The Hunt for Coronado's Lost Campsite
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- čas přidán 30. 07. 2024
- The Spanish explorer Coronado traveled across the American Southwest with a huge entourage in 1540 and yet very little is know about his route and almost no evidence of his passage has been found. In this video I dig into the expedition chronicles to find evidence of the route that he took compare that to the topography of this area and look at some artifacts that point to where the expedition passed.
#coronado
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Yeah, today's video has nothing to do with pottery, but it does connect with ancient ruins and Southwestern history. Next week I will be back on pottery I promise. In the meantime, if you like the documentary format try this one all about the "Salado Phenomenon" czcams.com/video/4KkV8ZKgXXI/video.html
De Luna, de Soto for Florida
Spanish explorer.. I won’t say more! Thanks for recognizing the correct definition instead of the characterization of “CONQUISTADORS” they were the first explorers of the new continent.
I often tell a good friend from Saskatchewan that Canada was actually discovered by Coronado while he was looking for El Dorado. And the real name of Canada is "Ca nada" - "nothing here".
Ha ha!
@@AncientPottery if you in Sask. you're right in the middle of nothing here.
Pretty sure it was discovered thousands of years before that
It's a portuguese name
By a white boy settler yes. The americas have been occupied by humans for thousands (possibly 10s of thousands) of years
Im a native from Zuni, Pueblo and always wanted to know more about Coronado's expedition, interesting! Thank you for your videos you are a great teacher.
Thank you
I love the affectation of a posh accent for Juan Jaramillo's quotes. Excellent work.
I had fun with the voices. I wish I could do a convincing Spanish accent, you would think growing up in the border that I could, but alas.
Very, very well done! I love the mix of quotes, maps and pictures. Thanks so much.
I live in tombstone and been interested in this history foe the past 14 years
I grew up in Sierra Vista, the Coronado lore in that area got me interested in this subject many years ago. My knowledge of the San Pedro River was what made me question the most accepted theories about Coronado’s route.
This is going to be a big one Andy! I like it! Great stuff! One of my friends found a spanish sward on his ranch... I thought it was a hat rack in a cave and it turned out to be a sward... Later they found spanish armour as well, but I was not there for that amazing find...Love this video, it reminds me of the adventurous days! Thank you again, sir!
Thanks Mark! That Spanish armor and swords got spread all over by the Natives who got their hands on it. Can you imagine what the trade value for a sword was on 1540?
I really enjoy your pottery videos, but I love your history and Archeology content, it brings the pottery to life. Super awesome!
Thanks for that. I’ll keep making one of this type every so often.
Great video Andy, you are really becoming a David Attenborough 😜😜😜😜👍🏼
Ha ha, thanks Tony!
I really enjoyed this little history excursion. The illustrations are extremely well done and demonstrate what you are conveying, very clearly.
Thanks, glad to hear it. This kind of video, although it requires far less shooting of video, takes a lot longer to make because of all the illustrations and trying to figure out how best to illustrate a point.
@@AncientPottery - I believe it. Glad that you did. Thanks for the effort. I hope you enjoyed doing this vid as much as I enjoyed watching it.
I always enjoy your archeological excursions, Andy. It makes me want to break out my Google Earth and travel long with you!
Thanks Dave, this was a fun change of pace for me and best of all since it is the hottest time of the year here, I made most of it without leaving my office.
Great video Andy! I love the archeology and history of our area. Your channel is one of the best.
Thanks 👍
Being a native and ancestor of a pioneering family of southeastern Arizona, it has long been rumored for generations that the Coronado National Park on the south end of the Huachuca Mountains is actually 40 miles west of his actual entrance into Arizona 20 miles east of Douglas. The Coronado group went up through the Skeleton Canyon area and north along the San Simon River to the Gila River then east into the Gila Mountain to the Gila Pueblos in New Mexico. There were many rivers and streams in northern Mexico and southern Arizona flowing 400 to 500 years ago that don't exist today. The valleys are dead giveaway to those creeks and rivers that flowed centuries ago. Another former south flowing river that doesn't exist today is the Whitewater Wash that runs from Douglas/Aqua Preita (Spanish for muddy water) north to near Sunizona. East of this is the Chiricahua Mountains the further east to the San Simon River. There are several passes through the Chiricahua Mountains running east to west. That is the most likely route. My entire life, 56 years, now Hwy 191, formerly Hwy 666, was called the Coronado trial from Douglas all the way to the Navajo Reservation in New Mexico. Hwy 80 east from Douglas was also called Coronado Route 80 for decades prior to the 70s.
Everything about the "first contact" explorers in the "New World" is fascinating, the changes that took place across the continent during the first 100 years is mind boggling. The men of de Soto's army were the only Europeans to see the interior nations of the SE that existed before the epidemics...When one travels throughout the SW, it's over whelming trying to visualize Coronado's huge expedition struggling through much of that land, it's big inhospitable country...How amazed the plains Indians must have been seeing horses 150 years before the horse culture really began for the western Indians... Fascinating subject, very well done video, thank you.
Thank you. Coronado and DeSoto explored in the same years and came within a few hundred miles of each other. Interesting times that we know far too little about.
@@AncientPottery Yes... It's recorded that there was an Indian woman who had contact with both parties, can you imagine...
Go back about 500 years in history and read all those Norse sagas about their encounters with the "scraelings" (or skraelings).
awesome video! i found it really engaging. I love this style of history video
Awesome, thank you!
Thanks for this video. Very interesting and informative. You have an excellent on-screen presence, even a good speaking voice. Love your channel. Your videos are a pleasure to watch. Keep up the great work!
Thanks. Years of working at it and I am seeing improvements in my abilities.
I am a professional archaeologist from Arizona. Worked in southern Arizona for decades. Question: do you believe there was water in those 'north flowing streams' in June? It is amazing to me to think those small rivers, even smaller than the Santa Cruz, San Pedro, etc., actually had water in them. They must have as it was the dead heat of summer, likely before the monsoons had yet arrived. Thank you!
Check out the book, "The Changing Mile" there was a lot more surface water back in the day before overgrazing and erosion and groundwater pumping drained the valleys of water.
at this time and on into the arrival of pioneers going west, the Mojave and other deserts had lakes of water; you can see today the dried up lakes, and the edges are great for artifact hunting. they're dry and have been for 200 years. but this was over 400 years ago.
I live in Bisbee and know the region pretty well. Interesting take on it! You might want to consider whitewater draw, flowing from the Chiricahuas south west then south through the sulphur springs valley, through Agua prieta, Sonora, and down to the rio yaqui. Not much water in it now, but back then it would have been usable, with good forage. They could have followed whitewater draw to Rucker canyon in the southern Chiricahuas and through Tex canyon into the san Bernardino valley, or headed up to Apache pass, with plentiful water.
These were paths used by Apaches on their raids into Sonora for mules, and thus the Mule Mountains, where Bisbee is. Good water coming out of the Mules southeastward, intersecting Whitewater and into Agua prieta.
Thanks for resparking my interest!
In the San Simon Valley the water table was much much higher until the 1960's when it dropped. You can tell from listening to some of the wells that are open that there is flowing water tapped by some.
Another great video. Nice voice work too.
Ha, thanks. I toyed with the idea of getting native Spanish speakers to do all the voices but ended up deciding that I trusted my own reading more than others to emphasize the right portion and convey the right attitude.
I don't know how it has taken me a year to find your channel, but I'm glad I did! I live near Silver City, NM, and have been interested in Brasher's and Seymour's ideas for a decade. Last week I was camping in the southern Burro Mountains and the Red Rock area! The Mangas Valley area sure makes perfect sense. It is always lush and green and of course, appealed to Mangas Coloradas and his Apache band. Another epic journey I would like to know more about is that of Alvar Nunez Cabeza de Vaca who traversed part of what is now the U.S in the 1530's. One editor and translator of his journals (Cyclone Covey, in "Adventures in the Unknown Interior of America" UNM Press 1961) has him leaving the Rio Grande near Hatch, NM and crossing the Mimbres River and the Burro Mountains before heading south to Mexico City! Thank you so much for your fine work.
Thank you. That is a great area with lots of history.
Conquistador Jimenez was Looking for The Treasure of Eldorado He was standing on top of it
He and his men immediately felt sick and nauseous. Then left the area. The Treasure is still there. Thanks
Thanks for that interesting bit of lore.
So interesting and well thought out
Thank you.
Great analysis, Andy! I'm amazed at your keen insights. If I were there, there is no doubt in my mind that I'd be looking for these antique sites, just as you. Keep-up the good work!
Thanks David
New sub! Liked 🙂✌️🌞👍😀
Awesome thank you!
Andy, I love these kinds of videos 😍
Glad to hear it, thanks.
Very interesting. Now its time to mount an expedition. You put a huge amount of effort into making this video.
Thanks for recognizing the labor in this one. I'm going to Chichilticalli on 4th of July weekend.
Thank You very much ,Andy! Great video and so informative.👍
My pleasure!
Fascinating stuff Andy!
Many thanks!
Love hearing about your exploration 💞
Thanks, glad you liked it.
Thanks for showing your work Andy! A+
Excellent video. Extremely interesting and very well presented.
it will be very interesting to find remains of Coronado expedition
Yes!
Enjoyed both of your Coronado videos. I enjoyed the Coronado site in Barnalillo, NM. I found it interesting that they only recently found the copper points, nails and chain mail remnants that are period correct to establish his likely winter camp site along the Rio Grande at the Pueblo site.
Yes, very cool. I visited that Coronado site in Bernalillo some years back when they were saying that they had not found any Coronado artifacts there.
you have a good way of boiling things down & avoiding extraneous speculation
These are excellent videos sir. Very well done. I am usually telling anyone that will listen or is interested about what a special time we live in. We can do things research wise that weren’t even close to possible five or ten years ago. Combine that with GPR, drone with LiDAR, magnetometer, and satellite based mapping systems just to name a few innovations and we can look forward to many historic finds over the next 20 years. I leave the stuff like outlined in this video to the professionals but that still leaves thousands of cache sites lost to history to stay busy with :).
Fantastic! An excellent and thorough analysis of a very interesting moment in history. Would you happen to know if Chichilticalli has a specific meaning or etymology in Nahuatl?
Thanks! It means “red house” in Nahuatl.
@@AncientPottery thanks!
I am Native American and I've always been fascinated by the story of the Conquistadores.
Me too!
Very cool history lesson. If they had taught local history in school, I would have paid more attention.
Thanks
Keep this helpful work
Thank you, I will
Good Sleuthing!
Thanks.
Very good information i grew up in southern New Mexico and handful of places to high schools are named after Coronado. Very interesting keep the videos coming! 👍🏻
Love this. As a Jaramillo born and raised in New Mexico it's cool to hear.
Omg incredible
Glad you liked it
This is really interesting. You put this together so well. Now I feel like putting on an Indiana Jones hat, grabbing my whip, and searching for this route.
LOL, it's a little off subject for my channel but I love history. Thanks!
Amazing video! I loved the story and the voices.
Thanks
Is that you doing the different voices ??? It sounds like it could be , and if it is you did an awesome job !!! Love love this bit of history video !!! Amazing
Thanks, yes, I did all the voices
This was very enjoyable !
Thanks Jeff. Don’t forget I’ll be firing pottery in Cliff on the morning of the 4th.
@@AncientPottery thanks for the invite! If you get a chance , maybe email me with time to show up and directions to the site! I know it’s hard to get lost in cliff but I’m not familiar with where the school is
Nice Spanish helmet at 01:12 I believe that example is from a collection in Florida.
Thank you, this was really cool! I find early Spanish-American history and exploration just fascinating. My people are from N. New Mexico and of Spanish descent. We have a lot of oral history of the Great Entrada. This was really a cool investigation.
Cool, glad you liked it
this is awesome I always wondered where they went
Hello, this was interesting! Four generations of my ancestors (father, grandfather, great- grandfather and 2nd gg) all lived in the Cactus Flats area of SE Arizona, all named Smithson. Grandpa Smithson (M.H., or "Cage" as he was called) was born in 1886, died in 1989 at age 103. He told the best yarns about the early settlers in the area - his father (Lehi) and grandfather (Allen F) being two of them. He spoke of Ft Thomas and San Simon a lot, how they'd travel there and back on horseback often, and also had many tales of our families dealings with Geronimo and the White Mountain Apaches back in the day. I spent a couple summers with him on the old homestead. US Hwy 666 ran just outside the bedroom windows...(highway since renamed!) Summer is so hot there, and no air conditioning, so I'd wake up very early to take a walk and "explore" across the highway on the east. I found buckets full of pottery shards and other interesting items. Wish grandpa had mentioned if he'd heard anything about Coronado's trek. He knew everything, and then some, about the history of the area and the people that settled there, as well as many other (mostly LDS) settlements in Utah, Northern Arizona, and San Bernardino, California too. Grandpa was a self-taught jack- of-all-trades (you had to be, so isolated) everything from drilling artesian wells to taxidermy. Collected mesquite wood for fuel. Hauled coke (NOT that kind!) by wagon from Bisbee to San Simone and back again. I sure miss his stories. He'd spend hours sitting quietly with his eyes closed..."just pondering." (I asked him once, "you sleeping? Nope. Pondering." He was a real kick in the pants.
Cool video I love history
Great, glad you liked it.
You're amazing!
Thank you
I live in Bisbee and know the region pretty well. Interesting take on it! You might want to consider whitewater draw, flowing from the Chiricahuas south west then south through the sulphur springs valley, through Agua prieta, Sonora, and down to the rio yaqui. Not much water in it now, but back then it would have been usable, with good forage. They could have followed whitewater draw to Rucker canyon in the southern Chiricahuas and through Tex canyon into the san Bernardino valley, or headed up to Apache pass, with plentiful water.
These were paths used by Apaches on their raids into Sonora for mules, and thus the Mule Mountains, where Bisbee is. Good water coming out of the Mules southeastward, intersecting Whitewater and into Agua prieta.
Thanks for resparking my interest!
I know that are pretty well too, having spent most of my life living in Sierra Vista. As far as I know Whitewall Draw was never a regular stream. Besides we are looking for a north flowing stream, Whitewater draw is a south flowing stream.
Just visited Coronado heights in Lindsborg Kansas.really amazing place
Great adventure! Good addition to pot making.
Heard of a set of pots made to put one inside other with sand between to act as a cooler because you put water into the sand. Called a zee?or Zeek? cooler. How well do those work?
Never heard of it and don't see anything about it on the internet.
@@AncientPottery
That is because I had name wrong it is called a "ZEER COOLER" or clay refrigeration system.
I just bumped into this accidentally looking up Coronado's campsite info. Good work Andy. I think that I've met you along time ago!
Joe Ward?
@@AncientPottery Yeah, I met you in the early seventies.
@@JoeWard-zf9co ha ha
I see you will trip over the same issue I have when trying to track large groups in the historical record .... ANY guess/estimate on how far they traveled in a day by horse/afoot ? I hear some estimates as low a 20 miles a day and some a high as 50 miles ..... Regardless , when the measure is time instead of distance it is going to definitely impact on where any possible target areas are .
I am presently looking to track a course for a military column of 200 men less than 150 miles long that can only have one possible camp site during the trip ..... with no records ... at least none I have been able to find . Good Luck to you .
Really interesting video, nice change of subjects though still related. I don't know much about North American history, so I appreciate this!
Just one quick caveat: from discussions with former colleagues and reading their papers, the precipitation regimes (and droughts) and river flow amounts were quite different at certain points in time. Using modern day vegetation cover could be misleading. Unfortunately I have no longer access to much of the information (stupid paywalled journals), but you might want to check out stuff by Edward Cook or Kevin Anchukaitis, the more recent works could be open access, or you could try and go through a library (not sure if that works at all). If I find the time I can try and dig up some older stuff I might still have on my old laptop about droughts in North America for that time. I have not worked on that region, so I might (read: will) be misremembering stuff (plus that was years ago).
Yes, the vegetation has changed some, mostly from overgrazing and fire suppression. But not so significantly in 500 years that it is completely unrecognizable. Thanks for watching and for the well thought out comment.
Thank you
I have recently visited and toured the Fountain of Youth park in St. Augustine, FL. While the fountain itself is the main attraction, I got more from the surrounding park and the people employed there to give reenactments and demonstrations of what life was like back then and the technology used. Anyways, one of things I came away with was how much of thing like "El Dorado", the Fountain of Youth, or the River of Gold were descriptions that the Spanish took literally? The "Fountain of Youth" is a series of fresh water springs from deep aquifers that the native Floridians used for drinking water and for irrigation so maybe the "Fountain of Youth" was a mistranslation of "Fountain of Life"? I've also heard that the "River of Gold" is actually the Mississippi River. Since the Mississippi is very muddy if you get up high enough and the Sun is shining just right the water will reflect the Sun's rays making the river look gold.
Francisco is my 15th great grandfather, his son Juan is my 14th great grandfather. Francisco’s wife Beatriz came from royalty Spanish kings, Italian and Greece rulers. I’ve been able to trace my blood line all the way too my 128 great grandfather Teucer king of Troy
That's pretty cool
This was an amazing analysis on where Chichilticalli could be. Was that a buffalo on the map? I was reading an article on ancientpottery about the origins of its name. It’s interesting to think that the name was given by Nahuatl speakers who experienced the fall of the Aztec Empire.
This transitions perfectly into my question. With the native allies Coronado brought with him being regarded as the first ‘Mexicans’ in the US, and many establishing communities in the Southwest the following century, did they have any influence on the Southwestern native pottery created during this era?
I have often thought about how Chichilticallii was given a Nuhuatl name. I wonder if they just made up a name or if this was their translation of what the locals were calling it. I have never heard anything about Mexican influence on pottery in this era. Definitely though in the 1600s in New Mexico.
Loved the video, the Spanish movement across the Southwest is a pet subject of mine. I would like to know if they carried any utilitarian pottery with them. Can you share a reference on that pic at about 0:49?
That is a painting at Coronado National Memorial in southeast Arizona. I believe they found sherds of Spanish and Mexican pottery at the Jimmy Owens site in the Texas panhandle. That was a spot where the party was caught in a hail storm that broke some of their pottery.
@@AncientPottery Thank you for your very thoughtful reply. The pottery you mentioned is not easy to trace. Every clue is helpful.
Coronado loved people!
Love the research and thought process you went through. There is a lost treasure here on the Purgatory River.. If you could just pinpoint that for me.
I bet it was the San Simon route, one of the old farmer families is supposed to possess a Conquistador-type helmet found there.
Cool, I have never heard that
Idk I believe he made it up to south mountain Phoenix Az. During my explorations of south mountain I found many of rock writings. Most done by natives. But I found one large rock that had Spanish writing scratched on the bottom east side of that rock. The rock is easy to pass by without noticing the Spanish writing. It had a famous Spanish explorers name with a very old date. I took a photo of it and it’s in a box somewhere in the basement. I also found many Spanish diggings..holes in the ground, possibly looking for silver or gold. I assumed the state knew about the area and said nothing to park rangers about what I found. But the name you mentioned in this video could be what’s in that rock.
There have been some Spanish artifacts found between Duncan, Arizona and York Valley which Is situated along the Gila River.
In the 1990s a Boulder college student found a morion helmet in a cave in the San Juan mountains. Unfortunately the location was not recorded and the helmet was sold to an unknown buyer.
That's cool. These early Spanish artifacts were traded all over North America by Natives, so the location of an artifact does not always indicate where the Spanish were at.
it's in west texas, there is even a sign on highway 89 near hwy 277 west of buffalo gap
That name chiciltcali is also the name of an ancient turquoise mine in
New Mexico .
It is close to Madrid along the turquoise trail
Interesting
I think the claim is owned by the brown family in Madrid the have a took and mineral shop there.
I live in South Louisiana and close to the Old Spanish Trail. There’s a lot of people here that carry Spanish Surnames that consider themselves Cajun. Surnames such as Aguillard, Manuel, Ortego, Suarez etc. are prominent here.
That's cool.
So the Kinishba Ruins near Whiteriver are way too far NW of this Coronado track to be Chichilticalli?
They are awfully red...
There was a local auction ~25 years ago in Wisconsin with a Spanish stirrup that had been found in Colorado. Wish I could have bought it. Also would have liked to hear where it was found. Since it was an estate auction though, I don't know if anyone alive still knew.
That's cool
Seems like you've cleared up an intriguing mystery. Do the Pima have any stories about this, however slight, or the branch of Apache who "attacked" the party? Also, did some of the native groups split their dwellings between upper and lower desert, according to season? Wouldn't that affect some of the placenames given? At any rate, looks like they made it into the land of enchantment.
Not that I know of. The Apache didn't arrive here until the 1600s.
They were in NM the entire time. One of Coronado's Capo's went west into AZ.
One thing about hunting relics or historical sites is you can be off by 100 yards one way or 100 yards the other way and find nothing, but are sooooooo damn close lol.
What was the weather like back then ,could it be a stream that has dried up???
They say the weather is about the same but that groundwater pumping and overgrazing have caused the water table to drop, drying up springs and streams where there used to be water.
😂 that is casa grande Arizona😂❤
He got clear up to Kansas!
For a spaniard he sounds very British upper class
Andy..have you seen Seymore's new evidence of Coronado establishing a camp that was the site of a battle on the Babocomeri ?
No I haven’t. Has she published anything I can read?
@@AncientPottery…there is a documentary film that will be screened in Nogales in December. Please check out her new video on you tube which claims proof of Coronado on the Babocamari....THE VIDEO ON YOU TUBE IS CALLED...."CORONADO: THE NEW EVIDENCE TRAILER " Would love to hear your thoughts please.
From Northern British Columbia. They did not come North. As there is lots here
👍
😎👍🏼
Mule Creek NM,AZ
Mule Creek is in NM and does not seem to be on the route, but hey I would love for someone to prove me wrong.
Hi everyone 👋🏼
Hi
In the Spanish of the time, X was pronounced SH. Thus, 'Rio Neshpa'.
That's good to know, thanks
Woody Woodpecker Helmets!!!!!
LOL
Nearly 500 years later, it is quite likely that the rivers have changed their courses and or completely dried up from where they did their crossings. So your modern maps probably don’t mean much.
These are very deep valleys, these rivers would take millennia to change their courses significantly, not 500 years.
😄👏👍
you need to do some satellite Lidar scanning.
That would be great!
It would be so rad to find a helmet.
definitely
You did a great job on this presentation. @@AncientPottery
Any chance that they didn't wear full body armor while exploring?
They definitely did not travel in their armor
The movie Indiana Jones made the name Coronado famous for millions that never heard of that explorer.. funny how fiction sometimes trumps reality... althouth there was a Cross of Cortes
All the paintings show Coronado and his men wearing heavy armor plates on their chest and heavy metal helmets...I doubt they did that in Arizona heat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, it makes a more dramatic image, although not realistic
Over A thousand Indians and 300 Europeans how do you feed that many people in A landscape such as that
They were almost starving at one point, mostly they survived by taking food from the Native villages
"right, and left" instead of East or West?? HUH?? or were these notes written by wealthy members who didn't know what a compass even was???!
Yeah I don't know why they used that kind of language, for all I know that was a common way of referring to directions in those days
What do the Spanish have an English accent?😂
Hunt for Coronado's Lost Hat ??