Here’s why FFXIV Players are Bad
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- čas přidán 28. 12. 2023
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It shouldn’t be this hard to get access to the resources you need to earn to play the game at a high enough level to properly clear high-end content. People should have a safe entry to learning core concepts. This won't help everybody, but it will definitely increase the odds! Please, add additional learning tools to the game!
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The problem with having a tutorial that's supposed to teach you a proper rotation is that every expansion (and sometimes even mid expansion) skills are added, removed, retooled, or completely reworked, etc, which means every time they change a job they have to completely redo the tutorial. If anything that would just encourage even further job homogenization and stagnation.
This is a very valid point!
@@RinBanana Considering this, they could probably make a video series, similar to the starter guide videos they made last year, that cover everything you mention and can branch off into job-specific info in later videos. They can tie a reward into watching them, like gear coffers with a level-appropriate dungeon set or an "even newer brand-new ring" or something, then by the end of them have a list of recommended trials and instances that have the mechanics that they covered/make a new "training" roulette that have instances with important mechanics to learn. And, because they're videos and not complete in-game scenarios, it shouldn't be so hard to update every expansion when things are added/removed.
@@tisLatte No one likes doing homework, especially when it involves material that isn't in the game itself. Video tutorials are weaker than hands-on demonstrations because it's a passive form of providing data. If you just throw videos at people, even if it's in the client, some people's eyes will just glaze over.
Yoshi P has said himself this is a big reason they decided not to do job rotation tutorials
* Astro jobs quests still mentioning Nocturnal Sect has entered the chat *
I'm not convinced this would change much unless it was made mandatory (like what you suggested) or there was a really good reward locked behind it, like the exp ring. A lot of people just skip hall of novice, don't complete it, or don't even know it exists.
I also think if this was implemented it should be fully voice acted, I think people would internalize the concepts better if it was.
I agree, anything like this would have to be mandatory or no one would do it. Take sky, stone, sea for example, most people don't even know that's in the game or what it's even for. Though it's not the best, it's at least a bare bones way of letting you know if you're doing enough damage or not. If used correctly this could partially do what's suggested in this video.
Oh and it's 2023 almost 2024, they need to make every quest fully voiced, at least from DT and onward. It's an extremely common thing for games to have, especially AAA ones.
@@oEXTRA to my knowledge most games that are fully voiced on all quests aren't translated into several languages. Especially since every expansion would require those additions. For single player games or mmos in one or two languages, sure that would great. For an mmo like ff14 that iirc is at least translated into six languages, that's expensive and excessive.
@@stormkeeper1741 as I said, AAA games already do this, in multiple languages as well. On top of this, most those other AAA games don't have a monthly subscription based system (that also has a cash shop). So if they can find a way to fully voice act their games at one time fees (base game, DLC if any), I'm sure SE can with this incredibly successful game (critically AND financially).
EDIT: I thought I wrote main quest in my original. At the bare minimum the MSQ needs to be fully voiced. Side quests are whatever but even then they could definitely do it since it's pretty common in AAA games.
@@oEXTRA would take too long in development and a lot of voice actors died in the 10 years.
@@azadalamiq RIP to those who passed. It can't be too time consuming if just about every AAA these days manage to do it.
I think the Hall of Novices should not be skippable and you should have to complete the full thing to progress the MSQ. If you buy a skip to skip ARR, it should force you to do the Hall of Novices before you can progress with whatever expansion you skipped to. It takes all of 10 minutes to do so it doesn't eat your time away. It should also force it before you can use the duty finder in any role you haven't completed it in yet.
If that was a thing people might just drop the game. I know i would 😂
I skipped hall of novices. Guess what I just do end game raids for fun.
If I was forced to do that hall of novices, I'd just quit and find a new game.
hall of novice pops up when you job skip. Even if you dud it before just so you know.
@@vincentlee7359dude, hall of the novice takes like 15 minutes to complete, no sane person would quit over that.
@@shawnscouten5184 guess I'm not sane, oh well. No one wants forced content
@@vincentlee7359 Have you dropped every game with a tutorial then?
Actually, Reaper and Sage does offer that in their first job quest sorta if I remember them correctly. May be update the quest for other job to do the same would be a debut
Sage tells you to apply Kardia but does a piss poor job of explaining what that does going by the number of sages that straight up ignore Kardia.
@@24hr-Gaming 💯
@@24hr-Gaming THIS I ACTUALLY WAS MORE CONFUSED ON SAGE AFTER THE QUEST
This seems like a good idea, but I think the major issue is the 14 team's penchant to change up how jobs operate, like Astro's constant changes for example. The hall of the novice missions, while great for beginners, have also been the same since they were created if I remember correctly.
I'm sure there would be developmental will to keep the "Hall of the Experts" updated, but it might end up being something shoved to the side if jobs keep getting reworked like they do.
in reality they should probably stop reworking jobs as much as they do. some jobs are just outright difficult to learn and play, and a hall of the novice that actually teaches the basic mechanics of the job, or a "hall of the experianced" and "a hall of the expert" that teaches the skills you get, would be nice. but we also have lost all our job quests that kinda played the roll of teaching the player how to actually play their job. those went away in shadowbringers. if we could bring back just basic job quests to learn how the job works, it would be nice, but those more or less just dump info and story on you so yeah...
I'm not sure if learning rotations needs to be a tutorial, what needs to happen is for ability progression to make sense, like was discussed in the previous video. If there is a tutorial that would help facilitate learning rotations I think one for weaving would be good. Mostly because people new to MMO's in general probably aren't familiar with the concept of a global cooldown, or may be but came from a game that doesn't have OGcD's in them.
A lot of the pop-up tutorials are also disgustingly out of date and reference mechanics and such that were changed or removed from the game before I started playing. Or are so cryptic as to not be very helpful to learning how new abilities work when you unlock them.
It really feels like the devs don't really sanity check things, regardless of whether it's a new class or a rework. Although I've only really experienced summoner in two iterations. Both of them were reworked versions and run the gambit from hellish to play alone cause you have no damage and the pets can't aggro things, to whatever is going on with them now that feels like a completely incoherent mess. I'm trying to relearn the class on a new character and it's not as bad as before, but man it does not feel good to play at all.
Another problem that I see is the language. Not everyone speaks English, Japanese, German and French. In my case I speak Castilian or Spanish. For one reason or another I had to learn English on the job, both writing and speaking it. For people who don't know those languages, it's going to make something difficult for those people.
We definitely need more tutorials in the game, especialy at level threshold like 50-60-70-80-90 and next expansion 100,,that simply goes through mechanics, standard type markers in raids and explains atleast at the foundation level what your abilities do, that you have learned in the past few levels and a starter, how to utilize them. The amount of people even at max level, who can't recognize a stack marker, not using their mits or ignoring half of their abilities is way too high, no wonder the bar to entry into Extreme and Savage is so high. The game does poorly when it comes to teaching people or, does not realy want to punish them for not learning and avoiding to force them to adapt and learn.
I agree - it doesn't necessarily need to be some big intense thing, even something as simple as accessible solo duties or even an in-game grimoire that teaches these mechanics and job fundamentals that people have access to would be super welcome to me. I know that a lot of players struggle with things like tank or healer anxiety, and having an extra step in which they can practise a little and know "what i've learned is the base knowledge I need" before they queue into a duty for the first time on it
we all have that one friend that when you mention something that they should have, that go "what's that..." like, please for the love of god learn your class, and pay attentiont to what skills you have an CONSTANTLY reorganize and optimize your hotbars. that's the other thing i get annoyed with, the way the game works, it just dumps thing on your hotbars, if there was a bas standardized way the game organized them, it would be far easier to just go "hey in this section this skill" or something like that.
I think there's two parts to this. I absolutely agree the game needs to do a better job at teaching. The reworked dungeons do better at this than they previously did, however there's barely any punishment for not doing a mechanic correctly. Stack markers and other aoe's barely do any damage, so even if the stack is taken solo or is missing people, nobody dies so no lesson is learned. A vuln stack or damage down also means next to nothing to someone just going through MSQ. If we had more bosses like the second one in Bardam's Mettle that specifically taught mechanics or maybe had an emphasis on doing a correct rotation then things would be different. Even in normal raids, people can mess up a lot of things and make it through just fine. Things need to be more punishing and they definitely can without being too punishing.
The second part to this, where the game is not at fault, is that the people that continually mess things up and can't clear content have every resource available to them that the hardcore raiders have. While it sucks that this stuff is not available in the game, that's just the reality of how it's always been and people refusing to actually utilize the resources is on them. Anyone that actually WANTS to get better has access to more than enough resources to do so and will always get better. Just for clarification, I'm not referring to addons or plugins. Console players can clear the hardest content in the game playing vanilla as long as they work towards it.
@@rfygband Pretty much this, more or less. The game's barrier of entry should be as low as possible so that as many people can come into the game and see if it's something they want to invest time into. While I do agree that there should be more baseline information about basic mechanics and basic tells present in the game, it is sort of there in the form of extremely irrelevant, and optional, content (Guildhest). The other problem is that, as you say, Normal Raids/Normal Trials are so low risk that players will basically always make it to the end which will then immediately unlock the higher difficulty version of the fight. I personally think that Extremes and Savages should have higher burden of entry through a required number of clears of their Normal version to unlock the higher difficulty. It comes at a bit of an inconvenience to high-end raiders but if Savage continues to be 1 week delayed for the foreseeable future then it's largely trivial to reach the requirement. This puts the burden onto the player to become more invested in the game they're playing, to learn more about it, and to improve within their means via practice in the field.
And being an MMO, the game inherently thrived on it's player base sharing information, tips, and tricks with each other by word of mouth, blog post, forum thread, or video. That doesn't mean the game should give no information, just that it needs to supply the minimum amount necessary to garner some interest in the more complex aspects of the game. And for higher end content, you make those players practice cause the ones who won't invest the meager amounts of time necessary to learn/practice what they need to know will possibly quit before making it to the high-end content (aka the "you don't pay my sub" players). The ones who are much more likely to stick around will invest more time into learning and practicing because they would want/welcome the challenge because they would then actually enjoy the game.
Yes there are the social players, they are an entirely different breed of people. But they still would need to know how to play the game, cause how else are they going to get all that good glam they want to wear to the clubs and venues and whatnots. And there are a not insignificant number of those players who are very good at the game.
Yeah this is what I think as well. Though I might space them out differently to become available just before a batch of new target markers are going to be encountered rather than at the expansions max level, that way it isn't overwhelming to learn. I can't remember when or if markers other than line/cone/circle show up in base ARR, but a lot of stacking/arrow mechanics are extremely opaque to me until someone flat out tells me if I need to run it to or away from the rest of the party.
All that said as I get further into the game it is getting somewhat better at "teaching" mechanics in dungeons before you get to more serious content, but it is very difficult for me. I dropped the game before finishing ARR originally, but came back this year and am in stormblood now. Some markers/debuffs have been really baffling to me without looking for resources outside the game, and since I'm doing "old" content it can be really nerve wracking to reach a new mechanics, or worse a whole battery of them.
Good video, but I think the expectation in almost every game's 'endgame' is that you're going to learn from peers rather than from the game itself. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing either as it helps to build communities, even if it can result in some people getting a bit carried away with themselves and being the expert (whether that's a community about job-specific play or encounter-specific play, e.g. Eureka or Ultimates). I think there should be more tutorial style scenarios which handle mechanics/indicators but I'm not sure about class/job specific workshops.
Of course, this doesn't get away from the fact that some people will literally avoid this type of thing because they think they know better, and those are the worst people to end up in a group with anyway.
I think no matter what they implement, there will always be good and bad players, and people will always complain about it. The best thing to do is find like-minded people and only play with them if it bothers you so much. Going into pf or roulettes with the expectation, everyone will be good is unrealistic.
There will never be a world in which every player is good! Nor should there be. It's more about having tools accessible in a nice, categorised way for players to learn comfily should they want to.
Yes and No.
if I join a PF for a reclear for anything, be that Savage or Unreal, I can expect people to know the fight enough to not eat absolute glue.
the amount of players i've seen not stretching their tethers in Thordan Unreal is stupid, they die to the 1st downtime mechanic (the drop AOE puddle stretch tether soak tower)
if i'm the 1 making the party I give everyone 2 shots, if you fuck up the same shit again, i'll kick you and even blacklist you if you ate shit along the way, people excuse their shitty gameplay way too much, if you're learning the fight in PF, fair game, but even then, you learn at a reasonable pace, not hold 7 others back because you're learning to slow that it's insane.
PF is a bit more controlled of an environment in terms of playing with randoms. Yes, you get varying levels of skill, but you also have to abide by the party leader’s requirements or they have the right to kick you. I wouldn’t dismiss someone in a DF duty unless they are actively trolling or AFK/offline, but I would absolutely kick someone who isn’t ready to farm/get to the prog point after giving them dozens of chances. I’m not expecting a speedkill in PF, but I am expecting to at least be able to do the content.
I agree with this. Rinon I believe only ever raids and cares nothing else about the game. He isn't wrong but I feel he could be over obsessing over this issue.
If you want a world of good players you have create that world yourself and be the hero it needs be the teacher for your own partys and carry your team of 7 players yourself 8
i think bardams mettle was meant to teach mechanics language as stormblood was when they added jump potions but i think they need an updated one. maybe make a dungeon where trusts are compulsary so you cant get carried by more experienced players
The endwalker 87(?) trial has trust so I did it with npcs and you’re very on the money. Not having players to carry me forced me to learn mechanics, and honestly I was kinda mad this was the first time in the whole game I got to really learn anything
I dunno, trusts and duty support may work for DPS/Healer, but I got actively worse as a tank during them. With how wildly it swings whether you can pull more than one pack, their pathfinding issues once you do, and how they focus one mob at a time, you just kind of fall into the rhythm of pulling one pack at a time, which doesn't even require a mitigation cd. I've never been a worse tank than when I pushed through the msq dungeons on duty support.
The level 64 dungeon isnt trying to teach you mechanics lmao.
Bardam's mettle did not teach mechanics too well, given it's far cooler when you do it in duty support because you actually get to attempt the trial alongside the npcs but also duty support npcs are braindead and do not know how to do mechanics themselves. They will split up when towers appear and it took me the longest time to figure out you need to all go to the same one to share the damage
yeah tbh I think a trust run of a dungeon that has it should be the required "first" run for any new dungeon you unlock. slower? yes. more punishing? also yes - because if you fuck up, that's it, start the boss over boyo, no second chances for you!
TL:DR - FF14 is designed in a way to make the average player significantly more skilled at the game than any other MMO. This also means that the bad players are significantly worse than every other MMO's bad players. The accessibility and wide reaching casual content also does not exclude bad players from enjoying the game, so there is significantly more of them. While other MMOs would just force bad players to quit.
FF14 player skill gaps are incredibly unique. The game actually has incredible tutorials in the form of the MSQ slowly teaching you the same mechanics over and over. Unity in telegraphing forces the average player to learn every fights mechanics through basic patern recognition. This leads to the average skill of the entire community being significantly higher mechanical competence than nearly ever other games community. On the flipside of that, the actual difficulty of MSQ content allows players that cannot cross that simple hurdle to be dragged accross the finish line, preventing them from being completely excluded from the game. This also feeds into the wide reaching and fully developed casual content of the game. It builds a healthy base of casual gamers that have no business being in a savage or similar content to fully enjoy the game. They are not forced into it as the only pillar of content they have the option to explore. This also leaves people that are wholey committed to high end raiding content to progress within their own community. Which leads to many more super high skill level groups. The number of teams competing in world first ultimates is significantly more than any other game. Many MMOs stay afloat with a large silent casual base that survives off scraps of content they can gleen from the hard core minority. Such as progressing lower difficulty raids and dungeons while the community sees the highest difficulty of that content to be the "true" form of the content. While devs devote incredible amounts of resources to errecting these pillars of content and funneling the entire player base around them. FF14 instead divides players into skill groups and says that its ok to do what you want. Instead of funnelling the players into a theoretical end game as fast as possible. FF14 errects new pillars of content all the time and doesn't force you into any one thing. It unifies character progression accross may forms of content to add connective tissue between those pillars. So that playing another form of content never excludes you from another. Which again feeds into that skill, because being good is never handcuffed to a specific grind, a specific kind of content, a specific way to play. As long as you ahve basic mechanical competency and are playing the game in some fashion, everything short of ultimates is at your finger tips. This, again, means that everyone that wants to raid, wants to be good, whats to do these things, has all the tools at their disposal to succeed and damn near all of them do because of it. Not because the content is easy but because they worked for it and earned it with a game that rewarded their investment more than any other on the market.
I think it's more of a cultural difference. Japanese culture creating a video game hoping American gamers give all their money to the game creates barriers. Most of us are born and raised Americans. We are not Japanese. We are not from Japan. We do not think like the Japanese, and the game was created by a team of Japanese. A lot of FFXIV is dull, like Bozja, Eureka, slow leveling system for tons of classes etc. Heavensward relics are the perfect example of a hard-labor Japanese prison camp. You can't even go to the Market Board and buy some leather without having to type in 600 letters of what it's called because of the language translation. Lazy American gamers like ourselves don't talk, write, or spell like that. lol Spending 6 months progging 7 phases of DSR is a nightmare. Those who do well and can clear Ultimates like roulettes with this style of intellect in my experience tend to be Asian themselves, or have autism.
@@jimmorrison4ever529 "What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul." Billy Madison, 1995
The thing is... yeah, the game doesn't do a great job at teaching but im my opinion you should have enough braincells to read your tooltips and make sense of them after *400 HOURS* OF STORY CONTENT!
Some people can struggle with piecing together tooltips, I can understand that, so I'm very much in favour of having more guided tutorials available, should people want them
Perhaps if the game allowed you to spend 400 hours on honing your skills instead of forcing you to endure an insufferably boring story (except ShB, that one was great) this wouldn’t bee much of a problem.
Even a way less complex game like Tekken has in game move/combo lists, plus it has a VERY comprehensive practice mode...
Sure FFXIV has A LOT of tutorials too, but quantity doesn't always equal quality... Is the term 'rotation' ever mentioned ANYWHERE in the actual game..? (Seriously, I don't know - I only started playing a few months ago 😅)
Ps. I play on console so I don't even have access to tools like ACT so you KNOW I suck! But then again should I need to break ToS to try and get good..?
It's bizarre that the job quests don't teach you how to play your class.
I mean the game has button that lights up however in that 400 hours there is nothing that will body check you... so why should the average story only player care about improving when the game just allows you to win anyway?
I feel like something that'd go a long way (without requiring a tutorial) would be for each skill to have an explanation button that goes with it in your ability list. The dialog that accompanies it would explain it (and any related skills), when to use it, and some tips on how to make the most of it. It wouldn't be a direct explanation of rotations (cause those can vary a little periodically, based on updates (even for memes, e.g. Dragon Kick monk), but it'd allow players to figure out how to make rotations themselves.
By default the game will give you a ping for each new skill when you unlock it that will only go away once you read the explanation, but you could also access those at any time from the ability list. And it could cover a couple of skills at a time. E.g. get an explanation for all of the tank mits you have, but then explain the differences between them, how to rotate them, and how to combine them. The dialog would just be appended whenever you got a new skill that fit into that category.
Also, a lot of moves are actually explained in the job quests themselves (e.g. Ninjutsu) but doubling down on that would help a lot. Ninja for instnace covers the ninjutsu to a small degree as you unlock your mudra, but just a scenario when you have all 3 where the game calls on you to use different ones for different situations would help a lot.
While rotation tutorials would not be feasible due to constant changes, a simple tutorial could take place in the form of a soft version of Stone Sky Sea - give the player locked gear for that level and have the DPS check be strict enough to where you need to use oGCDS/combos, but still not completely full uptime
What I want them to do is to disallow new players from purchasing boosts (both job and story skips) until they've hit at least level 50 on a main character. Too many times have I encountered brand new players with level skips that had no idea what an aoe even is.
Yeah, SE isn’t going to do that because money, but I wish.
There's quite a few players though who do know basic game mechanics due to existing in other games.
We need tutorial dungeons in game. From basic mechanics to raid ones like the savage modes have and explain how they work. It's annoying to have to look up guides and not have the ability to practice this mechanic without going into an actual raid then meeting people who just get angry at you for not having known how the convoluted mechanics work as a whole...
One i think is most effective is side content for each job/role thats similar to masked carnivale. Its still optional but it teaches you through puzzle like mechanic encounters that softly guides you to be good at your job/role while being rewarded poetics or glam
I would like to see a series of training dungeons for basic mechanics. A series explaining basic mechanics like orbs, tethers, stack markers, tank swapping, and doom would go a long way. Maybe make it tie in to the grand companies so that you work with a group of pseudo-random allies (randomly generated appearances, but consistent stats) that then become your squadron. It would tie the tutorial into the story (so it doesn't feel pointless), would lead into the squadron mechanic (which could use a revamp too), and not be hidden like the current hall of the novice. You could then expand on this by having a dungeon or two at the start of each expansion that teaches the new mechanics (like Bardam's Mettle tried to do).
While I would love to have the same thing available for class rotations, they change every expansion so we are not likely to get that. What I would do instead is make every job's rotation be built around a solid "core" that comes online early and then has additional actions that get mixed in as you level up. Think gauge actions, OGCs, etc. Basically, make each class get the basic tool set early so that no tank needs to wait until level 70 to get more than 1 AoE button, but then spice up the rotation with new interesting abilities that players learn as they level and hopefully avoid the BLM issue where your rotation keeps changing.
PLEASE! TEACH US THE RAID MECHANICS WITHIUT HAVING TO LOOK UP VIDEOS THAT DONT HELP!
The mechanics get so convoluted at times I can't keep track. I need In game indicators of what everything is and practice all of it.
im throwing this out there, its probably stupid because i am a stupid person. But i think if they implement like a grade system that shows your results at the end of every instance can help people improve. Like devil may cry, how at the end of every mission gives you your performance result. Only yours though, because square isnt big on bullying. but itll put up stuff like damaged done, missed positionals, avoidable damage taken, time, dropped combos, damage output etc.
I feel given the battle log nature, all the data would then be sent to fflogs which would then lead to further drama.
I would love this so much!
100% agree that there needs to be some required training on common dungeon/raid mechanics somewhere as I have seen at least a dozen players doing level-skips and then having no idea what mitigation even is, what their job is supposed to do, or how to do their job. I also do get the "but how long before the training gets outdated?" question, while a perfectly valid concern every training also needs to be updated when job changes are introduced and should go hand-in-hand. Trainings are a continuous effort that have to be updated frequently so that it reflects the experience and allows players to learn from them. This is in my opinion the biggest issue here, SE made trainings but never bothered to update them with the newest additions to the game. Also, the trainings should include something significant in order to offset the time spent, so also including the current tier(50/60/70/80) poetic gearset for free after training completion could be a great way to incentivize completion.
Honestly I think since it’s an mmorpg they think people will share and teach others cuz…well it’s an mmo >_> I thought that was the point of it
What'd I think would be an interesting idea to teach tanks would be that sometimes in trials and raids you might need to split up adds. In the Nidhogg fight there's 3 dragons he spawns which each do their own thing, but if grouped together are be too much for melees damage-wise. It's a mechanic that caught me off guard when i was leveling my Warrior to 80.
Everything you mentioned but also make it mandatory, locking people out of registering for a duty with that role until the tutorial is complete, might sound harsh but one bad "you don't pay my sub" player can really ruin the experience for 3-7 others.
They also need to make AI in Trust and Duty support use AOE already... You can get through pretty much every MSQ dungeon now with NPCs and if they're all single targeting its hardly going to incentivize a new player to do so.
Adjust their damage output to do barely any damage, but make them use AoEs instead. Art of War is a gain on 2, SO START USING IT YOU WASTE OF OXYGEN BLUE ALISAIE
They also need to inform new people about this games built in delay and funky snapshot timings. Too many people dunno about them and they scratch their heads in confusion as to way they died coming from other games that don’t have that type of delay and snapshot in it.
I would have a quick tutorial on common ways boss abilities target important mechanics; full random, closest player(s), further player(s), role based, so on. Knowing to look out and adapt to these things will help players ease into savage content, but this would probably be an optional, advanced tutorial for savage content (especially since it particularly matters mostly for people going in blind into content)
when i initally started my FF14 journey, i never actually had issue knowing the rotation of skills to the point i outright didnt look up a guide for most till way later to see if there was anything i was missing, and the majority of the time i didnt miss anything because a good chunk actually explained in the skill info. now there are outliers of it being not enough, took a bit to exactly understand fully what white mages(job i started out on) lillys were, and black mages fire and ice states. straight up without extensive testing on exact numbers increase, its impossible to tell how strong each state actually is and is one of the few things i HAD to look up because there is just no way to know that umbral ice 3 gives 31x regen and astral fire gives 1.8x fire dmg, i honestly thought it was at best 1.15x for astral fire 3 initally. the other thing of knowing the difference of spells/weapon skills vs abilitys, i personally didnt play games that didnt have this kind of thing. but honestly i think the majority of the really bad players just refuse to read what their skill does far more then lack of teaching tools, because tbh im fairly sure they will ignore the teaching tools if they refuse to even read the skills.
Over the last 2 expansions the game has gone from random 4 player dungeons to 3 NPC + a solo player.
But if i could design some tutorials the would focus on being better team players. Healers who know what Esuna is, DPS who know how to use the party list to know when they are out of healing range, and people who focus on they job they are playing and not try to "mentor" others and die because they are not paying attention to where they are.
The guides online that I found helpful for any game usually boils down what you want to achieve, not how you do it necessarily. For example: A monk wants keep up a dot and a damage buff as well as access stronger attacks via perfect balance while keeping up a free-form rotation that flows 2-2-3. Teach them why they press their buttons and I think they will not have to think about their rotation so much they miss the mechanics and they can also recover from rotational mistakes more easily if they actually understand fundamentals. Teaching mechanics is kind of what the normal fights are there for I think, and learning them should be alright in a trial in partyfinder.
So one thing is the training mode option in FFXIV is frankly dogshit. Other games the training mode will tell you if you're doing good damage, show your damage output, let you play around with testing your aoe range, etc. It feels like actively FFXIV doesn't want you to know how to play the game and pointing out players who are clearly no assing it is considered taboo and toxic. Like people in Extremes that aren't even doing their basic rotation, which everyone can see now because their buff timing is not even in the same neighborhood as the burst window. And players pick up on that which why you have white mages at 90 fishing for free cure, dps that don't know their aoe rotation, tanks that are still arguing about ypyt and w2w when all the endwalker dungeons are 2 packs, if at level 90 you can't tank 2 packs you should just switch to dps, and all kinds of clownery you see not only in dungeons, but even in Extreme and Savage. You can't say anything. You either leave the party or quietly convince the party lead to kick them. That, to me, is way more toxic than other games where there is a clear baseline of expectation, and if you're actively wasting your party's time, you get kicked.
The game does a great job of teaching mechanics, but it does it relatively slowly and/or late. They've only relatively recently changed old Dungeons and Trials to better reflect late game content.
Bardams Mettle is legit one of the few that is actually designed to teach you mechanics.
Everything else you're kind of expected to pick up over time by watching other players or the AI.
And back on the topic of the starting experience, they have improved it significantly. I alredy mentioned the revamping of old Trials and Dungeons, but Duty Support has been a godsend for people who just want to progress the MSQ.
It's doing a better job at teaching mechanics (particularly from ShB and onward), but still could be way better. Tank swapping isn't in any normal content. Yeah the new player experience is slightly better than it used to be but man does it still have a long way to go.
ARR could use another trim, and most jobs leveling experience should be like MNK or at the very least SMN (where you get a baby form of your end game rotation).
@@oEXTRAyeah, the early leveling slog is the main thing that's keeping me from leveling Dragoon and Summoner. Its a *nightmare*
Ok… you have good ideas, but what you’re describing is not feasible for two reasons:
1) SE is constantly adding new classes to the game,
2) SE is also constantly balancing existing classes and making changes to their abilities.
Don’t get me wrong, it would help to have some sort of generalized tutorial that tells you about markers and debuffs, but you’d have to massively scale back how specialized the job stuff can get, otherwise they’ll have to keep making new additions and changes to account for patches.
More to the point, this is kinda the role that should be relegated to Job and Role Quests, and is fulfilled by them to a degree (I can attest that I didn’t know the value of interrupts until the EW tank quests).
So, yeah, good ideas, but the suggested scale is too big to be added as you’re suggesting.
Neither of those points do anything to most of the suggested guides, since they cover role responsibilities and mechanics. And job-specific guides can be updated alongside the changes to the jobs.
@@MyVanir ok, what are you willing to sacrifice?
Would you be willing to have one less dungeon?
Forgo an activity like Ishgard Reconstruction?
Give up a breast tribe quest?
Add extra months to patch cycles?
Because that’s something the suggestions aren’t accounting for, and why I’m saying they aren’t feasible if they get too far into a Job’s mechanical depth.
Adding in Job-specific tutorials, such as what are being suggested, aren’t a one-and-done endeavor, it’s a commitment that the team would have to make to change and update dialogue and mechanics every time there is a patch. A commitment that would take resources away from other projects the team is working on to make the community happy.
Consider how many times monk has been overhauled; how Astro changed from dual-healer to full-healer and had their cards simplified; how Paladin had their entire rotation reworked to be more magical.
Keeping up with this would sometimes involve completely rebuilding a class’s tutorial from the ground up, the same amount, if not more, effort that would go into building a dungeon or raid boss.
Thus, I reiterate: it would be nice to have a generalized tutorial that teaches you about certain mechanics, but it’s not feasible to get as specific as the original video is suggesting. Scale back the expectations.
I think something for DPS could be a mini boss fight where the boss has a light regen on it's health constantly, so if you don't maintain a proper rotation for the most part, you will make very little progress, because the boss constantly heals at a similar rate to the minimum DPS you could do just doing your core rotation without any weaves.
While I think it's all a good idea, I don't think they'd ever do a job specific tutorial that in depth due to reworks. Should they? Yes, but I can see them just being lazy enough to not want to. Especially Astro, they keep changing that one every week. I just wish stone, sea and sky wasn't such an obscure feature, it's so randomly hidden away that's probably why you didn't include it or forgot to. It's a tutorial you could easily fail if you're not doing your whole kit and could actually inspire people to get good and learn, but it's like random NPC's in weird spots, like one is next to Palakas Stand in Thavnir (or whatever the 3rd teleport spot is called).
Stone sky sea definately needs to be in main cities. After returning to game with almost a year break had to google and search that npc.
Idk if we need anything more to teach players their “rotation.” Aside from how the menu option now allows for you to see how certain moves combo into another, going to a higher level of weaving in GCDs and OGCDs sounds a bit much to me. In the strictest sense, there is no “rotation” as your class does not mandate any particular rotation.
As a DRK player I will use myself as an example. For the longest time, I did my burst rotation like a burst: I’d pile on all my high end DPS moves at the time they were available. Later, I learned I could spread out these moves with my GCD combo to make the higher numbers last longer. I didn’t suffer, or do immensely better by shifting rotational styles.
The only time I can see a mandatory rotation is for EX/Savage/Ultimate encounters. I just don’t think it’s super mandatory that the game “teach” you a rotation as it’s not really required elsewhere. Does it help if you know your rotation, yes. However, it’s an added layer of optimization that I don’t think it’s needed in game. Unless we also want to have the game give a tutorial on not only needing pentamelding, but how to optimally meld gear, which again isn’t required except for high end content.
Frankly, I’ve never experienced an Expert Roulette that went on 10 min longer than it would have if the entire party knew their rotations. Frankly, i find complaining about that to be silly. We’d have to educate sprouts on boss mechanics and how not to wipe if they didn’t know dungeon mechanics anyway, which could easily add 5-8 min to a run, but I am not seeing anyone say the game needs a dungeon tutorial for every possible mechanic variation.
Frankly, I think that's a load of bullshit.
i'm with you. I think it is a purposeful intent that the game doesn't outright say 'this is the exact order and timing you have to do every time to play this class' they want players to be allowed a flexibility in their options and play choices even if it ends up suboptimal. That is why they even put into their harassment rules that you can't belittle and kick people for having a different playstyle then what you feel is the correct one.
Hard agree. I think the game could use a "Hall of Intermediate" that teaches you recurring mechanics, to use your global cooldowns the second they're up and not half a second later, and to weave in oGCDs (though probably don't actually make them do that because that gets to real input problems for the bottom of the skill curve) because those are important and easy to understand concepts that don't really get into the nitty gritty of the game, but these type of complaints inevitably just boil down to "I wish people were as good at the game as I am" rather than any real game design problems or gripes. I also don't see how a rotation tutorial is even supposed to work beyond "sync to this stat total and do X amount of DPS", and that's a terrible tutorial because it doesn't teach people who can't do that how they can do it. Figuring out the optimal damage rotation *is* the game for a lot of people. Nobody would play black mage in Savage or Ultimate raids if that wasn't true. Making rotations rigid enough that you can have an ingame tutorial over it just doesn't really make sense and would make the game less fun for a pretty substantial part of the hardcore playerbase.
I wish I could remember which WoW dev said it, but to paraphrase him, "There is a consistent sentiment in the community that you can raise the average skill level of the game by raising the required skill floor to clear content. Our data shows that isn't the case. People below that skill floor just quit."
When it comes to rotations, the reason why it doesn't tell you is because they want you to figure it out.
You have 90 levels, 100 when Dawntrail hits, and multiple expansions worth of content to understand what your class does and how it does it and this changes constantly anyway. They already severely homogenized everything for years to make it easier, they don't need to make it even more brainless or flatout tell people level by level exactly what to do.
The issue is it's not maintainable to have such detailed tutorials. Every time we have class reworks or modifications the tutorials would all have to be scrapped and changed again. Imagine the amount of work that would have to go into the paladin's recent overhaul alone? I've been told by friends who actually play blackmage that their rotations can change wildly every 3 levels at certain points due to skill unlocks.
I can see perhaps enforcing a "hit this minimum DPS" dummy that is solo instanced at the start of every expansion. We already have this in the stone, sky, sea dummy missions, but nothing ever makes you attempt them. We should also add one more lesson to tanks hall of the novice that teaches mitigating on tank busters, raid wides, and spacing mitigation rather than blowing it all at once. We can't expect anything more detailed though because it creates far too much burden if/when they want to make tweaks or radical reworks to any class.
Great vid! Was wondering what that top glam at 0:45 was, I've never seen that chestpiece before!
It's the Endwalker artefact DNC top!
I'm an avid mentor. I am ready and willing to take anyone to a training dummy and explain and show off a rotation and a simple lay out. But yeah just about every class can be learned in a couple of minutes with a paragraph blurb of the greater picture and reading the tooltips. Its a social game, talk to people. If the person doesnt care then no tutorial will help.
i would like to see this in the game but i think this would not change the fact that many players are either not willing or mentally not capable to understand their class / the mechanics of a fight because they play /played stupid brainless games like Honkai Star Rail where you either have nothing to do, or you have only 3 skills to use...
I feel like, in some of the earlier job quests, they attempted to explain the logic of intended skills based on the story content, as well.
But with all the job reworks, the job quests (and, by extension, Hall of Novice) got left behind and now there's a disconnect between what's talked about in the quests (Arcanist job quests is the most jarring example, imo) and what the jobs do at present. And with the expected additional reworks for AST and DRG, job mastery feels virtually unattainable because, at this point, we're gonna expect another rework in another year or two just as people are finally getting used to the jobs.
I like that idea of a dictionary. Actually, they could do something along those lines for guildhests. Instead of guildhests being these strange one-off tasks, why not change them so they introduce players to the actual mechanics regularly used in the game now?
Finding this a month later, but good gawd I would love some class specific stuff. I unlocked Gunblade and have no idea what half the skills will do. Fighting a dummy only does so much to figure out skills and rotations without seeing the buffs in action. I often forget what bard skills do since I mostly heal or tank. Only yesterday did I realize the differences between summoning ifrit, titan, and garuda on summoner. 😅 I'm a casual player and terrible with mechanics cuz my memory is piss poor but I do try to learn and grow.
Haven’t played since Heavensward and just recently came back a few weeks ago. I am mainly a crafter/gatherer but also am a WAR/MNK main. Back then I enjoyed spending hours getting my rotation down (especially with Mnk positioning). Grinding the rotation complexities and how to overcome them always gave me a sense of accomplishment…and it still does surprisingly.
Certain traits and abilities get upgrades as you level up. It’s an introductory to what is to come. Knowing your rotations all comes down to how much effort you’re willing to put in practicing. Once you’re comfortable with said rotation, implementation is just a matter of knowing the fight mechanics. Everything else falls into place. Maybe it’s just me, but a lot of what you mentioned naturally comes with leveling a job.
Then again, people are different and receptive to different things. I pay a lot of attention to other DPS and tanks to see how they do things and if it’s something I can throw into my tool bag. Some don’t really do this and that’s fine too. BUT…my opinion may change in the future. I just hit 70 and finished stormblood lol.
So I feel this video forgot one major question that needed to be answered before any of this "Why do you need to be good? And how do I know if I am good or bad compared to my fellow player?" There is no modivation in FF14 to be good and it is better to live in blissful ignorance unless you find a way for a player to be able to track there performance and measure it to the perofrmance of there peers. Teaching is fine but without any means of showing your perofrmance in ablity to take those lessons and improve it is about as effective as showing a child the alphabet and then never checking in if they remember it or abel to use it.
Now there is a tool that does all of this but I know the FF14 community doesnt want this in there game at all. So maybe just let the bad players be bad, if they want to one day learn they will do it on there own for the want to perform alone.
II would absolutely love expert tutorials. I was lucky enough to have friends teach me high end play as GNB and WHM, but I've found myself wanting to learn everything else, both to widen my own range, as well as be able to better know how to integrate into other rotations happening in the dungeon/trial/raid.
I had a similar idea using job quests - After every 10 levels, a quest is required to get the ability you'd get at that level (i.e. for SGE currently, to get Panhaima at level 80), like it is for the older expansions. Rather than being associated with your job/role story, you would get teleported to a training ground like the HotN (maybe to show off your sweet new skills to admiring onlookers from your GC, idk the lore don't matter). The quest would be a series of VERY short battle situations where you have to use each of the new skills you acquired appropriately, (e.g. for SGE, it would teach you how to use Rhizomata, Holos, and Panhaima at level 80). If you'd like, it could be complete with text boxes that actually freeze the game, highlight the button you have to use, and do not unfreeze until you press it (I think the current UI with silent text boxes is part of why attempts to do this sort of thing with current job quests aren't super effective). Something as simple as "[Enemy name here] is about to release a series of repeated attacks, press Panhaima to repeatedly shield your party!". Simple 10 second repeated raidwide, a green checkmark, and you're on your way, in total hopefully shorter than most of the solo duties you currently have to do at those levels. Stolen straight out of your everyday modern single-player RPG, and essentially a gate to make sure if you're doing content at the level cap for that expansion, you know what all the relevant buttons are.
A similar role-based system could teach how to use all of the role abilities at level 50 for each role to unlock the final one (e.g. Rescue).
Is this a metric ton of work that would have to get partially redone each expansion, and could people just skip through it and not learn anything? Absolutely! But I think maintaining up-to-date and relevant tutorials is a worthwhile expense, and overall I don't think it'd be IMPOSSIBLY burdensome to essentially bring the player to the HotN and have a generic enemy do a single action, with the appropriate counter from the player allowing them to pass (for DPS skills, the enemy doesn't have to do anything at all!). It'll also give SE a good chance to teach use cases for things that aren't super intuitive for new players (e.g. Pepsis and Emergency Tactics, using Holos before damage, etc), and take a second look at things that are more or less useless like Repose.
It'd be nice as well to allow them to keep the ease of normal content where it is, where players aren't punished for being bad, but force them into a single situation where they do have to show a little bit of job competence once per expansion, with no stakes, at the very end. Can even give em a handsome sack of gil as a congratulations.
I don't know, maybe it's just me but Rhizomata and Holos are rather intuitive for the level at which you get them. With Rhizomata being a simple "I'm out of charges but want to use one" button and Holos being an overall great action for preventing party wide damage, as I understand (I'm level 79 rn). It's explaining the "secondary basics" as one might call them, such as making sure to use your AoE and not sleep on any of your off global cooldowns that actually matter imo. Hell, until recently I completely ignored Druochole thinking it wouldn't be helpful and I already have enough ways to spend my charges but seeing the dps drop to below half health all of a sudden so I gotta drop what I'm doing to cast diagnosis too often changed that.
The problem with trying to set a minimal level of expected competence is that we currently have no reliable method of verifying them without third part tools.
You can pick up on quite a few things even without 3rd party tools. That one person collecting vuln stacks like pokemon cards, that ranged standing in the middle of nowhere not receiving any party heal, not seeing a dance partner, that dps lower in aggro than the heal usually means less dps (exception ofc is when that dps was dead, which then leads to the question, death by avoidable damage or lack of healing), the heal not cleansing and dots happily ticking away, that melee never once leaving the rear, etc etc
No, Square enix shouldn't be teaching you rotation and they will never do that. Two reasons - they suck at doing it, japanese side sometimes gets rotations for jobs and they are worse than whatever community will create(also those people thought that first iteration of ninja was balanced). Second reason - they don't make tutorials that they have to update after every balance patch and expand after every expansion. Dps check is awful idea because after failing it there would be no incentive to get better to finish "hall of experts". And again, I don't trust that SE is able to balance training dummies, check some of the patch notes for EW. All markers are taught in normal duties, there's no need for additional training to learn those. Tank/healer lessons actually sound reasonable. I still don't see why would people do this hall of expert, testing lvl 70 rotation to enter current savage or extreme? My expert roulette wouldn't even get better
Ok, now my ideas - to teach rotation, I would add possibility to see community made and rated rotations in the Stone, Sky, Sea which would add highlight to correct buttons according to the rotation made by someone from community. Also Stone, Sky, Sea really needs at least achievement for destroying a dummy once, nice minion would also be welcome
BOOM! another critical video about the disconnect between ARR and early leveling and the state of play after lv80.
Another observation. After using level boost, the game encourages to enter Hall of the Novice.
The mechanics such as "stacking arrows" should be added to some early solo-duties in the MSQ, and get some of the voice actors to add one or two sentences that get played during the fight such as "That attack may hurt alone, lets deal with it together". That way players know or at the very least get taught what the mechanic is, and how to deal with it, and the fact that it's a voice clip played during a fight, and not just a text box or cutscene, means that players should not accidentally skip it.
If it was done at 70 we could wedge in a Garlean defector to be the teacher as the premise of preparing us for what's to come as the Garleans will not take the loss of Ala Mhigo lightly.
In addition to make it a teaching place I would also make it be part of the role quests you have to do to unlock certain spells. That way people will definitely experience it (because some will miss the training hall) and can go back to it at a later point.
Something I wish to have is a place to have an explanation for all the mechanics. What to do when you get the pulsing circle (stack at the player) what to do when you get the big pulsing circle (go as far to the edge of it as possible) etc.
I think implementing some of these into role/job quests would be good, but I don't really feel like all of them should. For the majority of content, unless you are actually doing endgame stuff, as in ultimates/savages most of these don't matter. doing your basic combo correctly obviously does, as is playing general mechanics correctly, ie. tanks need to tank properly, healers need to do healing and dps when needed (tho not like a lot of sweaty players complain that healers actually need to dps more than heal because that is only true in content where everyone actually knows mechanics and is properly focusing on the fight, something i don't think can be expected for basic dungeons).
stuff like buff rotations or stuff are way beyond what i think most players need to learn, and i worry that if these would be tied to quest/job progression it would actually turn players off of playing. I remember before they added the difficulty options for quest instances, it was always a horrible slog that could waste what felt like 20 minutes if you didn't realize you were supposed to do something spesific, and some of them felt almost impossible to do at the time. And i worry that that would be the experience with these job training things too, where you just don't really understand what you're supposed to do and why, since most of that isn't actually that important while playing
I think the solo story duties are "tutorials" in disguise.
Tooltips could be streamlined a great deal for a start. There's a bunch of inconsistency in how it phrases things around positionals for instance.
Somewhere in some piece of mandatory content they need to force you to use a limit break so that you know it exists and you have it on your bars.
I think the "showing the rotation" piece could be an optional view at the ability list similar to the updates they made a bit ago where you can see the combos attached to each other. Have a "damage line" view that shows the abilities in the optimal order of use.
I think that a hall of the expert could work, have a new one each expansion that's optimised for whatever the level cap is at the time and gate the day 1 extremes behind it. new expansion, new hall, sort of like a license renewal. Alternatively rather than it being a side content thing that gets refreshed, have it take the place of the role quests and then gate an MSQ behind it like ShB did. Call them the trials of light or some such and bring back some familiar job NPCs. Maybe you have trust system style things based on starting cities where you get the ninja, warrior, scholar and summoner npc and run a dungeon, and your NPCs are whichever role you aren't and then you essentially do what you're describing.
I think something the game is pretty good at is exposing you to group content through the leveling experience. Yes you might suck as a player, but you've gotten raid experience through trials, done enough dungeons to have seen a bunch of mechanics and to not have a load of anxiety about doing new stuff. I would argue that your average FF player is more ready for its end game content than players of other MMOs are for theirs because of the forced group content.
Tooltips are pretty handy, yeah. My number one piece of advice I ALWAYS give to newer players is:
Step 1: go to Character -> Actions and Traits
Step 2: Thoroughly read what ALL of your actions do (role actions included!) and do the same for any more you learn.
The reason I'm averse to tutorials and such is because they tried that with the first job quest for SGE but it's done super poorly. They just tell you that you can heal or heal with shield or heal via kardion and then just throw you in, with the last encounter being brutal for a first time healer. I would instead explain sage like this:
You have six main tools in your kit:
Kardia - Designates a target to get healed when you take an offensive action
Dosis - basic single target damage spell
Diagnosis - basic single target heal
Prognosis - basic AoE heal
Eukrasia - Changes the previous two abilities to heal for less but provide a shield at the cost of requiring more mp, and causes Dosis to apply a DoT rather than dealing direct damage. All of these modified actions are instant casts, as is Eukrasia itself
Dyskrasia - basic AoE damage spell, what you'll be casting for most of the dungeon
Keep these where you can easily cast them, because you will need to do so a lot.
Beyond this, you have something called the Addersgall gauge, which generates one charge every twenty seconds to a maximum of three. You can spend the charges on the following off global cooldowns (each of which restore 700 mp to you when used):
Druochole - More potent single target heal, boasting a cooldown of only one second.
Taurochole - Even more potent single target heal that applies a 10% damage reduction. 45 second cooldown
Ixochole - More potent AoE heal, 30 second cooldown
Kerachole - Applies a 10% damage reduction to all nearby party members. 30 second cooldown.
These are essential in keeping everyone healthy while still casting Dosis as often as you can, and provide a small boost to MP management as a bonus.
Additionally, you have two other offensive spells:
Toxikon - requires charges that generate whenever a shield you grant to someone is completely depleted within its duration, up to a max of 3. Deals decent damage to single targets or groups of enemies, but is best saved for when you need to dodge AoEs and can't sit still to cast dosis/get close to cast dyskrasia
Phlegma - Powerful single target spell with a large AoE but a fairly small range. Can store up to 2 charges with a 40 second cooldown.
The rest of your kit can be figured out on your own, and for the most part will help you out in more niche situations/when you're in a pinch.
That might be a bit of a text wall, but all things considered it doesn't take long to read. I know if I had a similar simple beginners guide when picking up any of the dlc classes I would have gotten the hang of it very quickly. Of course, some form of hall of the expert at level 50 that tells you to use your oGCDs and to use AoE actions when fighting several enemies would probably be nice.
"Somewhere in some piece of mandatory content they need to force you to use a limit break so that you know it exists and you have it on your bars."
Ultima Weapon does this now, you basically have no chance of passing the ending DPS check without the LB3 that your god explicitly gives you
"Alternatively rather than it being a side content thing that gets refreshed, have it take the place of the role quests and then gate an MSQ behind it like ShB did. Call them the trials of light or some such and bring back some familiar job NPCs. "
I fucking love this idea, just, a hard stop test. Not just because I really would like to make sure that at this point I do actually know how to play each class, but because certain people would get SO MAD and it would be hilarious.
@@antheraea.mothcore honestly would be a better use of everyone's time than forcing people to find a party for each of the hard primal trials at the end of ARR
I remember telling an experienced tank main friend that I had been watching tutorials on CZcams about how to be a good tank before I started getting into the role and she told me that'd already make me better than 90% of tanks out there 💀 the bar seems very low and I would love to see your ideas implemented
I don't think you said it, but Tank Swapping should absolutely be a hall of the experts type tutorial. It's an essential skill for 8 man content and too many tanks are afraid to try it.
As a new-ish player there's one thing I think is needed. The ability to add a customizable colored border to skills so I can tell at a glance which skills on my bars have positionals and whether it's flank or rear without needing to read every tooltip any time i change to a less-played job.
It wouldn't really make the game easier, but it would help jog my memory of how to play a job with just a quick glance at my bars.
*_(After this I just kind of rant for a bit, feel free to skip)_*
And some commands that are keybinds really need a button on the UI, like the control + home keybind increases the size of any window... I spent way too long looking at an inventory that was way too small only to find out from a tip video that windows can be resized. That wasn't even a tip, the person just had a larger inventory than I did so I had to google. "FF14 how to increase inventory" ""FF14 how to increase inventory size" ""FF14 how to make inventory bigger" ""FF14 how to resize window" (got chat window for that, *_which is done differently from every other window_* ) ""FF14 how to increase window size". That last one finally gave me a 3 year old reddit post with one single comment on control + home.
Also the default settings are weird, especially the inventory tabs. And when using the one large bag option, the tabs still exist so rather than having new items go from left to right for the full width of the bag, it goes half the width then starts on the second line. And when it's done with the first tab, it goes to the right tab instead of the tab underneath the first. It's just inconsistent.
Why is the hunting log a thing? It just seems to have never gotten an update past ARR.
How did I not know there were duty finder settings? AND WHY IS LIMITED LEVELING ROULETTE ONLY FOR PREMADES?!?!?!?!?!?! That setting would really help keep alt job grinds fun.
And why doesn't /macro open up my macro menu? this is just a pet peeve of mine as it's easy enough to access them through the system menu, i guess.
Why doesn't it teach new players they can rent chocobo in starting cities? This literally would've save me hours before I got my personal chocobo.
Spirit bound gear is never explained... never.
There are too many settings menus which have too many categories and each category has too many tabs. At least give me a search box so I can find which menu -> category -> tab i need to be in.
which song is playing in the second half of the video? (~minute 7 onwards)
Eden titan's ost
The only thing I think is CRUCIALLY needed is an actual explicit explanation of all the universal mechanic markers, like you mentioned. These markers are great and extremely easy to read ONCE YOU KNOW THEM, but the process of actually LEARNING what they mean pretty much requires that you have someone to explain them to you. If you're not playing with experienced friends and no one ever bothers to explain what they see as "basic" mechanics in party chat, you're gonna have a really hard time figuring a lot of them out. And this doesn't just affect high-end raiding - even by the end of ARR you're gonna start having trouble staying alive in mandatory fights if you don't know what some of these markers mean. This is BY FAR the biggest thing the game is lacking in terms of tutorials IMO.
I don't think they'll ever do something that teaches a specific rotation, partly because they change jobs a lot and partly because I think most game devs don't want to enforce a single "correct" way of playing their game, even when the game is designed such that a de-facto "correct" way clearly exists. Most rotations can be figured out to a competent level just by reading tooltips anyway; if anything they might just want to encourage that somehow.
Beyond that I think the main stuff you called out that I would be interested in is the universal "how to play the game" type stuff, like teaching tanks to aggro adds or teaching healers to use their oGCDs. Honestly some of that could just be put in the Hall of the Novice. Anything more advanced like efficient mitigation usage is probably getting too technical (people who care will look it up anyway, people who don't will skip the tutorial), and some stuff like tank swaps are kinda too fight-specific to give a lot of general advice on.
I think FF14 attracts a lot of players who play it for the name and not the genre. So you get people who never learned some of the MMO basics that are prevalent across many games. A genre veteran can skip the Hall of Novice and do just fine but someone who has never picked up an MMO before would benefit from it.
I just graduated from Piety being the most important stat as a white mage. Having free lily heals and asize is a real gamechanger for mp management
Hands down, players need to be able to complete the stone/sky/sea or lawns/etc trial that is sync'd to the max of an expansion before moving onto the next. The 60/70/80 etc are surprisingly well tuned. If you can't beat that.....get some practice in. I think your idea of hall of the expert is a good wish, and I'd certainly encourage that but that's a bit of 'pie in the sky'. That said FF could also do with a hint more of content variety with some content acting as stopgaps, like for example delubrum reginae was actually a REALLY good step between normal 10 player raids/alliance raids and ex. We could use a few more 'steps' in the process of other content as well, like something between your normal dungeons and the savage criterion (I don't consider criterion more difficult than regular dungeons), but like it's really dated, they could use some dungeons like the pits of saron/halls of reflection that wow had in wotlk that were heroics and didn't mess around for their time. As it is you go from playing pattycakes to extremes and the gap between that is a cutoff point for a lot of players.
The core problem is button bloat - most *normal* players don't want 25+ buttons to manage. Even wow learnt this, let alone every other surviving mmo.
The thing that always amazes me is how people are even capable of noticing "when other players are playing badly." I can notice things like "a tank not holding AoE aggro" or "a healer doing *exceptionally* badly," but I have no idea how anyone notices things like "another DPS not doing their rotation correctly." Can you really figure it out just by glancing at their animations?
The issue I personally run into is just that most higher-level FF14 DPS rotations are too complex for me to fit in my head while still paying attention to mechanics. Like I'll be playing dragoon and my brain will frequently just lose track of which part of its rotation I was doing. Or for some other jobs, it's very hard for me to simultaneously keep an eye on mechanics, my own rotation, and the state of whatever job-specific resources I need to manage (a good example of this is Red Mage). I do at least know what my rotations are, but I definitely make extremely frequent mistakes with them (at least with the DPS jobs). By "extremely frequent" I'd wager that I make a mistake at least 1 out of every 3 rotations for DPS jobs.
I get the impression that other people just have an innate ability to "focus on multiple things" that vastly exceeds my own. I have Literally Thousands of hours in this game, and it's clear that I'll simply never be able to do the stuff other players do. I notice this when playing other games with my friend - he'll often comment on things I'm doing, and I don't comprehend how he's able to notice those things while playing.
Amazing video and very good points made. I gotta ask though what's the name of that coat your character is using? 👀 shit looks gud
We need more tutorials inn the game, I agree, the problem is that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink, just because the tools are at the disposal of the players doesn't mean people will actively choose to engage with them. I honestly don't mind if I have someone doing subpar damage or slacking off in their job for day to day dungeon content, I mainly just want people to read their skills and know that they have party buffs for goodness sake. Please just use your buffs.
I understand what you're getting at, but if the game had incredible, in depth tutorials on how everything works, none of that can compare to player to player knowledge sharing. Like, ever. There is a reason almost all games like this don't have tutorials explaining how best to play your class/job and how to be better at the game. The devs don't know you, they can't just put you in a tutorial and expect everyone understand it their way. Adding actual tips on how the game works and is played into the game itself is futile
I'd call the teaching place Bardam's Mettle hard. It's an 8 man encounter where you pick the role you want. Mt, OT, both style healer, and each DPS style will be the options with NPCs filling the 7 you don't pick. Trash packs will be larger to simulate wall pulls with each boss having harder mechanics (tank swaps, light parties, ect). If you clear it as a role you get decent looking usable armor, but it you complete it as every role you get a unique mount with special music.
May I ask what Chest piece you're wearing at 4:00? I thought it looked really neat (especially if it gets dual dye for Dawntrail) and got no clue what piece it is
Looks like the heaven's ward coat from the mog store
@@hollowlord8253 Agreed, looks very much like it
WoW once tried something like this during Mists of Pandaria, to que for random heroics you had to beat the silver proving grounds. 10 waves of mobs with differences for each role, with simple mechanics too. I cannot stress enough how easy clearing the silver proving grounds was. Yet there was such a significant portion of the playerbase that COULD NOT DO THIS that Blizzard had no choice but to remove the requirement for random heroic que. It does not matter what the devs try to do, somehow, someway people who do not play the game at the simplest level of competence make it to max and continue to play the game, refusing to learn or improve in any way. This isn't just a FFXIV thing, it's a human thing.
we need something akin to limit breaks in ffxi, but instead of 75 onwards, you hit 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 and you have to do a quest that requires you to know your job before you can attempt the at level content.
Beside the clearly missing dictionary for markers, I think a side "what can I expect from other roles from my role's pov" for people who don't play or try every role could be useful - i.e. mitigations from other roles, LBs, etc
Among all else I really like the idea of showing them common mechs like stack marker, etc. Learning by dying isn't a bad thing but some kind of introduction to prepare people I think would be very good.
This is a great idea though like the saying goes "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". There is no guarantee that someone that doesn't even understand the basic math of 3+ enemies, AoE is more damage will actively seek out a hall of X to learn. They don't need to learn. You don't pay their sub.
This should be in the hall, yes, but it should also be heavily ingrained in and with a basic understanding needed to complete the initial job quests to pick up a new job, no matter which, after level 50.
As a healer main who is looking into tanking... I still have no idea how to tank swap at all, this would be a godsend for at least basic knowledge. Hall of the Novice feels like an extended tutorial for people who are new to mmo's period, but it doesn't get at all into the mechanics that are unique to ffxiv
It would be nice to go into higher level content with a base level of knowledge that everyone can be counted on to know, if there's anything that you have to do otherwise, then they can be taught on the spot
This video is a bit older but anyway... i wanna give my idea! 🤣
Lvl 15 basic teachings like it is now is great. You know your job before you enter the first dungeon.
Next step would be lvl 30. You get your job crystal and with that new lessions by your job npc. He tell you how your job works in basic forms in those instances like the lvl 15 one.
Next stage lvl 50. Endcontent for ARR our green mentor friends from lvl 15 call us for advanced training. You learn basic raid language. What you already encountered and will encountered in future.
You hit lvl 60/70/80/....
The job npcs of new classes will teach you how to deal with the new job also old job npcs wanna talk to you to tell you how your job has changed. That part will be complete optional. The first teaching will be forced.
I think something like that would be my way of doing it^^
Healers: Use Esuna and Rescue. JFC, I almost _never_ see these used when they are required to keep things running smoothly.
Tanks: Invulnerability moves. Not just mitigation. Specifically using their I Can't Die move properly.
Casters: Sleep. Add control matters. Swiftcast- not just for rezzes. Slidecasting.
Ranged: Damage reduction CDs. I'm the only one that does it most of the time- and yes, I do look.
Melee: Interrupts and stuns. Kick shit.
Alright, so firstly I want to lead off with the statement that I agree with the general premise outlined in this video, in that there is likely design space to improve the tutorial and learning options available to the average FF player. I say this because the rest of the comment will be disagreeing with a majority of the statements made in this video.
The fact is, the group of players that are driving down your expert roulette experience are the type of people that no amount of development time here can fix. Having come from several MMO's in my lifetime, FFXIV is no exception. These are the players that will do the bare minimum to succeed because that's all of the effort they want to put in to it. That's all that is required and they have absolutely no desire to improve at a video game. When met with a challenge, the vast majority of these players will simply quit. They will not research. They will not improve. They will not try harder. They will give up and quit.
Taking this further, let's say we improve the hall of the novice. Let's also say it's a perfect implementation that covers what you're describing in the video. How do we get the players engaged? Those same players who can't be bothered to press an AoE during dungeon pulls certainly aren't going to waste their time with "dumb tutorials." They're not invested. Either because their time is far more limited as a casual player or they don't care. So, let's make it mandatory? Remember what I said about facing a challenge. Many of those players will just quit. Who wants to pause the story to listen to tutorials? Okay, so let's make it optional but with a juicy reward. How many ToS agreements have you read when booting up a game you've been waiting for? I'm sure the number is close to zero. Players will tune out just to reap the benefit. Furthermore, having a tutorial that describes rotations for jobs will add scope to every balance patch and/or expansion as they have to potentially be rebuilt everytime the rotation changes.
One additional problem raised by this is the difficulty in accurately "tutorializing" a mechanic to a player so that it is recognizable to the learner. To give a crude example, have you ever seen an instance where you show a child a photo of a car, and then everything with wheels (shopping carts, bicycles, airplanes) is now a car to them as they shout it from the top of their lungs? There's a similar issue here where you (to take one example) describe the role of physical range baiting boss attacks away from the party. A "learning" player is simply left to guess at which attacks must be baited and which should not. A more relevant example is how poorly the stack marker is communicated in the Xande fight in Crystal tower. But, this is now far beyond the scope of an expert roulette problem.
So, to not have an entire comment attacking your video as I do agree with the premise but not the examples; here's a few things I might do if I were given the role at square enix:
* Continue to improve the progressive learning of indicators during the MSQ. They've certainly made a lot of strides in this space by bringing new markers back to old content, but the ilvl bloat and lack of death recaps are hamstringing some of this. The flow should be a natural progression of the MSQ that allows players a "zero-time investment" effort in both progressing the game they want to play while also learning what is required of them.
* Expert roulette and the expansion capstone dungeons should be redesigned. Experts are a new difficulty aimed at bridging the gap between MSQ and harder content, where capstone dungeons are dungeons are we currently know them. The first time run through a dungeon via MSQ should be at "capstone" or "trust" difficulty. We've seen design space in Criterion to have interesting trash mob encounters and I believe they could borrow ideas from that into the expert roulette. Now, I'm not suggesting something nearly as brutal as on-content criterion, but having singular mobs (or bosses!) that can be chain stunned, or interrupted, or require 2 mitigations to live is something that can be explored. Ideally speaking these changes are easily flipped on or off without adding additional scope to development time.
* Then, pair off good gameplay with things that all players want keeping in mind that "zero-time investment" idea. Fashion. We have achievements for tank mounts, why not have achievements for abilities that were successfully mitigated? hitting 3+ mobs with AoE skills? Successfully weaving abilities? Job specific achievements where a BLM fires off 1000 paradox abilities? These may not be the best examples but I believe there is space here to simply encourage players at least mashing their buttons instead of letting them collect dust.
Finally a reasonable opinion
I've just recently returned to the game 2 weeks ago, level 80 WHM, only really leveling to 90 via daily roulettes. 90% of the time, I'm level synched to 50 or below and never have a chance to use my class's abilities. The few times I get into a 72+ run, I often forget about the higher level abilities like being able to shield or proc an additional heal on Medicate. I can confidently say that, while I'm smart enough to figure it out in an easier dungeon run of max level, I do NOT know how to properly play my White Mage currently. I haven't touched the duty support or w/e to try with NPCs for training my rotations yet, but I've also learned from being active during past expansions that, until you hit the hardest content, you don't even need half of your abilities to easily succeed, leading to ingrained habits and muscle memory that just can't cut it in the end-game content. While I dislike doing so, my personal solution is simply going to be hitting max level and finishing the MSQ while looking at a guide or two on the rotations and just practicing simple repetition until I can get the group content unlocked and first-hand experience.
It's sad that the game is built in such a way. I only came back because I have an itch to properly raid and do the hardest boss fights. Not entirely interested in the MMO experience as a whole outside of that. (Which is why I've finished the Blue Mage line in between Roulette Dailies.)
What test would I add? Tanking challenge, give them a regen that will allow them to survive if they use mitigation correctly, then they have to mitigate a tankbuster that has a bleed on it. Something to get all these damn DRK players to use something beyond TBN, as it's far too common for them in high end content to just fall on their face because they only hit TBN on a buster and the bleed could only be outhealed by Bene.
A proper explaination what Stone, Sky, Sea was even meant to accomplish is something I feel thats needed too
i feel like the level 70 job quests would have been a really great place to put some sort of "you've come this far, now let's see what you know" kind of skill-check/tutorial, since that's the last level we have proper job quests before transitioning into role quests. not only would it be a good way to prepare people for the difficulty ramping up in SHB content by reminding them about some of their skills they may not have been using because stormblood content may not have pushed them hard enough to need them, but it's also a nice narrative capstone to the job quests themselves and a lot of the stories could very well benefit from a final duel with your teachers or something similar
another tutorial to consider would be a 2-minute burst tutorial, especially if the game is going to force us into playing around a 2-minute meta, since it hurts the entire party in all levels of content if bursts are not lined up. it doesn't need to be "this is how you fully optimize your burst" but a simple "be sure to use this party buff every chance you get! sync it up with your NPC party members' buffs so you can defeat this trial!" should be enough to teach people they need to use their 2-minutes together with everyone else. that is, of course, assuming the 2-minute meta is here to stay, imo since it's Square's own design choice to have it they should consider putting a tutorial on it since it's now a cornerstone of the combat gameplay
Yeah i'm on the same boat. Your Tutorial Ideas are really great. Would be so much fun plus you'll learn something which makes your gameplay better and funnier :3
if we put aside that we will always have silly ass single target tanks and ice mages, i really think there needs to be better means for us to practice stuff in game or learn certain things like you mentioned. i don't know about job specific stuff, though - i think role specific "training" instances that aren't just barebones (like the ones you mentioned) would be awesome.
I definitely agree that the game should teach rotations, though. You can usually figure out what you're supposed to do based on ability descriptions, but it's dumb that the player needs to solve a puzzle to figure out how to play correctly. There should at least be some sort of "training hall" that directly tracks your button presses and tells you when you're doing things wrong.
As a ninja I would want tanks to be shown what a doton looks like so that they move enemies into them instead of mistaking it for an enemy aoe and running away. Usually only DRK realizes its a friendly puddle and thats bc they have salted earth to compare it to
The problem is: players might also not really want to learn, which is pretty common. So, make it an achievement/reward-earning, you know, like combo trials on a fighting game 😌
I always know the basic rotation of any class Im playing. But I dont have a clue how to fit it into the 2 minute buff windows in raids. Never done a raid and kinda dont want to cause the rotations seem so intimidating. Like, it seems like you just CANT mess up. Idk how people keep perfect track of their rotation while dealing with boss mechanics
I bet anything that if the game had excellent, top tier teaching sytems, tutorials, and balancing, most players would still suck.
I played a lot of games, and a lot of MMOs. And while bad players are going to be everywhere to some extent regardless of what you do, FFXIV seems to have them in the highest quantity. Which is something I've always struggled to come to terms with, since FFXIV is, by all comparative metrics, a very easy game (in everything that isn't savage/ultimate). While I do think more tutorials could be beneficial, especially for some of the more arcane knowledge the game squirrels away, I, personally, think the game does an excellent job at show-don't-tell. It shows you how your job works, and how fights work, and how mechanics work. Even in the newest content, with the idea that players have played through the game, fights hold your hands in an almost coddling way. I think the problem is deeper then that. On a fundamental level of game design, the casual level that the game itself propagates with its atmosphere and wild difficulty curve gives rise to players who are simply to lazy or inept to learn the game's intricacies, even as few as they are. The game simply doesn't force you to actually try in casual content, leaving anyone not willing to put in a focused effort at a loss. You can slap as many tutorials in the game as you want, but unless the casual experience is changed to make you actually, meaningfully, develop and utilize these skills, I can't see anything changing.
The Balance discord type resources should be in game too, a basic opener to learn and a stat/gear priority menu like ariyala would go a long way I think. Maybe even a bar that goes across your screen with the skills in order that light up DDR style to teach players their rotation/openers. And again this really comes down to that it really should be on SE to teach players how to play the game rather than relying on players to do all the work.
Closest the game gets to teaching rotation is Sky-stone-sea. It doesn't really teach you anything except if you're bad or not
No, expert roulette won't be 11-12minutes. even with dmg pots and i660 gear. Maybe lv90 roulette if everyoneis overgeared and use dmg pots but not expert. I'm logging my casualruns and after hundreds of expert roulette and lv 90 roulette I have yet seen best times as follows: Lunar SUbterrane 15:05; Aetherfront 12:52; Lapis manalis 14:18; Troia 13:55; Alzadaal 14:30; Stigma 13:05; Smileton 12:48; Dead Ends 15:00. To reach 12m or below would require premade pt, everyone with bis or nearly bis gear, using dmg pots and giving their all. But since it's a casual content you are fine just doing basic combo 1-2-3 without party buffs or long cds and you can still clear. One need to assume that in casual content people won't tryhard, their parses will be low and they won't try to optimise rotations on a freaking easy to run dungeon. and that will of course affect the time in which you clear it. SO a time of 14-15minutes is actually really fast and it means that your party performed well or had a good gear. 17m+ means either wait time because of cutscenes or just overall mediocre performance. But 11 minutes on expert roulette with random people? Forget about it. The numbers above are out of 400 lv 90/expert roulette that I logged. Not even once I finished it in 11 or 12 minutes. 13 is barely possible with a little tryharding.
Best tutorial for melee dps is the samurai lvl54 quest back in shadowbringers. As a sprout going in that thing without accessories was definitely a humbling experience.
I feel wierd saying this, but I think that the "proper" way to play a game involves stopping to see the game as a game and instead of a ruleset that needs to be followed. I believe that is why when confronting the worst kinds of players with their bad play they become incredibly agressive and defensive because what you basically told them is: "Stop smoking weed, sit up straight, stop your hardstyle background playlist and FOCUS THE FUCK UP!" - which is what these people are not here for.
I on the other hand expect every person in my vincinity to treat every moment they play a game with purpose and a clear goal in mind and that requires that you have the mindset of having a goal for the time you interact with another person to begin with. Players playing bad do not have the goal in mind of "I want to do everything in my capabilities to get this done." - They have in their mind "I am just here to have a good time." - which just does not align with the goal of those playing "seriously".
As such - it is impossible to make bad players play better because they have no interest in seeing the game as a skillset they have to tune.
The only way to make them realise this is to roadblock their way forward. That would require making fights that clearly require you to prove your understanding of the game as a roadblock for story progression. What we instead have at EVERY point such a battle occurs is a "do you want to activate easy mode to skip this encounter?" prompt. Therefore it is clearly not in the interest of the developers to make you sit up straight and focus the fuck up.
Yes I am fun at parties because my goals at parties align with that of my surroundings, thank you very much. Now sit up straight, sober up and empty that beer can, this bar table card game isn't going to play itself!
Still blows my mind when I see Dragoons or Samurais do an expert and not aoe.
Its disrespecful and a waste of damn time. I don't even care if the healer doesn't aoe, I just need the dps to aoe with me (the tank)
Be a lot cooler if jobs that start at 50 and 60 didn't just vomit everything onto your hotbar, and expect you to fight a battle without so much as even a Training Dummy near the stone-giver.
I have to agree to an extent with you, I have been playing for a little while, but I still don't know a few boss machanics work. I play DPS and I've kinda been winging it.
I do think the training halls should have OPTIONAL extra tasks to do each expansion showing you the machanics relavant to it.
They should reward with exp and gear for that expansion like they do in the base game. Give you gear that is mid-level for expansion to encourge you to do it early on.
I've always believed that role actions should be locked behind the Hall of Novice and should teach how each action works, duties should be locked for that role until all role actions are unlocked.
Learning the role actions would give a very basic understanding of what the role should do.
Some players genuinely are not trying...like the players who stand in huge obvious AOEs are refuse to move...or the ones they can't see the telegraph but NEVER pick up on the fact that they could follow the team if they don't understand what to look for. Had a dude once just stand in the half-room AOE with that boss where you burn the furniture. He kept insisting there was no telegraph, we kept insisting there was, just look at the boss, see which side of him was looking all fiery...kept insisting there was no telegraph...said fine just follow the team then. Refused, claimed there was NO WAY to dodge it, then cussed us out because we demanded he pay attention to the telegraph or at least follow the party and stop wiping us.
You have many good points, but really. Call me a pessimist but I don't think much would change even with the best tutorials available. As the saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. The only way I could see this maybe sinking in is if you gate keep content, like you need to finish these tutorials before moving on but even then. Some people just don't care and no amount of teaching will help them because they can't help themselves to begin with. Though for people who do care, making their lives easier with QOL changes and dynamic tutorials will just stream line them into becoming competent players, faster which is good.