Can you remove METHANOL by tossing foreshots
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- čas přidán 5. 08. 2024
- Have you ever heard that you toss out foreshots in order to remove methanol from your moonshine? Me too. In fact, I've been hearing that for over 30 years. What if I told you that isn't true. I was surprised to learn that when I run my pot still there is barely any methanol in the foreshots or heads.
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• Ep 002 Methanol Part 2
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I work as an analytical chemist and ran a recent corn and barley mash on headspace GC. The results on foreshots was 27ppm (0.0027%) and 24ppm(0.0024%) in my combined cuts. I'm running a rye mash this weekend, I'll drop some results on methanol throughout the run in a couple weeks if anyone is interested.
I'm very interested. Also in the set up you're using.
@@StillnTheClear 15.5 gallon(half barrel) keg, 3” column with varying heights and packing depending on the run. For “pot still” typical heights are between 3-4.5’ however this weekend I will be experimenting with a much shorter height. I’m going to run a 45 degree to a 90 and attach a 3”x2’ condenser. So, column height will probably be a foot or less. I run 4500 watt element on 240v.
Rye mash burnt! I’ll be running batch 2 of UJSSM this weekend and will get data on that run.
2nd Gen. UJSSM, distilled down to 45 proof before cutting it off. The Methanol results are as follows.
First 100ml (172 proof) MeOH=20.3ppm
1000ml (160 proof) MeOH=20.0ppm
@ 80 proof MeOH=19.3ppm
@ 45 proof MeOH=18.6ppm
Happy to prepare more analytical testing if we want something specific that hasn’t been covered. I’m fermenting an Irish single malt and UJSSM Gen. 3 for the next runs.
@@capOlllllOable that is great. Thank you so much for sharing.
If it smells like acetone out it goes
I was also shocked by Adam's video. I'm really glad to see another channel help dispell this misconception. Thanks for sharing!
Excellent info! Have heard different things over time, but this makes sense. I will still throw out the very first % because of the acetone and things, but will reduce what I was "wasting " now!
After reading the comments I now understand why a lot of distillers in big companies also believe in the 3 boiling points at the same time- idea. The idea that when you hit the boiling point of that (pure) susbtance you remove all of it.
Thank you: I make LOTS of wines, Never any problems. My first still, I have been filled with great fear of methanol. Yet at my AGE? what a way to go.
lmao! laying down your life for science hahaa
Very eye opening information, thank you.
Changes things a lil bit. Good work
As a fourth-generation distiller, I can tell you where the poisoning idea comes from. When you scale up to a six or eight hundred gallons still you can get enough methanol to bling and kill people. And the methanol does come off first it burns yellow: ethanol burns blue or clear.
Methanol DOES NOT burn yellow. That is 100% false. czcams.com/video/1ZEEuCHdWFA/video.html
Been shining for a long time. And what this guy's said is bullshit. Their has been many real stories of people who made alot of shine and didn't know to throw out the forshots so they drank it amd ended up in the hospital. Many stories like that and it's always people who don't know what their doing. So they keep the foreshots.. methenol comes off first. Why? Because boiling points. Methonol boils at 148. Ethenol 30 degrees higher. The laws of physics demands it boils off first due to the lower boiling point
So once you get pure blue it's good?
Methanol doesnt burn yellow, it burns clear, have you seen race car drivers beating down invisible flames
Might burn yellow when as a mixture as the OP here has likely witnessed. Could be oils in MeOH making it yellow and pure MeOH burns clear @@azeomcstill5071
Thanks for dispelling these myths. I think what a lot of people think is methanol is actually mixed low molecular weight esters, ketones (acetone) and other solvent smelling components.
Thanks for all the great info Cheers my Friend
Wow that has given me something to think about today set me off on another train of thought thanks not a bad way to start the day 👍
Excellent!
Go and watch the clip by behind the still - he makes it really easy to understand WHY it happens, and that to me is always the handy thing to have.
Thank you for that incredibly valuable information that changes things. We'll maybe for me but not for others as I primarily like to do brandy so gotta be extra careful because of tye pectin. I always knew about the arsenic in apple seeds and cyanide in cherry pits and peach still highly valuable info I'm going to do more research.
You are so welcome, Paul. I'm glad you found it valuable.
Interesting, very interesting.
Great...
Really interesting information sir.
Nice to watch video.
Thanks
Regards
From India, Mumbai.
Thank you, Barban.
I learned something today! Thanks
You bet, Dean.
I'd love to see a spectrometer reading on foreshots. I was always told it was to remove the stuff that makes headaches.
yeah it's got stuff like acetone in which is the main ingredient of nail polish remover, that def gives headaches
@@mackemsruleFTM Fusil oil also in foreshot and nasty.
Methanol, acetone, glycol (both the good and bad kind) all come out in the foreshots. Don't kid yourselves; best case scenario is a really bad hangover (even after moderate consumption), worst case is liver failure and blindness. These compounds are really dangerous.
valuable information, to deal with misinformation…………thank you, from a beginner!
You're welcome.
Very good info ! Thanks
You bet, Sam. I'm glad you liked it.
Good info! I have tasted the first drops out of each run and have never felt right tossing very tasty product 😋
Methanol has never been an issue in moonshine production. Methanol was originally made from distilling wood and was i bi-product, now its made synthetic at a very low cost. The only reason it has any connection to moonshine is that there has been cases where methanol has been used to dilute ethanol as it smells and taste the same but is much cheaper.
Is thatthe same as wood alcohol and either way is just a peice of wood sumpbmerged in water and bread yeast added and possibly white granulated sugar To make methanol (for fuel)
I heard, without attribution, is that the Feds used to poison moonshine with methanol to give shine a bad reputation.
Back in the prohibition people did try to distill out Methanol from industrial alcohol.
You realize that "distilling wood" refers to DESTRUCTIVE DISTILLATION not simple distillation....right? This means the gasification of wood like you do with making bio-char.
there's not any methanol produced by distillation
it's produced by fermentation
during prohibition "wood alcohol" was sometimes added by revenuers to poison drinkers
Yep, sorry.. I misspoke again. lol
Thanks for sharing this information 👍I subscribed ✨
Thanks for the sub!
Good work on this, I’ve been saying this for years, even had several robust discussions with George #RIP and I’ve always wished Jessie would man up and make this type of video.
Good job! Keep up the great content!
Much appreciated. I think it's time we make real efforts to bust the myths surrounding methanol.
Why did you say RIP???
@@MadNlGER I would like to know that answer also.
@@scottq4344 There was a rumor going around a couple months ago that George had passed. Jesse from Still it did a video addressing this rumor and rumors about Bearded and Bored.
From what I heard, he was just taking "a long deserved break".
Thanks!
Thanks for the support, Robert.
Regarding your line about the methanol in wine and beer: this is why it’s illegal to jack cider. As you jack it, you’re isolating and concentrating the ethanol (and apples have LOTS of pectin-more pectin than most other fruits; it’s usually where they industrially derive commercial pectin,) which is why applejack has always had the dark reputation similar to moonshine.
Thanks for the info.
What do you mean by jack?
@bsanchez3563 jacking is apparently fermention freezeing removal of the ice. Shocked that would work.
Please reference the Miss Brew Bird Methanol Explained video as well. She has the best information and she is in the industry.
"most methanol in tails' : I think if you look closely the graph shows (if we are talking about the same study) 'Methanol as a % of Alcohol ' in the tails. Not that the most methanol comes out then but there is more of it collected in relation to ethanol at the end than at the beginning. But there is not much of either and is really only meaningful in a trivial sense. Thanks for the informative video series. Its's great to see thinking people, hillbilliess or not ;) online
Yes in relationship to ethanol in the tails it is higher, But as a matter of quantity, most is in the hearts. Overall, the amounts are minimal and not dangerous.
I do like Bluebirds videos also.
Thank Christ someone State-side has taken this on board to help dispel the methanol in fore-shots myth. I was as surprised as any when I found out and I can tell you I've been around this past time for over 30yr and believed the same, except I knew acetone was in fore-shorts as I've been using self built reflux column stills for most of that time, and did/do a lot of separation for neutral spirit.
I think this particular belief will take a long time to die out. Did you start doing anything different once you found out?
Yes. True.
Based on the comments, sounds like we need a video on individual boiling points vs boiling points in a mixture.
Not a bad idea, thanks.
The reason is because in wine and beer it's so diluted that it's not harmful but when you distil your taking it into a purer form so really as long as you mix your forshots with the rest of the batch it should be fine but you never know if you actually forgot to mix it all and you thought you grabbed a jar that has been mixed but you been drinking all day so you don't realize that you sold someone a jar of just forshots which basically then it's definitely dangerous..
I would agree with that. If you're collecting fore shots from separate runs into a single jar I would definitely label the jar well.
Amazing. 😮
Thanks! 😄
My understanding is that while (ethanol and water) and (methanol and water) were azeotropes, (methanol and ethanol) were not. It makes sense that depending on the mash there may be little to no methanol due to specific microbial needs. However, I would think that if there was an amount of methanol in a mash that could be distilled into a concentrated format that merited concern it would likely still be in the foreshots heads. Since it’s an Azeotrope methanol it’s not going to boil at 145, but since (methanol and ethanol) themselves aren’t in an Azeotropic relationship with each other each Azeotropic pair should have a different distillation point. (168 methanol) (177 ethanol). It also makes sense to me that a small percentage of methanol could bond to other constituents found in the tails and those bonds would be harder to break. But I’m a beginner trying to learn. Just seems a bit counterintuitive
In a low-alcohol solution, the rectification coefficient of methanol in relation to ethanol is less than 1. With a mash strength of 10%, it is approximately 0.7, and with a low wine strength of 30%, it is approximately 0.8. With a strength of an alcohol solution of about 50%, it becomes equal to 1, and with a strength of 80% - approximately 1.4. The boiling point of pure fractions is irrelevant. We work with complex mixtures.
Yeah, pectic enzyme is your friend with wines. It makes a better product and adds efficiency that can be carried over to your distillate. As for the methanol, this is a simple fractional distillation. Which means that each component of your starting booze comes over at a specific temperature. Methyl alcohol boils at 148.5f, and ethyl alcohol at 173.1. There's really nothing mysterious about it. I suspect that if that guy was finding methyl alcohol in the tails, it means that he wasn't controlling his temperature correctly, allowing the two alcohols to mix throughout the run. Hold it at 155-160. Anyway, I agree with the rest of the stuff you said 😀 Thanks for the video.
Agreed, low and slow!!
Boiling points are not the only factor. The fact that a water molecule gets bounded in the process prevents the methanol from boiling off at the rate at which pure methanol boils. It's well explained in many other sources.
Those temps are for a pure substance in a lab setting. It’s because methanol has a high affinity for water and it is difficult to separate them.
@@StillnTheClear conceded 👍
That is crazy!! I'm with you buddy I'll bet ive tossed out gallons of fore shotes over the years when makin a sugar wash . The methanol is in the tails? I always shut mine down after it gets down to 80 proof.. whwn making a sugar wash not an all grain wash , i take thst down even lower .i guess i need to quit that dont i lol .. thank you for letting us know because i was clueless to it. ..
The treatment for ethanol toxicity in E.R where I worked for decades was 'get'em drunk with ETOH' it seems the enzymatic pathway in the liver is the same thus any liver cells involved in the metabolism of ethanol molecules are protected from the uptake of methanol molecules, they're busy! Stills don't manufacute anything, they merely separate what is already there.
What is the danger of methanol percentage when doing cold? Anything to worry about when doing a, say a one litre batch?
WOW!!! I am so shocked by this information! And why would anyone add methanol back into their wash?? Asking for a friend
To improve profit
Holy crap! I’ve thrown out a good gallon or two just in the front side. Lol
Don't worry about it. There is still a bunch of other nasties in there.
I don't think there's pectin in mead. Mead is made up almost entirely of sugars, and waters with small particulates. It's mostly fructose almost equal amounts of glucose. It would have a pretty similar effect to making alcohol from pure sugar with added flavoring from the honey, which if all the sugar is fermented out of, would have very little taste at all.
The head also contains acetone. You can easily smell it. That stuff will kill you. As my friend says: "If you smell nail polish, put the lid back on and run away!"
Does Rum have acetone and not methanol????
I always thought heads were tossed in case the still was dirty?
I go top to bottom ,my whisky is gorgeous.😊
Head's 148° Heart's 173°. @ 60° n zero Sea Level. So say...... @ 200 ft. above S.L. the Heart's don't start until around 180° so it sits for :30 minutes at 165-68° letting the head's escape, every thing is balances with the heat and before it gets caped off to run. Now, until it feels like it should, smells better, and taste sweeter, too my approval, it is not saved. It's a different amount every time. 1/3 of a teaspoon is how I decided when to make the cuts. Watching it as close as I can, don't want a lose a drop, that I can spill later, ya know.
These temperatures completely change depending on what your starting abv is in the boiler. Can't run a pot still by temperature, only take off speed matters
Cyrus where do I find your Amazon link sir.
I have many Amazon links. Are you needing a specific one?
Good
Thanks
So should I still throw out my first little bit of a run or no?
And so really if I throw out first bit then shut down still when it drops to 30% coming out that would get rid of 80% of the methanol?....it's 6:20 am I been up babysitting my second grain mash all night , being a dumb ass I filled up my fermentation bucket too much so it started coming out the bubbler and blew lid off my bucket fun times 😝
I still throw off the first bit because it contains other nasty tasting stuff.
@@StillnTheClear sweet as 👍 , arfter running my first mash trough the the still I can see , smell and taste the different between sugar and grain mashes ,it's awesome I can actually smell dirt instead of just nasty
Thanks, so my homebrew was not posinous, I'm just weak against alcohol
I'm living proof
so does honey produce methanol?
straight methanol is what you worry about if you drink ethanol with it you won't get enough that the ethanol can't counteract it
the cure for methanol poisoning is ethanol it makes you metabolize both
Honey produces no methanol
What about wine from juice? Cant be much, as there's no solids.
Here's my guess! It is the pectin that produces methanol, so whatever pectin makes it to the juice will produce methanol. I think the use of pectic enzymes will help.
So am i safe if i make homemade wine
@@makemoney4585 yes.
I’m not sure why, if methanol content is being questioned, why not just test it for methanol?
I guess if you have the equipment needed to reliably test it.
@@StillnTheClear I could probably send it to you if you want. Pick out some reasonably priced stuff?
Try to keep it so a simple fellar like myself can use it though, if you don’t mind.
When you say sugar washes contain no pectin, and hence no methanol, does that include molasses washes as well?
Honestly, I'm not sure.
@@StillnTheClear okay, thanks. I have a friend helping me with my first run and I was thinking about doing a rum wash. Considering molasses is sugar based, I thought maybe the same applied there. He's been distilling for years though, so he'll probably do the cuts anyway out of habit. Thanks again.
You should analyze cane sugar. It had .02% pectin.
I will still discard first 2 oz per 5 gallon just think if the angels gets a cut then why not the demons they can have the first 2 oz or 4 depending on my taste maybe I won’t get in to trouble
Sounds like a good plan to me.
All I'm saying is that the foreshots are fine if you like fingernail polish remover. So I toss em. I have heard that the large distilleries don't toss them
Sooo…Does Honey Shine have Methanol?
Honey ferm/Mead produces zero methanol. However all fermentations produce varying levels of Aldehydes and other easy elements which mostly come off early in foreshots and late in tails. I run primarily honey shine and you'll always get condensing vapor off the still around 148F.
was your info correct sir. i'm a noob and asking fpr safety
Yes, it is correct.
well i gots to learn lol still afraid i must say but i will research for sure
Doesn’t this contradict the methanol 149 degree vaporization point?
No, because pure methanol turns to vapor at 149, but we aren't distilling pure methanol. It is in water.
keep researching... I have been trying to seperate methanol during my runs
I want methanol, if I can get it, to make a little biodiesel...
I have my still at 195. wash was about 12 percent.
the reflux is at 160. the condenser water is 65. I am getting nothing out.
If there is methanol in there, some should be fractionating out.
so it may well be they always run together.
there is no way the the methanol will go last.
if the water holds it that well, it will stay in the water.
foreshots are likely to have the little methanol in the wash.
please stick to common separation safety for now.
Throw out the first two three ounces call it your cleaning make sure you're still is clean
I still will take the first 250-400 ml off on my 9 gallon runs
I was thinking. How could the cowboys make alcohol without getting blind? Here I mean before I saw this video.
🤔
So go ahead and re run your heads in your next run, but forget about removing any foreshots?
The most surprising fact to me was that the treatment for methanol poisoning is…. Ethanol….
you got pretty thick glasses dude
🤣
Sugar yeast water that's what it boils down to I think that might be the recipe they done back in the day 2 to 3 ingredients fuck what's so complicated
Were you talking about George 😂
Popcorn ain't throw his shit out
The most methanol you can get is 3ml per litre. It's boiling point is 77 degrees Celsius.
No no no !
Methanol evaporates at 63degres celcius and ethanol at 78degres Celcius .
Just throw away all drops below 78, that's all
Bye.
And Acetone at 56 deg Celsius. Chuck it all.
Like I said u would have to drink like a gallon of the shit I've seen people in prison drink straight up rubbing alcohol didn't blind or die myths myths
Is prison as bad as they make it out in mainstream media?
Like what would happen to someone who was mixed race ,but presents as white , would they have to go hang out with the white supremacists ,and would the brown people beat you if you just wondered up to them and started to hang out . Like what if you didn't give a shit about race and really didn't want to get involved in anything crime or race related ,just do your time and get out ..... sorry for asking and being a pest ,I wouldn't survive prison , and am a little paranoid about getting locked up for something little like assault for defending a women and accidentally seriously hurting someone ,or because I don't have the right political views and are not shy about saying stuff like there's only two genders and a man can't be a women . sorry again just like to ask questions and learn from people rather than books or other media
wha?!? ...wait...isn't it true that most of the methanol comes off at 145-150 degrees (depending on your altitude)? I do rely on temperature initially. I can accept that it is present throughout the run but in crazy small amounts, Most of it was caught in the beginning. I was aware that sugar wash doesn't produce methanol (I was taught that it is insignificant but it is there) One thing f'sure...no one has ever complained of a hangover. Beer and wine... definitely hangovers, because of the methanol. I guess I'll just keep doing what I do, seems to work!
No, not true. People think that it comes off at 145-150 because the boiling point of PURE METHENOL is 145-150, but we aren't boiling pure Methenol, are we? A mash is a mixture of ethanol, Methanol and mostly water. The Methanol has a strong hydrogen bond to the water so it is present through the entire run.
@@orbitalbreaky Interesting. I can see that...and understand the hydrogen bond. I was taught that most come off first which is why we throw it away with the acetone etc... as I said, I think I'm ok with my process, although...why am I throwing away the first 250-500ml again?
Yes, you still want yo throw out the first of the run because of other nasties like acetone etc., but it's not concentrated Methanol like we've been taught to believe.
If you like what you're doing and it's working for you, then kepp on keeping on.
I'm not going to worry about foreshots anymore. I am going to treat foreshots like heads. I cut out a certain portion of heads anyways.
Heres another one they dont let you know the cure for methanol is ethanol
Methanol evaporates at 173 degrees F so how can there be methanol in tails nearing 200-203 degrees F? What about the acetate in foreshore and the other toxic chemicals that their saying is ok? He only thing is the pectin is true and the methanol amount is so nominal in hobby distillation. So throw away those foreshore decide on the heads.
The reason it doesn't evaporate at the same temp as pure methanol is because a water molecule is bounded to it. More energy is required to break the bound. This information is out there for you to research. I still won't be keeping foreshots, but not for the reason we've all been told.
.@@StillnTheClear Foreshot gets the woodstove started in morning or charcoal BBQ, fast and easy. Great for cleaning gunky auto parts also. Skull & Crossbones and Red Flame on jar makes it easy to spot.
So what do y'all think about this newly heard knowledge of methanol ? Is it is, or is it not, Bullshit or some what correct, a tad ????
Boiling Pt of Methanol = 148.3. Boiling Pt of Ethyl Alcohol = 173.1. Calculate your sea level. Distilled properly the methanol, if there is any, comes over first
that's not how distillation works
Ok as a chemist. Methenol boils at 148 ethenol at 173. The laws of Physics says methenol will boil first. Theirfore the foreshots will contain the most methonol. Can't get around that fact
Your explanation doesn't include the fact that methanol forms a strong azeotropic bond with water and therefore will not boil at 148 when mixed with water. This is technically explained by someone much smarter than me and formally schooled here : czcams.com/video/_4DOSEkpzeg/video.html Thank you for your comment.
as a chemist you should know that there isn't multiple boiling points in a mixture, there's one for each unit of time (and together forms a boiling range). And that you can't separate pure chemicals from each other using distillation if their boiling points (in pure form) aren't at least 100 degrees C apart. Since methanol, ethanol and water have a small delta in boiling points you're never gonna get 100% methanol when you reach 148 F, 100% ethanol when you reach 173 F and 100% water when you reach 212 F
@@danielanthony1054 nothing micro seives can't solve
@@prestonhanson501 good way to get 100% ethanol, but you first have to get yourself some 190 proof spirit from a column still
148.46 degrees f. Is the boiling point of methanol.... It's THE first vapors to leave the still. Soooo much misinformation , wow. Anyone that took chemistry in highschool should know this. Just take five seconds and google it for yourself if you doubt me. It's true that unless you have an extremely large still, like 1000 gallons or more, you don't have much actual methanol that is made, even with fruit, to worry about. But to tell everyone that watches your video that methanol would come out last is just wrong. Once your wart is warmed up past 180 degrees f. You have no possibility of having any methanol in your "tails" witch will be coming out after 200 degrees f. Good luck everyone, be safe, and do your own homework to keep safe while mastering your craft .
THE boiling point of pure methanol is not the only factor at play here. A Hydrogen bonding creates an Azeotrope that raises the effective boiling point of the bonded molecules that contain the methanol. This is also high school chemistry, not that I would know, I can't remember that far back. Lol.
I did a lot of research preparing for this video. You might consider researching something other than just the boiling point of pure methanol. There is much more to learn.
I do agree with your point that everyone should do their own research.
Thank you for your comment.
MrJackson66: By your reasoning, there shouldn't be any reason to collect product over 180 deg F since ethanol boils at 173. But mixtures behave quite differently. That's college level chemistry and physics though, not high school. Gas chromatography clearly shows methanol throughout a run.
Acetone, which you have in your wash already, breaks the hydrogen bond to the methanol... Man did anyone pay attention in school... And as I stated before, information is all available online, and only takes a minimal amount of searching and a bit of reading...
Wrong.
@@orbitalbreaky What reputable source do you suggest that shows actual distillate tested for methanol? My googling found me a study on fruit spirits and it certainly didn't claim what you say here.