At 10:01 Doug talks about humility as the key to community. The Pentecostal church I was attending acquired a new young pastor who insisted that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was evidenced by speaking in tongues. I spoke to him privately and asked if he realized he was disenfranchising those who did not have the gift of speaking with tongues. He replied that he would continue to teach what he was teaching. Was I being proud by leaving that fellowship? Perhaps true humility insists I should stay . .?
You didn’t leave the fellowship, they left you. Wilson said this clear in his message. “It is about who you are striving for like-mindedness with.” It is not about slavish obedience, but a discerning one.
Good question...I think personally you were just simply being discerning...leaving is a choice sometimes we have to make. I left my church years ago even though I was quite involved for sometime. It was easy and tough at the same time. We need real men to lead us and sometimes they are just not at that church. I wasn't a member in the technical sense but I was committed and did my best. Not one elder or brother from that church came to find out why my wife and I left. Maybe it was too obvious but I might have considered rejoining had they shown some interest. The church is The Alliance founded by A B Simpson. AW Tower was part of the church back in the day...I think she has slipped a few notches since those days. Hope you find some good fellowship somewhere...God knows we need it. Shalom
Time to do a careful study on what was actually happening in that 1st century meeting. The tongues practiced in 21st century assemblies of professing Christians is not what was happening on the day of Pentecost.
Still a lot of things to puzzle out regarding the believers response to unfolding governmental dictates, but thankful a couple of elders from various assemblies voices are still being heard....I do remember feeling like a lamb without a shepherd in early 2020. The Washhington state assembly I used to be joined with is still requiring masks and seems to believe they must obey the dictates of their evil, baby butchering governor. Glad I got outta there when I did.
Hebrews 13:7 - Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their way of life, imitate their faith. Hebrews 13:17 - Obey your leaders and submit to them-for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account-so that they may do this with joy, not groaning; for this would be unhelpful for you. I have often in the past been told, even unto the point of the binding my conscience such that I was IN SIN for not becoming a member of a church (in this case, affirming to all the beliefs of that church including abiding by the MAN-MADE bylaws of that church and affirming membership to this church and this church alone). And the citation of the two above verses from Hebrews along with 1 Peter 5:1-3 ("Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock."), 1 Timothy 5:17 ("The elders who lead well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching."), and Numbers 1:1-4 ("Then the LORD spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tent of meeting, on the first of the second month, in the second year after they had come out of the land of Egypt, saying, “Take a census of all the congregation of the sons of Israel, by their families, by their fathers’ households, according to the number of names, every male, head by head from twenty years old and upward, whoever is able to go out to war in Israel, you and Aaron shall number them by their armies. “With you, moreover, there shall be a man of each tribe, each one head of his father’s household."), and others. But in many of the instances the context does not support membership in a single group of believers but to the universal church of Jesus Christ. All the the arguments about pastoral care and church discipline fall short since in every circumstance in Scripture it was not the 1st Church of Antioch or the 2nd Tabernacle of Berea that was performing the pastoral care or the due church discipline, but it was the servants of Christ no matter the location or municipality or edifice in which people gather. To make this as clear as possible, whether the church is an evangelical Lutheran, or a reformed Presbyterian, or fundamental Baptist, or an independent Free, if I, as a confessing Christian, gather in that church to worship the living Christ, BY DEFINITION, I MUST submit to the elders, leaders, pastors, of that congregation. To do otherwise is to mock the clear word of Scripture and to even blaspheme the holy, eternal God in heaven. There is NO joining A church there is ONLY joining THE church of the risen Lord, Christ Jesus. That, of course, does not preclude having an up-to-date role of the people and families that regularly congregate and worship at any given assembly. But it must be made clear, the leadership and the congregation of any given assembly of worshipers are completely failing if they do not inform any and every person that gathers with them that in so doing, they are by definition under that church leadership's authority. If this was made clear at the outset of anyone casually coming into a church just to "see what's up," all the false folks would be running for the door and the true flock remaining would be smaller but indeed truer. Plainly stated, the modern notion of church membership is divisive and un-Biblical, with the only true church membership being in Christ's universal church both militant and triumphant. I am sorry that this was a rambling mess of thoughts, but this issue does nothing but unnecessarily divide the bride. We should be reserving our theological energies to vigorously debate the real dividers within the body of Christ: baptism, the lords supper, justification, election, and the like. (Any arguments that abrogate God's clear word - woman leaders, homosexuality, divorce, fornication, abortion, and so on - are not debatable elements but disqualifiers from the faith unless acknowledge as sin and repented.) Maranatha!
Your post is interesting. Do you hold the same conviction given that the word "obey" in Heb 13:7, 17, is not from the militant term "hypakouō" "children obey your parents", but "peithō" which means: "to submit to the persuasiveness of the argument"? Though elders have authority, the nature of that authority is NOT like a parent over a child, nor a husband over his wife. The Greek words in Hebrews for obey, are not the same, nor kinda the same.
There is a difference between murder and killing. Which is why in the same book of Scripture we have both a prohibition of murder and prescription for death penalty.
Doug Wilson is such a helper preacher and teacher. From South Africa
ja I always take away something I can apply - heh heh - Could this be God's answer to a prayer for like mindedness
Always a pleasure listening to Pastor Doug.
Really good stuff. Thank you for posting this content. I'm greatly benefited from the wisdom that brother Doug provides for the church.
This was so good. Thanks for this!!
If there is someone in Lisbon Metropolitan Area in Portugal, would be great to meet.
At 10:01 Doug talks about humility as the key to community. The Pentecostal church I was attending acquired a new young pastor who insisted that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was evidenced by speaking in tongues. I spoke to him privately and asked if he realized he was disenfranchising those who did not have the gift of speaking with tongues. He replied that he would continue to teach what he was teaching. Was I being proud by leaving that fellowship? Perhaps true humility insists I should stay . .?
You didn’t leave the fellowship, they left you.
Wilson said this clear in his message. “It is about who you are striving for like-mindedness with.” It is not about slavish obedience, but a discerning one.
Good question...I think personally you were just simply being discerning...leaving is a choice sometimes we have to make. I left my church years ago even though I was quite involved for sometime. It was easy and tough at the same time. We need real men to lead us and sometimes they are just not at that church. I wasn't a member in the technical sense but I was committed and did my best. Not one elder or brother from that church came to find out why my wife and I left. Maybe it was too obvious but I might have considered rejoining had they shown some interest. The church is The Alliance founded by A B Simpson. AW Tower was part of the church back in the day...I think she has slipped a few notches since those days. Hope you find some good fellowship somewhere...God knows we need it. Shalom
Time to do a careful study on what was actually happening in that 1st century meeting.
The tongues practiced in 21st century assemblies of professing Christians is not what was happening on the day of Pentecost.
Amen! 🙏
Still a lot of things to puzzle out regarding the believers response to unfolding governmental dictates, but thankful a couple of elders from various assemblies voices are still being heard....I do remember feeling like a lamb without a shepherd in early 2020.
The Washhington state assembly I used to be joined with is still requiring masks and seems to believe they must obey the dictates of their evil, baby butchering governor. Glad I got outta there when I did.
Hebrews 13:7 - Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their way of life, imitate their faith.
Hebrews 13:17 - Obey your leaders and submit to them-for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account-so that they may do this with joy, not groaning; for this would be unhelpful for you.
I have often in the past been told, even unto the point of the binding my conscience such that I was IN SIN for not becoming a member of a church (in this case, affirming to all the beliefs of that church including abiding by the MAN-MADE bylaws of that church and affirming membership to this church and this church alone). And the citation of the two above verses from Hebrews along with 1 Peter 5:1-3 ("Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock."), 1 Timothy 5:17 ("The elders who lead well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching."), and Numbers 1:1-4 ("Then the LORD spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tent of meeting, on the first of the second month, in the second year after they had come out of the land of Egypt, saying, “Take a census of all the congregation of the sons of Israel, by their families, by their fathers’ households, according to the number of names, every male, head by head from twenty years old and upward, whoever is able to go out to war in Israel, you and Aaron shall number them by their armies. “With you, moreover, there shall be a man of each tribe, each one head of his father’s household."), and others.
But in many of the instances the context does not support membership in a single group of believers but to the universal church of Jesus Christ. All the the arguments about pastoral care and church discipline fall short since in every circumstance in Scripture it was not the 1st Church of Antioch or the 2nd Tabernacle of Berea that was performing the pastoral care or the due church discipline, but it was the servants of Christ no matter the location or municipality or edifice in which people gather.
To make this as clear as possible, whether the church is an evangelical Lutheran, or a reformed Presbyterian, or fundamental Baptist, or an independent Free, if I, as a confessing Christian, gather in that church to worship the living Christ, BY DEFINITION, I MUST submit to the elders, leaders, pastors, of that congregation. To do otherwise is to mock the clear word of Scripture and to even blaspheme the holy, eternal God in heaven. There is NO joining A church there is ONLY joining THE church of the risen Lord, Christ Jesus.
That, of course, does not preclude having an up-to-date role of the people and families that regularly congregate and worship at any given assembly. But it must be made clear, the leadership and the congregation of any given assembly of worshipers are completely failing if they do not inform any and every person that gathers with them that in so doing, they are by definition under that church leadership's authority. If this was made clear at the outset of anyone casually coming into a church just to "see what's up," all the false folks would be running for the door and the true flock remaining would be smaller but indeed truer.
Plainly stated, the modern notion of church membership is divisive and un-Biblical, with the only true church membership being in Christ's universal church both militant and triumphant.
I am sorry that this was a rambling mess of thoughts, but this issue does nothing but unnecessarily divide the bride. We should be reserving our theological energies to vigorously debate the real dividers within the body of Christ: baptism, the lords supper, justification, election, and the like. (Any arguments that abrogate God's clear word - woman leaders, homosexuality, divorce, fornication, abortion, and so on - are not debatable elements but disqualifiers from the faith unless acknowledge as sin and repented.)
Maranatha!
Your post is interesting.
Do you hold the same conviction given that the word "obey" in Heb 13:7, 17, is not from the militant term "hypakouō" "children obey your parents", but "peithō" which means: "to submit to the persuasiveness of the argument"?
Though elders have authority, the nature of that authority is NOT like a parent over a child, nor a husband over his wife. The Greek words in Hebrews for obey, are not the same, nor kinda the same.
Nice writings plus most churches are 501 c 3 that is a nonprofit corporation a dead body corpus juris secundum
So, to been clear, Thou shall not kill is open to interpetattion? Warr is ok? Capital punishment? Hypocrits
There is a difference between murder and killing. Which is why in the same book of Scripture we have both a prohibition of murder and prescription for death penalty.
Jesus is the head of the Church. Not man.