My range in Texas hosts a lot of classes from guys like this. Fieldcraft Survival for example: They hardly ever shoot. They will stand around talking for 10 minutes, shoot one drill for 30 seconds, and talk for 10 more minutes. I feel bad for the folks getting scammed by those guys.
Don't feel too bad. These guys don't want to learn to shoot, they just want to say they learned how to be a tactical operator from a guy who's known as a tactical operator. It's persona chasing.
If people think they need a $500 class from a Green Beret to learn how to hit an A-zone at 25 yards, you could probably sell them anything. I could probably teach someone to do that with an airsoft pistol in their living room. Where's my $500?
@@daveandrews5998He built his YT channel, and possibly helped springboard his company, off of his first YT video where he talked about his concern for the country from his experience as a counter insurregency professional.
100% agree. I taught golf for 40 years. As time went on I learned that fewer words and simplicity works. Some people are disappointed when it’s made simple, though
It's simply because analytic types are rare, and they want/need details. Most folks benefit from simple ideas, said simply. I say this having taught & coached in soccer, lacrosse, alpine skiing, and academic tutoring, and having been a pretty fair golfer in my youth, whose friends sought him for golf swing improvement ideas.
If you’re going to be a firefighter, do you go to a scientist that can tell you how nomex works? Or do you go to a firefighting academy taught by guys that know how to suit up and enter a burning house? Yeah exactly…pistol training-go to a guy like Ben that KNOWS how to shoot. You don’t need a scientist to tell you how your eyes track
@@HWG-wm8ld Its a variation on a quote from Woodie Guthrie who was sort of quoting Albert Einstein. I take no credit for having created it, so feel free to use, share, distribute
Funny how similar principles apply to so many different fields. In motorcycle training, one of the basic principles is: "Turn your head and look where you want the motorcycle (and you) to go." So simple that it can be overlooked at the worst times...like when the motorcyclist runs off the road and looks at the telephone pole or other obstacle, instead of the open space to slow down and stop. Like you say: "Focus on the target...". You can analyze my ocular movements and body biomechanics until the cows come home and you still have to translate the results into actionable words, like: "Improve your grip and indexing, squeeze the trigger vs. jerking it, focus on the target, etc.".
"You go where your eyes look" is something that's basically universal when on a vehicle. Race car drivers will look at the apex of a corner as they turn in, and then the corner exit as they hit the apex. Alternatively, if you stare at a funny billboard while driving on the freeway, you'll tend to turn towards that direction (with potentially painful consequences).
Alpine skiing, in trees - people look at tree they do not want to hit, and wonder why they struggle in trees. "Look at spaces BETWEEN trees," I would tell them.
The way these bro shooter instructors get their money is by capitalizing off of unathletic people. All of the good shooters I know played sports growing up and we’re into fitness. I’ve noticed the tubby lumpkins and weekend warriors are the ones who go full scientist on describing how to shoot. Same can be applied to throwing a ball. “Just throw it” is a lot better than explaining the aerodynamics of the ball and how the material affects the grip in which your muscles apply and that the rotation of your wrist needs to be 45 degrees exactly for the ball to go 35 yards. Administrative results had a better explanation to this in which he described how athleticism transfers over to shooting. It doesn’t need to be complicated.
I used to be that guy. Mr Over Explainer. It took me having kids in my mid 20s and becoming a supervisor to realize that simple explanations are best. Let them nerd out on the why's later. Learn to do the action or activity now.
Speak on, as you speak truth. USPSA, IPSC and IDPA, have points of indirect athleticism, but none holds a candle to soccer, hockey, lacrosse for sustained athletic tasking. Lots of non athletes in shooting, from what I have seen in 3 yrs competing.
I think the problem is that guys like Travis, want to apply the same methods that top level athletes and trainers do when all they do is train for one thing. I think this “high tech thinking” is seductive, because in theory it sounds like it would drive better results. But in reality you end up with death by analysis and overthinking. I often see this thinking in combat sports and weightlifting as well, so I don’t think it’s unique to shooting. Intensity, consistency , simplicity are generally better training maxims
Non athletes always think woo and hokum are the path to success. Athletes know it's just focused practice and not expensive "experts" that make differences. Non athletes = it's the arrow not the injun.
@@seanoneil277 I agree 100%. It reminds me of the internet saying, that a guy with thousands in training and ammo and a PSA rifle is better off than the guy that spent the budget on the knights armament. You can’t really take advantage of the performance difference from one product to another until your proficiency level starts to get up there. There’s no magic pills or supplements, or tools that won’t make you a fat goober.
@@ryandahlgren8628 Well the guy who bought the rifle and trains with it will always be better, at rifle USE, than the dude with a swanky Hodge he merely owns and brags about. If cheap rifle guy is 30lbs+ overweight, mobility and stamina might limit his otherwise developed skills.
Children do not need science advisors when learning to walk... it is a very complex process if to be explained kinetically and physiologically, but this is not the learning route. Same with playing the piano, shooting, and most similar exercises involving the connection between our brain and the movement of our limbs.
Possibly the best thing about your class was learning how to teach tards like me. Showing the correct way via doing it the wrong way. Example: you had us stare at the front sight or dot and shoot doubles. WOW! My target was barely any different than when I I was target focused. You simply don't need all this mumbo jumbo. If students can't comprehend something difficult to articulate, have them do it the wrong way to show them their left and right extremes. F’n genius.
Been watching you for a few months now. Dont always agree with everything you say, but you fkn Rock. My shooting ability has gone from 0-75 mph and I credit it to trigger time but mostly dry firing. Keep it going.. Johnny in Tucson grew up shooting with Matt Burkett back in the day and got out for a long time
I’m sitting here chuckling to myself because i used to do this…. In school to make essays reach the required page count. Students shouldn’t need science text books or background to understand a shooting lesson or class
You are right about making things simple. I think it's important for an instructor in anything to understand why something works. That way they can figure out why something may not be working for someone and articulate what that person needs to do. There's too many people I've seen who can only teach what they did and they don't even understand why what they did worked for them and why it may not work for everyone. As for the "Ocular" stuff, there's some hold over from the desire to focus on the front sight. However, there is value in teaching someone how to quickly change focus depth and to track moving objects. There is value in looking at newer science based training methods. Quite eye may or may not be as useful in shooting as it in other sports, yet it isn't going to make you worse.
I went to a class once where the instructor shot more than we did, and then told war stories the rest of the time. Oddly enough, his classes are booked all year. I spend my $ on guys that actually make you better.
I think USPSA GM level national champions are unarguably the best action pistol shooters in the world. How many of them needed an ocular scientist to get there? Hell, I made it to A class with nothing more than some dryfire in my basement. This is all marketing BS nothing more.
So, I’ve been instructing for almost 3 years. After the first year, I was concerned I wasn’t using enough “fancy terms and lecture stuff”….. it was half way through the second year that I realized, leave the BS fancy talk to those who want to use it. I’m hear to help people shoot better, and to use the simple terms people universally understand. I’ve gotten more praise for going about it this way, etc… Sure, I’ll continue to learn and maybe drop some phrases and key terms in there from time to time, but I’m spending and hour to lecture with fancy terminology to flex on people…
Mongolian and Comanche cavalry were known and feared for their archery skills. Think about a galloping horse moving over uneven terrain and targets that moving - no complicated explanations or equipment, just the MK 1 Mod 0 targeting computer (the human brain) doing what it does…
It varies from student to student. Personally, I prefer tackling learning activities with a scientific approach-it's what I'm accustomed to. The more data points, the better, in my opinion. Essentially it appeals to the more nerdy crowd.
Shooting is simple and the concepts are really simple it’s just tough to do them correctly all the time. “Look at a spot and the gun goes there” “Pull the trigger quickly without disturbing the sights” “grip the gun so that the sights return predictably and consistently” it’s all pretty simple.
Yes! Thank you for this! It’s so true about not only shooting, but many things in life. It’s like we have these “gatekeepers” that seem like they’re purposely trying to overcomplicate something that could be explained and shown in much simpler terms and by I just driving home the point that there are no secret codes. Just find a good instructor, do your dry fire, buy ammo and practice. If you pay attention to the fundamentals of shooting and just the basic mechanics, if the shots aren’t going where you want, you will get your own feedback on how to fix it. “Ocular scientists”…..pfft!
Travis can actually shoot. But what he's doing here is running a business. He's cornering the market on the customers that are attracted to this kind of thing.
Haley’s video aside, do you feel that theres value in this sort of scientific analysis of shooting outside of an instructional context? Eg., we know we are SUPPOSED to pick a small spot on the target and focus in on it, but in practice and/or under stress people struggle with that. So being able to analyze people’s natural tendencies when shooting using eye tracking or something could maybe give us insight into how to maintain good technique? In the same way that we sometimes “feel” like we’re going fast or slow, but a shot timer tells us what we’re actually doing. Obviously this doesn’t mean students need a lecture about eye physiology, but I wonder if it could inform the cues or strategies that instructors give.
It’s kind of a vicious circle. If you end up taking his class for $950+ you’re gonna wanna defend your investment (and I guess ego) even more so if this was the one class you could afford to take. So then you become a fanboy if you can’t settle with your buyers remorse. Or maybe you indeed had a great time idk.
I can attest to this regarding ocular stuff. I am not saying this for any other reason than it has worked for me. A few years back I had an eye injury that required an ocular lens replacement. A couple years ago I had a stroke that left me with 20-600 vision. I basically see blurs with halo’s out of my “good” eye prior. With irons I have to shoot my new left eye dominant. With a rds My vision allows me to utilize the occluded eye way. Under NVGs(31’s or Pano’s etc) I almost see normal prior to my issue. My point, I have followed your training and was able to understand it at a level required sooner do my issue forcing me to seek a result I wanted as compared to arrogance keeping me from benefiting. So in a way, my injury helped me as a stubborn A type man. Regardless, I have been to numerous eye dr’s and none have been able to figure out my issue. While I am an outlier for this issue, I pass on to agree with your opinion of to much science. K.I.S.S. And work harder. Only results matter.
The only way I can see them actually having their “ocular scientists” on staff is if they are getting paid another way for them. Maybe some sort of govt grant or program that is actually paying for it, or helping with it.
I diagree and agree with his methods in that some people may find the simple explanations to make sense quicker, but an over analytical approach may appeal to others that cant figure things out when things are put simply. I think having more options to instruction is an overall good because appealing to many different people can get more people interested in getting trained.
I'm pragmatic about it all, I've carried Haley products for over a decade, and I also use your products. Everything will have a positive and negative. Get both.
Unfortunately, at one time the government agency I was in tried this for a while. They over complicated things and wasted tons of money, imagine that, the government wasting money. After some years they finally went back to simplicity on the recommendation of a lot of us old guys and boy was there a huge jump in qualification scores.
I like my training method the most and if you don’t do stuff the way I like your a problem. Personally affirm this by people regurgitating what I say. This usually applies to the people that read this and think of someone else.
I haven’t been shooting seriously for very long, but picked up “Practical Pistol” at the suggestion of a friend. I’m not really worried about competitive shooting at this point and wonder if you have a suggestion for a book that is more about fundamentals and basic concepts. I really appreciate your no nonsense approach. Thanks!
You ever thought about taking him up on his offer visiting his place of work and see what they are trying to do? Haley Strategic does a lot more than only training from what I've heard. Keep up the good work. Thanks for sharing
All professional athletes/organizations use science to improve or use techniques that science has proven to be helpful. With the right teacher i could see it being a benefit. Most teachers and people it's probably a waste.
I guess all that analyzing depht is necessary at a certain point to bring performance and knowledge to the next level, as in elite sports. The question however arises, what to do with all that information (and how much of it is actually useful). The most important thing is probably what are the lessons learned, and how to turn that into effective shooting technique, methods and teaching strategies. Like a pro Moto GP rider likely has a good understanding on how to set up his suspension, his riding skills probably won't improve that much if he is forced to take courses on becoming an engineer capable of calculating and designing a suspension setup from scratch.
I think everything you said is correct but that it's worth addressing that there is nothing wrong with investing in advanced equipment or research. However, if you are going to prop yourself above your competition because of it, you better be able to articulate specifically how it improves training, be able to demonstrate it, and the best shooters should all be showing up to take your classes. I'm not the expert, but I've seen plenty of content and don't feel he's really addressed any of those things to make me buy in. He's a handsome guy with a longstanding reputation in the industry. Speaks gobbledegook from authority and people who are new or don't know better love that stuff, so I could see how we ended up here. It's also good for the shooting community for you to point this out. Maybe it will inspire him to use all that fancy stuff to show us some content on what the rest of us are missing out on. Keep it up 👍
@@seanoneil277 I'm not saying anyone should go train there. I'm saying if you want to invest then boast about your tech, cool, but prove it's worth a shit, which I don't think he has.
These guys have to make their product stand out somehow in this over saturated market. Travis achieves that with his pseudoscientific lexicon and theory. The unlearned hear high minded science, the rest of us hear it for word salad that it is. Fact is, there’s nothing new under the sun in shooting for the most part; and folks just want to give their money to competent teachers who can flesh this stuff out like you do. No hate for Travis Haley, it’s just refreshing to hear someone else bringing this up.
I think the biggest issue is most shooters and trainers don’t treat shooting as an athletic event. If they were athletes or understood how athletes train a lot of the overly complicated and complex approaches would have no market. What are the fundamentals/first principles? What are the basics driven by the fundamentals? How do I train to execute the basics at a high level? The answers should be as simple as possible to explain and understand. Figure out what behavior you want to see from the student athlete, design games with constraints and with clearly defined tasks that guide the student athlete learn as quickly as possible to the answers.
Around 7:23 you hit the nail on the head with "I don't believe..." That's just it. It isn't some legit "method" he's selling, it's just plain old bullshit. I once heard someone say that the "T" in P.T. Barnum stood for "Tactical".
Unfortunately i cant participate to Ben Stoegers classes because im in Greece. Ben please if you see this can you suggest an exercise program for 100 rounds per range training?
Ocular tracking and slo-mo video sound like good tools to answer the question: What are you really doing?, and kinesiologists and "ocular scientists" might have some insight into what you should be doing. A good instructor can see what you're doing and tell you, and she can tell you what you oughta do, too. I'm mostly disappointed that "myelination" came up zero times in that clip. Just myelinate your pathways, man!
Travis thinks like a scientist - he's overtly analytical, he wants to know the "how" and "why" of everything that's happening. And I understand that, because my brain works the same way. Unfortunately, I find Travis very hard to listen to and learn from most of the time, because he doesn't know how to get out of his own head and simplify it (just as he was talking about in this clip), and make it tolerable and tangible for the end user. Baseball is experiencing the same issue with things like "spin rate" right now. As a hitter, can you tell me what the spin rate of the ball is, in the box, in real time coming at you out of the pitcher's hand? No, you can't. You're eyes and brain aren't capable of calculating that, it's simply tracking movement, and anticipating. As a pitcher can you tell me the spin rate of the ball coming off your finger? No, you can't. Our fingers have amazing dexterity, but it can't calculate that. If that information isn't available to you in real time in the moment, it's overloaded, unnecessary information. It cant help you, so it doesn't matter.
people also don't understand athletics. i know myself and i know it will be impossible for me to be a top level shooter. Just like it doesn't matter how much practice and money there is in the world i could never be the same level as lebron james. I understand this and i am completely fine with being a c class shooter. yes if a shot every weekend i could make it to be a b class shooter but thats my life. just like these people who think they can become a gm by shooting 5000 rounds is not possible everyone. people need to have realistic goals and waisting money and time will not make you a top level shooter for most people. but who am i to say what people should do
There isn’t much contrast. The difference is we can suffer through days, weeks, months of misery, lack of sleep and food, dealing with different climates, our shot timer is someone shooting at us…etc.
"Occular tracking". Heh. People who talk like that should be shamed, unless they're literally doing it as a joke. That just means "looking at stuff". I have not words for how much I hate people doing that sort of crap.
@j.bar3.077 I took my first "real" class in 2016 from Haley and I distinctly remember him saying he was a GM......he had a story about it and everything.......what am I missing?
@j.bar3.077 can he though, and who are you comparing him to? I see next to nothing from Haleys content of him demoing in classes or his own training. Compare that to Ben who is putting out tons of content, showing him demoing in a spectrum all the way from examples of the wrong way to how to do it at a superhuman level and he’s doing that on demand in front of a class. Plus the guys constantly posting portions of his own training. I’ve taken multiple classes from both, there’s no comparing these two.
That’s what happens when Branding and Marketing clowns enter any space. They want to make things seem uber complex so they can elevate themselves onto this pedestal and convince you that the only way to make it is if you listen to them or buy their specific flavor of garbage.
It'd be one thing if the buzzword scientists actually said "here is 'x'...you may think it works like this, but it actually works like that. When you make this change based on 'that' information, we can demonstrate your accuracy and speed will improve.". But they don't. And why doesn't Travis brag about having myology scientists on hand? Because ocular sounds cooler and more people can infer what 'ocular' refers to, so it markets better. But I think having myologists would make more sense since it would cover not just muscles in the eyes, but all muscles in the human body, which would have to turn your shooting instruction up to '11', right? "You need to understand how your mitochondria are functioning in your muscles if you are going to shoot better!". The worrisome thing is that I think Travis is sincere, i.e. I think he is drinking his own kool aid.
At a Haley class he said (not verbatim) "I like to test people, so I trust them until they fail me, and they get only one chance." While watching one of his vids after the class he stated (and showed on a .ppt) that CA was a duty to retreat state and/or didn't have Castle Doctrine. In that same video he claimed the crime rate in the area of Scottsdale he's in was excessively high and getting worse. Wrong. CA has some if not the most supportive home defense laws in the nation because there is case law going back to the mid 1800's and use of a firearm in a home defense situation is presumptive. As to the Scottsdale crime rate, a quick check of their stats proved his claim woefully incorrect. Interestingly that vid (and many others like it) have since been deleted. But it was then I realized this guy is just selling snake oil. So Travis, I think second chances are generally good. But for you I'll take your advice and make an exception.
He's got 3 dudes with glasses sitting in an office. That's his "ocular scientists"
Ocular Platforms
Stance, Grip, trigger pull, sight alignment & target focus. The fundamentals don't change
Same for a selfie?
Vision fuckus > ocular tracking
Clarity is kindness. Simple is better.
My range in Texas hosts a lot of classes from guys like this.
Fieldcraft Survival for example: They hardly ever shoot. They will stand around talking for 10 minutes, shoot one drill for 30 seconds, and talk for 10 more minutes. I feel bad for the folks getting scammed by those guys.
more talking means they're not shooters???😉
Glover at Fieldcraft is perhaps the biggest scammer in the industry. He will say or do anything to get attention and line his pockets.
Don't feel too bad. These guys don't want to learn to shoot, they just want to say they learned how to be a tactical operator from a guy who's known as a tactical operator. It's persona chasing.
If people think they need a $500 class from a Green Beret to learn how to hit an A-zone at 25 yards, you could probably sell them anything. I could probably teach someone to do that with an airsoft pistol in their living room. Where's my $500?
@@daveandrews5998He built his YT channel, and possibly helped springboard his company, off of his first YT video where he talked about his concern for the country from his experience as a counter insurregency professional.
100% agree. I taught golf for 40 years. As time went on I learned that fewer words and simplicity works. Some people are disappointed when it’s made simple, though
It's simply because analytic types are rare, and they want/need details. Most folks benefit from simple ideas, said simply.
I say this having taught & coached in soccer, lacrosse, alpine skiing, and academic tutoring, and having been a pretty fair golfer in my youth, whose friends sought him for golf swing improvement ideas.
Ivan Drago training vs Balboa training in Rocky IV.
Drago would have beat his ass either way. Stallone has always been for gun control ps
😆
Lmao nailed it
If you’re going to be a firefighter, do you go to a scientist that can tell you how nomex works? Or do you go to a firefighting academy taught by guys that know how to suit up and enter a burning house? Yeah exactly…pistol training-go to a guy like Ben that KNOWS how to shoot. You don’t need a scientist to tell you how your eyes track
If you had an ocular scientist ,nutritionist and a occupational therapist at your disposal you could probably get your GM card in a month .
You sure it's not 7-10 days? Month sounds slow.
You can get your GM card faster if you go see Tony Cowden.
The more you have to explain, the less comprehensive your teaching methods become.
"Any idiot can make things complicated. It takes a genius to make complicated things simple."
Apparently, you are a genius.
I’m using this.
@@HWG-wm8ld Its a variation on a quote from Woodie Guthrie who was sort of quoting Albert Einstein. I take no credit for having created it, so feel free to use, share, distribute
@@JasonMKrumbeinEsq Einstein said:
“In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.”
Which applies here as well
Funny how similar principles apply to so many different fields. In motorcycle training, one of the basic principles is: "Turn your head and look where you want the motorcycle (and you) to go." So simple that it can be overlooked at the worst times...like when the motorcyclist runs off the road and looks at the telephone pole or other obstacle, instead of the open space to slow down and stop. Like you say: "Focus on the target...".
You can analyze my ocular movements and body biomechanics until the cows come home and you still have to translate the results into actionable words, like: "Improve your grip and indexing, squeeze the trigger vs. jerking it, focus on the target, etc.".
"You go where your eyes look" is something that's basically universal when on a vehicle. Race car drivers will look at the apex of a corner as they turn in, and then the corner exit as they hit the apex. Alternatively, if you stare at a funny billboard while driving on the freeway, you'll tend to turn towards that direction (with potentially painful consequences).
Alpine skiing, in trees - people look at tree they do not want to hit, and wonder why they struggle in trees. "Look at spaces BETWEEN trees," I would tell them.
I thought it was a ad at the beginning and was waiting too push the skip button 😂
The way these bro shooter instructors get their money is by capitalizing off of unathletic people. All of the good shooters I know played sports growing up and we’re into fitness. I’ve noticed the tubby lumpkins and weekend warriors are the ones who go full scientist on describing how to shoot. Same can be applied to throwing a ball. “Just throw it” is a lot better than explaining the aerodynamics of the ball and how the material affects the grip in which your muscles apply and that the rotation of your wrist needs to be 45 degrees exactly for the ball to go 35 yards. Administrative results had a better explanation to this in which he described how athleticism transfers over to shooting. It doesn’t need to be complicated.
I used to be that guy. Mr Over Explainer. It took me having kids in my mid 20s and becoming a supervisor to realize that simple explanations are best. Let them nerd out on the why's later. Learn to do the action or activity now.
Nice try, tell that to Rod Leatham and Taran Butler
Rob
Speak on, as you speak truth.
USPSA, IPSC and IDPA, have points of indirect athleticism, but none holds a candle to soccer, hockey, lacrosse for sustained athletic tasking. Lots of non athletes in shooting, from what I have seen in 3 yrs competing.
@@user-ed5jh3ff6uMake a relevant point, neither of those guys would come near me in senior soccer, lacrosse or hockey.
I think the problem is that guys like Travis, want to apply the same methods that top level athletes and trainers do when all they do is train for one thing.
I think this “high tech thinking” is seductive, because in theory it sounds like it would drive better results.
But in reality you end up with death by analysis and overthinking. I often see this thinking in combat sports and weightlifting as well, so I don’t think it’s unique to shooting.
Intensity, consistency , simplicity are generally better training maxims
The lifting and nutrition spaces are ripe with this crap!
Non athletes always think woo and hokum are the path to success. Athletes know it's just focused practice and not expensive "experts" that make differences. Non athletes = it's the arrow not the injun.
@@seanoneil277 I agree 100%.
It reminds me of the internet saying, that a guy with thousands in training and ammo and a PSA rifle is better off than the guy that spent the budget on the knights armament.
You can’t really take advantage of the performance difference from one product to another until your proficiency level starts to get up there.
There’s no magic pills or supplements, or tools that won’t make you a fat goober.
@@ryandahlgren8628 Well the guy who bought the rifle and trains with it will always be better, at rifle USE, than the dude with a swanky Hodge he merely owns and brags about.
If cheap rifle guy is 30lbs+ overweight, mobility and stamina might limit his otherwise developed skills.
Albert Einstein said that if you can't explain it to a six year old, then you don't understand it yourself!!
No reason to use big words! Lol.
Alzie should have talked plagiarism instead, as he knew that topic very well.
Please do more of this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ageeed
Brilliant words Ben!
You are fixing to light the Internet on 🔥 Fire!
Aloha from Hawaii's 2A community 🤙🏽
Children do not need science advisors when learning to walk... it is a very complex process if to be explained kinetically and physiologically, but this is not the learning route. Same with playing the piano, shooting, and most similar exercises involving the connection between our brain and the movement of our limbs.
Possibly the best thing about your class was learning how to teach tards like me. Showing the correct way via doing it the wrong way. Example: you had us stare at the front sight or dot and shoot doubles. WOW! My target was barely any different than when I I was target focused. You simply don't need all this mumbo jumbo. If students can't comprehend something difficult to articulate, have them do it the wrong way to show them their left and right extremes. F’n genius.
Been watching you for a few months now. Dont always agree with everything you say, but you fkn Rock. My shooting ability has gone from 0-75 mph and I credit it to trigger time but mostly dry firing. Keep it going.. Johnny in Tucson grew up shooting with Matt Burkett back in the day and got out for a long time
Timothy Gallwey in his classic book ""The Inner Game of Tennis'" shows why overthinking leads one astray.
If you say "occular tracking" instead of just saying "looking", I don't give 2 shits about what you have to say, nor should anyone else
Foundationally F'd up. Classic.
All the best things are simple.
Guess you’ve never seen the inside of an automatic watch.
I’m sitting here chuckling to myself because i used to do this…. In school to make essays reach the required page count. Students shouldn’t need science text books or background to understand a shooting lesson or class
Did the same for the 300 word essays in OCS at Quantico
@@HWG-wm8ld This United States Marine Corps officer candidate currently assigned to training at Quantico Virginia....
You are right about making things simple. I think it's important for an instructor in anything to understand why something works. That way they can figure out why something may not be working for someone and articulate what that person needs to do. There's too many people I've seen who can only teach what they did and they don't even understand why what they did worked for them and why it may not work for everyone. As for the "Ocular" stuff, there's some hold over from the desire to focus on the front sight. However, there is value in teaching someone how to quickly change focus depth and to track moving objects. There is value in looking at newer science based training methods. Quite eye may or may not be as useful in shooting as it in other sports, yet it isn't going to make you worse.
I went to a class once where the instructor shot more than we did, and then told war stories the rest of the time. Oddly enough, his classes are booked all year. I spend my $ on guys that actually make you better.
Post his name so others don’t waste their money
I think USPSA GM level national champions are unarguably the best action pistol shooters in the world. How many of them needed an ocular scientist to get there? Hell, I made it to A class with nothing more than some dryfire in my basement. This is all marketing BS nothing more.
When he said ocular scientists, I had to stop…non of us got to where we are because of ocular scientists.
I agree with you. Many people are making money trying to reinvent the wheel.
We, at Gallantry Dynamics, Fully Agree With You Ben. Simple and Practical Applications of Successful Concepts is the Way. Simple Terms = Comprehension
Ocular pat downs are a highly advanced technique. I learned this one sunny day in Philadelphia
Over-sciencing is just another quest for a magic bullet.
Thank you for showing the video you are talking about, a lot of time the video has been deleted.
So, I’ve been instructing for almost 3 years. After the first year, I was concerned I wasn’t using enough “fancy terms and lecture stuff”….. it was half way through the second year that I realized, leave the BS fancy talk to those who want to use it. I’m hear to help people shoot better, and to use the simple terms people universally understand. I’ve gotten more praise for going about it this way, etc… Sure, I’ll continue to learn and maybe drop some phrases and key terms in there from time to time, but I’m spending and hour to lecture with fancy terminology to flex on people…
Mongolian and Comanche cavalry were known and feared for their archery skills. Think about a galloping horse moving over uneven terrain and targets that moving - no complicated explanations or equipment, just the MK 1 Mod 0 targeting computer (the human brain) doing what it does…
Original bs stories
“Original bs” is an oxymoron.
It varies from student to student. Personally, I prefer tackling learning activities with a scientific approach-it's what I'm accustomed to. The more data points, the better, in my opinion. Essentially it appeals to the more nerdy crowd.
Excellent !
Shooting is simple and the concepts are really simple it’s just tough to do them correctly all the time. “Look at a spot and the gun goes there” “Pull the trigger quickly without disturbing the sights” “grip the gun so that the sights return predictably and consistently” it’s all pretty simple.
Yes! Thank you for this! It’s so true about not only shooting, but many things in life. It’s like we have these “gatekeepers” that seem like they’re purposely trying to overcomplicate something that could be explained and shown in much simpler terms and by I just driving home the point that there are no secret codes. Just find a good instructor, do your dry fire, buy ammo and practice. If you pay attention to the fundamentals of shooting and just the basic mechanics, if the shots aren’t going where you want, you will get your own feedback on how to fix it. “Ocular scientists”…..pfft!
Travis can actually shoot. But what he's doing here is running a business. He's cornering the market on the customers that are attracted to this kind of thing.
Exactly 👍
Ben, the instructor of the working class 😂
Used to work at Scottsdale gun club can confirm felt more like a butler than a gun salesman.
They think they’re worth more money because they have more buzz words? Will that method reach everyone?
Haley’s video aside, do you feel that theres value in this sort of scientific analysis of shooting outside of an instructional context? Eg., we know we are SUPPOSED to pick a small spot on the target and focus in on it, but in practice and/or under stress people struggle with that. So being able to analyze people’s natural tendencies when shooting using eye tracking or something could maybe give us insight into how to maintain good technique? In the same way that we sometimes “feel” like we’re going fast or slow, but a shot timer tells us what we’re actually doing.
Obviously this doesn’t mean students need a lecture about eye physiology, but I wonder if it could inform the cues or strategies that instructors give.
It’s kind of a vicious circle. If you end up taking his class for $950+ you’re gonna wanna defend your investment (and I guess ego) even more so if this was the one class you could afford to take. So then you become a fanboy if you can’t settle with your buyers remorse. Or maybe you indeed had a great time idk.
I can attest to this regarding ocular stuff. I am not saying this for any other reason than it has worked for me.
A few years back I had an eye injury that required an ocular lens replacement. A couple years ago I had a stroke that left me with 20-600 vision. I basically see blurs with halo’s out of my “good” eye prior.
With irons I have to shoot my new left eye dominant. With a rds My vision allows me to utilize the occluded eye way. Under NVGs(31’s or Pano’s etc) I almost see normal prior to my issue.
My point, I have followed your training and was able to understand it at a level required sooner do my issue forcing me to seek a result I wanted as compared to arrogance keeping me from benefiting. So in a way, my injury helped me as a stubborn A type man.
Regardless, I have been to numerous eye dr’s and none have been able to figure out my issue. While I am an outlier for this issue, I pass on to agree with your opinion of to much science. K.I.S.S. And work harder. Only results matter.
The only way I can see them actually having their “ocular scientists” on staff is if they are getting paid another way for them. Maybe some sort of govt grant or program that is actually paying for it, or helping with it.
I diagree and agree with his methods in that some people may find the simple explanations to make sense quicker, but an over analytical approach may appeal to others that cant figure things out when things are put simply. I think having more options to instruction is an overall good because appealing to many different people can get more people interested in getting trained.
But overcomplicating things to simply just make yourself seem smarter/better is obviously a waste of everyones time.
I'm pragmatic about it all, I've carried Haley products for over a decade, and I also use your products. Everything will have a positive and negative. Get both.
Thanks
Travis Haley has some weird fascination with sounding smart.
Unfortunately, at one time the government agency I was in tried this for a while. They over complicated things and wasted tons of money, imagine that, the government wasting money. After some years they finally went back to simplicity on the recommendation of a lot of us old guys and boy was there a huge jump in qualification scores.
The DMV?
@@HWG-wm8ld another oxygen waster online, welcome
I like my training method the most and if you don’t do stuff the way I like your a problem. Personally affirm this by people regurgitating what I say. This usually applies to the people that read this and think of someone else.
I want to be a fly on the wall while Haley and co are brainstorming how to market their business.
The word grift will probably come up a lot in those discussions.
@@felixdewinter3484 “Synthesizing a tactical currency centric transfer” -Travis Haley probably
@@felixdewinter3484 “Executing a tactical transference of currency via neuromuscular fluctuation of mandible” - Travis Haley probably
Kinda reminds me of Rocky 4. 😄
I haven’t been shooting seriously for very long, but picked up “Practical Pistol” at the suggestion of a friend. I’m not really worried about competitive shooting at this point and wonder if you have a suggestion for a book that is more about fundamentals and basic concepts. I really appreciate your no nonsense approach. Thanks!
Ernie Langdon
I had same problem. Gabby Franco's book is good for beginners. (You wont appreciate Practical Pistol fully until u begin shooting USPSA).
Vernacular tech talk has been the new $$ cow for instructors for about 10 years now. I think its ridiculous but most seem to fall for it.
You ever thought about taking him up on his offer visiting his place of work and see what they are trying to do? Haley Strategic does a lot more than only training from what I've heard. Keep up the good work. Thanks for sharing
you should contact travis and ask him to speak to the ocular scientists for....learning purposes.
If you can't dazzle them with diamonds baffle them with bullshit
The bigger the words, the more you can charge. Voila!
From Travis himself in the WPS podcast: “My director of training is a reproductive sports physiologist.”
What?
All professional athletes/organizations use science to improve or use techniques that science has proven to be helpful. With the right teacher i could see it being a benefit. Most teachers and people it's probably a waste.
So you assume.
Their "science" really is not science, but they fool people easily thanks to most Americans having lousy science education.
The conscience mind can only focus on one thing at a time. Pick vision. Trust your sub conscience mind to do the rest.
I guess all that analyzing depht is necessary at a certain point to bring performance and knowledge to the next level, as in elite sports. The question however arises, what to do with all that information (and how much of it is actually useful). The most important thing is probably what are the lessons learned, and how to turn that into effective shooting technique, methods and teaching strategies. Like a pro Moto GP rider likely has a good understanding on how to set up his suspension, his riding skills probably won't improve that much if he is forced to take courses on becoming an engineer capable of calculating and designing a suspension setup from scratch.
It’s more important that the rider can give feedback to the suspension guys, not just say “the suspension sucks”
I think everything you said is correct but that it's worth addressing that there is nothing wrong with investing in advanced equipment or research. However, if you are going to prop yourself above your competition because of it, you better be able to articulate specifically how it improves training, be able to demonstrate it, and the best shooters should all be showing up to take your classes. I'm not the expert, but I've seen plenty of content and don't feel he's really addressed any of those things to make me buy in. He's a handsome guy with a longstanding reputation in the industry. Speaks gobbledegook from authority and people who are new or don't know better love that stuff, so I could see how we ended up here.
It's also good for the shooting community for you to point this out. Maybe it will inspire him to use all that fancy stuff to show us some content on what the rest of us are missing out on.
Keep it up 👍
"Nothing wrong with" taking yourself backward?
@@seanoneil277 I'm not saying anyone should go train there. I'm saying if you want to invest then boast about your tech, cool, but prove it's worth a shit, which I don't think he has.
Gotcha.
All these excuses some people have for the simple solution of "Stick to one thing and get good with it."
These guys have to make their product stand out somehow in this over saturated market. Travis achieves that with his pseudoscientific lexicon and theory. The unlearned hear high minded science, the rest of us hear it for word salad that it is. Fact is, there’s nothing new under the sun in shooting for the most part; and folks just want to give their money to competent teachers who can flesh this stuff out like you do. No hate for Travis Haley, it’s just refreshing to hear someone else bringing this up.
It would work in Scottsdale.
I think the biggest issue is most shooters and trainers don’t treat shooting as an athletic event. If they were athletes or understood how athletes train a lot of the overly complicated and complex approaches would have no market. What are the fundamentals/first principles? What are the basics driven by the fundamentals? How do I train to execute the basics at a high level? The answers should be as simple as possible to explain and understand. Figure out what behavior you want to see from the student athlete, design games with constraints and with clearly defined tasks that guide the student athlete learn as quickly as possible to the answers.
You sound like Travis
@@HWG-wm8ld actually the opposite. Read any of Rob Grays books.
Books are for nerds
Around 7:23 you hit the nail on the head with "I don't believe..." That's just it. It isn't some legit "method" he's selling, it's just plain old bullshit.
I once heard someone say that the "T" in P.T. Barnum stood for "Tactical".
He didn’t need ask that when fighting overseas. Why do we?
If you’re shooting 10 minutes into a class, you’re probably going to pay more attention to the classroom speeches.
Unfortunately i cant participate to Ben Stoegers classes because im in Greece. Ben please if you see this can you suggest an exercise program for 100 rounds per range training?
Check his website, he has books.
You should spend hours doing dry practice even if you could do 1000 rds per session.
Completely agree with this take. 3 ocular scientists...WTF is that? I've only read Stoeger's books, and they're great because they're simple.
“On staff” the ocular scientists probably aren’t full time.
Or on-site often
Amen
I think many firearms instructors get paid by the syllable.
Drinking Dr Pepper…..I’m with Haley
Ocular tracking and slo-mo video sound like good tools to answer the question: What are you really doing?, and kinesiologists and "ocular scientists" might have some insight into what you should be doing. A good instructor can see what you're doing and tell you, and she can tell you what you oughta do, too.
I'm mostly disappointed that "myelination" came up zero times in that clip. Just myelinate your pathways, man!
Travis thinks like a scientist - he's overtly analytical, he wants to know the "how" and "why" of everything that's happening.
And I understand that, because my brain works the same way.
Unfortunately, I find Travis very hard to listen to and learn from most of the time, because he doesn't know how to get out of his own head and simplify it (just as he was talking about in this clip), and make it tolerable and tangible for the end user.
Baseball is experiencing the same issue with things like "spin rate" right now. As a hitter, can you tell me what the spin rate of the ball is, in the box, in real time coming at you out of the pitcher's hand? No, you can't. You're eyes and brain aren't capable of calculating that, it's simply tracking movement, and anticipating.
As a pitcher can you tell me the spin rate of the ball coming off your finger? No, you can't. Our fingers have amazing dexterity, but it can't calculate that. If that information isn't available to you in real time in the moment, it's overloaded, unnecessary information. It cant help you, so it doesn't matter.
Keep speaking the truth good sir. What a breath of fresh air in a world full of shit
people also don't understand athletics. i know myself and i know it will be impossible for me to be a top level shooter. Just like it doesn't matter how much practice and money there is in the world i could never be the same level as lebron james. I understand this and i am completely fine with being a c class shooter. yes if a shot every weekend i could make it to be a b class shooter but thats my life. just like these people who think they can become a gm by shooting 5000 rounds is not possible everyone. people need to have realistic goals and waisting money and time will not make you a top level shooter for most people. but who am i to say what people should do
Trying to turn shooting into golf
Maybe it’s the contrast between competition shooting vs. self-defense/combat shooting?? Definitely a different mindset no?
This is all fundamentals training, the fundamentals are fundamentals there's no difference in application.
The mindset of being fast and accurate?
There isn’t much contrast. The difference is we can suffer through days, weeks, months of misery, lack of sleep and food, dealing with different climates, our shot timer is someone shooting at us…etc.
"Occular tracking". Heh. People who talk like that should be shamed, unless they're literally doing it as a joke. That just means "looking at stuff".
I have not words for how much I hate people doing that sort of crap.
Is Haley a GM ?
No, these guys rarely participate in anything competitive in nature.
@j.bar3.077 I took my first "real" class in 2016 from Haley and I distinctly remember him saying he was a GM......he had a story about it and everything.......what am I missing?
@j.bar3.077 can he though, and who are you comparing him to? I see next to nothing from Haleys content of him demoing in classes or his own training. Compare that to Ben who is putting out tons of content, showing him demoing in a spectrum all the way from examples of the wrong way to how to do it at a superhuman level and he’s doing that on demand in front of a class. Plus the guys constantly posting portions of his own training. I’ve taken multiple classes from both, there’s no comparing these two.
You have a crush on Ben
He was a GM. Competed in Hawaii
Dudes that have never finished in the top half of the results in a match taking classes with "ocular scientists"...
That’s what happens when Branding and Marketing clowns enter any space. They want to make things seem uber complex so they can elevate themselves onto this pedestal and convince you that the only way to make it is if you listen to them or buy their specific flavor of garbage.
I guess you can look at it like other sports. The higher you advance the more science is used.
You guys remember him as the magpul guy. I remember him as the guy who got on CZcams who said to shoot with your eyes closed.
I remember him as the guy smoking hajj from rooftops
@opm9304 ^^^^ This
Where you the guy filming?
Have we determined if shooting skills are sexually transmitted like medical knowledge? Because I'm not sure if I'm that committed to making GM
Yeah but Haley zeros his emotion when he wakes up 😁
It'd be one thing if the buzzword scientists actually said "here is 'x'...you may think it works like this, but it actually works like that. When you make this change based on 'that' information, we can demonstrate your accuracy and speed will improve.". But they don't. And why doesn't Travis brag about having myology scientists on hand? Because ocular sounds cooler and more people can infer what 'ocular' refers to, so it markets better. But I think having myologists would make more sense since it would cover not just muscles in the eyes, but all muscles in the human body, which would have to turn your shooting instruction up to '11', right? "You need to understand how your mitochondria are functioning in your muscles if you are going to shoot better!". The worrisome thing is that I think Travis is sincere, i.e. I think he is drinking his own kool aid.
People sell complexity.
Lol, Scottsdale people
At a Haley class he said (not verbatim) "I like to test people, so I trust them until they fail me, and they get only one chance." While watching one of his vids after the class he stated (and showed on a .ppt) that CA was a duty to retreat state and/or didn't have Castle Doctrine. In that same video he claimed the crime rate in the area of Scottsdale he's in was excessively high and getting worse.
Wrong. CA has some if not the most supportive home defense laws in the nation because there is case law going back to the mid 1800's and use of a firearm in a home defense situation is presumptive. As to the Scottsdale crime rate, a quick check of their stats proved his claim woefully incorrect. Interestingly that vid (and many others like it) have since been deleted. But it was then I realized this guy is just selling snake oil.
So Travis, I think second chances are generally good. But for you I'll take your advice and make an exception.