Byleth is definitely somewhere in high tier. Being a swordie with a good burst option in dash attack, solid OOS with n-air and up-b, and throw combos until high percents is really nice.
Dash attack isn't that good of a burst option since it doesn't cross up shields like other ones. Also throw combos until high percents?? The only one that applies to is dthrow and that's only on DI in, and only if by "high percents" you mean like, 80%-90% Nair and UpB are good oos options but they're also f9, which is just a tiny bit on the slow side in this game. Consider chars like Ness, Palu, Peach, ZSS, Pac, Cloud, or Min Min who all have faster and still also very solid oos. Byleth's oos def isn't bad, but it's not amazing either. Imo it's between average and good
@@IndigoStarturds Byleth oos isnt that worse than Min Min's lol. Min Min oos only comes out 1 frame faster XD I just think Byleth has good oos because it has decent range.
Something a lot of people aren't aware of is that Byleth's UpB will prioritize grabbing the ledge over grabbing characters *unless Byleth has already grabbed the ledge once*. At 14:28 you said that Leo missed up and meant to grab Kola. While that is probably true, since Leo hadn't grabbed the ledge yet, it automatically snapped to the ledge and ignored Kola. This also happened vs Chag at Port Priority 6. Leo tried to do utilt UpB which is normally a guaranteed combo at low-mid %s. However, since he jumped up and just *barely* went over the edge, UpB grabbed the ledge from basically straight up above it instead of Palu and put Leo in a bad situation that directly led to him losing his stock from 53. It happens at 4:42 of the vod and I recommend checking it out because it's way easier to see than to read it, and is a great example of how UpB's auto-tether can work against you not that infrequently. Another way to have UpB actually grab people is to be out of its ledge detection range, but that would mean dropping super low and is riskier than just putting yourself in a regrab situation. Also, UpB sometimes freaks out if it's at a certain distance where it can both grab a person or just barely tether the ledge, and it'll fail lol
Últimate has a thing where you cant regrab ledge if a second hasnt pass thats why if you let go of ledge and up B it will always go for the character because you cant grab ledge
Leo has progressed so much with Byleth, who currently looks more dangerous than his Joker in his glory days, it's ironic, Leo used Joker and people said he was the best in the game and now that he uses Byleth they say he's just Leo, assuming that Byleth is mediocre as many assure then Joker is High tier for having bad options outside the shield.
@@voodooedits785 I said that he currently looked, not that he was, also that he said in September, I do not doubt that he will use Joker again and stand out as before, but currently his Joker is rusty.
If quarantine didn’t happen I think Leo would still be maining joker. Joker is similar to pika and shiek in that online they are nerfed and significantly harder to play. Joker is such a hard character to tier because of Arsene, obviously with arsene activated he’s the best character but that’s like 30-40% of the time so it’s tough. Imo joker is slightly better than byleth but it’s a lot closer than some realize.
When Byleth was released, the community was desperate to hate him. They overlooked the potential, but when the best player in the world says the character is good, that’s worth noticing. Glad Leo has been able to prove everyone wrong!
i know right, I played three house first. so when I saw she/he was announced I was happy and decided to main them. At first I thought they were not too good, but I was playing her wrong. now everyone is like she's op and stuff. makes you wonder who else could be better then was people think?
@@sniperalexander248 Yeah! The meta is still so young when compared to Melee, so there are a bunch of characters with the potential to shine that we just haven't seen yet! It makes it really exciting to follow this game's competitive scene.
Buffing Up B made them official Ultimate DLC lol. I play Byleth and Cloud. I was very happy with the Byleth buffs. I'll take the Cloud ones. Finishing Touch buff isn't that easy to take advantage of.
Imagine if Leo started playing dr mario and people started saying things like "maybe he IS high tier, I mean down b lets him get out of so many situations and edguard most of the cast for free"
I’m convinced that high-mid-low tiers are different per individual player. Some characters just fit a players preferred playing style, etc… sure there’s some generally high and low characters, but lots and lots of gray area depending on who is playing and that persons individual strength / weakness as player.
Another reason byleth is solid and not a lot of people think about is that all his moves just work. Theres no falling out of smash attacks, hit boxes clanking in weird ways, multi hits just dropping. All of his moves consistently work and if anything are way more generous than they seem (Up-bs recovery/grab range)
it's the Leo effect. Leo could pick up an obscure midtier like Toon Link and within a week people would be crying about how broken bair is and he needs a nerf.
Well, Toon link may be a bit too low. But any character like sheik, cloud, falcon, luigi, Bowser, Pit, Falco, Sonic, Hero, Banjo, characters in that kinda range. Ones that are on the boarder between Upper-mid tier and low-high tier. In the like 30-50 best character range. Characters that arent bad but just arent as strong as the main High tiers or Top tiers. Toon link is a liiiiitle low on that list, he isnt as good as the upper-mid tiers. But who knows, maybe Leo could do that too.
Don't think the Leo effect changes whether or not the tools are good. Byleth has kill confirms out the ass. That's not a matter of Leo being good with the character as much as it is a part of their kit. Take Captain Falcon (mind the profile pic hahaah) who would be broken having his Knee and Falcon punch if he could confirm into them consistently, has a lack of other reliable kill moves and OOS options. Also, it's usually a guessing game therein: if I get the dair onstage, I still have to guess their DI or my knee doesn't land. As far as I'm aware, Byleth's confirms are very forgiving for how rewarding they are. Even if they weren't, he can kill with all but 1 tilt iirc, dash attack, fair, bair, up air, neutral b, side b, and down b. In the grand scheme of things, if he hits you, you're in trouble--it's only a matter of percent. Throw in his OOS option on top and versatile coverage moves like side-b and neutral b, he's a good character. The Leo effect brought it to light, I definitely agree. But I thought it was strange early on how people kept calling the character bad because they weren't like other swordies immediately out the box. Leo effect shut them the hell up. But he doesn't make the character.
@@romeospells2487 A good deal of Byleth's confirms arent guaranteed either and are DI dependent, but even so, it takes a lot more than just having kill confirms to be good. I mean look at DK, that character kills like its nobody's business. He has true kill confirms off grab on every character in the game in the 60-80% range. He has down b confirms, Giant punch, good raw kill power, back air, fantastic spikes, a great up air. In fact, DK probably has one of the best advantage states in the game. And yet he's not that good, and is stuck around mid tier or so if not lower. Why? Because he's bad in other ways. He's got one of the worst disadvantages in the game, his OOS isnt great, and his recovery leaves a lot to be desired. Now, Byleth is the same. Byleth does have some fantastic tooks, good kill confirms, good general kill power, some decent combos. But Byleth struggles in a lot of other ways. Byleth's aerials arent the safest on shield, theyre safe enough but when compared to most high or top tiers, they arent nearly as safe. Byleth's nair for example is -11 on shield which can be shield grabbed by most characters. Byleth's OOS options are OK, but theyre far from amazing. Up B isnt the fastest at frame 9, and nair OOS is also frame 9. Byleth has no OOS option faster than frame 9 which means punishing characters with frame data like -5 through -8 on shield is very difficult, and that kind of frame data is common among the better characters in this game. thats not to say up b and nair OOS are BAD, they just arent as good as better OOS options that a good deal of better characters tend to have. On top of that, byleth is SLOW. Byleth has pretty bad air and ground speed making it very hard for him to approach or keep up pressure or land or get out of strings. All of these things make byleth more exploitable. You brought up falcon, as a comparison, but Falcon is the 2nd fastest grounded character in the game, so he has plenty of positives over Byleth as well, its not just negatives. And lastly, Byleth's frame data isnt the greatest. its not bad, but byleth has no super fast options with his fastest aerial being nair at frame 6, and nothing else is close. Now, this is mostly fine because Byleth is a swordie, so byleth likes to play the mid range which this frame data is pretty standard for, but the reason I bring this up is because it means that byleth can struggle a lot in the close range. If you're fighting a charcter like Fox for example, and he's rushing you down and getting close range to you over and over, a character like Byleth isnt going to be able to handle that very well. fox is just going to out frame data you pretty much no matter what you do. this is a weakness for Byleth. Byleth HAS to keep characters in the mid range because if they get too close, Byleth can struggle a lot, especially since Byleth doesnt have a ton of mobility to escape these types of situations. Now, all that said, Byleth is still a pretty solid character. I personally rank him around as good as characters like Falcon, Cloud, Ike, Pichu, Sheik, Luigi, Bowser, etc. All of these characters have some very strong positives, and some negatives that prevent them from being high tier imo. These are all upper-mid tier characters who are just below high tier, but do have an argument for low-high tier. So Byleth isnt a bad character. But he does lack some of the tools that much better characters in the High and Top tiers have. He has a few noticeable weaknesses that prevent him from being as good as the top 30 or so characters.
@@eragon78 A couple things. 1) I have no idea where this whole "DK has one of the best advantage states in the game" thing comes from. He definitely isn't bad if you have your bair strings solid but his down b is not reliable, giant punch is a read based tool/counter hit, and I'm a bit confused on this "true grab kill confirm" unless we're talking about ding dong on platforms on some stages. I wouldn't call that a true grab kill confirm. His up air is very good though. Donkey Kong in no way has the best advantage state in the game. Donkey Kong isn't great because his advantage state isn't as good as it needs to be to make up for the things he's bad at. Combo food, and generally fairly slow (although he has a decent dash speed--but more on that later). There are plenty of characters with a better advantage state and even more devastating tools to capitalize on their advantage state (I do think Falcon is an easy upgrade on DK and characters like Roy, Mythra, Joker, and Peach all have a waaay better advantage state than DK). Mentioning Giant Punch, byleth has moves that hit arguably as hard without the need to charge them. Also, if frame data is your issue, Byleth has a frame 6 option in nair which doesn't have to be used on shield. You can make it safer with proper spacing and playing with the fast fall timing. Donkey Kong is lacking any decent OOS option except maybe down tilt. Short hop up air might be interesting too as a call out. I know your argument wasn't specifically about Donkey Kong, but none of his moves are particularly good defensively outside of up air. He has some good spacing tools, but is actually less prepared in a scramble which is where Byleth's OOS nair excels. The fact that byleth has an OOS option that also acts as a solid kill confirm with reactable frame windows is why it's so good. My comparison to captain falcon was meant to illustrate that a lot of his kill confirms have windows that are pretty tight at mid percents when they start to kill. You have to guess or go for a reset. Byleth can react to you and will usually be safe even if they're off. Also, on the subject of speed, calling falcon the 2nd fastest character is big misleading. This game is not about run speed. It's actually about dash speed as you don't often break out into full sprints from full stage. Falcon is actually only mid tier in his dash speed, with 30 characters above him. This is problematic for Falcon because if someone gets in on his shield he doesn't have very many good "Get off me tools." But also, if one of those characters decides to zone him, it can be pretty easy to alternate pressuring him and quickly distancing to whiff punish his attempt to swing from disadvantage. Characters like Greninja, Inkling, Wolf, and Falco do a pretty decent job at this. Falcon tends to be a character who relies on calling out his opponent as opposed to out boxing them for this reason--his grab range being so limited and his dash speed being middling means he's not as good at the rush down as he could be. As he should be. Byleth doesn't really have to worry about this as they don't care if he's able to get in. Typically defensive Byleth with selective pressure from neutral-b works well on most of the cast. Nair stuffs aerial approaches like crazy and also grounded approaches unless your opponent properly spaces (drag down nair into grab combos make the situation even worse). Granted if you run forward and shield and the Byleth is just panic nairing, they'll be decently vulnerable, but -9 or -11 on shield isn't a huge gap. If you're frame perfect or expecting it, you can get a decent reward with characters like falco who have good combos from fast options like up tilt. But it's definitely not a lot for most characters at low percents. Byleth doesn't have to chase you down. Spacing you out with Fair and bair can be enough to get you offstage where the ledge trapping becomes a big deal. Down smash and dair are actually good tools for conditioning your opponent not to shield because shield breaks into down b are devastating and frustrating if you keep holding shield. Just saying, Byleth is arguably the best character in the game for shield breaks which mitigates the lack of safety on shield to a degree. Neither you nor the opponent want you hitting their shield. Moral of the story is that not all elements of a character's gameplay are equally weighted. Byleth doesn't need speed to run away from faster characters. Nair will stuff sloppy approaches AND can net you kills, tech chases, and combos very consistently. They have 4 moves to shield break you with, and their aerials can wall you out with ease. Don't even get me started on up air. For how vulnerable slow characters typically are to being chased down, Byleth has insane kill power while also having a defensive option that is equal to Bowser's up b out of shield but 3 times as safe on shield. Like I just don't get how people complain about Bowser's OOS option when you get hard punishes on him if you shield (and also he isn't kill confirming off of up b either), but don't see how nair ties Byleth's incredible kit together. You're not supposed to get in, but they've got an answer if you do. They're a good character man.
@@romeospells2487 Ding Dong is true on basically every stage. Just watch Chunky Kong play or something. Grab at 70 and most characters are in range for ding dong on a platform and are dead. And nearly every stage in the game has platforms. The only stage that doesnt is FD. All DK has to do is grab you, walk to a platform, and then Ding Dong you. And DK's advantage state IS fantastic. His up air is fantastic at covering landings, his bair strings incredibly easily and its fast, down B covers tech options and can even break shields, Aerial Down B is -4 on shield making it very safe and its a kill confirm at like 60, Giant Punch is literally like a top 20 move in the game, it has super armor grounded, but its pretty fast and incredibly strong as well as very safe to throw out so even if you miss or hit a shield youre usually fine. DK's F tilt 2 frames quite well, and he can also 2 frame spike you, Dash attack covers tech options or landings, Again, because grab is a kill confirm, its always a VERY dangerous threat (not to mention he can just cargo throw you off stage. Plus, Cargo throw up throw just flat out kills at like 130-150% on most characters with a platform). DK literally does have one of the best advantage states in the game. Id probably say its top 15 or so. He has every tool he needs to pressure basically every character in every form of disadvantage, and he can very easily kill any character in disadvantage against him. And dont get me wrong, I do think Byleth is a lot better than DK. I am just using DK as an example to show that a character with good kill options doesnt mean theyre automatically good. I mean, at the very least, DK has a better advantage state than Byleth does, and he has better kill confirms too, yet he's a worse character. Also, Byleth's neutral B is not good. Its not terrible, but its pretty slow and has a consistent timing when it actually fires making it pretty easy to dodge or shield. Yes, Byleth can cancel it, but because the timing is ALWAYS the same, you can just ignore the threat of it until it WOULD fire. If a byleth is doing a neutral B, thats a free indentation to just run up and close the distance against byleth. The main time Byleth's neutral B is good is for sniping people off stage but thats about it. Also, -11 on shield is frame grabbable by any character with a 6 or 7 frame grab, which is like 70% of the cast. And you can buffer the grab OOS on reaction ot the nair hitting your shield. And -9 TECHNICALLY isnt frame grabbable, its ONLY -9 if you perfectly space it, and perfectly time it with the last hitbox and land on the first possible frame. And even then, you still get true grabbed OOS because byleth has no frame 1 option that dodges grab. The fastest option you can do is a spot dodge which doesnt come out till frame 4. So every character in the game with a normal (non-tether/long) grab can frame grab byleth's nair OOS on reaction. And thats not even including other potential faster OOS options that many characters have. Also, Nair only stuffs things sometimes. Its frame 6 which is OK speed, but it doesnt have the longest range, which means it can easily be swatted away with a disjoint. On top of that, nair last for a long time so if you preemptively nair and your opponent backs off, they can get a whiff punish in. I do this all the time when I fight nair happy Byleths, its pretty easy to punish if you bait it. Also, byleth's inability to approach DOES come into several match ups. If you're fighting a zoner for example, it can be tricky to approach without speed, and byleth will never beat a zoner with her neutral B because neutral B is far too easy to react to. Now thats not to say byleth is bad vs zoners, but it just shows in yet another way where speed comes into play. And again, speed also comes into play in disadvantage. Having poor air mobility makes it harder to land or dodge. Also, people complain about Bowser's up B OOS because its frame 6 and does a ton of damage. YOU CAN NOT PUNISH IT if you land on his shield with an unsafe move and he up B OOS you. Yea, a bad bowser who throws out up B OOS on a -3 aerial where you can just shield it will get punished. But if you land on bowser's shield with any move that is -6 or worse, then he can TRUE punish you with up B OOS. Thats why people complain, because a lot of moves are not -5 or better on shield. And even moves that are like -5 or -4, theyre only safe if you land within a frame or two of the move hitting his shield, and they arent stale. Byleth's up B OOS on the other hand is frame 9. Thats a LOT slower. its 50% slower than Bowser's. A lot more moves are -8 or faster on shield, especially from good characters which means theyre safe against byleth. That is why people complain about Bowser's Up b OOS and not really Byleths. That 3 frame difference matters a lot. A LOT more moves are -8 or faster than there are -5 or faster moves. Plus, Byleth's range on her up B is a lot worse too, even if you space well on bowser's shield, his up B can move a bit so he can still scoop you up even if you spaced well. If you space well on byleth's shield, he wont be able to up B OOS you. He can maybe get a nair OOS, but not an up B which is the one thats actually scary. Like, when I play Ridley against Byleth, im never scared of up B OOS because I always space my aerials. But against Bowser, even if I space my aerials, he will still scoop me up with his up B OOS. And again, im not saying Byleth is bad, Byleth is a pretty solid character. I just dont think Byleth is as good as characters like, Sonic, Olimar, Diddy, Ken, Megaman, Lucina, Samus, Ness, or all the other characters I consider high tier. These characters all also have broken options just like Byleth, but tend to have better overall kits with less noticeable weaknesses. If Byleth is a high tier, he's on like the lower end of high tier.
Byleth is deceptively "weak". He might be slow but he has tether grab which can kill/punish easily, so his vertical pressure is strong and hella scary off stage. A lot of his moves are long range (hence distance demon). If you try to kill him outside stage he can tether grab or most likely hit you before you hit him, especially with that nasty side special with vertical and horizontal range. He has a fat arrow he can cancel that keeps the pressure on even from long distance, and can pressure your opponents to do something punishable. He can also break shield easily with down smash/dair or shield poke with nair, which can become easy kill confirms. Byleth is also not so technically hard so a lot of his confirms are easy to pull off making him deadly consistent. Byleth is one hella of a drug... Also I hate that people use Ike as an example of this just being Leo. Ike was op because no one knew how to play the game yet so Ike could get away with a lot of stupid bullshit. it hadn't been out that long and Leo dropped him when people started figuring shit out. Leo doesn't seem to want to drop byleth anytime soon but is aware that some matchups will be painful if he only goes byleth. I think this discussion is interesting because even really good players are torn on Byleth. Byleth is a very cool character and I'm glad Leo is smacking people around with him lol
I whole heartedly agree with this comment. Byleth is really only scary if the player knows what they are doing. Hence the discussion of his spot. If you can abuse his strengths with ledge guarding and pressure he is a good character but if you can’t recover properly with him or use him to his full utility he’ll look like every other tether recovery character take their jump to gimp them and just zone.
One thing you forgot to mention since this is a very niche reason why Byleth UpB is also good, You can't tech it, even if you get stage-spiked based on certain angles. It's literally impossible.
Might as well delete this false comment, cause not only have i teched it, I've seen it teched when I did it to someone else. Timing is just unreal. I don't even think I did it on purpose tbh lol
I remember byleths launch, when everyone put him super low, and as soon as Leo does well its immediately a top tier. Everyone slept on byleths since release, glad to see he's getting the attention he deserves
Bro it's fucking MKLeo nigga could pick up any character a peeps will call them high tier or top tier remember how Ike was High tier at the beginning of Ult but once Leo dropped him he fell off hard
@@dimasddfoxy1492 my dude what year are you living in? This hasn't been real like ever, this is pure fucking cap when he's getting his ass handed to him in the aegis ditto by cosmos. If he could win with everyone he'd have done it with his comain (leo calls aegis his comain)
Your commentary on pro games is the best I've seen so far. It really picks apart how to play better and why characters work or not. I appreciate this content a lot.
To anyone out here really thinking that Byleth is a mid tier, try to picture him as being a fast character movement-wise. Looks like a top tier suddenly, right ? Well duh, guess what : obviously, because his lack of movement speed is his only relevant flaw actually denying him of this status. Byleth is a high tier, it's not just MKLeo. The damn character has good range and big disjoints, great kill power onstage, offstage and with or without kill confirms, good out of shield options, a recovery most characters can't gimp reliably/consistently, a decent/good matchup chart, even beating or not losing to some top tiers (and when he loses, it's slightly more often than not)... need I say more to open your eyes ? Also no, MKLeo couldn't win majors with any character. Hell no. MKLeo is obviously who he is, but in Ultimate, he always used swordies (Ike, Lucina), characters with good range and disjoints (Wolf), fast and powerful characters (Joker), or even all of that combined (Mythra/Pyra) in order to win. And most importantly, he always used good/great characters. Make him main solo Kirby. He won't win majors. Not trying to diss his skills or anything (I'm not among those who think he's carried, rather I think that he carries his characters), but these myths of " Byleth is a low/mid tier " and " MKLeo could main Ganondorf and still be the best player " got so old it became more annoying than funny. It's been years since Ultimate started and Byleth came out, and it's like most people still can't see these truths. At this point it feels like people keep sleeping on Byleth because they don't like him being a " waste of a character slot " and so it hurts them to even consider he could be good. When Joker came out, everyone was like " mid tier, high tier maybe " then MKLeo broke everyone face with him and people were like " Joker best in the game ". Everyone loves Joker. Just saying P.S Yes, I commented the same thing on VoiD's latest video. See it as propaganda if you like to lol but more seriously, I just don't think I'm wrong about what I said here
What gets me about the "Leo could win with anybody" thing is that he literally has tried multiple times to make Marth work and gotten poor results every time. Yet even though Leo couldn't make a character work, it seems like the common opinion in the community is "Marth is High Tier, people just don't play him since Lucina is better"
@@DSaC_ Common opinion I see is that Marth isn't even high, just Mid or sometimes low which I still think is way too fucking low for him. But I agree that people just say "Well it's MKLeo" as a sort of cop out answer to avoid any discussion, being the best player doesn't mean you can literally play everyone and make them work.
@@willycheez7218 His frame data is also significantly better than Sephiroth's, his fair comes out a frame faster, his bair 2, his up air 6, his nair 3, and then his smashes are also faster.
I say like the bottom of high at most for Byleth, but I usually just stick the character at top of Mid because I do think they're very solid. Byleth is a prime example of how you need to give a character time to see where they truly end up or how good they might actually be (I've seen some people put em in low once lmao), I'm hoping the same will happen for other characters as the game progresses.
While I agree with byleth being a good character this might remind me of marth in smash 4 when Leo was the only one getting results and some people thought the character was overrated. I hope this doesn’t happen again
I will say I think one of the reasons why byleth is so good is because byleth is a very “counter meta character” out of shield options have very much so fell out of the meta but with byleth having shield pressure with good range and having a nair that is a good out of shield option being also safe makes the character very hard to deal with
I love seeing people slowly take off their rage filtered glasses, still mad about the character being in the game, and realizing they’re actually really good.
Man, when Byleth first came out I loved him/her. Will always be my main... main. Seeing people now say "Byleth is actually good" while I've always been advocating it just brings a smile to my face
Larry, I think you'll find this interesting. T1 was doing interviews with Leo for each day of SWT (think they do it for every major Leo goes to). After Day 2 was over and they interviewed Leo after beating Dabuz, Leo said because of the nerfs he felt confident that Byleth could pull it off against Min Min. However, Dabuz went Rosalina instead. The video for it is here: czcams.com/video/Q25I_ovPFuE/video.html
Been playing a lot of this character the past months, can say Byleth and Sora are my mains, here is my scrub opinion and some points lots of people don't talk about too much: First: they are incredible air fighters. SideB lets Byleth swat projectiles or edgeguard attempts away, as well as edgeguard. You already talked about upB, but you get hit by pretty much anything from Byleth offstage you just die. I have won random matches by just camping ledge, baiting them to come offstage or too close and outrange them if they try to edge guard or ledge trap me. I feel like this trick is silly and top players wouldn't fall for it, but it shows how Byleth has the upper hand on the air and some characters just can't do much about it. There is also how good at juggling they are, but most people already talk about it. Secondly: their slowness doesn't really matter. Larry talked about it but just to add to it, I never had a problem hitting people. You can force them to approach and outrange them to punish or just simply spam nair if you're getting overwhelmed by speed, and dealing with campers is not that problematic because of arrows and sideB. The biggest issue with slow characters is the inability to follow up for combos, but Byleth doesn't really have that problem, especially at high percents where everything kills or can be followed up from nair. Lastly, people can't actually run from you or dribble you around because you're much deadlier than them offstage and your range doesn't allow them to jump over you or to platforms for free. You can see it in all Leo games, you can't camp Byleth. Edit: Byleth is not as heavy as I thought, lmao
Uncivil Ninja vs MKLeo game 2 showed that you can camp Byleth, but it's not free. Also, Byleth is as heavy as Luigi (lighter than Mario), so he's midweight and not really what you'd call heavy.
Really? I was told he was heavy, maybe I always felt he was heavy too, especially because it's so easy to reach high percentages against most characters. I'll edit the post.
@@rafaelbordoni516 It's because he has good weight while also having a crazy recovery so you'll most of the time be living much longer than most characters at his weight class
Why weren't more people saying this during quarantine? The character always had that Up B and that N-air. What happened that suddenly everyone says he's VERY good?
Leo starting beating everyone with a mid tier and no one wants to accept that Leo is just that much better than everyone else at the moment. Though tbf mid tiers in this game are actually good and decently viable characters unlike previous smash games where everyone other than top tiers were trash
@@Warrior10223 Actually, it's worse than just Leo being good. People just don't want to admit they don't have Byleth knowledge and made mistakes. We're in a competitive environment and people don't want to look weak. So a lot don't easily come out saying they loss because they lacked knowledge, did some things wrong or played badly for a match or two. The latter two definitely shown when multiple people faced Leo. Dabuz's Rosa could've easily won and he was actually doing well but fumbled when he really shouldn't have. JDizzles Young Link could have definitely won if he used more arrows throughout the set. Kola autopiloted/assumed a lot, rushed in often with less intention to react and didn't react properly while recovering.
@@fortressofsolitude2960 By 1 weight value, which is very insignificant. And that still puts Byleth in the top half of the cast for weight, at 37th. As I said, not a superheavy, or even a heavy, but he won't be dying super early like Sephiroth or Fox. He often lives to higher percents through his recovery, too. Belmonts weigh more than Byleth but you see them die at a much lower percent due to their bad recovery. All together it results in a character who doesn't die off of like 2-3 bad interactions, which leaves the player with more room to make errors.
Interestingly enough, Corrin is heavier than Byleth also by 1 weight value; it just doesn't really seem like Byleth is as light as they actually are given their ground and air speed.
I think Byleth may have the hardest spiking down air on the game. It kills on the level at 125 and up to 150 on heavies. It's also insane with shield damage.
I don't believe Byleth is a top tier character either, but at this stage of the game, it would be ignorant to not call Byleth at least a high tier. Their matchup spread is quite solid and they either beat or do fine versus most characters, only having a harder time versus very fast rushdown characters due to lack of mobility and landing options. He does well versus most zoners with the exception of Min Min (although she got nerfed so she is less common). The only matchups that feel close to impossible are Pikachu, Min Min, and Sonic, and everyone else feels doable which is why Leo uses Byleth against everyone else. A character only having a few bad matchups doesn't make them tournament unviable, they can still do well versus a majority and use a secondary versus a few of them. A truly mid tier character wouldn't be able to win versus half the characters in the current meta consistently
How could you make a video about Byleth without talking about his best move?!?! His down b kills at 50% AND it has a HUGE radius! Definitely the second best move in the game besides warlock punch.
Definitely not his best move in my opinion. You've got down tilt, nair, forward air, up b. They all contribute hugely.... Perhaps the nair and forward air are the best. Up is sooooo broken though
Byleth is only in this "top tier" discussion because Leo keeps winning with Byleth so people are only now trying to look at the good in Byleth lol. If not for that, Byleth wouldn't ever be mentioned.
100% the truth. Anything that guy plays immediately becomes suddenly “super strong top tier.” I remember when he first picked up Byleth I looked over to my friend and literally said “in before he starts winning because he’s Leo and everyone starts crying that Byleth is sleeper top tier and they knew it all along.” I saw this guy take down an online tourney with Greninja during original lockdown and it was literally the same shit. Leo is just a monster can’t people just admit it. Like when was the last time we even saw a Joker win shit?
I mean duh, that's how it should be, Leo has advanced the character to a point where it is a major tournament threat, it doesn't matter what people thought in the past as there's now irrefutable data that Byleth is a character that's very solid and can win tournaments, passing up this adavancements in the meta cuz in the past peeps thought Byleth was shit is ignorant to the current meta
@@skellez @alex snook yeah, if he picked up a "bottom tier" character and started winning, that character would all of the sudden be in the running for a top tier title haha
Hey I was wondering why more pros don't use moves that stall their decent when recovering against the bow. Idk if whiffing roy's side B will help him to float long enough to avoid it, but other characters surely have the options that they can mix up besides wasting an air dodge. Any thoughts ?
For example, Ik when I play byleth diddos, I like to use the little hop from the Up B to avoid getting hit by the arrow off stage, and after I still have time to jump and recover
@@light_skit I don't expect them be God, though I feel like changing your momentum would be an important option when recovering, not something to gloss over. I was legitimately wondering if there was an actual reason, like maybe it puts them in a bad position, or something, or maybe Roy's side B doesn't stop him like marth's, idk I don't play Roy. Also, It's been a thing in every smash game since melee, I'm sure they've discovered it. I do this with ken's hadouken and focus attack a lot too, and I'm definitely no pro.
Leo is also really good with tippers and then there's the grab combos even the occasional down throw back air kill confirm or a good 18-20% off a throw combo
That up B spike is just brutal! I haven’t really watched any top players use Byleth, he/she in the right match ups is ridiculous. Also Kola really needs to stop with the approach from off stage. The arrow isn’t that hard to air dodge. I think taking a change coming in high is better than just getting spiked over and over
Stop recovering low versus him if all he does is drop down up B. Roy could have just jumped straight into the stage without fastfalling or used airdodge (time it vs the expected Up B), you need mix ups.
edgeguarding is such an important part of ultimate and you can't really do it to Byleth that easy, that's why Leo is unbeatable still, also Leo's ledgetrap is second to none and the character can take a lot of stocks early.
@@pistarrafernandez9830 this is the comment of a person who doesn't want h much lmao. He's been duffed offstage before, he just rarely loses so a guy like you who's only saw it because he lost makes your comment. Byleth has been exploited off stage (yes Leo's) it's just hard to send a character consistently horizontal off stage. Unless you're a character like Pikachu or Rob who can push them out and still safely recover.
1st year of ultimate: man Ike is top tier that character is so OP, fast forward a year after Leo dropped him, some ppl think he’s mid tier now. Just after Joker dropped, most ppl considered him to be high tier, MKleo starts winning with him and wow Joker so op top 3 character in the game. We’ve done this song and dance twice before. Nobody was able to do what Leo did with either Ike or Joker, so no chance in hell anybody is gonna replicate his byleth
Ike was an aberration, that was like 2 months into the game’s life and there are definitely other top tier Lucinas and Jokers. Obviously they didn’t match Leo, but they had success, there are also a couple Byleth’s in Japan that are on the rise.
@@median99 true but people still think Joker is top 2 in the game. Who is winning with Joker atm? Where are the results? I think the reality is that the game is pretty well balanced overall. I do think Leo could still win with Ike if he tried as well with Lucina and Wolf. Marth not so much but it is possible if he avoids the bad match ups.
@@LoadedKlip thank you! Been sayin this to goofs. Ain’t no joker in sight right now but he was the “best” character in the game. All of a sudden there is no joker in any recent top 8s. People don’t give Leo enough credit. It’s kind of frustrating lol
The “nobody else has been able to” argument is such a dead horse and is completely invalid in a game with over 80 characters. You simply *cant* have every good character in this game consistently winning majors because theres simply not enough top players to play them all.
First time I tried Byleth, I legit thought it's the worst Character of the Roaster. Even after 6 Months of Playing him/her. Why? Byleth is incredible slow. A huge flaw in Ultimate. Byleth has shiit framedata. But she was fun. Because her hitboxes are so satisfying. So I played her more and more. Then she got buffed. Then I watched Leo. And Tutorials. Byleth got some nasty combos. All in all her damage output is huge and her killpower is insane. And she has very powerful kill confirms. But she still has a poor frame data and overall is just too slow. I honestly think that Byleth is carried by MkLeo. And that the gaps between all characters are not as big, as many Pros think... MkLeo could play any character of the roaster - and after moths of practice he could win any major with him/her. Byleth is my main now, because I discovered the fun in her. But still - many characters are naturally better. And you, the player, must be really good to "kill" her huge disadvantages. Picking Mythra and Pyra would be a much easier win...:D
@@tsubaki_perle7500 but that is so much easier said than done. Byleths tether is unique in that it can go *incredibly* low. Wolf can not meaningfully threaten that if byleth has resources.
@@AbeDorf18 if she has, as a Byleth main, I know that a good Wolf will make me lose my ressources, and after double jump is gone, her broken tether just become a REALLY good vertical recovery, but if there isn't big walls, like PS2, or SV, she won't make it back
People saying he can't be a good character because only one player performs with them are such clowns lmao. Why is there only one Pikachu/Shulk/Fox/Sora and (ex) PT top player when these characters are high/top tiers?
There's actually multiple Fox players, Light, Pasariman, Jill, Lui$. Esam's played Pikachu for Years; I mean over a decade. It's not a character for everyone. But Byleth is a different circumstance. If Leo wasn't playing Byleth, no one would care about him. His Up B mechanic would be as relevant as Falcos side B spiking. All the characters you mentioned, people actually say their good despite their being numerous players, because of frame data a good match ups. Remember, Leo was the same guy killing everyone with Ike. IKE!
People overrate how important mobility actually is in ultimate. The community is an echo chamber with opinions andso many characters get overlooked or underlooked.Byleth another example of most of the community being wrong about characters in the game. Still waiting for people to realize cloud sucks.
@@lokks2130 Well to each their own i say. Cloud just has some very bad hitboxes and his crosslash is easily punishable even limit crosslash. bair is more honest looking every day to me . Fair is kinda busted i will say but cloud is just too honest and finishing touch doesn't kill well if you di it. Cloud sux imho. He has good mobility a safe bair and fair but lacks a good oos option, a good set of kill confirms and a good recovery and his disadvantage is actually really bad without limit. This is why i say cloud sucks.
some of the shit you said is just straight up wrong lol, cloud has superb out of shield (up+b) and if fair is busted I see no reason why back air isn't absolutely silly. shits just a less laggy palu bair i don't see why limit cross slash being punishable makes it less broken either, it comes out so fast and it's massive. the risk reward is so in his favour, not hard to just pick ur spots cloud has no problems killing regardless of lacking confirms since most of his moves kill + limit + surprisingly good edgeguarding. that dude is broken. recovery and grab seem to be his only flaws, and ig he has a few underwhelming moves (still "good" if you know how to use them)
@@lokks2130 Up b out of shield is free to punish and everything i said is right lol. Sorry but if you play against decent people they start to punish up b out of shield by di and sdi out of it. his kill confirms is super lackluster. recovery is rough and limit side b can be parried easily its called there is too long a pause between the second to last and last hit that you can roll, spotdodge and parry limit crossslash and crosslash free if he uses it against your shield. His back air isn't silly. There are far more egregious hitboxes and moves being punishabel makes them far from broken and the risk reward isn't there its all risk for little reward. I say Fair is kinda busted for cloud cause before 70 percent or even 70 on some characters you can cheese stocks form 20-40 percent with stuff like fair dair and fair fair but thats as far as cloud cheese goes. You are extremely overrating cloud man. Everyone is to be honest. Cloud is not good in ultimate. Cloud is too honest of a character to be good and people still let him get aways with some very punishable stuff like letting him recover and letting him crosslash on shield and not using di when hit with some of his kill moves leading to their deaths earlier than they should be losing a stock from cloud. Cloud really isn't good in ultimate otherwise if he was most cloud mains wouldn't have dropped him and even spargo plays aegis more now. Cloud isn't good in ultimate. Raw kill moves are not as great as consistent kill confirms and never will be. In ultimate in order for a character to be good they need great oos options, a great advantage state and combo game, a disadvantage state that allows them to escape some scenarios easier, a great recovery, great framedata and also a good neutral and a cheater mechanic of some sort cause none of the high tiers and top tiers are honest in ultimate. Cloud has only like 1 or 2 of these things. Clouds kill power without limit is also horrible and you can live against back air up to 140% depending on the side blastzones but FD you can easily do that as mario even. Cloud's kill power even with raw hits is actually abysmal compared to other high and top tiers. If you wanna think a bad character is busted go right ahead. its your opinion at the end of the day but i will stick to my analytical reasons and belief he is not good in ultimate.
As a Byleth main, yea he's got some good tools. I wouldn't see him as a really good character but I'm not a competitive player. I just enjoy playing him.
Byleth is my secondary I have fun with the character I agree he has good tools but I don’t think they are as high on the tier list as people think maybe top 25-30.
@@senpaifear6293 agreed. His slowness was definitely something I had to get used to when I first started playing him because I used to main Link before maining Byleth.
@@fluffydemon1 that’s a big difference LMAO, byleth felt pretty natural to me because my main is inkling. The similarities in their play-styles is you don’t always want to approach with them a lot of the time. But byleth is getting the dlc treatment where if they are a dlc they got to be broken. Byleth just seems broken cause mkleo plays them. It takes the right player to play byleth to a top level.
People pretending that there aren't nearly 90 characters in this game and Byleth was one of the least liked newcomers, of course he was going to be underdeveloped and would have remained so without a top player representative.
Tbh the only swordie that byleth loses to is shulk, because he is has better range (except byleths spear moves), out neutrals byleth with speed art and his range (except byleths spear moves), out damages byleth, is one of the characters that don't have that hard of a time edgeguarding byleth (even after the dial glitch got patched) due to fair and air slash (shulks up b) send at good angles that make byleth hard to recover, abuses byleths disadvantage better than byleth can abuse shulks disadvantage, out lives byleth (due to shield art), byleths down tilt to up smash or up air don't work due to shield art (most of byleths multi hit kill confirms don't work on shulk), and shulk can just keep byleth away from him which does make it hard for byleth and also is good at anti airing byleth due to shulks nair covering his entire body and its range.
Byleth has one of the the best recoveries in the game. ZSS might still be #1 but Brawler and Gunner are definitely up there with certain movesets. Their projectiles are amazing at protecting them while returning to stage. ZSS has quicker moves and is better at recovering below the ledge, but Brawler and Gunner have more versatile recoveries and can fly across the whole stage while pelting the opponent with projectiles. Also Brawler has crazy reverse edgeguarding potential and can just kill you at 0% with a few of their specials. Pac-Man's is a bit overrated imo.. But it's still really good and lets him go deeper to edgeguard than anyone else. Nobody even tries to figure out how to edgeguard him. His Up B only has super armor and high knockback after he eats the pellet so there's a pretty big window where you can hit him. It's also pretty easy to break the trampoline if he has to recover low and he can't when bouncing off it.
I would also say m2 has a great recovery when factoring his double jump as well, the character can make it from anywhere offstage as long as he has jump and telport.
The reason people lose against Leo's Byleth is because at some point they psych themselves out of playing their character to their full potential. That's either because their too scared or too complacent. Basically, assessing respect incorrectly and then picking wrong options. In JDizzle's match against Leo during SWT, JD should've been using more of Young Link's arrows straight out of the gate. He would've staggered Leo's approach consistently and gotten way more hits as well as kills that way. We seen that on his last match on Kalos. Kola autopiloted/assumed too much. He started rushing in too often with less intention to react and didn't react correctly offstage while recovering. I main Marth and I'd only lose exchanges to Byleth when I assume too much, rush in carelessly and don't react properly. Sword characters are all about having the cleanest exchanges possible. Anathema should have been using more Gyro's throughout the set and simply reacting to Leo. Ana was getting kills on Leo but Ana's R.O.B could've easily played more annoyingly. Dabuz started retreating too much and would start jumping, shielding or incorrectly attacking when he could have gotten easy punishes up close. Rosaluma easily can control the stage and the pace in this MU; which Dabuz was doing consistently but he kept fumbling just as much. Cosmos started to play Pyra too much and lost patience as Mythra. He started getting caught doing clearly wrong things upclose to Leo as well as around the ledge when on offense and defense. I play Aegis sometimes and believe it or not, you have to treat them like any other sword character. If you aren't trying to get clean hits, you get hit and can easily lose no matter how good the character is. Mind you, Byleth is one of the 10 slowest characters in the game and their frame data is like a mix between Marth and Pyra; which is average at best and questionable. Despite their lengthy moves it isn't hard to get in and she has a pretty whack projectile. If your character isn't below average in ground speed, they always have to react to you. It's either A) You get to center stage, they start mashing attacks and you block/dodge > punish. Or B) they wait too long for an opening, move incorrectly > punish. Unless you get hit by arrow or don't approach. Byleth gets hit once and is on the ropes immediately for the entire match or dead. People are in the mind state of "if I manage to hit you with absurdity when you mess up despite my main having terrible flaws, my main is good". It's the logic that makes people think Falco is high tier and makes Ganon FEEL more rewarding than Captain Falcon. That's why people think Byleth is great and that's partially Ultimates fault cause of its design.
Once again, I’ve told people that Byleth was a problem when they came out and now I’m glad you you made this video because people try to justify Byleth being mid-tier by saying their slow and frame data is not good. Like i always say, they’re slow because their range and kill power is insane. Their moves are safe against most characters when spaced and like Larry said you mix up the timings. Off stage nearly nothing you can do to get back or stop them from coming back unless you have a specific character or you just catch the Byleth slipping. People need to focus more on what kinda situations Byleth can put you in over the characters stats (speed/frame data). If you did make this character fast, that’ll probably instantly make them top tier so people please stop complaining about Byleth being slow
Let's not forget that after Byleth was released, Ultimate got a patch that made shield bigger for many rosters, showing how threatening Byleth shield break / punish game.
@@xzgears929 mid tiers don't solo majors and near-solo supermajors with nearly as much consistency as byleth has, even in the hands of the best player in the world. Ike was only that consistent at the very start of the game because he's an easy character to pick up and be successful with whose meta optimized faster than most other characters, there's a reason we barely saw mkleo play ike after the very beginning of competitive ssbu. Byleth on the other hand is here to stay, and is still mkleo's ace character undoubtedly. Even with all that being said I still wouldn't call byleth top tier, but he's clearly a good character, and ultimate is balanced enough that just being a good character is good enough to win even at the highest level of play. Mkleo himself thinks of the character as being top 25 material, and I'd far sooner believe his judgment of the character than any random youtube commenter's.
Down B and fully charged neutral B are garbo lmao. As for real moves, downsmash is still pretty lack luster especially when you consider the downair buffs. Other than that though yeah her kit is extraordinarily solid. Upair, nair, fair, and bair are all in contention for top 5 in their respective class honestly. And the tilts are all incredibly useful. Like people talk about roy/chrom ftilt all the time, byleths is the same speed and bigger with better safety when spaced at the expense of a bit of kill power. But that makes it great for ledge trapping.
Pessimistic Byleth main. I think Byleth is good, but saying they're top tier is kinda goofy lol. Leo is literally the only person doing stuff with the char and that's cause he's Leo
Byleth is high mid tier, but the game is very well balanced so MKLeo can win with Byleth. People are crazy to think Byleth is a top character. It’s just because Leo is that good. Byleth has virtually no other results in competitive play. Nothing against the character of course. It’s just a majority of the cast is able to be very successful in competitive play. The character diversity in the game is unlike no other fighting game, especially considering there are 80+ characters
@@trombonegamer14 I said no OTHER results. I acknowledged MKLeo's results with Byleth. But other than MKLeo, Byleth has bottom 20% results in competitive play
The title of this video surprised me, considering that in your video of “One Thing I Hate About Every Smash Ultimate Character,” you said the thing you hated about Byleth was his and her inclusions in the game
One can not like a character's inclusion but still compliment the attributes and moveset that said character has. Of course, there are instances in which the attributes and moveset of a character can be the reasoning for one to dislike a character, as was the case for many people with Bayonetta during Super Smash Bros. for 3DS/WiiU.
The title of this video makes me sick. Smash players and community member are sooooo bad at determining a characters viability. For the longest time, no one has been able to shut up about how byleth is bad and mkleo only wins because he's good. And now it's, Hur dur, I guess they are good cuz they win too much to be bad. It's so biased. Same with melee. Pretty sure there a few more top tiers in that game that people done recognize.
imagine being upset that people are willing to change their minds when there is evidence to indicate they were wrong. I'm not sure why any of this indicates bias. Also, there's a huge difference between a character moving up the tier list in a game that is only a few years old and was still getting regular balance patches, and finding a new top tier in melee, a 20 year old game with no balance patches. also, "the title of this video makes me sick" really? get over yourself.
@@Nick_2i Lol yeah maybe it was a bit much saying it made me sick haha. I do think though that people are extremely poor at determining character viability in general, and that their determinations are usually based on shallow information. E.g. which character is winning to most right now? This one? They must be broken. That seems to me to be the mindset that most people have when it comes to smash games. Same thing occurred in melee. Remember puff?
@@sebastiansullivan4770 You're definitely right that people have a very short memory in regards to character viability. It's definitely weird seeing peach go from top 3, to top 5, to top 10 and even lower now that there isn't much (any?) top level representation. It's tough to say whether the community is actually bad at determining character viability, or if it really is just down to the meta being fluid in the early years of the game. It also doesn't help that the online era completely threw off everyone's concept of viability and tiers for a while. but yeah, I definitely agree that byleth in particular is an especially egregious example of a community wide overreaction also, sorry for being aggro in my first comment for literally no reason lmao
@@Nick_2i No problem I kinda get why you reacted that way. "The title of this video makes me sick" LMAO. That's genuinely funny in retrospect. I agree it's hard to say. These days I've kinda been on the Pyra/Mythra are the absolute best. But we are yet to see dominating results.
Great video, I agree the character is very good. But Leo never said Byleth is top tier. Only as a meme, he says the character is high tier. I still think eventually people will understand the matchup more and they'll realize whilst he is still very good, there are clear weaknesses with him. The smash community tends to be extreme with opinions on cases like this and the divide ends up being that the character is either broken or trash. Happened with Sheik and Sephiroth, it's happening now.
Byleth is a mediocre character. At best they are mid high tier. mkleo does not call byleth top tier. Byleth being slow absolutely matters for getting camped
Byleth is definitely somewhere in high tier. Being a swordie with a good burst option in dash attack, solid OOS with n-air and up-b, and throw combos until high percents is really nice.
Range is fantastic as well. That is a big part of his viability imo
Dash attack isn't that good of a burst option since it doesn't cross up shields like other ones. Also throw combos until high percents?? The only one that applies to is dthrow and that's only on DI in, and only if by "high percents" you mean like, 80%-90%
Nair and UpB are good oos options but they're also f9, which is just a tiny bit on the slow side in this game. Consider chars like Ness, Palu, Peach, ZSS, Pac, Cloud, or Min Min who all have faster and still also very solid oos. Byleth's oos def isn't bad, but it's not amazing either. Imo it's between average and good
@@IndigoStarturds byleth has down throw bait which kills, byleth’s kill power is kind of crazy so that’s probably what they meant
@@IndigoStarturds Byleth oos isnt that worse than Min Min's lol.
Min Min oos only comes out 1 frame faster XD
I just think Byleth has good oos because it has decent range.
Byleth top tier imo
Something a lot of people aren't aware of is that Byleth's UpB will prioritize grabbing the ledge over grabbing characters *unless Byleth has already grabbed the ledge once*. At 14:28 you said that Leo missed up and meant to grab Kola. While that is probably true, since Leo hadn't grabbed the ledge yet, it automatically snapped to the ledge and ignored Kola.
This also happened vs Chag at Port Priority 6. Leo tried to do utilt UpB which is normally a guaranteed combo at low-mid %s. However, since he jumped up and just *barely* went over the edge, UpB grabbed the ledge from basically straight up above it instead of Palu and put Leo in a bad situation that directly led to him losing his stock from 53. It happens at 4:42 of the vod and I recommend checking it out because it's way easier to see than to read it, and is a great example of how UpB's auto-tether can work against you not that infrequently.
Another way to have UpB actually grab people is to be out of its ledge detection range, but that would mean dropping super low and is riskier than just putting yourself in a regrab situation.
Also, UpB sometimes freaks out if it's at a certain distance where it can both grab a person or just barely tether the ledge, and it'll fail lol
#heDidTheResearch
Últimate has a thing where you cant regrab ledge if a second hasnt pass thats why if you let go of ledge and up B it will always go for the character because you cant grab ledge
It has to do with the regrab timer and not if he's already grabbed the ledge once
interesting info, thanks. This make me wonder if its possible to use tether cancel to control this behavior
@@wsetws tether cancel does not affect the regrab timer, which lasts ~30 frames after dropping from ledge.
Leo has progressed so much with Byleth, who currently looks more dangerous than his Joker in his glory days, it's ironic, Leo used Joker and people said he was the best in the game and now that he uses Byleth they say he's just Leo, assuming that Byleth is mediocre as many assure then Joker is High tier for having bad options outside the shield.
Leo himself said his peak joker was his best character
@@voodooedits785 I said that he currently looked, not that he was, also that he said in September, I do not doubt that he will use Joker again and stand out as before, but currently his Joker is rusty.
If quarantine didn’t happen I think Leo would still be maining joker. Joker is similar to pika and shiek in that online they are nerfed and significantly harder to play. Joker is such a hard character to tier because of Arsene, obviously with arsene activated he’s the best character but that’s like 30-40% of the time so it’s tough. Imo joker is slightly better than byleth but it’s a lot closer than some realize.
Nah Leo has his moments of looking so vulnerable with his Byleth due to certain matchups. His prime Joker was definitely better.
@@percy3422 I agree with I think, but reminder he lost to Esam twice with joker, and the kurama / prodigy set against Mario with joker.
When Byleth was released, the community was desperate to hate him. They overlooked the potential, but when the best player in the world says the character is good, that’s worth noticing. Glad Leo has been able to prove everyone wrong!
i know right, I played three house first. so when I saw she/he was announced I was happy and decided to main them. At first I thought they were not too good, but I was playing her wrong. now everyone is like she's op and stuff. makes you wonder who else could be better then was people think?
@@sniperalexander248 Yeah! The meta is still so young when compared to Melee, so there are a bunch of characters with the potential to shine that we just haven't seen yet! It makes it really exciting to follow this game's competitive scene.
Character is still just a self insert OC, just like corrin and robin
@@babytricep437 So is Cloud and people love him what’s your point you weirdo lol
@@babytricep437 Hero is the most self insert chara on this entire roster, I fail to see what you mean with this useless comment
I always thought Byleth was kinda silly when he first came out and buffing up b to make it faster just made them so much better
Buffing Up B made them official Ultimate DLC lol. I play Byleth and Cloud. I was very happy with the Byleth buffs. I'll take the Cloud ones. Finishing Touch buff isn't that easy to take advantage of.
Imagine if Leo started playing dr mario and people started saying things like "maybe he IS high tier, I mean down b lets him get out of so many situations and edguard most of the cast for free"
I believe it would happen
I’m convinced that high-mid-low tiers are different per individual player. Some characters just fit a players preferred playing style, etc… sure there’s some generally high and low characters, but lots and lots of gray area depending on who is playing and that persons individual strength / weakness as player.
true
I just love void's reaction when leo wins the grand final with that up b
Another reason byleth is solid and not a lot of people think about is that all his moves just work. Theres no falling out of smash attacks, hit boxes clanking in weird ways, multi hits just dropping.
All of his moves consistently work and if anything are way more generous than they seem
(Up-bs recovery/grab range)
Riddles said this 3 weeks ago on Twitter
Like word for word
@@lay-lowandsmash1519 well lmao I dont know how to feel about that, maybe I saw the tweet and forgor
@@unidentified4122 possibly.
Good day to ya
Which characters would you say have moves that don't work?
@@sebastiansullivan4770 pit, especially his nair
it's the Leo effect. Leo could pick up an obscure midtier like Toon Link and within a week people would be crying about how broken bair is and he needs a nerf.
Well, Toon link may be a bit too low.
But any character like sheik, cloud, falcon, luigi, Bowser, Pit, Falco, Sonic, Hero, Banjo, characters in that kinda range.
Ones that are on the boarder between Upper-mid tier and low-high tier. In the like 30-50 best character range. Characters that arent bad but just arent as strong as the main High tiers or Top tiers.
Toon link is a liiiiitle low on that list, he isnt as good as the upper-mid tiers. But who knows, maybe Leo could do that too.
Don't think the Leo effect changes whether or not the tools are good. Byleth has kill confirms out the ass. That's not a matter of Leo being good with the character as much as it is a part of their kit. Take Captain Falcon (mind the profile pic hahaah) who would be broken having his Knee and Falcon punch if he could confirm into them consistently, has a lack of other reliable kill moves and OOS options. Also, it's usually a guessing game therein: if I get the dair onstage, I still have to guess their DI or my knee doesn't land. As far as I'm aware, Byleth's confirms are very forgiving for how rewarding they are. Even if they weren't, he can kill with all but 1 tilt iirc, dash attack, fair, bair, up air, neutral b, side b, and down b. In the grand scheme of things, if he hits you, you're in trouble--it's only a matter of percent.
Throw in his OOS option on top and versatile coverage moves like side-b and neutral b, he's a good character. The Leo effect brought it to light, I definitely agree. But I thought it was strange early on how people kept calling the character bad because they weren't like other swordies immediately out the box. Leo effect shut them the hell up.
But he doesn't make the character.
@@romeospells2487 A good deal of Byleth's confirms arent guaranteed either and are DI dependent, but even so, it takes a lot more than just having kill confirms to be good.
I mean look at DK, that character kills like its nobody's business. He has true kill confirms off grab on every character in the game in the 60-80% range. He has down b confirms, Giant punch, good raw kill power, back air, fantastic spikes, a great up air. In fact, DK probably has one of the best advantage states in the game. And yet he's not that good, and is stuck around mid tier or so if not lower. Why? Because he's bad in other ways. He's got one of the worst disadvantages in the game, his OOS isnt great, and his recovery leaves a lot to be desired.
Now, Byleth is the same. Byleth does have some fantastic tooks, good kill confirms, good general kill power, some decent combos. But Byleth struggles in a lot of other ways. Byleth's aerials arent the safest on shield, theyre safe enough but when compared to most high or top tiers, they arent nearly as safe. Byleth's nair for example is -11 on shield which can be shield grabbed by most characters. Byleth's OOS options are OK, but theyre far from amazing. Up B isnt the fastest at frame 9, and nair OOS is also frame 9. Byleth has no OOS option faster than frame 9 which means punishing characters with frame data like -5 through -8 on shield is very difficult, and that kind of frame data is common among the better characters in this game. thats not to say up b and nair OOS are BAD, they just arent as good as better OOS options that a good deal of better characters tend to have.
On top of that, byleth is SLOW. Byleth has pretty bad air and ground speed making it very hard for him to approach or keep up pressure or land or get out of strings. All of these things make byleth more exploitable. You brought up falcon, as a comparison, but Falcon is the 2nd fastest grounded character in the game, so he has plenty of positives over Byleth as well, its not just negatives.
And lastly, Byleth's frame data isnt the greatest. its not bad, but byleth has no super fast options with his fastest aerial being nair at frame 6, and nothing else is close. Now, this is mostly fine because Byleth is a swordie, so byleth likes to play the mid range which this frame data is pretty standard for, but the reason I bring this up is because it means that byleth can struggle a lot in the close range. If you're fighting a charcter like Fox for example, and he's rushing you down and getting close range to you over and over, a character like Byleth isnt going to be able to handle that very well. fox is just going to out frame data you pretty much no matter what you do. this is a weakness for Byleth. Byleth HAS to keep characters in the mid range because if they get too close, Byleth can struggle a lot, especially since Byleth doesnt have a ton of mobility to escape these types of situations.
Now, all that said, Byleth is still a pretty solid character. I personally rank him around as good as characters like Falcon, Cloud, Ike, Pichu, Sheik, Luigi, Bowser, etc. All of these characters have some very strong positives, and some negatives that prevent them from being high tier imo. These are all upper-mid tier characters who are just below high tier, but do have an argument for low-high tier.
So Byleth isnt a bad character. But he does lack some of the tools that much better characters in the High and Top tiers have. He has a few noticeable weaknesses that prevent him from being as good as the top 30 or so characters.
@@eragon78 A couple things.
1) I have no idea where this whole "DK has one of the best advantage states in the game" thing comes from. He definitely isn't bad if you have your bair strings solid but his down b is not reliable, giant punch is a read based tool/counter hit, and I'm a bit confused on this "true grab kill confirm" unless we're talking about ding dong on platforms on some stages. I wouldn't call that a true grab kill confirm. His up air is very good though. Donkey Kong in no way has the best advantage state in the game.
Donkey Kong isn't great because his advantage state isn't as good as it needs to be to make up for the things he's bad at. Combo food, and generally fairly slow (although he has a decent dash speed--but more on that later). There are plenty of characters with a better advantage state and even more devastating tools to capitalize on their advantage state (I do think Falcon is an easy upgrade on DK and characters like Roy, Mythra, Joker, and Peach all have a waaay better advantage state than DK). Mentioning Giant Punch, byleth has moves that hit arguably as hard without the need to charge them. Also, if frame data is your issue, Byleth has a frame 6 option in nair which doesn't have to be used on shield. You can make it safer with proper spacing and playing with the fast fall timing. Donkey Kong is lacking any decent OOS option except maybe down tilt. Short hop up air might be interesting too as a call out.
I know your argument wasn't specifically about Donkey Kong, but none of his moves are particularly good defensively outside of up air. He has some good spacing tools, but is actually less prepared in a scramble which is where Byleth's OOS nair excels. The fact that byleth has an OOS option that also acts as a solid kill confirm with reactable frame windows is why it's so good. My comparison to captain falcon was meant to illustrate that a lot of his kill confirms have windows that are pretty tight at mid percents when they start to kill. You have to guess or go for a reset. Byleth can react to you and will usually be safe even if they're off.
Also, on the subject of speed, calling falcon the 2nd fastest character is big misleading. This game is not about run speed. It's actually about dash speed as you don't often break out into full sprints from full stage. Falcon is actually only mid tier in his dash speed, with 30 characters above him. This is problematic for Falcon because if someone gets in on his shield he doesn't have very many good "Get off me tools." But also, if one of those characters decides to zone him, it can be pretty easy to alternate pressuring him and quickly distancing to whiff punish his attempt to swing from disadvantage. Characters like Greninja, Inkling, Wolf, and Falco do a pretty decent job at this. Falcon tends to be a character who relies on calling out his opponent as opposed to out boxing them for this reason--his grab range being so limited and his dash speed being middling means he's not as good at the rush down as he could be. As he should be.
Byleth doesn't really have to worry about this as they don't care if he's able to get in. Typically defensive Byleth with selective pressure from neutral-b works well on most of the cast. Nair stuffs aerial approaches like crazy and also grounded approaches unless your opponent properly spaces (drag down nair into grab combos make the situation even worse). Granted if you run forward and shield and the Byleth is just panic nairing, they'll be decently vulnerable, but -9 or -11 on shield isn't a huge gap. If you're frame perfect or expecting it, you can get a decent reward with characters like falco who have good combos from fast options like up tilt. But it's definitely not a lot for most characters at low percents.
Byleth doesn't have to chase you down. Spacing you out with Fair and bair can be enough to get you offstage where the ledge trapping becomes a big deal. Down smash and dair are actually good tools for conditioning your opponent not to shield because shield breaks into down b are devastating and frustrating if you keep holding shield. Just saying, Byleth is arguably the best character in the game for shield breaks which mitigates the lack of safety on shield to a degree. Neither you nor the opponent want you hitting their shield.
Moral of the story is that not all elements of a character's gameplay are equally weighted. Byleth doesn't need speed to run away from faster characters. Nair will stuff sloppy approaches AND can net you kills, tech chases, and combos very consistently. They have 4 moves to shield break you with, and their aerials can wall you out with ease. Don't even get me started on up air. For how vulnerable slow characters typically are to being chased down, Byleth has insane kill power while also having a defensive option that is equal to Bowser's up b out of shield but 3 times as safe on shield. Like I just don't get how people complain about Bowser's OOS option when you get hard punishes on him if you shield (and also he isn't kill confirming off of up b either), but don't see how nair ties Byleth's incredible kit together. You're not supposed to get in, but they've got an answer if you do.
They're a good character man.
@@romeospells2487
Ding Dong is true on basically every stage. Just watch Chunky Kong play or something. Grab at 70 and most characters are in range for ding dong on a platform and are dead. And nearly every stage in the game has platforms. The only stage that doesnt is FD. All DK has to do is grab you, walk to a platform, and then Ding Dong you.
And DK's advantage state IS fantastic. His up air is fantastic at covering landings, his bair strings incredibly easily and its fast, down B covers tech options and can even break shields, Aerial Down B is -4 on shield making it very safe and its a kill confirm at like 60, Giant Punch is literally like a top 20 move in the game, it has super armor grounded, but its pretty fast and incredibly strong as well as very safe to throw out so even if you miss or hit a shield youre usually fine. DK's F tilt 2 frames quite well, and he can also 2 frame spike you, Dash attack covers tech options or landings, Again, because grab is a kill confirm, its always a VERY dangerous threat (not to mention he can just cargo throw you off stage. Plus, Cargo throw up throw just flat out kills at like 130-150% on most characters with a platform).
DK literally does have one of the best advantage states in the game. Id probably say its top 15 or so. He has every tool he needs to pressure basically every character in every form of disadvantage, and he can very easily kill any character in disadvantage against him. And dont get me wrong, I do think Byleth is a lot better than DK. I am just using DK as an example to show that a character with good kill options doesnt mean theyre automatically good. I mean, at the very least, DK has a better advantage state than Byleth does, and he has better kill confirms too, yet he's a worse character.
Also, Byleth's neutral B is not good. Its not terrible, but its pretty slow and has a consistent timing when it actually fires making it pretty easy to dodge or shield. Yes, Byleth can cancel it, but because the timing is ALWAYS the same, you can just ignore the threat of it until it WOULD fire. If a byleth is doing a neutral B, thats a free indentation to just run up and close the distance against byleth. The main time Byleth's neutral B is good is for sniping people off stage but thats about it.
Also, -11 on shield is frame grabbable by any character with a 6 or 7 frame grab, which is like 70% of the cast. And you can buffer the grab OOS on reaction ot the nair hitting your shield. And -9 TECHNICALLY isnt frame grabbable, its ONLY -9 if you perfectly space it, and perfectly time it with the last hitbox and land on the first possible frame. And even then, you still get true grabbed OOS because byleth has no frame 1 option that dodges grab. The fastest option you can do is a spot dodge which doesnt come out till frame 4. So every character in the game with a normal (non-tether/long) grab can frame grab byleth's nair OOS on reaction. And thats not even including other potential faster OOS options that many characters have.
Also, Nair only stuffs things sometimes. Its frame 6 which is OK speed, but it doesnt have the longest range, which means it can easily be swatted away with a disjoint. On top of that, nair last for a long time so if you preemptively nair and your opponent backs off, they can get a whiff punish in. I do this all the time when I fight nair happy Byleths, its pretty easy to punish if you bait it.
Also, byleth's inability to approach DOES come into several match ups. If you're fighting a zoner for example, it can be tricky to approach without speed, and byleth will never beat a zoner with her neutral B because neutral B is far too easy to react to. Now thats not to say byleth is bad vs zoners, but it just shows in yet another way where speed comes into play. And again, speed also comes into play in disadvantage. Having poor air mobility makes it harder to land or dodge.
Also, people complain about Bowser's up B OOS because its frame 6 and does a ton of damage. YOU CAN NOT PUNISH IT if you land on his shield with an unsafe move and he up B OOS you. Yea, a bad bowser who throws out up B OOS on a -3 aerial where you can just shield it will get punished. But if you land on bowser's shield with any move that is -6 or worse, then he can TRUE punish you with up B OOS. Thats why people complain, because a lot of moves are not -5 or better on shield. And even moves that are like -5 or -4, theyre only safe if you land within a frame or two of the move hitting his shield, and they arent stale. Byleth's up B OOS on the other hand is frame 9. Thats a LOT slower. its 50% slower than Bowser's. A lot more moves are -8 or faster on shield, especially from good characters which means theyre safe against byleth.
That is why people complain about Bowser's Up b OOS and not really Byleths. That 3 frame difference matters a lot. A LOT more moves are -8 or faster than there are -5 or faster moves. Plus, Byleth's range on her up B is a lot worse too, even if you space well on bowser's shield, his up B can move a bit so he can still scoop you up even if you spaced well. If you space well on byleth's shield, he wont be able to up B OOS you. He can maybe get a nair OOS, but not an up B which is the one thats actually scary. Like, when I play Ridley against Byleth, im never scared of up B OOS because I always space my aerials. But against Bowser, even if I space my aerials, he will still scoop me up with his up B OOS.
And again, im not saying Byleth is bad, Byleth is a pretty solid character. I just dont think Byleth is as good as characters like, Sonic, Olimar, Diddy, Ken, Megaman, Lucina, Samus, Ness, or all the other characters I consider high tier. These characters all also have broken options just like Byleth, but tend to have better overall kits with less noticeable weaknesses. If Byleth is a high tier, he's on like the lower end of high tier.
Byleth is deceptively "weak". He might be slow but he has tether grab which can kill/punish easily, so his vertical pressure is strong and hella scary off stage. A lot of his moves are long range (hence distance demon). If you try to kill him outside stage he can tether grab or most likely hit you before you hit him, especially with that nasty side special with vertical and horizontal range. He has a fat arrow he can cancel that keeps the pressure on even from long distance, and can pressure your opponents to do something punishable. He can also break shield easily with down smash/dair or shield poke with nair, which can become easy kill confirms. Byleth is also not so technically hard so a lot of his confirms are easy to pull off making him deadly consistent. Byleth is one hella of a drug...
Also I hate that people use Ike as an example of this just being Leo. Ike was op because no one knew how to play the game yet so Ike could get away with a lot of stupid bullshit. it hadn't been out that long and Leo dropped him when people started figuring shit out. Leo doesn't seem to want to drop byleth anytime soon but is aware that some matchups will be painful if he only goes byleth.
I think this discussion is interesting because even really good players are torn on Byleth. Byleth is a very cool character and I'm glad Leo is smacking people around with him lol
I whole heartedly agree with this comment. Byleth is really only scary if the player knows what they are doing. Hence the discussion of his spot. If you can abuse his strengths with ledge guarding and pressure he is a good character but if you can’t recover properly with him or use him to his full utility he’ll look like every other tether recovery character take their jump to gimp them and just zone.
Pretty much.
He was controversial the moment he got announced.
One thing you forgot to mention since this is a very niche reason why Byleth UpB is also good, You can't tech it, even if you get stage-spiked based on certain angles. It's literally impossible.
At low percent its teachable any where between 50-85% is teachable on platform
@@LostCauseAJ What about off stage?
@@LostCauseAJ false
@@LostCauseAJ that is completely false info
Might as well delete this false comment, cause not only have i teched it, I've seen it teched when I did it to someone else. Timing is just unreal. I don't even think I did it on purpose tbh lol
I remember byleths launch, when everyone put him super low, and as soon as Leo does well its immediately a top tier.
Everyone slept on byleths since release, glad to see he's getting the attention he deserves
Bro it's fucking MKLeo nigga could pick up any character a peeps will call them high tier or top tier remember how Ike was High tier at the beginning of Ult but once Leo dropped him he fell off hard
@@dimasddfoxy1492 He fell off bc he was an early meta char lol
@@chrispo7610 that's true but my point still stands lmao mkleo can win with anyone he chooses everyone else literally sucks to much to beat him
@@dimasddfoxy1492 my dude what year are you living in? This hasn't been real like ever, this is pure fucking cap when he's getting his ass handed to him in the aegis ditto by cosmos. If he could win with everyone he'd have done it with his comain (leo calls aegis his comain)
Byleth has everything I need. When I use other characters, I feel like something's missing.
Like killing with every move? I liked that part xD
Just remember that this video surely would not exist if leo would not picked byleth
Your commentary on pro games is the best I've seen so far. It really picks apart how to play better and why characters work or not. I appreciate this content a lot.
To anyone out here really thinking that Byleth is a mid tier, try to picture him as being a fast character movement-wise. Looks like a top tier suddenly, right ? Well duh, guess what : obviously, because his lack of movement speed is his only relevant flaw actually denying him of this status. Byleth is a high tier, it's not just MKLeo. The damn character has good range and big disjoints, great kill power onstage, offstage and with or without kill confirms, good out of shield options, a recovery most characters can't gimp reliably/consistently, a decent/good matchup chart, even beating or not losing to some top tiers (and when he loses, it's slightly more often than not)... need I say more to open your eyes ?
Also no, MKLeo couldn't win majors with any character. Hell no. MKLeo is obviously who he is, but in Ultimate, he always used swordies (Ike, Lucina), characters with good range and disjoints (Wolf), fast and powerful characters (Joker), or even all of that combined (Mythra/Pyra) in order to win. And most importantly, he always used good/great characters. Make him main solo Kirby. He won't win majors.
Not trying to diss his skills or anything (I'm not among those who think he's carried, rather I think that he carries his characters), but these myths of " Byleth is a low/mid tier " and " MKLeo could main Ganondorf and still be the best player " got so old it became more annoying than funny. It's been years since Ultimate started and Byleth came out, and it's like most people still can't see these truths.
At this point it feels like people keep sleeping on Byleth because they don't like him being a " waste of a character slot " and so it hurts them to even consider he could be good. When Joker came out, everyone was like " mid tier, high tier maybe " then MKLeo broke everyone face with him and people were like " Joker best in the game ". Everyone loves Joker. Just saying
P.S Yes, I commented the same thing on VoiD's latest video. See it as propaganda if you like to lol but more seriously, I just don't think I'm wrong about what I said here
What gets me about the "Leo could win with anybody" thing is that he literally has tried multiple times to make Marth work and gotten poor results every time.
Yet even though Leo couldn't make a character work, it seems like the common opinion in the community is "Marth is High Tier, people just don't play him since Lucina is better"
People seriously make weaknesses up for the character. He DOESN'T have bad frame data. Considering his range and kill power, his frame data is broken
@@DSaC_ Common opinion I see is that Marth isn't even high, just Mid or sometimes low which I still think is way too fucking low for him. But I agree that people just say "Well it's MKLeo" as a sort of cop out answer to avoid any discussion, being the best player doesn't mean you can literally play everyone and make them work.
@@DSaC_ he won on france with marth so he can make everyone work
@@willycheez7218 His frame data is also significantly better than Sephiroth's, his fair comes out a frame faster, his bair 2, his up air 6, his nair 3, and then his smashes are also faster.
Byleth’s forward and back airs may kill, but so does Larry’s solid hairline! Is he getting implants?! We may just have to ask!
So true
U watch the Manlet, aka Doucette?
It’s keeps bro xD
When Byleth goes super low, the Up B actually prioritizes the ledge over grabbing the opponent
I say like the bottom of high at most for Byleth, but I usually just stick the character at top of Mid because I do think they're very solid. Byleth is a prime example of how you need to give a character time to see where they truly end up or how good they might actually be (I've seen some people put em in low once lmao), I'm hoping the same will happen for other characters as the game progresses.
While I agree with byleth being a good character this might remind me of marth in smash 4 when Leo was the only one getting results and some people thought the character was overrated. I hope this doesn’t happen again
Mr. E's Marth in Smash 4 was pretty sick too.
@@SeriousStriker but at the end of the game people started to use lucina more
@@voodooedits785 marth was top 10 on smash 4 byleth is nowhere near top 10 on últimate
@@jasonlobo2350 true but that's not my point.
I will say I think one of the reasons why byleth is so good is because byleth is a very “counter meta character” out of shield options have very much so fell out of the meta but with byleth having shield pressure with good range and having a nair that is a good out of shield option being also safe makes the character very hard to deal with
Excellent point. Marss said something similar too!
Byleth is a great character indeed!
I love seeing people slowly take off their rage filtered glasses, still mad about the character being in the game, and realizing they’re actually really good.
Man, when Byleth first came out I loved him/her. Will always be my main... main. Seeing people now say "Byleth is actually good" while I've always been advocating it just brings a smile to my face
Larry, I think you'll find this interesting.
T1 was doing interviews with Leo for each day of SWT (think they do it for every major Leo goes to). After Day 2 was over and they interviewed Leo after beating Dabuz, Leo said because of the nerfs he felt confident that Byleth could pull it off against Min Min.
However, Dabuz went Rosalina instead.
The video for it is here: czcams.com/video/Q25I_ovPFuE/video.html
I had a feeling he would feel that way, glad there's an interview
Leo has never said they were top tier, to my knowledge. He said they were high tier
I swear if leo picked up ganon you guys would be like "Is GanOn HIgH tiEr?🤔🤔🤔🤔". Byleth sucks leo is just that much better than everyone else
Fax
Hopefully more people pick up byleth!
Me too! Glad I actually main Byleth
Meta Knight
Many definitely have i run into the ditto so much more often now than i used to.
Been playing a lot of this character the past months, can say Byleth and Sora are my mains, here is my scrub opinion and some points lots of people don't talk about too much:
First: they are incredible air fighters. SideB lets Byleth swat projectiles or edgeguard attempts away, as well as edgeguard. You already talked about upB, but you get hit by pretty much anything from Byleth offstage you just die. I have won random matches by just camping ledge, baiting them to come offstage or too close and outrange them if they try to edge guard or ledge trap me. I feel like this trick is silly and top players wouldn't fall for it, but it shows how Byleth has the upper hand on the air and some characters just can't do much about it. There is also how good at juggling they are, but most people already talk about it.
Secondly: their slowness doesn't really matter. Larry talked about it but just to add to it, I never had a problem hitting people. You can force them to approach and outrange them to punish or just simply spam nair if you're getting overwhelmed by speed, and dealing with campers is not that problematic because of arrows and sideB. The biggest issue with slow characters is the inability to follow up for combos, but Byleth doesn't really have that problem, especially at high percents where everything kills or can be followed up from nair. Lastly, people can't actually run from you or dribble you around because you're much deadlier than them offstage and your range doesn't allow them to jump over you or to platforms for free. You can see it in all Leo games, you can't camp Byleth.
Edit: Byleth is not as heavy as I thought, lmao
Uncivil Ninja vs MKLeo game 2 showed that you can camp Byleth, but it's not free.
Also, Byleth is as heavy as Luigi (lighter than Mario), so he's midweight and not really what you'd call heavy.
Really? I was told he was heavy, maybe I always felt he was heavy too, especially because it's so easy to reach high percentages against most characters. I'll edit the post.
@@rafaelbordoni516 It's because he has good weight while also having a crazy recovery so you'll most of the time be living much longer than most characters at his weight class
Why weren't more people saying this during quarantine? The character always had that Up B and that N-air. What happened that suddenly everyone says he's VERY good?
Leo starting beating everyone with a mid tier and no one wants to accept that Leo is just that much better than everyone else at the moment. Though tbf mid tiers in this game are actually good and decently viable characters unlike previous smash games where everyone other than top tiers were trash
Nobody could play properly due to online. Also p sure Byleth got buffed AGAIN when offline came back
Up-B got buffed actually. It used to just be a gimmick before that.
Byleth was buffed and now Leo's bodying everyone with the character offline.
@@Warrior10223 Actually, it's worse than just Leo being good. People just don't want to admit they don't have Byleth knowledge and made mistakes. We're in a competitive environment and people don't want to look weak. So a lot don't easily come out saying they loss because they lacked knowledge, did some things wrong or played badly for a match or two. The latter two definitely shown when multiple people faced Leo. Dabuz's Rosa could've easily won and he was actually doing well but fumbled when he really shouldn't have. JDizzles Young Link could have definitely won if he used more arrows throughout the set. Kola autopiloted/assumed a lot, rushed in often with less intention to react and didn't react properly while recovering.
Byleth's weight is also pretty respectable. He's no superheavy but he rarely dies below 130%, especially with a recovery like that.
Byleth is lighter than Mario.
@@fortressofsolitude2960 yh but mario is a dat duck
@@fortressofsolitude2960 By 1 weight value, which is very insignificant. And that still puts Byleth in the top half of the cast for weight, at 37th. As I said, not a superheavy, or even a heavy, but he won't be dying super early like Sephiroth or Fox.
He often lives to higher percents through his recovery, too. Belmonts weigh more than Byleth but you see them die at a much lower percent due to their bad recovery.
All together it results in a character who doesn't die off of like 2-3 bad interactions, which leaves the player with more room to make errors.
Interestingly enough, Corrin is heavier than Byleth also by 1 weight value; it just doesn't really seem like Byleth is as light as they actually are given their ground and air speed.
I think Byleth may have the hardest spiking down air on the game. It kills on the level at 125 and up to 150 on heavies. It's also insane with shield damage.
Mfw LarryLurr uploads
I don't believe Byleth is a top tier character either, but at this stage of the game, it would be ignorant to not call Byleth at least a high tier. Their matchup spread is quite solid and they either beat or do fine versus most characters, only having a harder time versus very fast rushdown characters due to lack of mobility and landing options. He does well versus most zoners with the exception of Min Min (although she got nerfed so she is less common). The only matchups that feel close to impossible are Pikachu, Min Min, and Sonic, and everyone else feels doable which is why Leo uses Byleth against everyone else. A character only having a few bad matchups doesn't make them tournament unviable, they can still do well versus a majority and use a secondary versus a few of them. A truly mid tier character wouldn't be able to win versus half the characters in the current meta consistently
How could you make a video about Byleth without talking about his best move?!?! His down b kills at 50% AND it has a HUGE radius! Definitely the second best move in the game besides warlock punch.
That’s “strong” move not best move if you getting hit by that your defense needs some work. No disrespect
It’s too slow to use.
Maybe best move for immediate damage and knock back but not for general combat. It's too slow to be used consistently without getting punished.
Definitely not his best move in my opinion. You've got down tilt, nair, forward air, up b. They all contribute hugely.... Perhaps the nair and forward air are the best. Up is sooooo broken though
Can’t believe that this many people missed the sarcasm
Byleth is only in this "top tier" discussion because Leo keeps winning with Byleth so people are only now trying to look at the good in Byleth lol. If not for that, Byleth wouldn't ever be mentioned.
100% the truth. Anything that guy plays immediately becomes suddenly “super strong top tier.” I remember when he first picked up Byleth I looked over to my friend and literally said “in before he starts winning because he’s Leo and everyone starts crying that Byleth is sleeper top tier and they knew it all along.” I saw this guy take down an online tourney with Greninja during original lockdown and it was literally the same shit. Leo is just a monster can’t people just admit it. Like when was the last time we even saw a Joker win shit?
I mean duh, that's how it should be, Leo has advanced the character to a point where it is a major tournament threat, it doesn't matter what people thought in the past as there's now irrefutable data that Byleth is a character that's very solid and can win tournaments, passing up this adavancements in the meta cuz in the past peeps thought Byleth was shit is ignorant to the current meta
@@skellez @alex snook yeah, if he picked up a "bottom tier" character and started winning, that character would all of the sudden be in the running for a top tier title haha
MKleo not winning with Kirby, the character is good stop coping lol
I disagree. The nair and up b alone make byleth higher on the tier list than most the cast
Byleth has probably the best kill confirms in the game in terms of both quality AND quantity...
If you always DI away from Byleth's Up B, you won't get hit by any follow ups after 30% or around there.
For real. It pains me when people DI in at kill percents so I get a free up air.
Hey I was wondering why more pros don't use moves that stall their decent when recovering against the bow. Idk if whiffing roy's side B will help him to float long enough to avoid it, but other characters surely have the options that they can mix up besides wasting an air dodge. Any thoughts ?
For example, Ik when I play byleth diddos, I like to use the little hop from the Up B to avoid getting hit by the arrow off stage, and after I still have time to jump and recover
@@brandonchacon7745 pro’s don’t have everything discovered and are not optimal which is contrary to popular belief
@@light_skit I don't expect them be God, though I feel like changing your momentum would be an important option when recovering, not something to gloss over. I was legitimately wondering if there was an actual reason, like maybe it puts them in a bad position, or something, or maybe Roy's side B doesn't stop him like marth's, idk I don't play Roy.
Also, It's been a thing in every smash game since melee, I'm sure they've discovered it.
I do this with ken's hadouken and focus attack a lot too, and I'm definitely no pro.
Leo is also really good with tippers and then there's the grab combos even the occasional down throw back air kill confirm or a good 18-20% off a throw combo
Training mode mod messes up with up B DI. It doesnt work properly. The setup you showed near ledge is actually backwards because of this.
That up B spike is just brutal! I haven’t really watched any top players use Byleth, he/she in the right match ups is ridiculous. Also Kola really needs to stop with the approach from off stage. The arrow isn’t that hard to air dodge. I think taking a change coming in high is better than just getting spiked over and over
Damn mkleo always be shifting peoples perspective. Pretty soon Byleths gonna be top 5 characters in the game.
Stop recovering low versus him if all he does is drop down up B. Roy could have just jumped straight into the stage without fastfalling or used airdodge (time it vs the expected Up B), you need mix ups.
I expected the video to start and end at “Because MK Leo carries”
edgeguarding is such an important part of ultimate and you can't really do it to Byleth that easy, that's why Leo is unbeatable still, also Leo's ledgetrap is second to none and the character can take a lot of stocks early.
Thats why his byleth got destroyed by esam, leo offstage gsme became weak because no one challenged him until esam lol
@@pistarrafernandez9830 I'm pretty sure Epic Gabriel also edge guarded Leo's Bylsth well. He almost pulled off the reverse 3-0.
@@pistarrafernandez9830 this is the comment of a person who doesn't want h much lmao. He's been duffed offstage before, he just rarely loses so a guy like you who's only saw it because he lost makes your comment. Byleth has been exploited off stage (yes Leo's) it's just hard to send a character consistently horizontal off stage. Unless you're a character like Pikachu or Rob who can push them out and still safely recover.
2020: byleth is mid tier
2021: byleth is high tier
2022: byleth is top tier??
1st year of ultimate: man Ike is top tier that character is so OP, fast forward a year after Leo dropped him, some ppl think he’s mid tier now.
Just after Joker dropped, most ppl considered him to be high tier, MKleo starts winning with him and wow Joker so op top 3 character in the game. We’ve done this song and dance twice before. Nobody was able to do what Leo did with either Ike or Joker, so no chance in hell anybody is gonna replicate his byleth
Ike was an aberration, that was like 2 months into the game’s life and there are definitely other top tier Lucinas and Jokers. Obviously they didn’t match Leo, but they had success, there are also a couple Byleth’s in Japan that are on the rise.
@@median99 true but people still think Joker is top 2 in the game. Who is winning with Joker atm? Where are the results?
I think the reality is that the game is pretty well balanced overall. I do think Leo could still win with Ike if he tried as well with Lucina and Wolf. Marth not so much but it is possible if he avoids the bad match ups.
@@LoadedKlip thank you! Been sayin this to goofs. Ain’t no joker in sight right now but he was the “best” character in the game. All of a sudden there is no joker in any recent top 8s. People don’t give Leo enough credit. It’s kind of frustrating lol
The “nobody else has been able to” argument is such a dead horse and is completely invalid in a game with over 80 characters. You simply *cant* have every good character in this game consistently winning majors because theres simply not enough top players to play them all.
First time I tried Byleth, I legit thought it's the worst Character of the Roaster. Even after 6 Months of Playing him/her.
Why?
Byleth is incredible slow. A huge flaw in Ultimate.
Byleth has shiit framedata.
But she was fun. Because her hitboxes are so satisfying. So I played her more and more. Then she got buffed. Then I watched Leo. And Tutorials.
Byleth got some nasty combos.
All in all her damage output is huge and her killpower is insane.
And she has very powerful kill confirms.
But she still has a poor frame data and overall is just too slow.
I honestly think that Byleth is carried by MkLeo.
And that the gaps between all characters are not as big, as many Pros think...
MkLeo could play any character of the roaster - and after moths of practice he could win any major with him/her.
Byleth is my main now, because I discovered the fun in her.
But still - many characters are naturally better. And you, the player, must be really good to "kill" her huge disadvantages.
Picking Mythra and Pyra would be a much easier win...:D
"I don't think that tether recoveries are that hard to edgeguard"
Larry Lurr, who plays characters with lingering hitboxes lasting for years
Going offstage against byleth as wolf is risky business.
@@AbeDorf18 it is, but hit Byleth with without her having her double jump means kill her
@@tsubaki_perle7500 but that is so much easier said than done. Byleths tether is unique in that it can go *incredibly* low. Wolf can not meaningfully threaten that if byleth has resources.
@@AbeDorf18 if she has, as a Byleth main, I know that a good Wolf will make me lose my ressources, and after double jump is gone, her broken tether just become a REALLY good vertical recovery, but if there isn't big walls, like PS2, or SV, she won't make it back
It's hard and risky, but if it works, it kills
People saying he can't be a good character because only one player performs with them are such clowns lmao. Why is there only one Pikachu/Shulk/Fox/Sora and (ex) PT top player when these characters are high/top tiers?
Well all the best PT players dropped him for new characters tbf
There's actually multiple Fox players, Light, Pasariman, Jill, Lui$. Esam's played Pikachu for Years; I mean over a decade. It's not a character for everyone. But Byleth is a different circumstance. If Leo wasn't playing Byleth, no one would care about him. His Up B mechanic would be as relevant as Falcos side B spiking. All the characters you mentioned, people actually say their good despite their being numerous players, because of frame data a good match ups. Remember, Leo was the same guy killing everyone with Ike. IKE!
People overrate how important mobility actually is in ultimate. The community is an echo chamber with opinions andso many characters get overlooked or underlooked.Byleth another example of most of the community being wrong about characters in the game. Still waiting for people to realize cloud sucks.
I was with you until "waiting for cloud sux" . Like what? LMAOO im waiting for people to realise cloud is broken
@@lokks2130 Well to each their own i say. Cloud just has some very bad hitboxes and his crosslash is easily punishable even limit crosslash. bair is more honest looking every day to me . Fair is kinda busted i will say but cloud is just too honest and finishing touch doesn't kill well if you di it. Cloud sux imho. He has good mobility a safe bair and fair but lacks a good oos option, a good set of kill confirms and a good recovery and his disadvantage is actually really bad without limit. This is why i say cloud sucks.
some of the shit you said is just straight up wrong lol, cloud has superb out of shield (up+b) and if fair is busted I see no reason why back air isn't absolutely silly. shits just a less laggy palu bair
i don't see why limit cross slash being punishable makes it less broken either, it comes out so fast and it's massive. the risk reward is so in his favour, not hard to just pick ur spots
cloud has no problems killing regardless of lacking confirms since most of his moves kill + limit + surprisingly good edgeguarding. that dude is broken. recovery and grab seem to be his only flaws, and ig he has a few underwhelming moves (still "good" if you know how to use them)
@@lokks2130 Up b out of shield is free to punish and everything i said is right lol. Sorry but if you play against decent people they start to punish up b out of shield by di and sdi out of it. his kill confirms is super lackluster. recovery is rough and limit side b can be parried easily its called there is too long a pause between the second to last and last hit that you can roll, spotdodge and parry limit crossslash and crosslash free if he uses it against your shield. His back air isn't silly. There are far more egregious hitboxes and moves being punishabel makes them far from broken and the risk reward isn't there its all risk for little reward. I say Fair is kinda busted for cloud cause before 70 percent or even 70 on some characters you can cheese stocks form 20-40 percent with stuff like fair dair and fair fair but thats as far as cloud cheese goes. You are extremely overrating cloud man. Everyone is to be honest. Cloud is not good in ultimate. Cloud is too honest of a character to be good and people still let him get aways with some very punishable stuff like letting him recover and letting him crosslash on shield and not using di when hit with some of his kill moves leading to their deaths earlier than they should be losing a stock from cloud. Cloud really isn't good in ultimate otherwise if he was most cloud mains wouldn't have dropped him and even spargo plays aegis more now. Cloud isn't good in ultimate. Raw kill moves are not as great as consistent kill confirms and never will be. In ultimate in order for a character to be good they need great oos options, a great advantage state and combo game, a disadvantage state that allows them to escape some scenarios easier, a great recovery, great framedata and also a good neutral and a cheater mechanic of some sort cause none of the high tiers and top tiers are honest in ultimate. Cloud has only like 1 or 2 of these things. Clouds kill power without limit is also horrible and you can live against back air up to 140% depending on the side blastzones but FD you can easily do that as mario even. Cloud's kill power even with raw hits is actually abysmal compared to other high and top tiers. If you wanna think a bad character is busted go right ahead. its your opinion at the end of the day but i will stick to my analytical reasons and belief he is not good in ultimate.
@@dave9515 dude you cant punish limit crossslash lol you always needs a parry and thats a risk
that landing nair hitbox looks like someone L canceled too late in melee and accidentally shielding
Byleth is upper middle teir or low high teir imo
Becouse is played by the best player. Stop
Correct me if I’m wrong, but can Byleth forward throw from ledge, drop down up special at kill percent?
As a Byleth main, yea he's got some good tools.
I wouldn't see him as a really good character but I'm not a competitive player. I just enjoy playing him.
Byleth is my secondary I have fun with the character I agree he has good tools but I don’t think they are as high on the tier list as people think maybe top 25-30.
@@senpaifear6293 agreed. His slowness was definitely something I had to get used to when I first started playing him because I used to main Link before maining Byleth.
@@fluffydemon1 that’s a big difference LMAO, byleth felt pretty natural to me because my main is inkling. The similarities in their play-styles is you don’t always want to approach with them a lot of the time. But byleth is getting the dlc treatment where if they are a dlc they got to be broken. Byleth just seems broken cause mkleo plays them. It takes the right player to play byleth to a top level.
What do you think Leo is gonna do vs Pikachu?
0:00 This Video is not possible without MKLeo
People pretending that there aren't nearly 90 characters in this game and Byleth was one of the least liked newcomers, of course he was going to be underdeveloped and would have remained so without a top player representative.
Yeah Byleth is top tier...when Leo uses him
Great video! I'd really love to hear your takes on Peach/Daisy sometime!
I tested out something random and apparently down b can 2 frame. It is incredibly hard to hit though
Tbh the only swordie that byleth loses to is shulk, because he is has better range (except byleths spear moves), out neutrals byleth with speed art and his range (except byleths spear moves), out damages byleth, is one of the characters that don't have that hard of a time edgeguarding byleth (even after the dial glitch got patched) due to fair and air slash (shulks up b) send at good angles that make byleth hard to recover, abuses byleths disadvantage better than byleth can abuse shulks disadvantage, out lives byleth (due to shield art), byleths down tilt to up smash or up air don't work due to shield art (most of byleths multi hit kill confirms don't work on shulk), and shulk can just keep byleth away from him which does make it hard for byleth and also is good at anti airing byleth due to shulks nair covering his entire body and its range.
Byleth has one of the the best recoveries in the game. ZSS might still be #1 but Brawler and Gunner are definitely up there with certain movesets. Their projectiles are amazing at protecting them while returning to stage. ZSS has quicker moves and is better at recovering below the ledge, but Brawler and Gunner have more versatile recoveries and can fly across the whole stage while pelting the opponent with projectiles. Also Brawler has crazy reverse edgeguarding potential and can just kill you at 0% with a few of their specials.
Pac-Man's is a bit overrated imo.. But it's still really good and lets him go deeper to edgeguard than anyone else. Nobody even tries to figure out how to edgeguard him. His Up B only has super armor and high knockback after he eats the pellet so there's a pretty big window where you can hit him. It's also pretty easy to break the trampoline if he has to recover low and he can't when bouncing off it.
I would also say m2 has a great recovery when factoring his double jump as well, the character can make it from anywhere offstage as long as he has jump and telport.
that landing hitbox on nair is evil
What’s the mod he’s using at the start of the video?
@@radioheadyorke Bruh
Larry Lurr has good takes most people aren't ready for
Here we go again
The reason people lose against Leo's Byleth is because at some point they psych themselves out of playing their character to their full potential. That's either because their too scared or too complacent. Basically, assessing respect incorrectly and then picking wrong options.
In JDizzle's match against Leo during SWT, JD should've been using more of Young Link's arrows straight out of the gate. He would've staggered Leo's approach consistently and gotten way more hits as well as kills that way. We seen that on his last match on Kalos. Kola autopiloted/assumed too much. He started rushing in too often with less intention to react and didn't react correctly offstage while recovering. I main Marth and I'd only lose exchanges to Byleth when I assume too much, rush in carelessly and don't react properly. Sword characters are all about having the cleanest exchanges possible.
Anathema should have been using more Gyro's throughout the set and simply reacting to Leo. Ana was getting kills on Leo but Ana's R.O.B could've easily played more annoyingly. Dabuz started retreating too much and would start jumping, shielding or incorrectly attacking when he could have gotten easy punishes up close. Rosaluma easily can control the stage and the pace in this MU; which Dabuz was doing consistently but he kept fumbling just as much. Cosmos started to play Pyra too much and lost patience as Mythra. He started getting caught doing clearly wrong things upclose to Leo as well as around the ledge when on offense and defense. I play Aegis sometimes and believe it or not, you have to treat them like any other sword character. If you aren't trying to get clean hits, you get hit and can easily lose no matter how good the character is.
Mind you, Byleth is one of the 10 slowest characters in the game and their frame data is like a mix between Marth and Pyra; which is average at best and questionable. Despite their lengthy moves it isn't hard to get in and she has a pretty whack projectile. If your character isn't below average in ground speed, they always have to react to you. It's either A) You get to center stage, they start mashing attacks and you block/dodge > punish. Or B) they wait too long for an opening, move incorrectly > punish. Unless you get hit by arrow or don't approach. Byleth gets hit once and is on the ropes immediately for the entire match or dead. People are in the mind state of "if I manage to hit you with absurdity when you mess up despite my main having terrible flaws, my main is good". It's the logic that makes people think Falco is high tier and makes Ganon FEEL more rewarding than Captain Falcon. That's why people think Byleth is great and that's partially Ultimates fault cause of its design.
Yeah keep telling yourself that
Once again, I’ve told people that Byleth was a problem when they came out and now I’m glad you you made this video because people try to justify Byleth being mid-tier by saying their slow and frame data is not good. Like i always say, they’re slow because their range and kill power is insane. Their moves are safe against most characters when spaced and like Larry said you mix up the timings. Off stage nearly nothing you can do to get back or stop them from coming back unless you have a specific character or you just catch the Byleth slipping. People need to focus more on what kinda situations Byleth can put you in over the characters stats (speed/frame data). If you did make this character fast, that’ll probably instantly make them top tier so people please stop complaining about Byleth being slow
Let's not forget that after Byleth was released, Ultimate got a patch that made shield bigger for many rosters, showing how threatening Byleth shield break / punish game.
Byleth has the bare minimum a character needs to be good
How do you have the hitbox frames, DI and stuff ? Great video
It's a mod for the training mode
@@ElChicoBush how can i get it ? ._.
@@Strominator No idea, sorry.
whats the green frame data thing that he has? its in game right?
It’s a mod
What is this training mode mod called?
Don't talk about mobility with void 😂
byleth can literally take you from 0 to 50 with up throw-up b-side b its ridiculous
Byleth is great, high tier for sure. And as any character in the hands of Leo top tier.
How do you not tether the stage after dropping from ledge? It always just makes me regrab
Do up B again before 1 second has passed and upB will ignore ledge this is true for every character not just byleth
@@jasonlobo2350 thx!!
@@jasonlobo2350 its about a half a second before you regrab.
Meh. I still think that it's just Leo is godlike at the game.
It's crazy how people think this character is "top tier." It's Leo Ike all over again. Byleth is a mid tier with a cheap up special.
@@xzgears929 definitely not a top tier but byleth is definitely better than Ike
@@xzgears929 He's high tier
@@xzgears929 just because you’re not good enough to utilize a character’s strengths doesn’t make them bad. it makes you bad
@@xzgears929 mid tiers don't solo majors and near-solo supermajors with nearly as much consistency as byleth has, even in the hands of the best player in the world. Ike was only that consistent at the very start of the game because he's an easy character to pick up and be successful with whose meta optimized faster than most other characters, there's a reason we barely saw mkleo play ike after the very beginning of competitive ssbu. Byleth on the other hand is here to stay, and is still mkleo's ace character undoubtedly.
Even with all that being said I still wouldn't call byleth top tier, but he's clearly a good character, and ultimate is balanced enough that just being a good character is good enough to win even at the highest level of play. Mkleo himself thinks of the character as being top 25 material, and I'd far sooner believe his judgment of the character than any random youtube commenter's.
Consistency, that's what makes Byleth so strong I don't think the character has a bad move in their command list
Down B and fully charged neutral B are garbo lmao.
As for real moves, downsmash is still pretty lack luster especially when you consider the downair buffs. Other than that though yeah her kit is extraordinarily solid. Upair, nair, fair, and bair are all in contention for top 5 in their respective class honestly. And the tilts are all incredibly useful. Like people talk about roy/chrom ftilt all the time, byleths is the same speed and bigger with better safety when spaced at the expense of a bit of kill power. But that makes it great for ledge trapping.
I love byleth he is so much fun to play ^-^
yessir byleth mains check in
Pessimistic Byleth main. I think Byleth is good, but saying they're top tier is kinda goofy lol. Leo is literally the only person doing stuff with the char and that's cause he's Leo
@@IndigoStarturds yeah i agree they’re not top 10, maybe even 20, but they’re fun, and i’ve stuck around since launch
It's not terrible to be slow if you've got good zoning tools.
Byleth is high mid tier, but the game is very well balanced so MKLeo can win with Byleth. People are crazy to think Byleth is a top character. It’s just because Leo is that good. Byleth has virtually no other results in competitive play. Nothing against the character of course. It’s just a majority of the cast is able to be very successful in competitive play. The character diversity in the game is unlike no other fighting game, especially considering there are 80+ characters
Leo thinks he's top 20. Virtually no results except for winning 3 majors almost back to back is a pretty hilarious statement.
Nope. High tier. He has no actual weakness besides his speed
@@trombonegamer14 I said no OTHER results. I acknowledged MKLeo's results with Byleth. But other than MKLeo, Byleth has bottom 20% results in competitive play
Then why is joker considered top tier when Only one person has won with him.
@@NotoriousJCN23 Because that's obvious lol he has no weakness, anyone could work that out
what is this training mode? Can i use it ?
It’s a mod as long as your switch isn’t patched you can use it
She’s just so consistent
The title of this video surprised me, considering that in your video of “One Thing I Hate About Every Smash Ultimate Character,” you said the thing you hated about Byleth was his and her inclusions in the game
One can not like a character's inclusion but still compliment the attributes and moveset that said character has. Of course, there are instances in which the attributes and moveset of a character can be the reasoning for one to dislike a character, as was the case for many people with Bayonetta during Super Smash Bros. for 3DS/WiiU.
Character was for sure high tier since the buffs
Awesome
I thought the thumbnail said "Why Byleth Is Green"
LMAO. Insert line about FE characters and green hair.
Leo effect.
Leo is truly the goat in ultimate
Carried by her nair
The title of this video makes me sick. Smash players and community member are sooooo bad at determining a characters viability. For the longest time, no one has been able to shut up about how byleth is bad and mkleo only wins because he's good. And now it's, Hur dur, I guess they are good cuz they win too much to be bad. It's so biased. Same with melee. Pretty sure there a few more top tiers in that game that people done recognize.
imagine being upset that people are willing to change their minds when there is evidence to indicate they were wrong. I'm not sure why any of this indicates bias.
Also, there's a huge difference between a character moving up the tier list in a game that is only a few years old and was still getting regular balance patches, and finding a new top tier in melee, a 20 year old game with no balance patches.
also, "the title of this video makes me sick" really? get over yourself.
@@Nick_2i Lol yeah maybe it was a bit much saying it made me sick haha.
I do think though that people are extremely poor at determining character viability in general, and that their determinations are usually based on shallow information. E.g. which character is winning to most right now? This one? They must be broken.
That seems to me to be the mindset that most people have when it comes to smash games.
Same thing occurred in melee. Remember puff?
@@sebastiansullivan4770 You're definitely right that people have a very short memory in regards to character viability. It's definitely weird seeing peach go from top 3, to top 5, to top 10 and even lower now that there isn't much (any?) top level representation.
It's tough to say whether the community is actually bad at determining character viability, or if it really is just down to the meta being fluid in the early years of the game. It also doesn't help that the online era completely threw off everyone's concept of viability and tiers for a while.
but yeah, I definitely agree that byleth in particular is an especially egregious example of a community wide overreaction
also, sorry for being aggro in my first comment for literally no reason lmao
@@Nick_2i No problem I kinda get why you reacted that way. "The title of this video makes me sick" LMAO. That's genuinely funny in retrospect.
I agree it's hard to say. These days I've kinda been on the Pyra/Mythra are the absolute best. But we are yet to see dominating results.
Great video, I agree the character is very good. But Leo never said Byleth is top tier. Only as a meme, he says the character is high tier.
I still think eventually people will understand the matchup more and they'll realize whilst he is still very good, there are clear weaknesses with him. The smash community tends to be extreme with opinions on cases like this and the divide ends up being that the character is either broken or trash. Happened with Sheik and Sephiroth, it's happening now.
Byleth is a mediocre character. At best they are mid high tier. mkleo does not call byleth top tier. Byleth being slow absolutely matters for getting camped
@Joshua Suh In this game yeah, certainly not a great character
@Joshua Suh Leo carries
Ah can't wait for 5 byleths top cutting majors.
does anyone know the frame data/ hitbox thing hes using?