A Presbyterian and a Baptist discuss how they derive their polity and who calls the shots. In this video: Ligon Duncan, Thabiti Anyabwile Permalink: thegospelcoalition.org/resourc...
Excellent illustration of the elders serving as a court, being able to properly understand and apply the word of God and holding one another accountable to a plurality of conscience., and giving direction to the government of the church body.
It's been my experience in both the Presbyterian and Baptist church that elders present matters of church discipline to the entire congregation in order to keep their actions accountable to the entire church body.
Thank u for this. Coming from a one-rule, & then a Congregational church, I’ve realized that I now am led to shepherd a flock with a Presbyterian polity while still maintaining my non-holiness Pentecostal stance on once saved, NOT always saved. Does anyone know of any denominations, and/or flocks to adhere to these unique doctrines? Thank u in advance.
What about a church run by a trustee board to which members nominated to be on the trustee board are nominated by the trustee board? In other words no one is elected to the trustee board that's not selected by the trustee board
6:30 "Tell it to the church" means "tell it to the church". It does not mean tell it to the elders like Presbyterians would like for it to mean. Presbyterians like to eisegete from Deuteronomy that "assembly" means "elders", but they fail to consider that OT Israel didn't have phones or email. They had a "chain" of communication to "tell the assembly" which started with the "elders", so when you tell the "elders" , the "elders" would pass the information down the line until everyone ("assembly") knew the information. The Presbyterians don't have much to stand on here. Matt 18 (Discipline) enables the Church to discern whether someone exhibits behavior like that a Christian would have thus being able to tell if he is a Christian. A Christian will repent. When the Church is "told" then the entire "body" has the opportunity to love the brother through admonition and reproof whenever given the opportunity. If the sinning brother does not listen to the "Church" then over time the entire Church will have evidence that the man was probably never saved since he doesn't show works of repentance. Now, the Church can treat him as a "non believer" (Heathen/tax collector) and lovingly evangelize the man. You don't punish someone and "ban" them just because they were deceived into thinking they were a Christian. You love them all the more. The Presbyterians take away the opportunity of the "Church" to "go to the sinning brother" and Presbyterians take away the opportunity to have "intercessory prayer" lifted up by the Congregation for the sinning man. I've seen Presbyterians excommunicate without cause and it's not pretty. Presbyterian elders usually usurp authority they don't Biblically have. The people bear the responsibility of sin of the elders, so if the elders sin and the congregation doesn't correct it, then the congregation should be held accountable, and God does bring judgment upon the people if they don't correct their "representatives".
The passage you are using does not specify the means through which you would tell it to the congregation. Is there a problem with telling the Elders to present it to the church? Unless you don't have confidence in your leaders or you simply are someone who does not like authority figures.
@@nberrios777 it does not say tell it to the elders. It says tell it to the church. The church body needs an opportunity to confront the sinner, so if he doesn't repent, then the whole church would see they are hard hearted and acting like an unbeliever. The next step is to treat them as if they were never saved, so evangelism would be the following step because there is no evidence of being a Christian. If you want to use the Elders as an intermediary step as with one or two witnesses.... fine. Go ahead, but skipping the church is blatant disobedience by the pastor and elders.
@@sonnyh9774 Is there a problem with letting the Elders know and let them present it to the church in a meeting? Or you just grab the pulpit microphone and tell it to the church?
For the catholic church, the members believe that Peter had established the catholic church first at Rome, taking advantage of the Roman govt empire. Peter led his church, being chosen by Jesus as the leader of the disciples and also to lead the people to follow Jesus. The Roman Catholic Church is quite organized with proper hierarchy and consistent way of prayer and mass.
This makes no sense to the institutional, worldly assumption of hierarchy. And yet the Holy Spirit governs the Church through a plurality of qualified elders.
Um...Anglican here. We consider our ecclesiology to come from Scripture. Since there are no more Apostles, Bishops have filled in that place. So it was Apostles, Bishops/Presbyters, Deacons, and now it is Bishops, Presbyters, and Deacons.
I'm not a member of a ptesbyterian church, but the question is how bishops governed. the epistle of Clement and the Didache seem to induce us to think that there was an assembly of bishops in charge of a church, by the fact they use plural when saying for Christians to elect for themselves bishops (Didache) and that the Corinthians had deposed the bishops (plural) of the church of Corinth, which was in fact (at least as far as I know) one and united.
Christ is the High Priest of the New Covenant Church in the Book of Hebrews. Roman Catholics claim Peter is the rock the church is built upon. Peter says otherwise in 1 Peter 2:4-10. Sadly, many Protestants have turned their preachers into another Pope. Nowhere does the New Testament tell us to search for the best trained man, and then turn the operation of the local church over to this one man. Paul Speaks to the Ephesian Elders Act 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church. Act 20:18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons, Act 20:19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews: Act 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Act 20:22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: Act 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. Act 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. Act 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. Act 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. Act 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. Act 20:33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel. Act 20:34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. Act 20:35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. Act 20:36 And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all. Act 20:37 And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him, Act 20:38 Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him unto the ship.
8:40 Heb 13:17 "obey" does not mean obey like a military command structure. It means be persuaded by their example. Authoritarians abuse this verse and abuse people with it. Paul said imitate my example. Jesus said the disciples would not "Lord it over one another". Heb 13:7 imitate the elders example. Presbyterians are very susceptible to authoritarianism.
I agree that in some Presbyterian churches the leaders do abuse their roles. What is equally true in some Baptist churches is that despite saying that the congregation has the final vote, I have witnessed leaders there making significant changes without even letting the congregation know behind the "curtain". It comes down to character.
Excellent illustration of the elders serving as a court, being able to properly understand and apply the word of God and holding one another accountable to a plurality of conscience., and giving direction to the government of the church body.
It's been my experience in both the Presbyterian and Baptist church that elders present matters of church discipline to the entire congregation in order to keep their actions accountable to the entire church body.
How can shepherds lead in a congregation-led church?
Thank u for this. Coming from a one-rule, & then a Congregational church, I’ve realized that I now am led to shepherd a flock with a Presbyterian polity while still maintaining my non-holiness Pentecostal stance on once saved, NOT always saved. Does anyone know of any denominations, and/or flocks to adhere to these unique doctrines? Thank u in advance.
Instablaster
What about a church run by a trustee board to which members nominated to be on the trustee board are nominated by the trustee board? In other words no one is elected to the trustee board that's not selected by the trustee board
6:30 "Tell it to the church" means "tell it to the church". It does not mean tell it to the elders like Presbyterians would like for it to mean. Presbyterians like to eisegete from Deuteronomy that "assembly" means "elders", but they fail to consider that OT Israel didn't have phones or email. They had a "chain" of communication to "tell the assembly" which started with the "elders", so when you tell the "elders" , the "elders" would pass the information down the line until everyone ("assembly") knew the information. The Presbyterians don't have much to stand on here. Matt 18 (Discipline) enables the Church to discern whether someone exhibits behavior like that a Christian would have thus being able to tell if he is a Christian. A Christian will repent. When the Church is "told" then the entire "body" has the opportunity to love the brother through admonition and reproof whenever given the opportunity. If the sinning brother does not listen to the "Church" then over time the entire Church will have evidence that the man was probably never saved since he doesn't show works of repentance. Now, the Church can treat him as a "non believer" (Heathen/tax collector) and lovingly evangelize the man. You don't punish someone and "ban" them just because they were deceived into thinking they were a Christian. You love them all the more. The Presbyterians take away the opportunity of the "Church" to "go to the sinning brother" and Presbyterians take away the opportunity to have "intercessory prayer" lifted up by the Congregation for the sinning man. I've seen Presbyterians excommunicate without cause and it's not pretty. Presbyterian elders usually usurp authority they don't Biblically have. The people bear the responsibility of sin of the elders, so if the elders sin and the congregation doesn't correct it, then the congregation should be held accountable, and God does bring judgment upon the people if they don't correct their "representatives".
The passage you are using does not specify the means through which you would tell it to the congregation.
Is there a problem with telling the Elders to present it to the church? Unless you don't have confidence in your leaders or you simply are someone who does not like authority figures.
@@nberrios777 it does not say tell it to the elders. It says tell it to the church. The church body needs an opportunity to confront the sinner, so if he doesn't repent, then the whole church would see they are hard hearted and acting like an unbeliever. The next step is to treat them as if they were never saved, so evangelism would be the following step because there is no evidence of being a Christian. If you want to use the Elders as an intermediary step as with one or two witnesses.... fine. Go ahead, but skipping the church is blatant disobedience by the pastor and elders.
@@sonnyh9774 Is there a problem with letting the Elders know and let them present it to the church in a meeting? Or you just grab the pulpit microphone and tell it to the church?
@@nberrios777 that's for each church to work out. If you can take prayer requests, the pastor can instruct the church with Scripture
For the catholic church, the members believe that Peter had established the catholic church first at Rome, taking advantage of the Roman govt empire. Peter led his church, being chosen by Jesus as the leader of the disciples and also to lead the people to follow Jesus. The Roman Catholic Church is quite organized with proper hierarchy and consistent way of prayer and mass.
"Proper" hierarchy is no real hierarchy at all.
This makes no sense to the institutional, worldly assumption of hierarchy. And yet the Holy Spirit governs the Church through a plurality of qualified elders.
King James Bible 1611 preach the Gospel to all nations
Um...Anglican here. We consider our ecclesiology to come from Scripture. Since there are no more Apostles, Bishops have filled in that place. So it was Apostles, Bishops/Presbyters, Deacons, and now it is Bishops, Presbyters, and Deacons.
I'm not a member of a ptesbyterian church, but the question is how bishops governed. the epistle of Clement and the Didache seem to induce us to think that there was an assembly of bishops in charge of a church, by the fact they use plural when saying for Christians to elect for themselves bishops (Didache) and that the Corinthians had deposed the bishops (plural) of the church of Corinth, which was in fact (at least as far as I know) one and united.
Christ is the High Priest of the New Covenant Church in the Book of Hebrews.
Roman Catholics claim Peter is the rock the church is built upon. Peter says otherwise in 1 Peter 2:4-10.
Sadly, many Protestants have turned their preachers into another Pope.
Nowhere does the New Testament tell us to search for the best trained man, and then turn the operation of the local church over to this one man.
Paul Speaks to the Ephesian Elders
Act 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
Act 20:18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
Act 20:19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
Act 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 20:22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
Act 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
Act 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Act 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
Act 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
Act 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
Act 20:33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
Act 20:34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
Act 20:35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
Act 20:36 And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all.
Act 20:37 And they all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him,
Act 20:38 Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spake, that they should see his face no more. And they accompanied him unto the ship.
I respectfully posit Presbyterians subscribe to a number of theological mistakes - not just one or two.
@@jakesanders136 Your point?
8:40 Heb 13:17 "obey" does not mean obey like a military command structure. It means be persuaded by their example. Authoritarians abuse this verse and abuse people with it. Paul said imitate my example. Jesus said the disciples would not "Lord it over one another". Heb 13:7 imitate the elders example. Presbyterians are very susceptible to authoritarianism.
I agree that in some Presbyterian churches the leaders do abuse their roles. What is equally true in some Baptist churches is that despite saying that the congregation has the final vote, I have witnessed leaders there making significant changes without even letting the congregation know behind the "curtain". It comes down to character.
Obey as far as you can be sincerely convinced it it true and proper.
Greedy people.