All In On NDI - Ethernet replaces HDMI and SDI for video production.
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- čas přidán 26. 07. 2024
- We are at a time where technology allows us to replace various HDMI and SDI standards and cables, not worrry about distance, repeaters, patch bays, distribution amplifiers, or even wires altogether - by putting video into an IP container. Digital packets. NDI is the leading standard and I will provide an overview on what NDI is, from a practical (non technical) standpoint, and show off a few of the key features of what makes NDI so enticing.
- Věda a technologie
Looking at this - in November of 2023 - I am struck by the prescience of this production company, and the uncommon lucidity of Anthony Burokas in presenting so vividly and so clearly, what they are doing. This video remains the best single introduction to NDI that I have seen.
How brown is your nose right now?
Hi Anthony - this video inspired me to use NDI in live streaming of high school sporting events which I do as part of my timing/results business. This fall we did live streams of HS cross country races using the Mevo Start cameras placed around the race course feeding back to a central hub running vMix. The beauty of NDI is everything is on the network. And even better in that I can use Ubiquiti products to create remote camera stations that are far away.
At one of my events we had 7 Mevo Start cameras around the race course and at the awards podium. All of them were connected via NDI. 4 of them were remote cameras placed 160 to 250 meters away from the central hub using Ubiquiti NanoBeam AC units for signal transmission - line of sight point-to-point ethernet bridges. In addition our timing/results systems were also connected to the network so we could display timing data and results on the live stream - overlays onto the video. The one downside is the Mevo Start cameras and their small sensor and max 1080 x 30fps resolutions and being NDI/HX. For the price they work. There are higher quality cameras out there but also more $$$$ and high school sports are not big budget. What is key is having a hard wire internet connection which we had and solid download/upload speeds. Plus Cat 6a cabling. I have tried doing live streams with vMix and my NDI Mevo cameras over the Verizon cell network using a Cradlepoint modem/router and unfortunately it just doesn't work as well - plus you can blow through a data plan quickly. Thanks again for your insights into NDI.
Here's a link to one of our videos.
czcams.com/video/34f58neUApE/video.html
Thanks Anthony, a great NDI demo for the CX350.
Thank you Anthony from ? France ! Vmix + PTZ 4K NDI. And life is so great :)
What about delays and network bottle neck?.
@@gilmoreskeen1234 Hi. I don't have any bottle neck with 3 ptz. No delay between SDI and NDI, the image quality is almost the same. The delay comes from the software only : Vmix.
Great explanatory video thanks Anthony
Thanks for the compliment!
LOVE NDI! We've got a unique setup at the church where I work.
STAGE SEND:
Our worship leader runs the chord charts on his phone on stage, with the NDI app he casts his screen, which with ProPresenter 7 we see as a camera input and then route that to stage monitors. All wirelessly.
LIVESTREAM:
From ProPresenter 7 we send a custom lower thirds NDI signal from lyrics computer to the livestream computer running OBS combining the camera feeds. Then we broadcast the program output from OBS to an NDI output as well. Now the lyrics person can literally have a live preview of the look of the lyrics with the camera feed.
Security PC:
Our security PC is in a completely different room, and through the NDI monitor application they can watch/listen the livestream. Or in their application as a camera input!
I LOVE NDI.
NDI (and SRT) has been amazing for my productions.
The cameras at my church use traditional SDI going into an ATEM switcher. However I use NDI on the back end to move video around the control room between three vMix computers that are managing recording and streaming to multiple platforms, as well as NDI monitor setups in two locations.
When I work from home, I can use SRT to move video between the church and my home setup for remote production.
Yes, lots of tools available to us these days.
This is the best NDI overview video I've seen. Nice. Thanks for introducing Bird-Dog. I never heard of them, so my mind is blown (comms, tally, control, audio, video). Next, we need audio mixer control. Or audio dynamics control.
really great video, thanks allot, got a question about NDI and transmitting it over Wifi! you demoed that newtek connect spark, that sounds perfect, are there any other products like that available? as an alternative, is it theoretically possible to use a HDMI to NDI converter such as a bird dog mini and then out from that via NDI into a wifi router? I want to be able to keep camera position untethered from the control station, if all the cameras are going straight to the network from the camera source, do you even to have a poe switch at the control station? big thanks again, amazing, :)
Can you tell me what that magnetic(?) hot shoe mount is at 8:51??
Hi, Thanks for this video. This NDI streaming setup is awesome. Can you explain to me how do you recieve the audio into your production? And when you use different brands of encoders, the ndi latency is same or different to each brand?
Audio typically comes from an analogue house mix. Usually via a USB I/O interface and then timed out. Some NDI brands are full NDI, which is lower latency than NDI HX, and HX2 can vary depending on how you choose to encode it. So it takes testing, as it always does, to completely button up your setup.
Hello, great video, thank you very much! What is the latency of your system? Will it be usable for a live show where the PGM is broadcasted on stage screens? Usually the latency should be between one field (1/2 frame) and one frame.
The "latency" is a combination of all the factors.
In my 25 years, I've never seen a half-frame delay.
Sdi cameras will need a frame sync if no genlocked, so 1 frame.
If there's multiple camera coming in, or any non-genlocked source, the mixer will add a frame to lock the unlocked source- like a computer.
If HDMI, there's also, usually, a bit of delay with HDMI compared to SDI. It varies depending on manufacturer and which camera.
The mixer may take a litle bit for processing before output.
Then does it go to a projector that has no internal processing, because I've seen projectors add a frame.
If it's a video wall or a large format scalar, definitely add a frame for that, as it's likely also taking in multiple inputs and syncing them internally before sending them out to be displayed. .
I am also interested in knowing more about latency. Can you clarify your answer? How noticable is the delay. For example, if we add as much processing time as your setup described. If cam 1 was on program and you were feeding program back through ndi to the monitor on the camera or facing talent, would the delay be noticeable? Would there be obvious lip flap?
I really want to use NDI to send cameras from around a massive theatre then out to a projector for the audience.
@@shamusmurphy NDI is not one thing.
Today, there are about 4 flavors of NDI.
Full NDI which is the highest bandwidth and the lowest delay.
NDI HX (the first HX) is software based, Heavier H.264 compression, more delay.
NDI HX (the second version) is software or hardware based, much more variable bitrate, giving the user the ability to choose from a couple different codecs, and multiple factors put the delay variable places between Full NDI and the first HX.
Newtek is has not really called out the subtle differences between the HX variants, but because there is new HX2 hardware that wont work with orphaned HX1-capable machines, they had to clarify that there are indeed incompatibilities between new software, and stuff stuck on older standards.
So... to get to you question... How noticeable is the delay with NDI?" needs a return question? What flavor of NDI? What codec? What's topology?
Full NDI encode, decode, switch delay, full NDI encode, decode, display, will be _about_ 2 frames faster than an all HX round trip, but, again, that's depending on the capabilities of the HX2 hardware and codecs chosen.
How have you found mixing the CX350 and Birddog 4k PTZ images in a live production?
Great.
Speechkess.... tnx
Thanks!
Well for the past 9 months at church, we've been sending scriptures from laptop to pc via NDI over Wifi
Great to hear.
Hallelujah
Thanks for the video. Possible to share the specification for the NDI router. POE power. Gigabit bandwidth.
I'm using this PoE+ (af) switch.
amzn.to/3hRvKW6
With two Full NDI cameras at 100 Mbit, and my main camera using HX, I'm not anywhere near saturating my Gigabit switch.
will the panasoinc Ag-cX10 camera compare to that camera, i hear it may be tricky with it. what do you think
Not the same level of camera, which is why there is such a price difference, but also, the CX10's smaller size is certainly better for packing multiple cameras into a road case.
Will ... can you do another one NDI vs Dante AV vs ST2110 !?
I am using NDI for all video feeds and Dante Audio in a Tricaster based setup with 4 SDI inputs. Delays are minimal and easily managed. In large sports productions with 16 cameras it does not need an extender. I run a 10Gb backbone network with fiber connections for up to 500 yards. I also use it for multiple production monitors. I am not a fan of NDI/HX which has a really poor video quality. NDI/HX Wifi is useless.
So you use full bandwidth NDI correct? Have you tried NDI HX3?
Is it possible to get the NDI video from my Mevo Start running in NDI mode into an ATEM Mini Pro ? If so how should I go about doing that?
You can use a Birddog Play to receive the NDI and provide HDMI out. amzn.to/3jzFHwe
I'm setting up a livestream system for my church. I have Video Switcher with 7 video in and 7 video out. My question is how do I connect NDI LAN Cable to Video Switcher which has only SDI or HDMI port ?
Birddog Play converts NDI to HDMI. amzn.to/47eEEVR
Hello, Would you like to make a review of this unit vBoxStudio ViZion SP8 - 8 Channels NDI Switcher and PTZ Controller - Touch Screen?
Please let me know. Thanks
Sure. Just send it to me. You can find my review policy here: ieba.wordpress.com/reviewpolicy/
I have a TriCaster Mini HD-4sdi when I use NDI, it messes up the Video stream makes it jittery, the sound is all choppy and I had good internet 100up and down. When I take the NDI cames and screen capture out of the loop the video feeds works fine.
should I convert the HDMI 4k cameras to an SDI connection?
I can't answer your question specifically, but a couple thoughts based on your question, you mentioned your bandwidth up and down, however that doesn't have anything to do with your local NDI bandwidth. You need to make sure you are using a very high quality local network switch to handle multiple NDI cameras.
Later you mentioned 4K, but the mini may not be a 4K video mixer - depending on which model it is. So I don't know if you're trying to bring in 4K signals over NDI and that could be causing the issues?
Then you also talk about screen capture... So there's a lot going on.
Try adding one thing at a time to see where the issue is specifically, and then work on that.
Hey Anthony I'm deciding between getting sonnet echo 3 to hook up to my laptop TB3 to bring in 4 sdi feeds thru decline duo 2 into vmix do sports replay. Should I invest in ndi birdog system instead?
4 x 4k flex
1 x Aumox 8 Port Gigabit POE Switch, 8 Port POE
What else would I need?
My confusion is when I go to remote locations sometime the internet is not great. So does this effect the set up ndi? 100mbs for HD is this referring to local bandwidth and not Wan?
Cheers
You're bringing your own sub-network, so the "Internet" connection is you WAN, and doesn't afect what goes on on your LAN.
NDI at 100 Mbits is LAN between your devices. four 100 Mbit feeds to vMix, but then ar eyou doing replay ont he same machine that's doing the live switch, or are they two different machines.
@@IEBATechThoughts ah got you! So the 1 gig 8 port router allows for distribution of device to talk to each other and not necessarily use internet to work. So my peplink bonding router would go into WAN and then laptop, atem mini, another laptop etc would feed into the ports talk to each other. Yes repay on saw system!
So the ethernet POe LAn would feed a birdog flex on my camera converted to ndi.
@@IEBATechThoughts is it best to run ethernet from the flex to router for better connection rather than wireless for NDi?
@@markhepi7791 wired is always better, and you can power the Flex from the ethernet switch.
@@markhepi7791 Wired is almost always better, plus it can power the flex.
what the card you have in that computer i need help with getting a full set-up list. 1. Video camera that has ndi and i think sdi possibly Panasonic or Sony, 2. input card, should i build a new server computer with an nid capture card and what are 2 oprtions, maybe a usb device. Id like to have sdi possibly in as well. Anything you could help me start from scratch to build a small system that can handle maybe 4 camera inputs max. I own a sound company so audio is the easy part for us... Thanks
Best to contact a value added reseller who can not only work with you to select the right pieces for what you want to do, from a wide array of possible choices, but they can supply them too.
@@IEBATechThoughts we got nothing up here in a small Canadian town. i just have to order and hope its what i want. what is your card brand in that computer. i didnt catch what you said and cant find em.
@@IEBATechThoughts its going to be mostly small corporate meetings and a wedding here and there, so 1 -2 cameras almost all the time
@@SoundBarrierEntertainment As this is an NDI video, there are no capture cards, it's all happening over the network. Using NDI converters.
amzn.to/38QT5DN for HDMI.
amzn.to/2NcDeHP Magewell for a SDI option.
My all time question - what is the minimum internet speed to use NDI system for stream?? Do I need internet to make a connections it self without stream?
NDI is not a streaming protocol. No CDN uses NDI for ingest.
You don't need interest to connect several devices on a LAN via NDI.
Is it true that you cannot record in camera while using NDI??
I hear the new firmware update added wireless NDI to the CX350?
I have not seen that anywhere.
Hi do you have a course on how to setup all of this? I’ve started a livestream company and learning so much through channels like yours. I seem to find your setup and explanations suited to what I want to achieve for corporate meetings and sport events. I do have vmix and absolutely love it and also interested in the Panasonic C10, AG CX 190 and 280
Thank you again for sharing what you know!
Hi, I have most solutions you are looking for. You can contact me in my Instagram. @wonabe.
What Switcher do you use??
I use different switchers for different productions. big productions with remote guests require a different solution than small productions with a couple cameras, versus tutorial content with one camera and graphics.
How about dslr? Like canon eos r can you purchase an upgrade?
For the cost of what it takes to unlock HD-NDI in cameras that offer it (DSLRs don't) you can get 4K NDI with a Birddog Flex. amzn.to/3eK47Om
you did'nt showed us the switch where all these devices are communicating
What was the coupon code you used to get the license for free
We purchased the NDI license from our VAR along with the Camcorders. So it was a coupon code from our reseller to submit to NewTek proving that we had paid for the license. Not free.
Contact your local Value Added Reseller for more info.
Do I need wi fi router if I want to connect cameras only, no any other device??
No.
Did you see any video delay issues with the CX350 using NDI?
Because it's NDI HX-2 there is a bit more delay than if it was full NDI.
@@IEBATechThoughts Thanks for your reply. I just put a CX350 in production and am unable to use the NDI stream into VMiX at all. The delay is literally 1 second behind the rest of our NDI devices and doesn't match audio. I had to plug the CX-350 into a bird dog studio to make it work right now and use that over NDI as we had been with our previous Sony hvr-z7u We use 3 PTZ Optics NDI cameras along with the BirdDog Studio in our setup.
@@daviddavis4824 HX shouldn't be 1 second behind. It should be a frame or two behind the FullNDI encoders.
But using an external NDI encoder may be better because then the quality is better than the camera's internal NDI-HX, you can then also do 4K NDI (with a BD Flex amzn.to/37uFUdD) and using an external encoder allows you to also use the cameras internal recorder to record however you wish.
So let's talk latency. Are you running IMAG in any of these environments? Even at HD levels, latency has to be much more than running a digital coax signal right?
Digital Coax?
NDI latency is greater than if you were using genlocked cameras into a hardware switcher that does not have a frame sync.
These are typically very large broadcast video mixers.
MOST (52% ?) productions I see, aside from the biggest of shows, is using video mixers that have internal frame sync, and non-genlocked cameras.
There's 100 "small gig" events for each time a broadcast truck is deployed. Maybe even 1000.
In that case, NDI is very close to non-genlocked cameras, which also take a frame or more (depending on mixer) from glass to glass.
Then, if you have the opportunity to run one ethernet cable to stage and receive feeds from 5 different sources, and provide return feeds to monitors, the deployment advantages really add up.
Full bandwidth NDI latency is around 70 ms for 4K60 (50ms for HD), so much higher than SDI. I personally don't think its suitable for IMAG or any latency sensitive uses. For many things it's fine but for IMAG there are alternative AVoIP options that have much lower latency. Dante AV Ultra is around 8-10ms (
All In On NDI. I'm sorry, I assumed this video would be about NDI. Not batteries. Not 𝘵𝘸𝘰 𝘸𝘩𝘰𝘭𝘦 𝘮𝘪𝘯𝘶𝘵𝘦𝘴 (13% of the video!) on NDI registration. Very thin on actual info.
Is it true that we need a lot of bandwidth to run NDI?
No. There's Full NDI, NDI HX, NDI HX2 and Proxy. If you were doing 8 Full NDI 4K sources, then you of course will use more bandwidth than 8 HDI-HX 720p30 sources. But the difference is in the details.
@@Stream4us What's the maximum length on NDI? SDI goes up to 250ft - 300ft. Can a NDI be of such length?
@@BlessTVjm Standard ethernet networking rules apply. It's not a video signal any more. It's data on a standard local network.
@@BlessTVjm It's basically restricted by your network cable (shielding/class etc) - also when it comes to PoE, lengths are more limited, but also options like PoE injectors are available to address that.
Need to enable a Vlan to make sure it works without WiFi.
I do? Because I didn't enable a vLan, and I have WiFi running and it works.
goodby to video cables and capture cards
Very interesting but why do you have to buy a license just to use the camera. I though NDI was free to use.
I don't know the reasoning. I just know that to "activate" NDI on these cameras, you need to pay for the license.
I understand the software is free to use for end users but manufacturers have to license NDI to offer it in their products.
@@IEBATechThoughts It shows it costs 299 but then you are credited 299 because you have that camera with NDI-HX. Is this a panny only thing? can you comment on how you essentially paid 0$ for the HX enabling ?
@@SeanHunter The NDI license for the cameras was purchased from the local reseller the cameras themselves were purchased from. They give us a code to use for the purchase and installation of NDI on the web site.
I didn't want to get into all the various ways you can purchase the license in the video. I just tried to make it as straightforward as possible.
Nice, you talk about some interesting topics in the video production industry! We love what you talk about, keep it up. Anytime you are in Scottsdale reach out. If you'd like, message us @dmakproductions on Instagram and we can connect. We love what you do!
Sounds great but it's too complicated for a beginner :(
Don't give up. I'm terrible at IP and networking stuff. I picked this up in about 5 mins. A lot of software is starting to make it easy to integrate NDI
@@IAMJOELBURRIS Thank you for the encouragement ! and a happy new year !
Ya de ya da he is selling NDI stuff so his words will drip with honey in describing NDI. AHD,TVICVI and SDI can be transported over Ethernet and fiber optics,so NDI being license is a bummer for you can transport all these video formats over network without restrictions.
What these competing formats are doing is lying to the consumer about interoperability to sell at exorbitant cost.
Anthony is not a reseller.
He sells nothing.
But explain to us how _you_ move SDI, etc, over your local area network?
We step into NDI when a serious solution arrives to the Mac.
I gave up waiting because I wanted to make money today, and spend less money on the machine to do it.
I cannot recall the amount of compatibility issues we encounter when we have to integrate the clients Apple/MAC devices into an NDI or production workflow.
In fact, we have converted many of our clients over to PC and they absolutely love the flexibility.
There are significant and valid reasons why companies like Vmix stay well away from the constrained Apple OSX ecosystem.
i think panasonic ndi code for 350 is ridicously expencive
Well, it's $299, but I agree. After paying $3,700 for the camcorder, to then have to pony up another $300 to activate NDI in the camera is bothersome. But then, PTZ Optics activation is $600, so, Panny's is half of that. You can see a few other prices in my Birddog Flex video.
czcams.com/video/qqO_oOW1hwk/video.html
Another thing to consider is that these activations are for HD only.
If you want 4K video, then you'll still need an external converter and then, adding the Birddog Flex for $399 (yes, it's $100 more) delivers FULL NDI, lower latency and higher quality than the camcorder's HX, it delivers full 4K, delivers tally, coms, and a whole lot more. amzn.to/3ngjIH3