Knife Grind Basics! Hollow, Flat, Scandi, Convex, and Chisel Grinds
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- čas přidán 11. 06. 2017
- In this video knife maker Walter Sorrells discusses the advantages and disadvantages of various grind types -- flat grind, hollow grind, convex grind, Scandi grind, etc. both from the perspective of a user and a maker. Demonstrations of each grind, with tips and tricks.
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Mr. Sorrells I can't thank you enough for your selfless attempt to help beginners and pros alike to make the best knives that someone can. I truly believe that this is one of the best channels for not only making knives but making anything in general. Thanks again!
That must have been the most organic ad break I've ever seen on YT!
Well, you warned me about getting the knife making fever but I wouldn't listen. Now I'm addicted. Thanks!
Same
Me too Chris
I'm in it for the chicks.
walter- thanks for the videos series man, really enjoying it and learning alot.
i really love your videos, this is probably one of the most helpful series on youtube!
Thanks for the informative video Walter.
The most involved, best info on CZcams about making knives! Thanks so much for your time. I'm inspired!
Thanks Walter. Great stuff, as usual.
Great video Walter. I love your channel. Thank you for all your effort.
Thanks for all the detail and tips! Excellent video
For a beginner this information is GOLD. Thank you Walter
Walter is a Master at grinding!!! I love his explanation on grinding all different types of grinds!
I am a TOTAL NEWBEE and really got a good education about whet each grind is and an idea how they were achieved. Although not , currently, intending to be a knife maker I have good ideas about how to sharpen different knives. Surely I’ll be searching Goodwill and Arc thrift store for as many different “junkers” to practice on......if lucky, I may end up saving one or two of them as good knives. Bottom line is time shall tell. Thank you.
Fabulous roundup of a topic. Just the kind of thing that should be seen before delving into the separate parts.
I'm just getting into knife making and your videos have been extremely helpful. Thanks
Thanks for all the great info good sir!
This is gold! Thank you. Grinding the bevel is the hard part for me.. let me know when your ready to teach someone on camera. I’m in Woodstock Ga.
GREAT SERIES TO LEARN FROM. TWO THUMBS WAY UP!!!
Thank you , Very much . Just learning as a hobby at 46 and your videos are so helpful . Appreciative..
Thanks Walter! Scandi grind everything!
Thank you for the tips.
Outstanding video. Good tips for the knife purchaser (me) as well as the knife maker.
Thanks Walter great video!
Great video, really well explained. I was really hoping to see you on the latest forged in fire .....
Very good explanation of different grinds!
oh Walter. You big hunk of love. Woof! x
Tried the ceramic belts you linked in the last video, the combat abrasives belts, very happy with the performance & life. Feels like I can focus on the grinding technique and what I want it to look like finished instead of the supplies.
instablaster.
Wow. That was REALLY helpful, I think.
Greetings from Germany,
Edgar
Hey Walter , how about some advice on buying some quality water stones . Would like to see a video on that in the near future. Thanks for all the great advice and videos
Thanks for the information
Damn i was just looking for a video like this :). Thanks a lot.
Thanks Walter.
Awesome video thank you
Great vid,good info!
Excellent video
I wanted to thank you for leaving out the high pitch transition 'song' and not putting it in every time you switch talking points. Much more relaxing to watch and listen too 👍
i just start knife making (just a habby) thx 2 u Walter
@19:12 “A knife in the throat might suck even worse than one in the chest.”
Might?!
Great videos! Love your channel. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise!
Obviously you're not familiar with a "sucking chest wound" it's when the chest is punctured and air leaks in, which makes it impossible to breath. (I'm not a doctor; don't kill me if I'm wrong)
@@clarefabula4588 I’m going out on a limb here and saying both wounds would suck.
@@w4shep LOL the chest wound would literally suck air through the hole the neck wound would *metaphorically* suck.
Great video!
Brilliant!
Best videos ever!
When you put in your grinds, do you measure what degree you put them in at, or is it by hand and eye?
How do you keep them straight and symmetrical?
18:18 and 19:07 made me laugh. Thanks for the video, best grind vid on youtube.
I knew I couldn't be the only one lol
Ha! Anyone else get the mental image of a knife sticking out of someone's throat or chest?
I’m thinking of doing a Sabre grind for my first knife or a scandi . Just ordered my first piece of 8670 from pops
Convexed scandi, or sabre, sometimes I prefer no secondary Bevel, I like this for precision light cutting or carving, like a straight razor edge, flat and v edge grinds are best for shaving I've found however, but for all else I want my edge convex. I've put a convex edge on pretty much any grind you can think of.
Great video cover many grind styles. For safety someone should mention never grind with the edge pointing in the direction of the belt on a slack belt set up. you know for beginners. Thanks
Thank you!!!!!
Please how many degrees are the blades?
Sef knives, Knives butcher, hunting etc???
Walter can you do a tutorial on equipment needed for S grind
have you looked in lapidary supplies for fine grit water cooled discks and stone for the scandi grind
Alright, new video!
fantastic
How do you do the secondary bevel on the flat grind?
Hey Walter , I’m just starting out making knives and I was wondering if you could use a jig on a slack belt to do convex grinds ? I have just bought my grinder and it’s not even set up yet but I wanted to watch some grinding videos before I tried the real thing. I’m going to be using a jig for as much as I can because I’ve got problems that cause my arms to be weak and holding something for a long time can be a problem but if I can do it on a jig then It probably won’t cause as much trouble.
How Wide / Thick a blade can be hollow ground with a 10" contact wheel?
That's what I have and it matches my tormek 10" wet grinder .
2 questions. When flat grinding, how do you hold your off hand? The one that is putting direct preasure on the blade. I have chewed my fingers up! Second, how do you grind the tip? I end up grinding the crap out of the tip, (I will loose an 1/8 to a 1/4 of an inch from the tip of a blade. Just so you know, i am using a 4x24" grinder i got from home depot. Was all i could afford and doesnt work too bad.
Hey mister Walter, question… what make and size is the large brown stone you use? I know king makes a large 1000 grit stone but I don’t think it’s that big. Thanks for your time brutha
muy bueno . maestro me diria como puedo hacer q la cuchilla de mi sepillo tenga buen filo y dure. cómo templar
Hey Walter! I really enjoy your videos! I want to get into knife making! Can/would you give me recommendations for decent knife grinders? Not the best, as I cannot afford much! Possibly used, or cheap new ones? I will probably, mostly, want to hollow grind my blades.
Thanks!
Bob Campbell, you can use a 2x42 single speed belt sander. It won't be as easy or versatile as what you see in this video but it works, and it does have the virtue of being small and portable. At something like one tenth the price and one fourth the size of a 2x72, it's an option for someone who isn't making a ton of knives. It's what I've got, and it's fine. Belt selection is no problem. I probably will never replace mine. I do wish I had a variable speed, though.
Hill Wellford , I really appreciate it!
awesome
there is a second approach to hollow grinding, and that's blending. Gil Hibben uses an 8" wheel for everything, even 2" high grinds. I know several mastersmiths who have done 1.5-2" tall hollow grinds on 1/8" stock with a 3-4" wheel, just for the fun of it.
it's definitely not for beginners though, and is very easy to screw up
Yep, I bought a 1 1/2hp Burr King in 90' with all the attachments from John Mallot @ True Grit when I began and I use to use a 10" smooth contact wheel on the wider stuff but moved to my 8" for everything.. It does take a little time to develop the skills to blend the bevels perfectly.. That's the way all us old makers learned to do it..Gil is a fine maker and a really great guy..Check out his King Tut, you don't see many million $ knives these days, I think he built another along the same lines for a little less for a Japanese businessman, however it's just as note worthy.. This is an excellent video especially for those that are just needing a little direction and guidance towards building they're skill level and confidence.. You might as well resign to the fact that you are going to make some wall bangers (we all did) but you're skills will improve so don't get discouraged.. I would most definitely start off grinding mild steel before you jump into the high end stuff until you're skill level dictates otherwise.. One recommendation is join a local or state knife club organization.. you will find a bunch of great like minded individuals who are more than willing to help you achieve what it is you're looking for...The shows are a hoot to attend and you just might find yourself sitting at an 8' table with you're offerings for sale on it one day? Have fun above all..and remember if you're equipment bites you, you are using it wrong 😆
cheers.
Where do you buy that type of scribe?
Most folks like to get there blades shaving sharp . I prefer to have a bit of toothy sharp . I found that when they are toothy the edge last a bit longer
why are you sometimes grinding around the wheel and sometimes grinding with the belt set up vertically between two wheels? advantages/dis for both?
nevermind lol I wrote this before finishing the video lol duh youtube much?
I love your videos I been watching them for a long time now. You being on forged in fire was what got me to watch my first episode of it. Sorry that was a tough break (pun intended). So recently I started making my own knives in a primitive fashion due to lack of sophisticated tools using lawnmower blades and leaf springs to hone in my techniques and files to make my edges the biggest problem I'm having tho is heat treatment every time without fail my knives warp out to bananas what can I do to stop this from happening or at least minimize the warp
I may not be Walter, but I think I can help. Don't grind too thin before heat treat (no thinner than a dime at the edge). Use a quenchant that matches your steel choice if possible (avoid water at all costs in your learning stages). If forging, thermal cycle the blade before heat treat (you're stressing that steel out whilst whacking with a hammer).
polishavenger1 thanks for the advice
Roger Mcgraw uneven heat will warp a blade if one side is hotter..don't move the blade latterly in the quechent..either "stab" the quechent (move blade up and down tip to handle or "chop" the quechent (spine to edge) never ever right to left (bevel to bevel)....even grinds and the smoother the better...after grinding get the blade wet and watch how it reflects the light..it should be uniform througout..no multifaceted reflections on a plane...the reflected light should flow smoothly and follow the profile of the edge consistsntly..you don't want to see the reflection jump or bend...where the light is at handle end should be where it is at tip end...hope this makes sense...its easier to see it that explain it..these can all facilitate warping..
polishavenger1 for the most part I keep my edge thick before hardening I'm still using mystery steel tho so I don't know what to exactly quench with but I do stay away from water I tried normalizing the knives before but still got massive warping
If you're using old leaf springs, generally they get treated as if they were 5160. Canola oil would probably be okay if you're not diving in to purpose-made quench fluids. Perhaps they're warping from leftover stresses that come with being bent in a particular direction and then being flexed for 20 years. Have you tried an edge-quench? Drop a limiter plate into your quench tank so that your blade doesn't completely submerge in the quench, rock back and forth tip to heel....careful that the heat in the spine doesn't auto-temper the blade edge!
People/craftsman talk about the benefits of a 72inch belt sanded compared to a 36inch. I was wondering what's the story on bandsaws, would a longer blade be more efficient i.e. less costly in the long run and more time efficient per cut?
Not necessarily. Some blades are more common, like for a 14 inch vertical bandsaw and you have more options to get a low cost blade, while other bandsaws have unique blades that limit your purchasing options. Go with the more common blade lengths and you'll be fine regardless of the size.
Why are you sharpening with edge leading instead of edge trailing? Isn't it safer to sharpen edge trailing as well as easier to control how much of the edge vs the spine is sharpened during a convex grind?
Joseph Hannah i think its mostly preference.i have seen people grind like your talking about.i lead the edge but i can "feel" everything going on.and in some ways you may want to get that edge zeroed with speed especially on short bevels.but in the end you controle this by simply applying pressure in different ways.far as safe,its as safe as it can be when your making a razor sharp edge on a fast moving abrasive object throwing sparks and specks of metal everywhere at high volocities.at this point the orientation of the blade isnt gona dramatically improve your safety lol.
Have a customer who seems to think a short scandi grind is desirable. IT IS THE EASIEST GRIND TO DO. I guess that is why it is popular in the Norse countries.
I just started making knives and I am using a 1x30 to do my grinding. I have a hard time when I get to the tip. I keep burning it, and my 4" knife becomes a 3" knife. Any tips to help out with that?
WILDSTANG30250 same here. I haven’t put in enough time, yet, to figure out a solution; but I think a lighter touch towards the tip, while mainly the correct angle will help.
I also have to shorten the blade after I get it too hot.
Less pressure, and faster travel speed, also make sure the belt isn't worn out.
14:41 I did that on my first hollow grind, it sucked.
With regards to hollow grinds, is the grind shape itself weak or is it weak due to there being potentially less steel behind the edge/secondary bevel? For example say a thick chopping knife has a hollow grind but at the beginning of the edge bevel it's still 2 millimeters thick, is this still a weaker grind than a flat grind that's 1 millimeter thick at the start of the edge bevel on the same knife?
I'm not a structural engineer, but as far as I know hollow grinds are inherently weak, whereas convex grinds are inherently strong. Of course if you grind a hollow grind extra thick, say 1mm at the edge, it will be stronger than a .25mm convex grind, but there's no point in an extra thick hollow grind as it eliminates the primary advantage of that type of grind.
Mt. Baldwin for what it's worth, steel choice is more important. With the right steel and heat treat, you can chop dry hard hickory with a hollow ground blade with a 6 thou edge without damage. I've done it.
basically if you have edge chipping on any knife, it's a steel issue not a grind issue
Hand filing bevels solves the heating issue. It's just a pain in the ass.
Why grind blade up? I see some people say its dangerous, is there a trade off or preference? Thanks !
It prevents something called kickback. The machine is constantly trying to drag your workpiece down, so it is safer (and more controlled) to grind facing up
i was wondering, how do you work your plunge line when grinding vertically on a wheel? spcecially if you are doing a convex bevel. do you forcefully end up with a "hollow" plunge line?
What do you think about those cheap 1 inch belt grinders? Would you say they are crab or a good way to start?
Its what ive been using, and while it is a lot slower and more tedious to use, it can still make a good knife. for the price, definitely worth it. bonus if you can get a deal on the model with the attached 5 inch disk sander
MoLottes, what kind a belts have you found work best for the 1x30s?
I just buy the cheap ones on amazon. i believe they are PowerTec brand, i get 10 for less than 10 bucks, and i have Prime so its nice to have the quick shipping, if i forget that i need more to finish a project in time.
MoLottes , Thanks, I'll have to check it out.
amazon also sells ceramic belts in 40 and 36 grit for 1x30, but i own a 1" sander and I honestly doubt that these have the power to drive a ceramic belt correctly. and these grinders are NOT accurate. They move around all the time.
What about the super thick Medford hollow grind..... :)
Gross
10:55 is that blood ?
You confuse concave and convex ! Can you show how to form convex blade please ?
Hwheels.
DraGma does it bug u 2
Tom Fuller
That's what also came into my mind :-D
OMG... and what if Walter is actually Stewie? :-O
DraGma '
"A knife to the throat might suck even worse than a knife to the chest" - Quote of the week.
Scandi grind for life.
I've never seen anyone grind against the grain. Doesn't that create a hotter blade and take more metal off than you'd want to.
Is it hard to make a career out of this because I would imagine that the pay would not be great?
Basics of Knife Grinding 101....
Saber or convex here.
Chipping makes me rage!
Try a scandi-vex, and actually try a one bevel knife, you can make any kind of edge or grind convex, which resists chipping and pushes material away from the edge like your peeling it off of the steel, although convex grinds and edges do not shave all that well, surprisingly, flat grinds and v edges are the best for shaving, but overall, I prefer a convexed scandi or saber grind.
Isn’t Walter one of the few people to have his knife snap in two on forged in fire?
Yeah, well, can't remember if it's "in two" per se, but yes it shattered.
Walter, if you are interested in a possible CZcams collaboration opportunity, Doug Jackson of SVSeeker is looking for someone to come to his boat build in Tulsa, to give him a quick-start tutorial on his new Tormach mill like yours. He's a great guy with solid computer skills, including CNC, but is new to the Tormach, and is looking for help getting it fired up. Since you just went through that process, thought I'd pass it on.
Guess who else use water cooled round stones much like the japanese? Scandinavians😉
Kind of disappointed in that you really didn't go into the geometries and comparison of types i.e. saber vs convex,hollow vs concave and scandi vs chisel. I'd really like to see a better description of the grinds.
Hi mr sorrells, i am from iran and my fiance is a knife maker. We are very interested in your videos. Do you mind if we translate and subtitle your video in persian and post it in our instagram page? And we sure mention your name and your channel there. I think it will be very usefull for our followers
How he says wheels anoys me so much just say weel
joseph windsor
Oh, so you never heard of cool hwhip?
Scandi is ugly, and looks like a pain to sharpen...
It is actually one of the easiest to sharpen, just lay the bevel against the stone and grind it keeping the bevel flat against the stone. If the blade has a secondary bevel, it is much harder to feel when the blade is flat against the stone, beauty in a knife is how well it does its job first before looking at cosmetics.
Just my opinion and $0.02 worth,
Gabby
I forgot to mention that a Scandi is technically a long secondary grind.
@@GabbyBillNumberOne I meant time consuming, as you need to grind down the whole big wide edge surface every time you sharpen it...
stupid intro means psychological problems?
you make and sell knives and still asking for subs and patrion support?seriously?is youtube paying out that much these days?wish people would just let their content speak for itself.this begging for likes and subs is way to close to flying a cardboard sign at a buisy intersection.i would have expected better from a respectable bladesmith.i dont know to many that are skilled in this feild that go hungry.good content but the experience was totally ruined by the begging at the end.