Dramatic sopranos - HUGE voice moments (Part 2)
Vložit
- čas přidán 5. 07. 2024
- Part 2 of the long promised dramatic soprano "HUGE voice moments" series. This is more a general 'best of' style video than the first ( • Dramatic sopranos - HU... ), including more technical achievements such as dynamics and coloratura as well the big notes we love. As usual, I tried to include both popular clips and rarer cuts, so hopefully you'll find something you haven't seen before.
Featured artists:
0:00 Rosa Ponselle
1:48 Kirsten Flagstad
3:08 Gina Cigna
4:24 Zinka Milanov
5:43 Gertrude Grob-Prandl
7:17 Birgit Nilsson
8:24 Maria Callas
9:52 Gwyneth Jones
10:48 Ghena Dimitrova
I tried to accommodate requests as much as possible but sometimes felt forced to trim things a little too much to save space, which makes the video a little choppy in some parts. Next time, I will probably focus on less artists again and also maybe more on low notes.
Some corrections:
- The first Isolde clip for Flagstad is from 1948.
- Grob Prandl's Turandot clip is from 1953.
- Sorry for misspelling Gioconda...
- Milanov's B-flat pp is from 1962 not 1957.
- Nilsson's F4 in the Tosca clip is not flat. Please ignore the miscaption.
- Callas' Nabucco C-sharp is just a sharp C (correct tape-speed)
- Jones' Isolde clips are pitched a half-step higher than they should be. The notes written are still correct.
- Dimitrova’s Turandot clips are pitched a little too high. The notes written are still correct except the second C is probably a little flat.
Some of my observations while making this video...
Germanic dramatic sopranos were much more conservative with their use of chest voice compared to Italianate ones. To their credit, their low head tones seemed to project well enough, whereas Italianate sopranos sometimes lose audibility in the bottom of their head voice.
Ponselle did not have a short top, or even a low tessitura really.
Flagstad's voice was surprisingly agile. Maybe not the fastest in her coloratura, but very accurate.
I thought the B-flats of Grob-Prandl and Flagstad sounded like they would match well together (so I imagined this for fun: czcams.com/video/07MWSHLCyG0/video.html). It is a shame there is very few occasions/opportunity for dramatic sopranos to sing together.
Nilsson had a very good low register, seems it was a conscious choice not to use it much. We now also have an idea of what her high F might have sounded like!
Dimitrova might be a candidate for (one of) the biggest voice(s) ever... Potentially also a forerunner for biggest chest voice in sopranos.
And in general, many dramatic sopranos seemed to have pitch issues... I guess it is logical though, the heavier the voice, the harder it is to keep it securely on pitch.
Dramatic Soprano
There is no chest voice.
All vibrations were made by the vocal cords into the head.
Touch a bass onto his chest.
You will feel nearly no vibratios.
The litte ones you feel you cannot hear
@@achmedmohamed4708
Just as there is no head voice. They are just names given within the study of vocal technique to designate the combination of muscles used. And mainly to facilitate understanding. Vocal register is different from vocal resonance. 95% of the voice is resonated in the oropharyngeal cavity.
Maria callas was never a dramatic soprano but a mezzo soprano who developed her high register, her middle chest voice is darker and heavier than any of these dramatic sopranos even Rosa Ponselle still has a soprano quality
@@HlombeSiswana I don’t agree at all. In fact I think her voice is higher and brighter than all of them when she wasn’t overdarkening her sound by depressing her larynx.
@@dramaticsoprano5168 Maria Callas was a mezzo soprano , she pushed her voice to sound big like a dramatic soprano which is strange because a dramatic soprano doesn't has to push her voice to sound bigger . Callas middle register sounded heavier and darker like shirley verrett who was a dramatic mezzo soprano who sang dramatic soprano roles later on but the difference is that she mostly would come back to the middle register in order to feel more comfortable just like Callas and her tessitura sat between G3 and G5 which is the tessitura of a mezzo soprano, Callas tessitura sat lower than other dramatic sopranos like Rosa ponselle and also she would have a harder time maintaining the high tessitura of the song
Flagstad, Nilsson and Callas are the 3 best sopranos of all time... OMG i train every day to touch their feet, but as June Anderson once said Maria is a legend and we cant even touch her feet.
The best sopano is Virginia Zeani
@@annatorrestur3078 maybe in your dreams.
@@theoperatripleaxel5417Are you speaking about sopranos or about germanic dramatic sopranos? If you are talking about germanic dramatic sopranos, Callas maybe in your dreams, and Anderson too.
@@theoperatripleaxel5417 Zeani is incredible, and at the level of these 3 singers.
Opinions! Ponselle is the greatest soprano of the last century - - comparisons with Nautica, Eames, Melba, etc. can’t really be made given technology.
Callas, Milanov ,Dimithrova : très spectaculaires
0:06 this is the most unique about Rosa Ponselle
Rosa Ponselle é fantástica!
Nillson screaming with high F 😍
Gertrude Grob-Prandl is the biggest of all in size. What a thunderous instrument.
Rosa Ponselle is the standout performer - she mostly sings/acts believably. That’s what sets her apart.
Callas was phenomenal, unique..
I think Callas' voice is a bit uncanny, but in a good way. I like her androgynous castrato-like chest voice. Some high notes that are more cool than beautiful. It doesn't sound entirely healthy though. With Birgit Nilsson I almost never hear any pushing and definitely never any forcing. The only time it sounds like she really has to dig deep is in Turandot's high Cs (not to say there was ever any problem doing it).
Nilsson's top notes were blasts unlike any others I've ever heard; being gleaming, perfectly placed and sung in tune notes (as opposed to screams) without losing color, focus or placement. Her chest voice was just a powerful! You did not include enough clips of her magnificent top notes! Love these. Jones' clips hear show her in good voice. I love hearing Flagstad in anything. Her "Ah, Perfido!" is amazing for such a large voice. Thanks!
You are right. The microphones then could not capture the full impact of her voice. You had to see her live. It was not only the sheer volume but, that volume also came with a laser focus that cut through steel. I saw her live several times and her high notes would literally pin you to your seat.
you saw her live in what roles?@@dyby
I saw her in Turandot, Tosca, Isolda, Salomé and the Ring Brunnhilde’s.
how was she in these roles? especially turandot? i guess you watched her in the 1960s maybe? 1965 is my favourite nilsson turandot recording. Was her voice as HUGE and enormous as people say? the forte/fortissimo high notes etc@@dyby
So exciting. It makes me wonder what this video would have been like if you only used sopranos born after 1950. Certainly we would get a very different sound and we'd be able to say objectively that they literally don't make them like this anymore.
To varying degrees, the amount of squillo each of these ladies could produce was incredible.
All of them so amazing and such huge instruments, but Callas hits you differently...La Primadonna!
Thank you for this video, amazing channel!
The sad part is we don’t hear this kind of singing today…
I remember ppl used to say Saioa Hernández was bringing back something but personally never been a fan of her. Also, I’m curious what you think of Dimitrova.
@@dramaticsoprano5168
Love both of them
Maria Callas of course! A versatile singer.
Callas! ❤
All wonderful sopranos… one addition not necessarily dramatic.. but what a sound she produced.. Regine Crespin
That C in the end of act 2 of Medea on the standard Italian translation must be one of the trickiest sounds to pronounce. I think Callas herself only did the text as written once in Florence. I don't think I've heard it in the original French, but suspect it's equally hard to match note and word
Rosa .......😁😍🤩
What is the name of the aria in the part of Dimitrova’s Tosca C6 😢 it’s incredible
It is from the final scene of Tosca. It is not really an aria but it might be called something like "Franchigia a Floria Tosca" or "O dolci mani" under streaming services. Here is where I extracted it from: czcams.com/video/YnOnbxOSZNk/video.html
Le contre Ut de Callas dans Médéa ,❤️👍👍
Jones to win it! ❤
The Great Leyla Gencer
the commentator do not probably have an idea bout Gina Cigna, wait 'til they discover Maria Pedrini and Celestina Boninsegna.
7:51 O Scarpia, avanti a Dio
Leyla Gencer
zinka milanov voice was so ringing
9:50 the greatest soprano high C ever
A little mistake. It's came out one minute earlier on 8:38.
@@omarsomehow69 Not even close. Nilsson had better high Cs than that one which is too harsh and ugly. Her best high C is in Turandot but it still can't beat Callas' Medea high C.
@@BaroneVitellioScarpia1 harsh and ugly - the main characteristics of Callas top notes. In this particular scene, Calllasian top C being produced with strident tone and unsteady wobbly oscillations. Nilsson, on the other side, dead on pitch, vibrato is even, with secure attack and brilliant tone. That's a difference. Nilsson always superior to Callas when it comes to top and many other things as well.
@@omarsomehow69 Callas' high C is much rounder than Nilsson's and it's definitely not wobbly. And I don't think Nilsson could reach a high E flat, so she surely didn't have better top than Callas.
@@BaroneVitellioScarpia1 9:50 rounder with attack which goes above the pitch? This sound a definition of unclear unsteady emission, opposite of roundness. And of course Nilsson could reach an E - flat and even higher, but not on the record. She sang Queen of the Night big aria backstage. But the main difference between Callas and Nilsson, Nilsson was a high dramatic soprano with high extension and Callas a dramatic coloratura soprano. The main point is: Bb, B and C for spinto/dramatic soprano = D, Eb, E for dramatic coloratura like Callas. Beside that, the size of Callasian top Eb's, E's or whatever can't be equal to Flagstad, Tebaldi or Nilsson top notes. And let's not even mention the quality of the voice, in which criteria Callasian voice below all mentioned singers.
The sheer size of Flagstad’s column of sound is really something. It is massive and hits one in the face. It must really have been something live. Some of the others (including Nilsson and Cigna) have very penetrating voices and techniques. But the column of sound isn’t as thick.
Ponselle’s agility is really remarkable considering that she was a real Italian dramatic soprano.
Callas is my favourite, but I continue to not be convinced that she was a dramatic soprano. Dramatic coloratura, certainly. But her tessitura is higher than the other singers here, and while the voice is penetrating and dark, it is not as thick and weighty. I am _not_ saying that her voice was light. I am saying that it wasn’t as heavy as people like Cigna and Ponselle, let alone Flagstad. The comparison of the Kundry excerpts here between Flagstad and Callas is extremely instructive. I hope that discussion regarding Callas here can be constructive. It unfortunately often is not.
I also think that Jones was a jugendliche dramatische soprano and that it was a mistake for her to take on the heavier Wagner roles from a purely vocal standpoint. As for Mlanov, I think she was an Italian dramatic soprano, but not as heavy as Ponselle or Cigna. Milanov had a higher tessitura. Milanov also sounded heavier in the 40s than the 50s, when she was husbanding her resources and not singing as full-bodied, particularly down low.
Callas' technique is completely different from Ponselle and Flagstad to begin with. It's impossible to categorise her next to them. Even "dramatic coloratura" (dramatico d'agilita) was only invented in 1949 when an italian critic heard Callas in Puritani. My personal view is her technique was composite of different approaches to have a wider range, that's why she had three distinctive voices. Unlike the typical 20th century soprano who works hard to even out her voice yet in exchange lose range. I totally get what you mean by her voice isn't as thick and weighty. I always thought her voice despite being very dark, it was airy with a soaring quality. unlike Varnay for example who had a dense wall of sound. But bare in mind the Kundry excerpts of Callas is from a radio performance, not an opera house performance. Close-miking is extremely misleading. It exposes the voice a lot and doesn't give it a space to bloom like in the opera house.
@@Khalid7a Just saw your comment. I tend to agree with you. I think that Callas’s Kundry is a misleading performance for the reason you state (close miking). I relistened to it recently, and although she performs very well, she has got to be the lightest Kundry on record. Certainly the one with the highest tessitura. Interestingly, though, she doesn’t push at all, unlike in her performances of the verismo and Puccini rep. Sometimes, it feels like she is almost singing lieder in Italian. So so different than Flagstad’s later live recording of Kundry, which is like watching a freight train go full blast.
@@ER1CwCThe point is, It's not either you're Flagstad (in weight) or you're not a dramatic soprano. Flagstad (along with Ponselle, Farrell, Varnay, and Traubel) were the exception, not the rule. Other like Borkh, Nilsson, Rysanek, Mödl (who's regarded as the best Kundry) all had a lighter voices. Even lighter than Callas to my ears. Yet they're still considered among the best dramatic sopranos.
Milanov was a spinto soprano, just like Tebaldi. Their natural voices are very similar. She just had much better technique in the high notes than Tebaldi and of course much more consistent. Also Tebaldi brought all the weight up and sang more "thickly" than Milanov up there who ligthened more than Tebaldi when it comes to the high notes. Both had very good middle and chest voice development
@@judygarland7186 I think this is a plausible analysis, although the Met people in the 50s considered Milanov a dramatic soprano. I do think Milanov’s registers were better integrated though earlier on, particularly at the lower end. The Tebaldi cultists on this platform are going to jump down your throat for saying that Milanov had a much better technique.
Ponselle est admirable mais elle transpose d'un ton dans sempre libera .
The first video of rosa ponselle singing is not on the right pitch...guess it's because of recording problems😢 there's a video in youtbe which corrected to the right pitch by youtuber barone-scarpia
Is it too high or too low?
@@dramaticsoprano5168 It's higher than the right pitch :):) czcams.com/video/rK5X7pEAdTc/video.html here's the video! Before I saw this , I was wondering whether she was lip-synching... because her jaw and the movement of her lips doesn't seem to be coincide with the music! The corrected version sounds much powerful
I’ve always heard Milanov as a spinto?
Yes probably, I've seen her even classified as lirico-spinto. But she was convincing in dramatic roles and was heavily requested after part 1 so I included her. Callas also likely wasn't a pure dramatic soprano. Maybe even Nilsson to some.
Gracias.
Y Eva Marton ?
@@beachfanatic2010 As Turandot ?
@@pablodemarcos5379 Eva Marton is naturally a lyric soprano who pushed her voice. But naturally was forcing!
@@beachfanatic2010 Forcing in all in her (big and long) career with a lot of Turandot, all Wagner, and Fanciulla, Gioconda, Chenier, and heavy Verdi ?
Stay in yr. opinion, but I don't agree.
What about Leontyne ?
And Verrett ? And Bumbry ?
@@pablodemarcos5379 She sang with an extremely damaged voice all of her career. Everybody knows that in the opera world. She had a lyric voice. Price was a light lyric. Bumbry was a lyric soprano and Verret was a real spinto on the lighter side.
Grob-Prandl according to many who heard her live claimed the voice was immense. Louder than Nilsson. Another immense voice: Regine Crespin. According to those who heard her live, she drowned out Nilsson in Act 3 of Die Walkure
Crespin had a voice, but screaming is not singing. It's a badly - emitted instrument with hollow middle and relatively fast declined top. Next to La Nilsson, she is a phoney amatuer.
@@omarsomehow69 That is ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.
@@Ruffiello ridiculous to say that Nilsson better singer than Crespin with her average technique?
@@omarsomehow69 There was nothing average about Crespin's voice or technique. Anyone that can sing as well as she did, in such varied repertoire, has a first-rate technique. It's true that later in her career she lost some notes on top. She herself said that this happened when she stopped working it. I'm a singer. I've sung professionally for many years. I know what it takes to keep a voice working in good condition.
@@Ruffiello i never said about Crespin and her voice. The voice is there, not an ordinary one. Big sound, but that's not what great singing about. However, you can observe her career and you can made some conclusions about it. Crespin sang with density on top, yes, but it's also covered with unpleasant metallic sound. She had nothing below her f/ff either. In verismo she also demonstrated her lack of middle, which is essential for this type of singing line. I don't see it as great technical ability, especially next to Nilsson.
Seria Genial si incluyeras a Tebaldi en otra parte, especialmente en su mejor momento.
I think some people might complain if I included her because she was pretty much 100% spinto color (and also Tebaldi seems to have a lot of anti-fans in general, not sure why..)
Maybe for part 3 I will just say "Big sopranos" instead of "Dramatic sopranos".
@@dramaticsoprano5168 Callas Fans o copias de "Opera my world" 😆
@@dramaticsoprano5168 i need to ask you something. There is a La Gioconda broadcast with Milanov in 1957. Only one tape during this year. However, this is doesn't sound like audio from broadcast. Is there different tape during this year or it's just a mistake, because it doesn't sounds like her voice from 1957, but rather post - 1957 voice, due to the fact that oscillations less pronounced than in 1957.
@@omarsomehow69I did not get the clip from a full broadcast, rather I just extracted it from this video: czcams.com/video/abdZIttzkUE/video.html (OperaMyWorld video)
In the caption, the uploader says that B-flat is from 1957. I'm not sure if he is mistaken or if there was another broadcast that wasn't captured in full.
@@dramaticsoprano5168 the famous B - flat being taken from 1962 in - house tape not 1957 broadcast. That was her last La Gioconda. She was 56 y.o. during her final Gioconda, by the way.
I thought Netrebko would be in the mix.
Does she have a huge voice? I have never heard her live.
Not going to happen. Too big in terms of volume. I mean, her tencnique is so great that she produce every single note with trIiIIIiIIIIiIIIiIl.
@@dramaticsoprano5168 they're being sarcastic... She wrecked her voice singing dramatic rep that didn't fit it
@@dramaticsoprano5168Netrebko’s voice is big but lacks squillo. It’s a pretty, velvety sound that has no business in spinto repertoire. I think she could’ve been much better had she kept singing like she did in her debut in “Ruslan and Liudmila,” because that was the right sound. Now the sound has been swallowed for decades and the cords ruined.
Ci sarebbe stata anche la Tebaldi che in quanto a volume ...non era da meno anzi...mah....
Tebaldi was probably ahead of many here.
The strange thing to me in Nilsson's Abigaille, apart from her huge high C, is that her Anch'io dischiuso is not well phrased, fluid, her voice doesn't express much, it's unpolished in the transitions from one note to another, not belcanto at all, a bit primitive musically.
Her elephantesque voice is both a quality in heroic squared singing...and a handicap in the cantabile parts.
That was a decade where she didn't discover herself. She didn't become La Nilsson yet. And gladly, she never sang the role on stage, since she knew the limits of her voice. But it's truth, flexibility one of her weakest point.
Also in the 1960 Leinsdorf DG as Donna Anna you will hear the same inbalance in the cantabile pieces. At the other hand, kind of sweet to hear a more vulnerable Nilsson.
@electricxcircus again, she recorded big aria only in years where didn't become La Nilsson yet. She didn't receive any training at this field and mostly self - taught. She never had a trills and fluid flexibility. What's next? Is that a crime to recorded one big aria? She never sang a role on stage. And what about, for example, Callasian Ballo with ghastly sharp top singing? Uneven registers transitions? She never recorded operas that doesn't suit her voice? Her Manon Lescaut recording is dreadful. Reportedly, she had to recorded Fanciulla, but for some reasons being replaced with Nilsson. And thanks god it's happened, because who want to listen a cry at night instead of actual voice?
@electricxcircus wrong. Weak low register? It's not like you going to tell judging by one recorded aria that Nilsson don't have any low notes. In Strauss there plenty to execute. In Die Frau extension goes into contralto tessitura in which Nilsson cope with very well. In Ballo there no any low notes? Doesn't really matter if you going to take 1951 version of big aria or entire 1957 tape or even studio tape, Nilsson will be superior in bottom completely. In the middle also. And let's not even mention the top. The thing that you trying to prove certain things that you don't even trying. Nilsson never had bel canto flexibility because she didn't train herself for that style. She don't have a real trills either. Never. Just some occasional facsimile of it. One thing if she perform this role on daily basis, but another thing when she recorded big aria once. It's not like Callas never recorded/performed a roles that doesn't suit her. Puccini is not for her. Verismo is not for her. Late Verdi is not for her. When she trying to sustain those long dramatic singing lines, she started to worn out and her issues being exposed under the pressure of length of singing line and the size of orchestra. Her Aida, Ballo, Turandot (of any kind), Tosca and many other roles they both shared is a desperate cry next to Nilsson.
Why no Sutherland?
I don't hear any flat notes from Nilsson here. The middle F not flat at all. However, the voice is very focused and huge. Any orchestra is no match to her.
You are right, it is not flat. I'm not sure why I thought that on first listen... I will add a correction.
Btw, what do you think about her high F scream? It is not a toneless scream imo. Do you think she could have sung that note?
@@dramaticsoprano5168 according to some surviving witnesses or someone who's about to die, Nilsson can sing Queen of the Night big aria with 4 complete high F's. So, for me it's not secret that she a very high - placed dramatic soprano with extension, not dramatic coloratura alla Callas.
@@omarsomehow69 It's somehow interesting to see Nilsson and Callas fans arguing about size under this video when they are both among the smallest voices in this video. Probably above Milanov.
@@divinitesdustyx5312 Nilsson not smallest here. Above Callas and Milanov certainly. Jones - huge voice, but a manufactured one. Not a dramatic soprano either.
@@omarsomehow69 I said "among the smallest" not "the smallest". Ponselle, Flagstad, Cigna, Prandl and Dimitrova all certainly bigger. Jones was louder as well, I heard both live.
Also not included here - but Marton, Rysanek, Resnik etc could match her.
At 08:23
Here comes the soprano Maria Kalogeropoulos who sounds old like her own old mother.
I heared Birgit Nilsson very often.
Also Jones and Dimitrova.
II met Gina Cigna 1972 in Mondello Lido (Palermo).
The wobble was always there in Callas's voice. She was an artist, a _virtuoso_ singer and, maybe, a good actress (not for me, too histrionic, but I'm not a theater _connaisseur),_ but her sheer voice was ugly, unsteady and she tended to scream in the high notes. That's the honest truth.
You are wrong … the wobble in Callas’ voice was not always there. You shouldn’t make such broad statements - go do your homework. Listen to her recordings both live and studio and you will find the wobble is mostly not there at all.
@Peter Surace
I love Callas in general, however, the large "vibrato" has been much more of a problem than not. It eventually was so wide you could drive a truck through it 😊 It was evident in the early 1950s and just got worse.
However, for everything she brought to the table as a whole, I (as most of her fans) just overlook it.
.....but, denying it existed is silly
😎😎😎
you cant scream and do dinámica at the same time 🤦♂️
There is not one singer today that sings this way, on the edge, with no safety net. I first attended opera at the Met in 1957 and heard the great post war singers and not one ever stinted in their tone (except Anna Moffo, who crooned). Ghena Dimitriva , Jessy Norman, Mirella Freni, Renata Scotto, and Fiorenza Cossotto and Aprile Millo were the last generous singers who sang on the edge.
Croon?
Lolol....um, no
😎😎😎
Leyla Gencer