Very good tier list! I am a newer player at 6 games. And this helped a lot! I just did the opening Warfare move last night playing Fed of Sol in P. of Kings. And it really helped. I put out most of my ships on a single planet. Then move into the next three planet spot, followed by moving into a planet space on the right of the first taken area. This will give me 13 influence which will open my second leader on first turn. Plus my starting planet home has 4 so I can get a tech!
A post-PoK faction tier list would be amazing. I just played my first game of Twilight Imperium and am about to play my second and would love feedback from someone more experienced so I know if the factions I like are as good as I think or if I'm liking things that are good on paper or bad in-game, or even just knowing what things are meta-dependent. Thanks for the tech tier list!
I don't have too much experience with the game but as a rule of thumb unless the race you're interested in is one of the really complicated races like nekro (in which case maybe try to get more experience under your belt before playing them) don't worry about a race being strong or weak, it's better to be the underdog for five hours while having fun than to just steamroll the competition in a way you find boring. That said nobody got nerfed and a lot if not all of the bottom tier factions got buffed back into viability (some were arguably buffed way too hard like winnu) so yeah, if a race was good in the base game it will still be pretty good now, and if it was bad it's now probably playable and to be honest a lot more flavourful and fun (sardakk used to be bottom tier trash in terms of power and also kinda boring to play, but with their new emphasis on skipping space combat directly into ground combat and their beefy mech and the various ways to amass infantry with pok they're really fun).
With POK the original list hasnt changed for me. S (Tech) A (Warfare, Trade) B (Leadership, Politics) C (Construction) D (Imperial, Diplomacy) Its quite simple really. Tech lets you stall for warfare so you always will be able to build, and is quite valuable as you're always able to spend your resources on a warfare build. In some cases with some factions, you even get to double tech Turn1 Round 1 and exploit anyone dumb enough to take Diplo to refresh your planets. Trade lets you arrange an optimal time for Warfare and Tech, and also gets you the resources to tech and build off of warfare comfortably. If you're aiming for Mecatol it's mostly a question as to whether or not you buy speaker or sell it. That's why if Tech has been taken or I'm looking to take mecatol the number one question I always ask the person to take strategy card next is always. If I took trade, would you take politics and sell me speaker? Because you're going to end up with more resources with trade than if you sold speaker. Warfare by its very nature of letting you take more planets than most early on is a godsend for some factions like saar, and rearrange your fleet supply early to make room for a bit more manuvering. It's the premiere early space RISK card to let an aggressive player get a leg up for the equidistant planets or get close enough to mecatol to matter without going blue for Gravity Drive. The only reason its not higher on the list is because with warfare you're essentially weighing the benefit to taking more planets early vs getting an early tech and spending the home resources or trade resources on an earlier plastic advantage which in my opinion always favors the trade player who can afford to give you a favorable trade and still come out ahead or the tech player who cannot be outstalled and will in most cases be able to move the plastic he builds off of warfare and have more of it than you. Leadership is a great pick. the ability to start turn 2 with a good token pool and not having to spend out of your fleet supply is a godsend to some factions. It's one of the few cards whose secondary hardly anyone gets to use turn 1 that purely benefits the player, but it's still a static sum of 9 influence compared with the dynamism of the better-ranked cards. Politics is crucial later down the line, as controlling who gets speaker gets more and more essential for determining the winner of the game, but as a round 1 pick the only reason you're grabbing politics is to get one of the cards mentioned above or to take leadership and make a play for mecatol turn 2 without being opposed. Turn two mecatol isn't as guaranteed as it used to be is why it's down here in the B tier for first picks. Construction is great. There are a swathe of new objectives related to structures that bump this card up to be a great pick turn 1 if you have none of the above cards or if any of these objectives have come out. For most factions having a second space dock or a forward space dock is key to later game success, but it is not as important as expansion or tech, and doesn't help much r1. You're better off spending one of your leadership tokens on the forward dock than the construction player is putting down his forward dock after moving out 1 hex from home. D tier is simple reasoning. Diplo is hard to get the timing right for, and EVERYONE else at the table will gain more than you do Imperial is simply for the secret and not to be stalled out of warfare. Even if you could score twice the benefit to doing that is very small as you likely wont be able to score on turn 2 balancing it down to simply the one secret.
"If I took trade, would you take politics and sell me speaker?" ... does not work in round 1 as you're most likely not neigbors to do this kind of transaction. I think.
@@stephanmobius1380 doesn't stop you from making a deal, say you'll give em the trade when you inevitably end up neighbors. He is in the slice next to you after all. And also sets him up to pick 2nd next round.
You're ignoring something when you consider Trade. As the Trade player, you don't get trade goods that you would otherwise get, if another Trade player lets you get commodities (with you owing them 1). Also, you might not get some of the trade goods until the end of round 2, when you can trade with non-neighbours. You also need to make neighbours. Two other advantages of Technology is that you're playing after Warfare, so you're much less likely to be stalled. Also, the first-round strategy token can be very impactful (you can follow Warfare and another card such as Diplo or Construction for a 2nd Space Dock; and Construction might not be picked 2nd round). Finally, when you compare Trade with Technology you ignore the advantage of choosing the timing for Technology. This is much better than choosing the Timing for Trade, which might be awkward as you want to take planets first (for Diplo/Construction) and probably want a neighbour first (so that they don't backstab you); Tech is very likely popped before Trade and then you might miss Tech round 1.
If there are factions with less than 4 resources in their home system, taking and using Technology on the first turn can prevent them from following (unless they used Trade as their first action too)
I'm thankful I came across your comment. Totally correct, now if I can remember it tomorrow to try breakdown what strategies to avoid with certain factions and which are best suited R1.
If you want more then 3 trade goods you need to give your opponents (and neighbours to) trade goods, so the different in gain is not 10. Tech is nr 7 AFTER warfare, trade is nr 5 before warfare. So tech is still king
Current meta for online games is a debt of 1 TG for a free commodity refresh, so I'm assuming that and you can generally get a free exchange too. If there's a Hacan, 2 commodity factions, or just different meta it would change the value of the card. I do think tech slightly edges out because you save the token for another potential secondary, after consideration.
I guess trade will depend on if there is a Hackan or not, is there's no hackan, on turn 1 you will have no neighborns and trade will give you only 3 and i dont know if the other players will give you 1 trade good to replenish if they had no neighborns, although maybe they could have neighborns on turn 2 and exchange then.
I've been playing a lot on tabletop simulator lately. I typically find a turn 1 neighbor if you have trade to be easy, often times others will throw away a token just to move next to you. It's kind of strange actually.
@@BeyondtheBoard I think moving a trade ship to get resources in round 1 is valuable in a lot of cases, even though it seems like it'd be the same as just doing the secondary of trade. - By sending a trade ship, you're getting resources early, so you can use them for either warfare or tech - It's a stall, as you're waiting for the right strategy cards to get played - You're filling an open space, which could protect you from the neighbor you're trading with I think your tier list was pretty spot on.
@@Dac0Trilar Ya, I think it's an excellent stall for warfare, I have gotten caught convincing someone else to send a neighboring ship to trade and missed out on warfare because I didn't leave a "trade ship" open!
Can someone explain to me please why Trade is valued so high here? You gain 3 trade goods and replenish for free. And that's it. You can't ask the others to give you massproducts in exchange for a free replenish, because that would be transaction and requires to be neighbors, which you probably are not in round 1.
Listing i just threw together (i am noob, but been preparing for 2 weeks for 4th game) TI4- 17 faction WARFARE- (I only based on increasing planet control for r1) Mentak, Winnu, Xxcha, Jol Nar, Yin Bros. Arborec, Sol Saar- very greedy control. Other factions will want this card as well, top 2 lines are the factions that "most need," or "somewhat need." The secondary will be sufficient for most to take 1-2 planets, systems. TECH L1, Mentak, Naalu, Hacan TRADE- anyone potentially for the 3 TG's Jol Nar, Yssaril, Natalie, Winnu, Arborec, Saar, Hacan, Xxcha LEADERSHIP- based on Adrim cc need opinion Arborec, Saar, Yssaril, L1, Muaat, Sol, Xxcha, Naalu POLITICS Yssaril or anyone making 2nd round push for M. Rex with Warfare, or need Tech (Cruiser II) CONSTRUCTION- most can use secondary, but would need someone to take Hacan or Mentak (HS pds network,) Letnev & Sardakk (double space dock HS,) Naalu (fighter production near HS,) Saar (Forward production sys. [M.Rex or adjacent]) DIPLOMACY- 2 planet refresh is good early rounds Xxcha- if backend selection and no one has taken, could get you R1 neighbor for transactions. Muaat- protect your War Sun from mobile players near you, should have advantage. Anyone with mobile neighbors you believe will target your HS if left unprotected. IMPERIAL Last to choose SC and secret objective fits better than the other 2 cards. Think you can make the 1st 2 objectives, and you want aggression towards you. Only my thoughts and I am still new to the game. Have only played 3 3 player games (mostly incomplete) to learn, which were mostly combat oriented not objective targeting. I've been attempting to collect information to improve myself, my group, and to help educate friends we can influence to join us.
Most ppl reference it because with a carrier + 2 infantry you can take most starting tiles (minus the new 3 planet ones). So if you have 2C4I you can take any two starting tiles and warfare primary into a tile one jump away. Depending a lot on map making but typically there isn't 3 good tiles adjacent to your home system. So doing the warfare secondary is less important because having another carrier won't help much turn 1.
@@BeyondtheBoard Thank you. So 1 carrier with 2 inf to a system with 2 planets. and another 1 carrier with 2 inf to another system with 2 planets is that correct? so you are claiming 2 systems in turn 1?
Warfare really depends on if you can stall your opponents out. If you can have your opponents activate their home systems and build first then they can't build in their home system from the secondary and move out their next turn. Just because a strategy card helps you, doesn't mean it is the best card. Because I almost never pick Warfare because having the option to do the secondary can be more beneficial than just picking a token off an activated system at times.
Personally for me. Warfare is either S tier or B tier depending on how many transports you start with. If you already start with 2C4I or equivalent, you don’t need warfare whereas if you don’t, warfare is crucial. Diplomacy I would put behind Imperial as in round 1 - you’d be giving everyone else the same benefit at the cost of a command counter. So really you’re only gaining 1 command counter net. Tech and Trade I would put in A tier and I regard them as equal overall. Depending on factions of course. Some factions like Jolnar shouldn’t pick Tech at all for example whereas Hacan wouldn’t pick Trade at all. Everything else is accurate, though I would value politics ahead of leadership.
Ya politics > leadership. Except if there's a valuable secondary beyond tech and warfare. For instance, if you get a round 1 diplomacy, the value of leadership goes way up since you can't normally follow 3 strategy cards.
@@BeyondtheBoard Picking technology is equal to saving up 4 resources and a token. Only thing warfare gives is an extra readied system at the start of the next round (and ur cc redistributed). Which is worth 5 resources at best (only abyz/fria or bereg/lirta comes to mind), but usually less. It depends on what race your playing i guess and what kind of map. If u pick trade you can usually come to a deal with the warfare player when to time his card and end up with more trade goods and resources and still get your extra system. Overall In my opinion, this makes warfare less important than tech and trade but there are occasional instances where warfare might be better but not Stier.
@@AdvancedSquadLeader I had warfare first turn and maybe I was Ghosts? But I happened to have an Alpha wormhole right next to my start and the other wormhole was adjacent to M. Rex, with my Grav Drive I was able to move into orbit on turn one. It was a fun move, but didn't break the game open for me or anything because I couldn't take it without the influence
I think your 1st analysis of the different races is really good. I haven't seen other channels do that
Great video man. Really clear and helpful information
Very good tier list! I am a newer player at 6 games. And this helped a lot! I just did the opening Warfare move last night playing Fed of Sol in P. of Kings. And it really helped. I put out most of my ships on a single planet. Then move into the next three planet spot, followed by moving into a planet space on the right of the first taken area. This will give me 13 influence which will open my second leader on first turn. Plus my starting planet home has 4 so I can get a tech!
Wonder if I can do anything else to help new players? Hmmm....
good video man, enjoyed the commentary as you just being yourself and sharing your opinion
A post-PoK faction tier list would be amazing. I just played my first game of Twilight Imperium and am about to play my second and would love feedback from someone more experienced so I know if the factions I like are as good as I think or if I'm liking things that are good on paper or bad in-game, or even just knowing what things are meta-dependent. Thanks for the tech tier list!
I don't have too much experience with the game but as a rule of thumb unless the race you're interested in is one of the really complicated races like nekro (in which case maybe try to get more experience under your belt before playing them) don't worry about a race being strong or weak, it's better to be the underdog for five hours while having fun than to just steamroll the competition in a way you find boring. That said nobody got nerfed and a lot if not all of the bottom tier factions got buffed back into viability (some were arguably buffed way too hard like winnu) so yeah, if a race was good in the base game it will still be pretty good now, and if it was bad it's now probably playable and to be honest a lot more flavourful and fun (sardakk used to be bottom tier trash in terms of power and also kinda boring to play, but with their new emphasis on skipping space combat directly into ground combat and their beefy mech and the various ways to amass infantry with pok they're really fun).
I like your analysis. Thanks. )
With POK the original list hasnt changed for me.
S (Tech)
A (Warfare, Trade)
B (Leadership, Politics)
C (Construction)
D (Imperial, Diplomacy)
Its quite simple really.
Tech lets you stall for warfare so you always will be able to build, and is quite valuable as you're always able to spend your resources on a warfare build. In some cases with some factions, you even get to double tech Turn1 Round 1 and exploit anyone dumb enough to take Diplo to refresh your planets.
Trade lets you arrange an optimal time for Warfare and Tech, and also gets you the resources to tech and build off of warfare comfortably. If you're aiming for Mecatol it's mostly a question as to whether or not you buy speaker or sell it. That's why if Tech has been taken or I'm looking to take mecatol the number one question I always ask the person to take strategy card next is always. If I took trade, would you take politics and sell me speaker? Because you're going to end up with more resources with trade than if you sold speaker.
Warfare by its very nature of letting you take more planets than most early on is a godsend for some factions like saar, and rearrange your fleet supply early to make room for a bit more manuvering. It's the premiere early space RISK card to let an aggressive player get a leg up for the equidistant planets or get close enough to mecatol to matter without going blue for Gravity Drive. The only reason its not higher on the list is because with warfare you're essentially weighing the benefit to taking more planets early vs getting an early tech and spending the home resources or trade resources on an earlier plastic advantage which in my opinion always favors the trade player who can afford to give you a favorable trade and still come out ahead or the tech player who cannot be outstalled and will in most cases be able to move the plastic he builds off of warfare and have more of it than you.
Leadership is a great pick. the ability to start turn 2 with a good token pool and not having to spend out of your fleet supply is a godsend to some factions. It's one of the few cards whose secondary hardly anyone gets to use turn 1 that purely benefits the player, but it's still a static sum of 9 influence compared with the dynamism of the better-ranked cards.
Politics is crucial later down the line, as controlling who gets speaker gets more and more essential for determining the winner of the game, but as a round 1 pick the only reason you're grabbing politics is to get one of the cards mentioned above or to take leadership and make a play for mecatol turn 2 without being opposed. Turn two mecatol isn't as guaranteed as it used to be is why it's down here in the B tier for first picks.
Construction is great. There are a swathe of new objectives related to structures that bump this card up to be a great pick turn 1 if you have none of the above cards or if any of these objectives have come out. For most factions having a second space dock or a forward space dock is key to later game success, but it is not as important as expansion or tech, and doesn't help much r1. You're better off spending one of your leadership tokens on the forward dock than the construction player is putting down his forward dock after moving out 1 hex from home.
D tier is simple reasoning.
Diplo is hard to get the timing right for, and EVERYONE else at the table will gain more than you do
Imperial is simply for the secret and not to be stalled out of warfare. Even if you could score twice the benefit to doing that is very small as you likely wont be able to score on turn 2 balancing it down to simply the one secret.
I should have you write scripts for me :D
@@BeyondtheBoard aw shucks im blushing
"If I took trade, would you take politics and sell me speaker?" ... does not work in round 1 as you're most likely not neigbors to do this kind of transaction. I think.
@@stephanmobius1380 doesn't stop you from making a deal, say you'll give em the trade when you inevitably end up neighbors. He is in the slice next to you after all. And also sets him up to pick 2nd next round.
Diplomacy in general is very clunky because it’s common to want the first ability right away but have nothing exhausted
You're ignoring something when you consider Trade. As the Trade player, you don't get trade goods that you would otherwise get, if another Trade player lets you get commodities (with you owing them 1). Also, you might not get some of the trade goods until the end of round 2, when you can trade with non-neighbours. You also need to make neighbours.
Two other advantages of Technology is that you're playing after Warfare, so you're much less likely to be stalled. Also, the first-round strategy token can be very impactful (you can follow Warfare and another card such as Diplo or Construction for a 2nd Space Dock; and Construction might not be picked 2nd round). Finally, when you compare Trade with Technology you ignore the advantage of choosing the timing for Technology. This is much better than choosing the Timing for Trade, which might be awkward as you want to take planets first (for Diplo/Construction) and probably want a neighbour first (so that they don't backstab you); Tech is very likely popped before Trade and then you might miss Tech round 1.
If there are factions with less than 4 resources in their home system, taking and using Technology on the first turn can prevent them from following (unless they used Trade as their first action too)
I played a game as the argent flight the other day and that happened to me
I'm thankful I came across your comment. Totally correct, now if I can remember it tomorrow to try breakdown what strategies to avoid with certain factions and which are best suited R1.
Interesting tier list. Never would had thought that trade would be where it is in the list!
I personally value politics over leadership.
Ya, I would probably take politics over leadership unless some good secondary (Diplomacy) were in round 1 for some reason.
instaBlaster...
If you want more then 3 trade goods you need to give your opponents (and neighbours to) trade goods, so the different in gain is not 10. Tech is nr 7 AFTER warfare, trade is nr 5 before warfare. So tech is still king
Current meta for online games is a debt of 1 TG for a free commodity refresh, so I'm assuming that and you can generally get a free exchange too. If there's a Hacan, 2 commodity factions, or just different meta it would change the value of the card.
I do think tech slightly edges out because you save the token for another potential secondary, after consideration.
Combine Diplomacy (2) with the XXCHA Kingdom's racial ability of acquiring planets through diplomacy. It works.
I guess trade will depend on if there is a Hackan or not, is there's no hackan, on turn 1 you will have no neighborns and trade will give you only 3 and i dont know if the other players will give you 1 trade good to replenish if they had no neighborns, although maybe they could have neighborns on turn 2 and exchange then.
I've been playing a lot on tabletop simulator lately. I typically find a turn 1 neighbor if you have trade to be easy, often times others will throw away a token just to move next to you. It's kind of strange actually.
@@BeyondtheBoard I think moving a trade ship to get resources in round 1 is valuable in a lot of cases, even though it seems like it'd be the same as just doing the secondary of trade.
- By sending a trade ship, you're getting resources early, so you can use them for either warfare or tech
- It's a stall, as you're waiting for the right strategy cards to get played
- You're filling an open space, which could protect you from the neighbor you're trading with
I think your tier list was pretty spot on.
@@Dac0Trilar Ya, I think it's an excellent stall for warfare, I have gotten caught convincing someone else to send a neighboring ship to trade and missed out on warfare because I didn't leave a "trade ship" open!
I would put Diplomacy up a tier level, and probably Politics down one, but otherwise I agree.
Can someone explain to me please why Trade is valued so high here? You gain 3 trade goods and replenish for free. And that's it. You can't ask the others to give you massproducts in exchange for a free replenish, because that would be transaction and requires to be neighbors, which you probably are not in round 1.
You cannot however you can make a non binding agreement for a trade good in the future when you're neighbors
Listing i just threw together (i am noob, but been preparing for 2 weeks for 4th game)
TI4- 17 faction
WARFARE- (I only based on increasing planet control for r1)
Mentak, Winnu, Xxcha, Jol Nar, Yin Bros.
Arborec, Sol
Saar- very greedy control. Other factions will want this card as well, top 2 lines are the factions that "most need," or "somewhat need." The secondary will be sufficient for most to take 1-2 planets, systems.
TECH
L1, Mentak, Naalu, Hacan
TRADE- anyone potentially for the 3 TG's
Jol Nar, Yssaril, Natalie, Winnu, Arborec, Saar, Hacan, Xxcha
LEADERSHIP- based on Adrim cc need opinion
Arborec, Saar, Yssaril, L1, Muaat, Sol, Xxcha, Naalu
POLITICS
Yssaril or anyone making 2nd round push for M. Rex with Warfare, or need Tech (Cruiser II)
CONSTRUCTION- most can use secondary, but would need someone to take
Hacan or Mentak (HS pds network,) Letnev & Sardakk (double space dock HS,) Naalu (fighter production near HS,) Saar (Forward production sys. [M.Rex or adjacent])
DIPLOMACY- 2 planet refresh is good early rounds
Xxcha- if backend selection and no one has taken, could get you R1 neighbor for transactions.
Muaat- protect your War Sun from mobile players near you, should have advantage.
Anyone with mobile neighbors you believe will target your HS if left unprotected.
IMPERIAL
Last to choose SC and secret objective fits better than the other 2 cards.
Think you can make the 1st 2 objectives, and you want aggression towards you.
Only my thoughts and I am still new to the game. Have only played 3 3 player games (mostly incomplete) to learn, which were mostly combat oriented not objective targeting.
I've been attempting to collect information to improve myself, my group, and to help educate friends we can influence to join us.
can someone explain the 2 Carrier 4 Infantry (2C4I) Warfare Primary start/move? Im new to the game
Most ppl reference it because with a carrier + 2 infantry you can take most starting tiles (minus the new 3 planet ones). So if you have 2C4I you can take any two starting tiles and warfare primary into a tile one jump away.
Depending a lot on map making but typically there isn't 3 good tiles adjacent to your home system. So doing the warfare secondary is less important because having another carrier won't help much turn 1.
@@BeyondtheBoard Thank you. So 1 carrier with 2 inf to a system with 2 planets. and another 1 carrier with 2 inf to another system with 2 planets is that correct? so you are claiming 2 systems in turn 1?
@@Antonin1738 Round 1 technically but ya exactly.
Warfare really depends on if you can stall your opponents out. If you can have your opponents activate their home systems and build first then they can't build in their home system from the secondary and move out their next turn. Just because a strategy card helps you, doesn't mean it is the best card. Because I almost never pick Warfare because having the option to do the secondary can be more beneficial than just picking a token off an activated system at times.
Great callout that I should have mentioned!
Personally for me. Warfare is either S tier or B tier depending on how many transports you start with. If you already start with 2C4I or equivalent, you don’t need warfare whereas if you don’t, warfare is crucial.
Diplomacy I would put behind Imperial as in round 1 - you’d be giving everyone else the same benefit at the cost of a command counter. So really you’re only gaining 1 command counter net.
Tech and Trade I would put in A tier and I regard them as equal overall. Depending on factions of course. Some factions like Jolnar shouldn’t pick Tech at all for example whereas Hacan wouldn’t pick Trade at all.
Everything else is accurate, though I would value politics ahead of leadership.
Ya politics > leadership. Except if there's a valuable secondary beyond tech and warfare. For instance, if you get a round 1 diplomacy, the value of leadership goes way up since you can't normally follow 3 strategy cards.
I personally prefer technology and trade over Warfare.
Why is that?
@@BeyondtheBoard Picking technology is equal to saving up 4 resources and a token. Only thing warfare gives is an extra readied system at the start of the next round (and ur cc redistributed). Which is worth 5 resources at best (only abyz/fria or bereg/lirta comes to mind), but usually less. It depends on what race your playing i guess and what kind of map. If u pick trade you can usually come to a deal with the warfare player when to time his card and end up with more trade goods and resources and still get your extra system. Overall In my opinion, this makes warfare less important than tech and trade but there are occasional instances where warfare might be better but not Stier.
@@mortaljokes Good points!
@@BeyondtheBoard thank you!
"I don't think you could take Mecatol Rex and imperial turn one"
I've done it twice. It's very possible. It's very glorious...
@Nathan Struble you can't take the token, from my knowledge! But you can certainly take the orbit
What combination is needed for this?
@@AdvancedSquadLeader it's been so long since I've played I couldn't even tell you 🤣
@@AdvancedSquadLeader I had warfare first turn and maybe I was Ghosts? But I happened to have an Alpha wormhole right next to my start and the other wormhole was adjacent to M. Rex, with my Grav Drive I was able to move into orbit on turn one. It was a fun move, but didn't break the game open for me or anything because I couldn't take it without the influence
@@AdvancedSquadLeader second time was I Nekro, but I can't tell you the specifics.. 18 months of lockdown has done a number on my memory.