are being paid off to say these things and string up the red tape@@ianhowes8141
All governments of any stripe are reactive not proactive in change to what is acceptable practice.
No shit. They ceded control to the largest companies thirty years ago.
Ft Nelson…someone waved their big chief feather at the oil and gas industry and the industry said ok we are outa here,we can drill for oil and gas other places and now ft Nelson is almost a ghost town
i was in prince george on a crisp sunny saturday afternoon in the fall last year, the streets were literally empty for the most part short of a few losers using the td bank vestibule as a temporary home and urinal, bars and restaurants empty, most other stores closed, some boarded up even, it was a dystopian nightmare quite similar to the omega man if one cares for some extra context, this shit show will not continue much longer, sooner or later the productive types will snap, one can hope, lol
My heart goes out to you folks as a fourth gen sub contractor I feel your pain and uncertainty. My town has just gone through the same thing. Hold on we will get through this.
Cranbrook,Terrace .went through the same process.. I lived in both towns when the mills shut down.. sad Cranbrook bounced back but I don’t thin Terrace will ..
Terrace is booming like it never has before
Thanks for getting this message out there - I really respect the views on Forestry Management. I don’t get it - Canada is killing it’s Oil and Gas, Forestry, Farming industries (while we have a housing crisis and inflation) - Something is going to break and has to change. Canadian Conservatives are saying they want less bureaucracy - my vote is going there (I just hope it is enough and timely)
Government is killing Canada
Me too brother. Me too. Hope you have a great next 5 years.
"You will have nothing and you will be happy", this is a part and parcel of the WEF plan to destroy economies.
The Great Reset
You forgot to include fishing, mining, etc. All primary industries. The back bone of the Canadian economy.
Thank you for this. I have been thinking about re-locating to live in Merritt. My heart is with you all.
Merritt businessman Mike Martins says Merritt is a racist small town. czcams.com/video/ky3TgjqW6gI/video.html
The forestry response to forest fires should be automatic. Our country’s main problem is poor management.
Our countries main problem is WEF
We do not have poor management; we do not have any management! With the billions of dollars caused by the floods and fires it seems like the government wants the town gone. then they can shut down the hospital and all other government agencies.
"Management"..... code for government.
Poor management = idiots. And the taxpayer is by pain obligated to pay the increasing mortgage, year by year. There is no vaccine for this.
It's not just Merritt; it's all of BC forestry, we're all hurting from Creston to Fort St John, PG to Terrace. The major corporate mills are bailing to the USA and Alberta because they know they are done here. After 15yrs in the industry as a Saw Filer, im leaving for greener pastures in other industries cause logging/lumber is done, which is so sad. I'm just glad that im only mid 30s, and have no kids
I started retirement career at 50. You have time to create a better career like everyone. Think hard about it and get creative... cannabis industry is growing and hemp industry could replace logging. All land around Merit could be hemp
@@ThomwoththeWeather some people just dont get it. ! Blinded by their own stupidity. Not everyone can "get creative" and start a business , or be in the service industry , ( in other words a serf, or slave to others). A whole resource industry is being destroyed by people like you that think "we dont need logging to survive" ... and some of those people control government .. SMH
I saw this coming 30 years ago. I did two things right. I don't smoke and i don't have kids.
@@ThomwoththeWeatherA fast renewable fiber crop, no bug killing involved.
So, we're not producing lumber? What is the plan? What are the new and promised housing units made of? What are the construction materials?
Are we expected to sit happily in our steel and concrete cage ( I mean cube) with our universal basic income and watch videos about fishing or go VR fishing? Will we be HAPPY!?
Same in 🇬🇧
That's the plan.
Even steel and concrete are under attack. The activists might, maybe, be OK with you living in a mud hut.
All bought from overseas
The new houses will be 3D printed with fairy cum, didn't you know? Infuriating ... the idiocy going on in this country. Lumby BC ... another once-prosperous logging town, decimated. I watched the cedar resaw mill I worked at DIE within a year. Last summer we were bumpin, staff of 20+, wonderful place to work. Since July 2023 it's limping along part time on group EI benefits with a staff of 9. I literally cried.
I support Canadian Forestry, From Nova Scotia.
Thanks man.
And Trudeau sends our money to other countries
First get rid of the NDP. (National Disaster Party ) Then elect a NONE woke government .
The last ten people I asked what "woke" means, I got ten different non-answers.
neither the left or right are willing to help, we need to ditch the political bird and get some new parties from actual people, not just politicians
@@tnbrfller "woke" is a leftist ideology whereby all the horrific impact of your policies are negated by your "good intentions".
Tell this to the metro vancouver folks.
What’s their theory “you won’t own anything but you’ll be happy” I don’t think so
Don't forget eating bugs.
This is good to get out there, BCTS leaving the burnt timber and not planting the future is not the way. Looking for stumpage on the burnt wood is not the way. Softwood lumber deal at the border is fixed and all the mills are cutting in the US. They like having the business, here in BC we are walking the tight rope. You can’t replace the experience of the 40 year vet. We need help and needed two years ago. Wish all you in Merritt the best and hope you get cutting soon!
In the USA, when there is a disaster, storm, fire, insect infestation. The private landowners immediately salvage log for best practices, and utilization. But the feds always sit on their thumb, until its too late.
Wow, I’m totally surprised, I thought logging industry didn’t have people to keep up to demand.
Here in Calgary government talking about shortage of housing, don’t we need lumber to build them 🤷♂️
We heard the new houses in Alberta will be constructed without wood because it burns to easily.
@@CorryGal not sure what would we use for substitute, wood I pretty cheap and available, try to do anything else and it will be more expensive.
As a rural Albertan I appreciate the insight into your industry . This was eye opening . How often do we see government inefficiency when they get too big no matter which industry it is. My thoughts are with you.
We heard the Alberta government is very efficient. Is that why Alberta doesn't have a sales tax?
Alberta doesnt have sales tax because they are pro business and oil production also helps.
Some really down to earth people who just want a normal life raise their family but that’s the dream of the average family to be happy sad this is happening to you guys hope it gets better soon 👍👍👍👍👍🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺
Great video!
So sad. I was in Merritt in 2018 and it was beautiful.
Lots of burned trees near Merritt now. Looks terrible.
Great video. I was worried that it might be a Rizzardo soapbox episode. It wasn’t. Very well done.
Sounds like what the federal government has done and is doing to Alberta’s oil&gas industry, it affects everybody from restaurants to small businesses
Yes up in the N. E. part this province we in the same boat there is a total disconnect between the U.N backers in Victoria who are pushing the new agenda and the rural resource workers that understand production is the only way to compete in todays world . I am lucky here we are close enough to pick up a bit of oil patch work in Alberta and sort of stay current. But B.C. resources is basically shut down to the independent traditional small business as UNDRIP is applied by our NDP .
UNDRIP..... it's not what it claims to be. It's horrible, and Horgan shoved it down everyone's throat prior to his stepping down.
merritt looks like great hub to make into a 15min city. chinese mill owners all over bc now, big time. need big forest fires for climate change, so better to keep hard working loggers out of the forests, so they cant stumble on the criminals setting the fires
Taxes , taxes , taxes for big government
Sad to see....... Government has become too top heavy ! Same thing happened in Fort Nelson! We're still struggling! Hope yall find a resolution unlike us....
Does anyone know if Dean Thompson ( ADM Consulting ) & family is still living in the lower Nicola ? Thanks George
Feels like we are on pause until they bring in their new social credit economic system.
Ardew and Weyerhaeuser not operating in town? Used to boom
Crazy stumpage!
I own a small town sawmill 10 employees I’m having hard time finding logs to keep mill going because of this
The way the government agencies have ignored this solevable problem is appalling! It is a tragedy that skilled and hardworking people are left in limbo. The situation is disgusting. This impas could be resolved.
How would you solve the impasse?
Shared
This video is bang on. Why do all levels of government not get this problem. Permits to do with anything take to long. Why in my view is that there are to many managers involved. They create their empires and create useless paper work and this slows everything down. Now getting off topic I can give you a good example from another profession. I am a retired police officer and at one point in my career my department reduced the rank structure. Gone was corporal, staff sergeant, superintendent. Guess what......the useless paper work stopped and things got done. The department got new life and all was well. I think government on all levels need to clean house and get rid of a lot of useless managers. They are the problem. Things will get done and hope fully life will return to normal.
I did tree planting to pounding nails in the wood industry since the 70s.. Its the Government ! Lib. Ndp. Combined is death too industry !
The new house building industry is in the same boat in BC we are waiting up to 3 or 4 months for building permits to be issued
You can only afford to truck the logs so far . Savona had a sawmill and a plywood plant , but trucking in logs from the Pemberton Valley was uneconomical
What gets me, is that we have this awesome renewable resource that benefits so many, and can bring wealth to our country for generations, and we don't allow it's use. We've decided it's horrible somehow.
You have to wonder if BC timber sales is trying to save that wood for the overseas owned pellet plants.
Another subsidized fire sale, like the exporting of prime fiber, because they shut the mills. Like having to sell raw eggs instead of selling omelets to pay the bills and pay taxes.
This is going on all over bc.
Forestry needs MORE workers, not less … but, more of the people need to be planting? 😊 I’d love to see these guys, driving these machines and trucks, planting trees that are are like, 5-10 meters tall already. 😅 Grow the trees in a factory, ship them by truck, install with heavy machinery. 🤔 Install BIG forest quickly? Exactly what the hippies want, kinda? So, we all win? 😇👍
THAT would be a skill Canada can export too! 😊 Moving and planting HEAVY trees would be one of those “Fight Climate Change” type of industries, that *might* BOOM.
noting that, “Wildfire Fighters” booming as well. … so, “Replanting” SHOULD be huge. 😅 If humanity is smart, but we kinda aren’t. 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
BC government doesn’t seem to know how to do forestry, or farming. 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️ rediculous.
Oh, I’m gonna have to hit up my local Green Party people, tell them to 💩 on the NDP, get some things sorted out. 🤷♀️ What use is Green Party if they aren’t going to comment on farming and forestry. 😂 I know they have opinions! 💜👍
Oh, huge potential. You know what’s better than collecting EI, becuase the Gov’t doesn’t want to cut trees? Gov’t sponsored jobs planting trees. 🤣😘
Mackenzie was once a vibrant community, it had a papermill, pulpmill, 5 sawmills and various supporting businesses. It's now down to a stud mill, 2 sawmills and a co gen. Dozens of logging trucks shipping wood south of town. Not much of a future for these small towns in central, northern BC.
small towns just don't garner many votes in a democracy. it's a global phenomena. this even translates to the lower mainland where vancouver/surrey pretty much dictate the local agenda.
Unfortunately this is what happens , when we as a province , elect a government that is only concerned with how the lower mainland and the island vote. All small interior , forest dependant towns are in trouble. There is one comment at 23:53 when Brian McKinnon asks where is the revenue and tax money going to come from , that is a very salient comment. In order for us as British Columbians to have a strong and prosporous province we need forestry , mining , ranching and small towns to be an integral part of our economy. We also need our politicians to wake up to the plight of our forest communities and realize that there is more to this province than what goes on in the southwest corner.
Yes well experienced at that! I have put in for jobs which I should get as a foreman for experience with then there for a month and move to General foreman"s position. But I get a
"Due to the high volume of applicants ....."" WAPOS!
Thank globalism
Miss managed , government is the problem, provincial n federal government sitting on there butt . Climate change my foot.
It's all by design.
Absolutely by design.......
Hemp farming needs to be made asap for Merrill
were you told today .. " ....." BRAINDEAD ... go back to your semi-retired retail outlet in Penticton. Hope things work out for you ... smoke more weed. haha
Everyone thinks they’re a victim and blames whatever government is in power. Nothing will ever change.
Well, to be fair, when someone stands up and says "put me in power and I'll fix all the problems", then the criticism is warranted. When you work for government, you are responsible. I was the Captain of a ship for years. Not once did I blame anything on the crew, passengers, or other factors. I was in charge and took responsibility. If you can't do the job and are an impediment, then you need to quit.
@@ickster23 Yes, you may have been captain, but you weren't put there through a popularity contest. The real power in a democracy is with the people, and the people have not been doing their job. They *have* been electing leadership through popularity contests, instead of doing their duty to understand policy and the difficult decisions that have to be made as a part of governance, and choose the most competent leadership.
@@MrSunrise- I'm not sure there are any true democracies anymore. I can't think of any. Most Western nations have a sliver of democracy, but nothing so much that can make a difference . I would also note that democracy is really only possible in smaller nations or organizations.
Popularly contest or not - and I do agree there are strong elements of that in most pseudo democracies - when someone says they know what the problem is, what the solution is, and then, upon attaining power, implement their views and opinions in law, then it is totally fair to point the finger at them if they fail. That's actually a very charitable consequence of failing, as there could be much stiffer penalties.
We need to shake things up Rick. Change is needed.
It’s NOT just Merritt
Sad story to say the least, but one-side of the picture only. Would have been nice if the mills, the MoF/BCTS and the indians would have presented their perspective. But then MoF/BCTS employees have secure jobs regardless of the state of the industry, and it has always been easier to hide behind "policy" than to effect change - even in my day! And the indians collect welfare and get government money to "manage" land and resources that don't belong to them regardless of the state of the industry. The mills - ???????? I hope things change, but I would be surprised - glad I got out when I did!
I've been in forestry for almost 60 years. The way we used to work was sustainable. Now it's not . We worked 8 hours a day . There was fallers skiddermen cat sinners truck drivers loader operators buckermen. Now it's all done by machine24 hours aday 7 days aweek . How is that sustainable
…..exactly
Ironic coal in B.C is expanding.
BC real political master, that being China, needs coal. China has their own timber, so they don't really want us competing with them.
China is in need coal isn’t that nice!
Yes but that coal is for China, we can't burn it here that would be bad for the environment.
Very sad
You mean to tell me beurocrats and governments dont care abput the people? Well shocked i say, shocked truly
They talk here about the fires and such. Truth of that is that fires are normal, natural, and healthy. If you don't log it, it'll burn. If you don't let it burn, and don't let people log, then eventually it _will_ burn anyway, and burn bad. Why are there fires? Ask yourself, how old does a forest get before it's a tinderbox? How long does a tree live? How often should a given stand burn? Take their "worst fires evar!!" line and think about it in that light. Probably it's not burning as bad as they'd like us to think. It's just got a backlog from when we used to put out literally every fire. We could log some, let some burn, leave some be. That'd be better.
hapened in Sechelt years ago, tourism and retirees helped but things were better before, im gone from there now tired of death threats from the tree huggers, on the answering machine.
10 days ago ! And only 3 commoments...
R E D TAPE
Forestry wouldnt be such a problem if Canada's wood products weren't shipped away to other countries, that isn't sustainable...
Come to Alberta, $40-$50/hr for lowbed/winch truck drivers
Thanks Willy. I'll pack my bags and hitch hike to Alberta for a driving job paying $40 to $50 an hour. What is your address?
It might be the fact that Justin Trudeau and Chrystia Freeland wanted to talk about climate change and carbon taxes when at negotiations with Mexico and Trump at Nafta. Canada has been dumping cheap lumber for years, now the tariffs and the USA market is killing that industry . They are doing the same to dairy products imported into the states.
Forestry Farming Mining you name it they're killing it all, next time you fools decide to vote NDP you'd better apologize first to the rest of BC. I wonder when all the mills stop will the unions still vote NDP?
The. Federal government just shut off the water to farmers in BC also.
Mills have been closing all across BC. Merritt is just one of hundreds of small communities devastated by decades of horrendous forest mismanagement. The Province has consistently failed to invest in areas of high intensity forest management to offset all the removals from the working forest. The Government took the windfall profits from the MPB outbreak and did essentially nothing to offset the inevitable downfall. Urban based populations have been bleeding the forests to pay for their fancy hospitals but consistently fail to allow the investment in Forestry that would be required to make it sustainable. BC is not a first world jurisdiction when it comes to forest management. We are grouped with Haiti in terms of our investment in forest management. Control of the forests needs to be separated from the influence of the urban black holes that suck up all the revenue generated in the Interior.
while house market is so hot, so many new home are built in LM, why it doesn't contribute to the forestry industry locally? because Canada is manipulated by US, while its government always cover this.
Politicians arent' losing One penny...
Every registered professional forester should be sued for allowing this to happen in Merritt . That’s why I left 15 years ago as I couldn’t stomach the unsustainable way they allowed us to log. Don’t forget they told us the nettle was going to kill everything and we figured out that there projections were wrong .
Alll greed people that’s all that this is . Be happy you got yours as your children will have nothing;t
Great idea Jason. How can we start a class action lawsuit?
Trees will never grow back in Merritt due to mistletoe , Carole damage , poor growing environments for seedlings . You may get some pine back to make one 2x4 in 100 years but that’s it
Rest in peace Aunty Gwen. Hopefully Merritt does not go with you.
Can help but submit that a renewed forest management plan needs to include salvage cut language-that skips this permit process, and establishes protocols for immediate action ( harvest). Now, we wasted good sawtimber, caused natural resource damage, economic hardships, and heartache. No way to live. Hope things get better.
How about stop selling raw logs offshore ? You are greedy to want that quick buck but that quick buck has repercussions down the line.
I agree. That's why I'm building a log cabin for a coloured homeless man starting over. White guys like you don't qualify.
funny because a 2x4 is 7 bucks at lowes
Old growth forests take hundreds of years to recover , too many going after too little thats left after the devastation caused by the greed and ignorance of the past and today
The forest is for the animals and plants qnd Not humans ffs.let it be!
Just like the oil and gas once you pay enough for the permits you will go to work. That will be a big number by the way.
Demand for timber is down. Demand down yet prices remain high; perhaps the timber companies should stop profiting at both ends? Floods are from forest fires - not clear cutting?
With forest fires it burns all vegetation way down. That’s why u see lots of giant rocks after a fire
Thanks to the mono crop pine forests they plant that go up in flames every summer. Thanks bc government.
Welome to NDP Land Folks !
Sue the rpfs they have insurance . They are the ones that allowed this
I’m not going to cry for people who profit in destroying nature like if it was there for their wallets.
Take your pick between the NDP and the Merritt Indian Band or both, that is what is killing Merritt off. The Band has always controlled the Nicola Valley and always will, to deny this is just folly. Remember when the Ranch Foreman went missing and was never found except his horse, strange things happen up in that big country.
You are correct Frank. Several people have disappeared in the Nicola Valley. Very strange indeed.
At least you guys can go Goldmining!
But more smart, start planting trees! I love Merrit, but you guys took all the trees down, compared with 20 years ago!
No gold near Merritt. Lots of coal, but of poor quality.
What could possibly go wrong with a coalition government of NDP and Green parties.
Canada can be self sufficient if we had the right leaders! But that wont happen because of our corrupt political system.
What can we do about the corruption Rob?
Alberta needs lots of people who want to work. Buck up and put your equipment to work elsewhere. And people need to step up and work away from home.
Yeah tell the companies who apparently can’t find anyone to start hiring people …I’ve applied to countless jobs at mines or oil and gas etc in BC, Alberta and the Yukon to operate heavy equipment, be a lube/maintenance tech, and even just labourer positions. All of which I’m qualified to do and have a decent amount of experience in but I’ve never heard back from them. I’ve offered to relocate too if need be.
@@BuckingandHuntingare you joking
@@DCrutch I wish I was. It’s been painful this past year
@BuckingandHunting Im a tradesman in alberta and my circle are all trades people in carpentry, electrician, painters, plumbing. We are are journeyman certified and are making bank in alberta. If your a skilled tradesman everyone i know is booking into next year and making bank $600-$1000 a day.
FunFact Hemps not that flammable.
firebrake filler ask a fireman
justine wants no logging , so there is no logging , Period!
You will own nothing and be happy.
biggest problem as always is government !
i dont know a single person how voted for EBBY to run a province !!!
Nobody voted for Premier Eby.
every time the NDP comes around the forestry sector suffers
Forestry that isnt being done sustainably isnt sustainable look at the differences in the machinery in those 50 years .
Forests in bc ar ruined because tree planting and herbicide and greed did it. Now fire every year
Did you honestly think that you could continue cutting forever ???
Where was the reforestation??? Where was the fire management???
Capitalism over sustainability never ends well 😢
Join the club, I told everybody not to vote Trudeau don't understand why everyone loves him, next thing you know im layed off working 12 years steady self employed no insurance I lost EVERYTHING. It's scary how fast your life savings go to rent and bills when you are out of work and have to take a different job for half the wage while inflation and carbon tax etc. , extremely painful and depressing to realize your life wasted but im over it just accept the peasant life after what Trudeau did.
But logging is sustainable right?.. Wood is the new wonder product for tall buildings.. Prices are still high.. Dead standing all over the place.. Shame on whoever/whatever is behind this 'log-jam' .. Unfuriating..