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😭 The SYSTEM is actually BROKEN.. || Gran Turismo 7
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- čas přidán 13. 07. 2024
- This week we have a tuning race with Daily Race A and 420pp... and we've quickly seen how broken the race can be... lets dig deeper and I share my honest take on the system which I've experienced since it's introduction in Gran Turismo 5!
...Enjoy :)
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The 0-0.25 IS IT'S QUARTER MILE TIME not 0-25mph and the 0-0.62 miles IS IT'S O-1000M (1Km) TIME
Was just gonna comment that haha... To be fair, the way it's written is a little bit confusing, especially when expecting a speed one accelerates to
Was just gonna comment that haha... To be fair, the way it's written is a little bit confusing, especially when expecting a speed one accelerates to
Hi Tidgney. The reason why the PP doesn't seem to change much with the engine swap is due to the removal of the transmission in the PP calculation. In short, the game runs a simulation(1) using the stock ratios of what ever transmission type you use (stock, low, high, custom manual, custom racing). Since, for these kei cars(2), the custom manual/racing transmission is geared much shorter the the stock transmission, and the car was intended to be driven with modest power, it makes sense that the final top speed of the custom manual/racing transmission would be much, much lower than the stock transmission (in this case, 5th gear is roughly 162kph or 101mph). It wouldn't make sense to have a 180mph 5th gear on a car with 64hp. This is what you saw as soon as you selected the racing transmission, the game thinks that the car has a slow top speed. Now that the car is completely top speed limited, power makes a minimal impact to the PP, only affecting it by increasing it's acceleration up to that limited top speed. Tying this back to the beginning, now that the game lets you add power with little PP change you can extend the gears allowing for a higher top speed, and the game is none the wiser, since it uses the standard ratios of a given transmission type. This is what you saw at 7:36. There was no change after increasing the top speed. Same thing for the other car.
(1)I assume what you mean at 2:00 by "formula-based" is that the game runs the simulation, compiles the results from the simulation (acceleration figures, rotational-g data, etc.), takes those along with other stats of the car, then plugs them into a formula to compute the PP. The PP calculation cannot be purely formula based because upgrade parts that are supposed to increase customization or outright performance affect PP in different ways. In GT5 and GT6, an upgrade part always increased the PP. Different upgrade levels (S1, S2, S3, etc.) increased the PP by various amounts, that's what makes the most sense. However when you added the differential or transmission, upgrades that should increase the PP, it goes down. This doesn't make any sense when you approach this from the standpoint of a simple equation (ie. can't add a positive number to a simple function then have your output decrease all of a sudden. There are exceptions to this, but this goes for simple equations, like one that could be used to calculate PP 😁). There are some proofs on YT of the simulation which are pretty interesting 😄
(2) 18:28 This assumption does not hold for all engine swapped cars, but can hold for non-swapped cars. It's just cars which have this same "standard custom transmission ratios are too slow" problem. To my knowledge, the cars that have this issue are:
- Suzuki Jimny (K14C)
- Suzuki Cappuccino (13B)
- Honda Beat (K20)
- Ford Mustang Boss 429 (No Swap)
Note: Edge cases can show up with the use of different parts. For this car, the ECU at 18:59 is one of them, and I believe the High Lift Cams S is another one too but it depends on what other parts are on the car. This is probably because those parts increase the redline which increases the top speed without affecting the gear ratios. You are correct at 18:05 when you mention that each car has a "hard coded ... speed," it's just that the speed is based off of the transmission. Hopefully all of this is clear, I love diving into the PP system and seeing what comes out of it, it's really the only thing I have time to do now! 😅
100% perfect explanation
Appreciate the detailed comment Pingu!
Timestamps:
0:12 - Daily Race A Situation
3:08 - Buying a Jimny and tuning it (No Engine Swap)
9:33 - Buying a Jimny and tuning it (Engine Swap)
16:02 - Time Trial with the Jimny (No Engine Swap)
17:11 - Time Trial with the Jimny (Engine Swap)
18:10 - Settings Breakdown
19:34 - More Shop Shenanigans!
20:00 - More Setup Breakdown
20:26 - Daily Race with the Jimny (Engine Swap)
24:20 - Conclusions and Outro
for gr3 the bmw m6 and nissan gtr 18' always become the meta when there's tuning which eliminates other cars. Also, when there's tuning you have to make the car as fast as you can irrespective of how stable and predictable the car is which isn't fun or realistic. tuning is just a barrier to entry and your setup doesn't get saved between daily races. Overall, it's just not fun
It doesnt say 0-0.25 mph. Thats its quarter mile time 15:14
So in this case, the black jimny at 15:14 does the quarter mile in 13 second
Apologies you are right, not sure why I read it as MPH!
I personally think that the 600pp Tomahawk exploit really compromised the PP system because it then meant that suspension or transmission tuning do nothing for the PP of the car
I was surprised they were using PP because as like you said the PP system is broken and was broken from the launch of GT7.
The suspension tune up is great fun but instead of PP its better to have a minimum weight and a maximum BHP. That's all you need. We've had great tuning races with just those 2 parameters of BHP and weight limitations.
I tuned a group 2 car to 799PP for the 800 series, changing the livery somehow put it over the PP cap, no idea why.
Was it those 3 cars listed?:
Nissan GT-R GT500 '16
Honda NSX Concept-GT '16
Lexus RC F GT500 '16
Those 3 can be fitted with 2 different wings
@@kevinsomosot9976 Hey thanks you nailed it, I didn't see the suttle change in the rare wing.. not really fan of the PP system I think its better for plebs like me than it was in GT6 though
In GT6, the PP system was based off of three things only if I remember correctly. It was horsepower, weight, and downforce. Not even tires had an effect on it. I used to host 550pp, 600pp, and 650pp, and as long as we kept the race cars separate from the street cars, it was usually very balanced. There were a few exceptions of course, and we knew exactly which cars we had to ban. But I think GT7 would be way more balanced with that system if they simplified it. I believe that would be the case because I like to host rooms where I set weight and horsepower restrictions for street cars, and for the most part, they run pretty darn similar.
Gt6 online is alive and very active if you want to go back and enjoy it you'll be welcomed (beware the 500pipi lobbies)
@@tempessst I actually had no idea it was still going. Nice.
@@rekabla you need to mod your ps3 for it to work tho lol, i would say thats a good thing since you can ramp up the fan speed to 40% and the game runs at a stable 1080p60fps
When you can't manipulate downforce for example minimum front and max back the only other way to break the PP system is due to it's power and TYRE COMPOUND. Thats why when you were adding performance parts for more power your pp was going down as essentially you were giving it less traction with more power. This shows in your distance times compared to the 62-93mph times, they don't match up at all. This also shows in your rotational G force figures becoming 0 at 75mph and 150mph. The best way to fix all of this is to make it HP and weight restricted races rather than PP
I think they broke it themselves when people were bugging the tomahawk to get the PP down to do the Tokyo race years ago. They changed the gearbox to not affect PP and who knows what else they changed. PP has always been bugged in GT7.
Great vid Tidge. A vid about the hidden tuning secrets of GR3 and 4 would be great!
Funny, Pogodriver is a RL friend of mine. I will explain to him about his settup later today.
Thank you for digging into this issue. Sorry for complaining in the comment of the short vid.
I don't mind complaining in the comments, as longs its constructive and something I can review (If its about the game) or feedback for me to improve on 😊
The carbon drive shaft reduces rotating mass, allowing a driveline to not inhibit the initial & sustained revs of the engine... On the engine swap, I experimented with a Silvia TC VS. an engine swap Silvia, same PP, I almost lapped the TC using the swap vehicle
The best pp system would be telling a server to send sophy around every track at 200 times speed a few times for each new set up
It's a mechanic that's been broken since day 1 of the game, I'm afraid. They can always patch it but inevitably the community will expose the newest flaw in the system every time they try to fix it. It's such a shame since it really looks like a significant amount of time and resources was put into developing it 💔
100%, I said that even before GT7. As someone else said there was a time in GT6 you could get the oil so bad then you could enter an LMP1 car into a 500pp race haha.
The carbon propeller shaft is lighter so it requires so it rotates quicker and easier which improves acceleration and response which is why it doesnt show up. If you were to add and remove in the car settings you should in theory see better acceleration times. However if you have already broke the pp you prob wont see anything
Great video, Tidg exploses it again!
Also the fact that suspension changes don't affect the PP is crazy since you are changing the performance of the vehicle
People were exploiting the system through suspension changes which was mainly enabling you to use the tomahawk on the 600pp tokyo race so they removed it
This race could be a test to see how broken it is, and what can be done to remedy the issue.. (obv just remove pp ratings) great vid. Much needed
Or turn on "Allow Engine Swaps: Off".
PD just create engine swap daily races so tuners can use the cars online.
If PD would stay to only one unit system, they could fix the problem of many abuses. Its a same problem in other games that uses both metrical and imperial system for the user to choose.
I have great memories of GT5 multiplayer lobbies, the PP system worked decently for casual fun 😊
It's worth looking at how the power and torque curves are affected by different parts. The Semi-Racing exhaust, for example, gives me a higher PP rating than a Racing exhaust. Looking at the curves, the Semi-Racing exhaust provides max torque at lower rpm than a Racing one. Guess this is affecting the PP calculation somehow.
It's a very good point
I also feel like there’s another point that PD might be trying to prove… there is a lot of noise from the community when there is a specific car and race combo that people just don’t want to play ball with… a good example was the gr3 at redbull ring on a cold surface. If you wanted to be competitive there was really only 1 car. Instead of just throwing on a livery and joining the race, a lot of people made it a point to try other combos and drive overly aggressively. Why not just accept the weeks challenge and join the race?
I think PP is good enough for the base game (outside of engine swaps is that why they were so hard to get 🤔). I don't understand why they don't just use weight and bhp limitations like pretty much all racing leagues (usually done by displacement but bhp is close enough approximation)
Not sure if it works the same as in Forza Horizon 5, but they had a similar problem when allowing a 4 speed 'drift' gearbox to be added to an electric, normally 1 gear car - the Raesar Tachyon I believe.
The PP system in FH5 (PI) was calculated on the default gearbox gear ratios - and the drift gearbox default settings had the gears all 'scrunched' together so high speed were not possible. When you then stretched out the gears, the PI number did not change, but the gearing became sensible.
At about 14.20 in the video, you start looking at the top speeds (some showing 0) and then quickly bring up a gearing graph very quickly - but I could not see all of it. Not saying this is the reason, but the original default changeable gearbox settings may well restrict the top speed giving it the lower PP.
Certainly not saying this is the case and apologies if some of the teminology not right, but it looks rather similar. In FH5 the car in question was baaned from online events and leaderboards as by doing the gearbox swap, it reduced the PI score by 25-30%.
TLDR - I think it's to do with the customizable gearbox having far too short default gear ratios restricting the top speed, thus lowering the PI number
The type of gearbox effects PP however speed and ratio's has no effect in GT7
@@PatSharpsMullett I'm not sure I've explained it very well. When Tidge opens the gear ratio graph at 14:20 or so, the gearing is very close together, and it looks to me as though this has therefore set a low maximum speed based on thsi default gearing. The PI system is 'fooled' into thinking the top speed of the car is low, especially when compared to the standard gearbox, so reduces the PP - despite us all knowing that should not be the case.
@@alanbradbury2313 No you did matey. The PP system only recognises the type of gearbox applied. Whatever PP applies when whichever gearbox is apllied has a fixed PP associated with it. It also has a default top speed and gear ratios attached to each gearbox which varies per car. Any change of top speed or ratios on any gearbox effects the PP after the gearbox has been selected. When you swap gearboxes you'll notice the acceleration times are effected which is why there is a change in PP. There are a few factors to this which you have partly alluded to and this is car dependant
I've re read since you edited. At 14.20 in the video it actually has nothing to do with the cars top speed. It's the g force the car can generate turning at said speed. Because of the tyre compound and the amount of power it is unable to calculate the g. The higher the G the better the car takes turns. This is obviously not completely correct though as suspension set up doesn't effect the PP however it is a decent guide to give you an idea of the cars ability to turn at speed. You'll notice on the engine swap once you start adding parts the PP goes down when it should be going up. It's because when your adding more power or making it lighter you're increasing the loss of traction in the systems eyes.
You should only be able to tune suspension, diff and brake balance. Buying stuff and sticking it on the car doesn't add anything meaningful to race
Hi tidgney. The PP system was great at launch. They took it away when the PP system was used for grinding. It was turned off for when you adjusted the suspension and diff. Maybe it's time for it to be turned on again.
This was the best daily race in a long while. I won every race with a pole position and fastest lap 😂❤🎉
I wonder what could be an alternative? How to compare cars for a race? Just BHP may not be sufficient as a well balanced race car is way quicker than a hellcat let’s say. What other way can be to compare cars using one metric?
From P8 toP3 in less than 10 seconds.
Power should be, less power if you choose softer tires, and more power if you use hard tires
Crazy idea! How about using sophy ai in the background to simulate a lap time with the given car's setup. Like it doesn't have to show you the simulation, it just runs whenever you make a change to a car's setup.
That would mean of course a different pp point for each track, but that's kind of a benefit as well.
I don't know if that's possible at all coding wise, but to me pp point system should represent how fast a car can go around a circuit. Right now it doesnt mean anything.
It's a good idea but I'm not sure how long that would take to do (In terms of Sophy running the simulation etc.)
Vehicles should be standard across all daily race/trials. Battle of the drivers in equal machinery, not battle of finding the magic setting to gain free time.
You sound exactly like the streamers that cried aboot the Gr4/3 races at launch having tuning available. How do you think racing works in the real world (aside from the like 6 series where the league keeps all the cars instead of the teams) what do you think those guys in the pit box with them tools working on the car are doing?
I'm currently sixth place worldwide with a clean lap, I've done enough testing to agree that the pp system is very broken.
Appreciate you're comment Barrett! Also a big thankyou for sharing your setup so quickly on the Monday!
Thanks for the daily race help. This week's races are not my cup of tea. By chance, do you know of a site that list the future daily races. kind of wanted to practice the next weeks tracks early. HELP PLEASE>>>lol
No, people definitely didn't like it if you are 3x faster then they are. I know 'cause I experienced it on Monday. Swapped did the tune and flew by the ones that didn't tune (enough) several times. I say several times and that was one me, not knowing how to stop without loosing control. After the 8th such pass, guys were so frustrated they'd try to sideswipe me the second I'd pass them. Can't actually fault them for it.
HEYYYYY 1.49 is out and Guess what…….you guessed it.
Lol i already knew it was bad for this thing when the PP was increasing after i took parts off the car, hp going down PP going up
The whole game's a bit dense sometimes, you get stopped if you don't have the right tyres on even if you have them in your garage, yet say you're allowed Race Med, Inter and Wets, it doesn't have a problem if you have left Inters or wets on front and race rear. Things like that need to be looked at.
In GT Sport it would automatically apply and save the required tyres when joining a race. So many features that GT7 lost for no reason.
14:18 Stability and Rotational G are mostly affected by suspension. These concern performance in corners versus straight up speed. 0.00 stability and Gs is actually a bad thing.
ridiculous!! Tuning shouldn't be a part of Dailies until it's 109% fixed! I've not bothered even attempting to try this! 😔
yeah that been the issue all week with pp system is just broken i never get a top 100 time but did this week for some reason or another not only that wheels and tyres sizes dont affect the pp either witch is strange as your essecaly expanding the tyres for better grip and so on the whole thing needs a complete reboot to something that works
Do you think this race was built to grind an axe? It seems that a 420pp jimny just randomly being this weeks car seems like they knew what they were doing and they may be trying to make a point to the community. What’s the point?
I found the glitch in this daily race on accident lol
Who doesn't buy the ECU before any other power upgrades?
👏, cheers Tidge, 😊.
Like deployed 👍
😎🎙🏎✅️
Top 20 / 326hp on Jimmy swap. 50.1 all time
Also the fully customizable manual transmission from the semi-racing page. Is worth less PP than the one from the racing page. Even though they are functionally identical.
There is a quicker gear change which means quicker acceleration times so when you haven't broke the pp system the full racing will increase pp. when you add it and you have broke the pp it will likely reduce the pp. In this specific case its down to the tyre compound not being able to handle the power so adding the full racing transmission decreases the pp as it makes it even more unmanageable in the eyes of the pp system
Helical cut H-pattern is the same as straight cut sequential?
Need level 50 to do swap engine... A newbe cant race here
people not knowing how to tune, doesnt mean tuning is broken.
Also if we a only do a full tuning race every couple months, sport mode driver can not figure it out. Also some of prio full tuning races have been way better balanced than this week, like the front wheel drives at BLue moon race.
I do think the PP is broken, but doing it by max HP and min weight is far better way than PP.
The set up races in Gr4/gr3 has been far better balanced. Especially in Gr4 setups seems to bring a much bigger diversity to field.
I do think that next time they do a full tuning race that swaps are potentially allowed people less than Level 50 should have access to those swaps for that week. I actually though driving the Jiminy was fun, but racing it was not as you said.
Upgrades are lowering PP of the car.
TUNING IS BROKEN.
It's not really broken per se, it's just the wrong tool (on its own) for getting balanced racing.
No racing series relies on a single metric to balance car performance, so expecting the PP system to do so will always be a pipedream.
And still, it includes so many factors in the calculation that the value loses context. It needs to be supported with other limits to reintroduce it.
@@ATR-Bigoz*slaps on power upgrades and keeps slippy tyres and is confused why when the power can't get to the ground and stay there, causing the numbers to go down*
Wide body for 5k Cr is actually a very good deal
I think that the Rotational Gs stat is not an indicator of possible vehicle speed, but the turning force it can achieve at the given speed; hence 'rotational'. Nonetheless, there's no doubt the PP system doesn't work.
so.. how I understand this, when you swap to a racing engine, some upgradable parts are beig upgraded automatically and we dont see that. And when installing engine parts to a such swapped engine, some parts even lowers pp because the installed parts is somewhat worse than it is in the swapped engine... I think on lower tier engines that does not apply. But I noticed this a few weeks ago already when doing engine swaps.
Carbon driveshaft changes the RPM, your engine revs higher
It doesn't rev higher however it increases how quickly the revs go up which enables it to accelerate quicker
Set ups, tuning and PP system in GT7 - useless nonsense.
so thats how to get around pp use parts to drop it to allow for bhp increases
The Jimny race is a joke, if you aren't level 50 you can't get the new engine so you're down nearly 10 seconds a lap even when maxed out with everything else.
They should just do away with PP and base everything on HP
I do not believe the issue is a bug I hypothesize that it is the people who are entering these parts on to the cars maybe car enthusiasts but they have no idea on Earth what that part does to the car in terms of way of coding I have no idea I don't know anything about coding but it will all come down to a math formula if it is not entered correctly what the part does to the car it's not going to be the correct the way it it manifests itself on the handling model
What is this PP broken again
Tuning in GT7 is pointless as you've just shown, it would work if there were 3 or 4 changes you could make that would offset top speed against cornering or acceleration against brake strength, differences that would change the car but not overall performance in lap time.
The lobbies do the same. Game is just not fun anymore.
Mate, you still didn't realise that most of us paid full price for the game and after two years we are still testers for thair so called game?
All of you streamers need to make some sort of union and start be LOUD what PD is doing (actually, not doing)!
Physics chanching for fourth time, "new (old) cars", no new tracks, no fix for penalty system,,....
I paid full price 👀, and there is constant feedback given to PD in the background
Tuning system is just broken and not realistic at all
stooopid game
get forza instead