I read your Undertale hot takes...
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- čas přidán 4. 11. 2023
- Asking Twitter for hot takes would never backfire, would it...?
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This video is very inspired by this recent video from Uncle Dane, please make sure to check him out! • I Read Your TF2 Hot Ta...
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Music -
Undertale & Deltarune OST by Toby Fox / Materia Collective
TWITTER - / shayy_tv
TWITCH - / shayy
DISCORD - / discord - Hry
I didn't put this in the video but just as a precaution, obviously, do not attempt to contact anybody mentioned in the video. this is all for fun at the end of the day!!
Nice video man keep going :)
Don’t want anyone commenting second because that’s annoying
i'll contact whoever i want L
@@Zakko-yumélol
lol
"We need more flawed female characters" you guys couldn't even handle Alphys.
Alphys has her flaws and be brought up arguably the most of all the main characters (Flowery is the main villain he doesn't count and even then the Dreemurs are weird about this) and she is probably the 2nd to last on overall popularity.
God damn it.
god. get this to top comment NOW.
@@clawcakes2was my top comment so
"We need more flawed female characters, whose flow isn't experimenting on dead people in a secret lab"
YEAH!! god i will never shut up about how the fandom treats alphys and toriel especially when one of the main messages of the game is that people are complex and not one dimensional, and yet a good chunk of the fandom (at least at the height of the game) ignored that and simplified everyone down to one personality trait
why does asgore get more sympathy than toriel?? why do people think alphys is just an anxious, selfish weeb??
We need a "all neutral ending tier list" its gonna be incredible
oh shit thanks for the free content idea that sounds like a fun video
@@ShayyTV Does it get ranked on how good the outcome is (for example things like King Mettaton towards the bottom, Flawed Pacifist and maybe Dog Ending at the top), or how much you like the outcome story-wise (for example Aborted Geno is my favourite because Alphys is able to grow as a person when the world has no other choice, even though she has much worse fates in comparatively way better circumstances, even though the way to get the ending is one of the worst).
@@ShayyTVHELL YEAH
Mtt paradise s tier
We also need an mtt body part tier list
sans isn’t an overrated character, he is incredibly written, the fandom just took it too far. i feel like his character is incredibly complex and i love it.
People like to flatten his character to either "angy superpowerful god who can kill you in a snap" or "the haha funny bone man says jokes and doesn't take anything seriously". He's neither of those things and his canon character and personality are fascinating and definitely worthy of dissection.
@@spotlightanimation6719TS!Underswap absolutely falls into the latter. Lmao
@@joannamother2432 I have no idea what that is lmao
@@spotlightanimation6719agree. I love sans, but fanon has changed people’s perception of him. Most people who dislike sans really dislike fanon sans or just his popularity.
i think that flowey is more complex, so flowey deserved more attention.
“Undyne has no backstory!”
Papyrus literally just appeared
This is my favorite comment
Undyne is given a backstory on how asgore took her under his wing.
Sans and Papyrus fucking spawned in snowdin lol
Fun fact : This is true. And i love it.
yeah but the intention behind the papyrus and sans just appearing is what differs between a weak backstory of asgore just taking undyne under his wing and now she a the strongest royal guard. so it’s not that she has no backstory, it’s just the fact her backstory isn’t interesting or important. the bros backstory at least adds lore, mystery, or details about them and the world
papyrus talked with flowey
About Undyne's backstory: imo not every character has to have a complicated or whatever backstory. Just like irl - sometimes people just are and it's okay! It's not necessary to have a tragic or epic story behind you, you can live without it and still be awesome.
Completely agreed, and also one thing about Undyne's backstory and it's lack I like is the fact she has an eyepatch.
That gives us the feeling that the backstory does exist, the character doesn't exist in a vaccuum. We just don't learn it because it's not important, it's a closed story.
If a character doesn't have a backstory, I still like when they have some things that hint at it existing, that hint that they did have a past, just like everyone else, just one that's not important to the main story.
def agree you dont have to give a character an epic backstory to make them a good character
The people at Snowdin literally said that Sans and Papyrus just spawned one day, so It’s only fair
I don't think she needs to have a tragic backstory or anything, but it would be cool to know more about her pre game :)
characters can honestly get away with having no backstory at all. i know quite a few characters who have very little, if anything known about them, and are still fandom favorites. shit, sans and papyrus apply to this. theyre described as basically having spawned into snowdin one day lmao.
I find annoying little shit characters genuinely endearing in their own way, and I think their personalities add to the overall charm of a game. I enjoy Berdly. I enjoy Zote. I will not apologize.
And how do you feel about Jerry?
berdly is my favourite deltarune ch2 side character and I will fight the haters
I also love Berdly mainly because of the snowgrave route
Cant wait for hollow knight zoteboat
LOL Same. I think I've always loved Berdly, and I'll admit I got so happy when I saw him play a prominent role in Ch2! It also made Snowgrave that much more shocking to me personally. I was honestly confused when I noticed people actually hating him, bc I just thought he was endearing lol
“Undyne has no backstory!” mf’ers when you ask them to name a single detail about Sans and Papryus’ backstory (They literally just appeared in Snowdin one day).
Funny thing is, this is the biggest response to that hot take, and as you can see in the video it says 1/2, and the second comment is about the skelebros. I wished shayy had shown it lol
“B-but sans Lab”
Ill give you a hint of why they treat her that way and not sans or papyrus. It starts with miso and ends with gyny
@@kbnurie A rediculous and baseless accusation. When people complain about a lack of back story for Undyne, I think what they really mean is that she lacks a relatable motivation. Papyrus is lonely and becomes a part of the royal guard because he hopes that people will like and respect him, and then he doesn't have to be lonely anymore. Sans clearly does have strong motivations, but they are kept mysterious, which actually makes him more interresting (to some people, anyway). Undyne, meanwhile, just wants to beat up bad guys for justice, or something. It makes it difficult to empathise with her is what I'm saying.
@@Foggeer-von-DreitveldI see why people don’t like undyne that much
But I feel like not every major character needs a backstory
Though every other major character in undertale does have some sort of backstory and that makes undyne a bit of an outlier
I’m fine with it
Like bro let a character exist
Room Temperature Take: Mettaton NEO should’ve been actually hard. The mettaton EX fight had such incredible ideas so it’s sad that mettaton NEO didn’t build on those ideas.
I kind of agree with this. I do like how it shows how strong in LV we are, but at least have him tank a hit or two and tease us with some hard patterns. It would still show how powerful we are at that level because it would be a short fight, though probably have Neo leave us with low health or something. Then again, I think that would also take away the surprise from the Sans fight 😅
Agreed. I get why, I get it's supposed to show how ridiculously powerful the player is at this point, but it's still disappointing.
I'm understand both sides of the argument and am just on the fence. Mettaton NEO has so much potential for a boss fight. Mettaton EX doesn't actually want to kill you I don't think since Mettaton likes humans. But in the genocide route you are not human. And you are not a monster. You are an abomination. A force of nature given determination. And so he can go all out. And it also would add to Alphys' reputation as a scientist, demonstrating how powerful of a machine she can create.
But on the other hand, I find it symbolic in that the only two enemies who can stand up to you are the two most determined (non-amalgamates) in the game. Undyne becomes so determined just on her own she melts like the amalgamates did. And Alphys had to inject quite a bit of determination into the amalgamates before that happened (I think, having read the lab entries). Sans never fights you in any other route. Not even if you kill Papyrus, because he knows it doesn't matter and you'll probably reset everything afterwards. But in genocide, he knows you (probably) won't reset everything and will delete the world (or whatever he, Undyne, and Chara are talking about). And so with all of reality at stake, his determination to make you stop is enough to push past his apathy. He knows he can't ever permanently kill you. But he can annoy you, frustrate you, and whittle down your determination until you finally give up.
Mettaton by contrast doesn't know the true fate of the world, and his motivations lie in... his tv program or something. I honestly don't know for certain, but he certainly isn't as determined as Undyne.
So ya. On the one hand it could've been an amazing boss fight. But on the other hand, it highlights that no artificial weapon can match the power of determination. The only thing that can defeat determination is more determination.
this is very hot, do you really want Mettaton Neo AND Sans, Two Very Hard Bosses?? also, the whole point of it isn't just to show that your super strong, it's to show that you aren't human anymore. Mettaton NEO is specifically designed to eradicate humans but killing him in one hit shows that you aren't human anymore, that you're a monster. a literal monster.
@@PurpuriteRite We already have 2 very hard bosses, Undyne and Sans, and I don't want a snooze fest.
Markiplier quit undertale for like 7 years after release and specifically cited the fandom for being the reason why he quit because they wouldnt just let him play through neutral
which is so funny because technically neutral is the intended way. youre "supposed" to kill a few monsters here and there, and then when you beat neutral, you figure out you couldve saved everyone, reset, go back and play it pacifist. everyone who played the game initally who jumped right into pacifist wrecked that part of the game.
He did not quit for 7 years. Undertale is only 8 years old.
@@pancakes8670 5 years then. The point was that he didn’t finish his playthrough until long after undertale was the hottest thing on CZcams
I was thinking about that a lot during this video. They say "Play Undertale" but they mean "Come meet my friends!" and get upset when it turns out that Undertale is actually a video game.
Hot take: some people in the UT famdom are ruining UT for people who just want to have fun.
I'd argue Asgore got shafted more than Undyne. Undyne might have less backstory than Asgore, but Asgore has a miniscule amount of screen time compared to her. Granted, he is the last boss, so its understandble.
He doesn't even have merch :(
@@genericname2747I would love some Asgore merch
Yeah but I think both of them got shafted soo much more than anyone else like it ain't even close
Also I think he get some backlash too. I am sad because I apreciate the idea of flawed character.
Also he is A LOT more hated
When I say I like Asgore most replies call me child murderer/bad person and I also get a few death threats :)
I love this fandom man
I kinda wonder if Ruins being a "weaker" area may have been intentional, in a way. I've always thought that the point of the early game is to make it seem like attacking things and defeating them through damage wouldn't have any meaningful consequences so that your expectations can be subverted later. It's why enemies' sprites when spared look as though they've been defeated instead of looking like, happy or something; if you haven't killed anything (or haven't been paying attention that felled monsters turn to dust) you'd assume "Oh, this is probably the same sprite that's used when you defeat them with damage, so the game probably doesn't distinguish much between winning via mercy or winning via fighting." You're asked whether you prefer butterscotch or cinnamon and then given a butterscotch cinnamon pie to make it seem like your choices don't actually impact anything. With the Napstablook fight, your choice actually _doesn't_ matter, and if you "kill" him, the game makes it very clear that you didn't cause any real harm. A less distinct backdrop behind it all better lends itself to the idea that it's a more typical, unassuming RPG.
Of course, all of this is in service of the Toriel fight; given how much the game has indicated that fighting is totally fine, when you run out of act options, it's the next most obvious place to turn. I mean, worst case scenario, if she gets to a sliver of health and nothing happens, you can try something else, right? But then she suddenly takes way more damage then you expect and dies. And then Flowey taunts you, saying you can't take back your actions. Oh yeah, there wasn't a save point after the fight, so you can just go back and try again, knowing now that fighting will actually kill her. Then you try hitting spare a bunch, having run out of options, and you manage to save her. But then Flowey outs you for what you did. And now all of a suden this game you thought you've gotten the hang of was actually two steps ahead of you the whole time.
...I got a little bit off track there, but I've been thinking this for a while and needed to get it out. Point is, I think there's a lot of depth to the design of the Ruins that kinda gets wasted when every single person who plays the game is told to do the Pacifist route immediately.
"if she gets to a sliver of health and nothing happens, you can try something else, right? But then she suddenly takes way more damage then you expect and dies. [...] Then you try hitting spare a bunch, having run out of options, and you manage to save her. But then Flowey outs you for what you did."
This is what happened on my first blind playthrough back in 2016 and I absolutely loved it.
I didn't kill any monster, but previously I could hit monsters a bit and then spare them when they're low without breaking pacifist, I thought that's what I had to do with Toriel. Oh boy, was I in for a surprise.
This is the most vivid moment of that game I remember and it's a shame more people haven't experienced that interaction. That was what opened my eyes, made me realize "oh shit this game's meta" and hooked me in.
Btw just in case any indie game devs/level designers read this, here's a good advice:
When you finally finish every single level in your game, go back to the first one, remove it and recreate it from scratch. Your first level is always the first experience a player sees, the most important few minutes of your game.
Some games make a lazier approach and just include a snippet of last level at the very beginnign (cough Serious Sam 4), which like also kinda works, but it's better to just recreate the first level again.
@@kuba4ful Or just design the first level last. That's what Miyamoto did when designing the first Super Mario Bros game.
@Tyrannigon64 you literally described my thoughts while i was fighting toriel on my first playtrough.
@@kuba4fulyep, I think that was intentional so you would use act more than just attacking monsters in order to spare
Hot take: Whenever somebody has a "hot take" they only think it's hot because people get pissed off at them for being so smugly and blatantly wrong
I hate the term for a couple of reasons but its both funny and sad to me how its always either a fairly normal and understandable opinion thus defeating the use of the term in the first place or just straight up wrong and they are being an actual idiot rendering it all completely useless.
@@DetarakoRaxSome of these hot takes are kinda like:
Sans is overrated
Chara is bad person
Gaster is mistery
Mad Mew Mew is not trans
Alphys is evil
Lancer is the knight
And so on and so fourth
@@AllanGuiHaya70 lancer is the knight is a new one
@@DetarakoRaxBut how can you be so sure that the take is objectively wrong, as oposed to somthing that's contrivercial but objectively true?
@@agsilverradio2225 Because from what I've witnessed (from different communities because im speaking in a general sense) they have gotten actual factual information wrong.
16:55 I agree that young UT fans backseat first time Let's Players way too hard, but there's something interesting to consider here in terms of how the YT ecosystem worked back then (I've had this in my mind for a while now, and I'm not sure if anyone will even understand my ramblings, but I just want to finally get them out there)
Back when UT released, it was way more common for content creators to crank out Let's Play videos daily, for extended periods of time (At least, that's what it feels like to me, it seems like longform content that's semi-infrequent, but much more densely packed is a lot more common nowadays)
The thing with that kind of daily schedule is that content creators are people with their own busy lives outside the internet, so it was fairly common for creators to check out a game for one video, maybe two, but then completely abandon it. And honestly, it's not really something I can be that mad about. Taking the time to record enough content to maintain a daily schedule, then EDITING said content is a hell of a process to follow on top of real life.
That being said, it still kinda stings when a content creator you enjoy ditches a playthrough out of necessity. I remember there were a few times when Jacksepticeye made one-off videos on games I thought seemed neat, and I was left thinking "Man, I'd love to see the rest of these playthroughs, but he's got other things to focus on, these games are probably 'finished' now"
So, with the knowledge that content creators had crazy strict schedules in 2015, added onto the fact that a major part of UT involves taking the time to discover the existence of other endings on your own (Which, while UT is indeed a short game, the discovery process/experimentation itself still takes a decent bit of time), I personally think it makes a bit more sense why young UT fans were way too vocal with how they wanted people to play the game.
Like, to (hopefully) put this into perspective, think about how easy it would've been for the most iconic parts of Jacksepticeye's UT playthrough to just, not exist. At all.
I don't think the fear of a creator's abandonment of media that people enjoy is entirely unjustified, though I can't say the same about how fans cope with it
You again...
Something to add about the community especially back then was covered in detail in Supereyepatch Wolf's video on what the Internet did to Undertale, and something pointed out that the emotional impression Undertale left on its fans is a lot for what most would probably only play for 20 hours tops to get, assuming you did a Neutral, True Pacifist, and Geno run. So of course when something is that influential emotionally to someone, when somebody with differing world views is noticed doing something described as "wrong" to you or me ect, that internal urge to protect or defend it ect kicks in, and well there also was definitely a lot of teens and children in the community (even now, I joined in 9th grade around the 3rd anniversary and remember randomly seeing 101Leafy, somebody I mainly watch for Level-5 game related content, playing it live on Halloween, and definitely know that even tho I'm now an adult, there's other kids and teens playing both Undertale and Deltarune for the first time)
Christopher, Christopher, Christopher, good to see you again
I feel like I have seen you before…
@@DeterminedBlade Christopher Moon is well known for commenting on Undertale videos
I don't like Berdly, but I do think he's a good character. His purpose in the story is to _be_ annoying, and he absolutely succeeds with that -- Queen outright states that there's nothing wrong with him he's just annoying. And also he still gets to have some character development, which is a big redeeming thing about him for me. Like he's still a pretty self-absorbed character, but we get to see why he becomes that and he realizes he doesn't actually love Noelle (even though he thinks she does but that's a different matter), and he does end up listening to Ralsei in the end.
I should hate him but somehow I love him
He's a good character
I hate and love him, plus his theme is a banger.
Also he's funny
He's the uhm ackshually nerd emoji personified but he's really funny and yeah, you're right. There's literally nothing wrong with him except being really annoying. You could also chalk that up to his ego being massively overinflated after that spelling bee and never wanting to go back down as the lonely blue bird who nobody knows.
After i did pacifist first, I wanted to try some netrual routes because i wanted specific endings before I'd think about trying genocide, (I'd already seen a geno and pasiv playthrough) and let me tell you this, i was *absolutely heartbroken* by these routes, when i killed papyrus in one ending i checked the dialogue and everyone in snowdin got so much sadder and uneasy all the sudden and they didn't know why, and undyne's "WHAT DID YOU DO TO HIM!" surpasses sans' grief to me and made me feel horrible, another one where i killed undyne where she was screaming "I WON'T DIIIEE!" As she melts to death is absolutely horrible to find and i almost cried, i felt absolutely dreadful when i killed the dogs and another where i failed the flying cooking show mini game on purpose because i wanted to get past it fast and alphys was apologizing and getting nervous and mettaton steped in for her and lied about them being on an ad break so he wouldn't hurt us, i clutched my heart because i felt worse about killing him later on and he still routes for you to win after you kill him, (plus you see his robotic corpse with the dialogue "it's unfixable" afterwards)
Neutral routes hit me 10x harder than the geno route because rarely anyone talks about them.
Also adding a little bit to your comment, neutral Undyne is THE ONLY big boss where she doesn't smile while dying, that makes me super uncanny
I'd legit say "bozo get better ☠️☠️☠️☠️☠️" until I'd play and just mercy 💀
The irony 🥐🥐
I find It pretty funny how on the Dead Papyrus ending Asgore ALSO dies but even then everyone just stands up to Papyrus' grave and he’s the focus
It hurts to damage monsters in Undertale. Thats why i only do pacifist.
Everybody seems to not realize just how powerful Asgore really is in the grand scheme of things, he shows knowledge on saves/loads, has been PROVEN able to dodge, and is able to outright shatter a Gameplay element near PERMANENTLY. I wish people gave him more attention rather than the actual weakest character in the game. More Asgore fan games should be made, that's my take.
Just the fact that Asgore can manipulate game elements puts him on the level of the skelebros everyone loves to talk about.
This also pulls in the possibility that almost any monster, including a random one like a Vegetoid, can push themselves to such extremes that the fights start to tire them, but you are getting blasted many times before you win. Asgore is not putting in all of his effort and he can still casually do what likely takes all the wind out of Sans. There's a good chance most monsters can, if they're told.
I think it would be a fun thing if, despite struggling so hard against Sans, and finally getting past with tricks beyond the book (that random knife swing was cheating), the ending to your Gen. run was Asgore killing you no matter what. Either one that's legitimately impossible or necessitates the help of Flowey. Asgore could've given you a huge roadblock even if he didn't utilize the human souls (and he probably wouldn't).
I like the implied detail in that that makes it clear Asgore is done with living. He could just steal the soul, or concoct a new, impossible, inescapable twist on battling, but instead he just makes it metaphysically impossible to back down, and is killed by Flowey, killed by a less merciful human, or he kills himself because he knows he ruined his life with his grief. He sincerely wants death, and is pinned to his body by a rash declaration.
@@iantaakalla8180 In the neutral runs, after you defeated omega flowey, if you reload, fight him again and spare, he kills himself to let you leave.
@@flipr52they know, they literally mentioned asgore doing that in the comment
@@kreatona4219 It appears my lack of sleep has caught up to me.
3:48 Personally when first chapter of Deltarune came out I thought the "choices don't matter" is more of a meta way of Toby Fox saying to not expect story that heavily depends on choices like Undertale was, but instead a more linear experience.
I agree. He even put out a statement a long time ago telling people that if they're expecting another "Undertale" experience, then they're in for disappointment. But rather, he wants us to expect something new.
@@pancakes8670Yeah, cuz in ch-1 your choices doesn't really impact that much and in ch-2, well, kinda. But there is still no neutral route. Only pacifist and geno/snowgrave. Neutral = pacifist at least until now.
As an autistic person, I really love Berdly and sympathise with him a lot. I get him. I get what it's like to be seen as "annoying" by everyone, even if you don't know how you're perceived. I know what it's like to be awkward, loud, and very passionate about things you like (i.e. video games). I understand the pressure to be on top, to be smarter then everyone else. And it really sucks to see a character I'm so attached too be so widely hated. Of course, everyone can have their own opinions, and I just wanted to state mine :o)
Same!! Autistic Berdly gang rise
I'm not entirely sure if I'm nd but I get anxious seeing a 93 in my gradebook so I can definitely relate to Berdly in the need to be at or near the top
He's just kind of a dick on purpose though
Berdly's character is so entangled the ND experience that I would be surprised that he wasn't ND.
Maybe just don’t be so annoying? Autism doesn’t mean you HAVE to be obnoxious or be “trying to be on top” over everything.
5 years ago my brother handed me his switch and said "play this". He then refused to elaborate and I love him for it, I got to enjoy a neutral ending, discover the true pacifist ending, and decide to not kill all these characters I now loved. Thanks bro
W brother
@@Watermelon_King1agreed
Hot take: Prunsel is a criminally underrated character. I dunno why people don't talk about them more often tbh
I guess it's because he's mentioned much less in the game compared to some other characters, sort of the way people will ignore Alphys despite her being plot relevant in order to focus on other characters that are "cooler" like Gaster. In Prunsel's case people mention Papyrus WAY more than him.
@@oraora8504to this day I don't know who papyrus is everyone describes him as someone just like prunsel I'd guess that's a fun value Easter egg? I've never found a papyrus
Who is Prunsel???
Who ?
@@flubbcat4267you don’t know 😭
It'd be fucking cool if there was a secret boss that used the green soul and made the fight a rhythm game
I really hope the secret bosses have unique fighting mechanics!
Mother 3 does this but for the entire game
I’d love that!
If we go by the Flowey order then the green soul is next!! I'm very exited because that's one of my favorites!
But if it's by gameplay order then *PURPLE* (NOT PINK UNDERTALE FANDOM!!!!!) is next (my other favorite!)
you should play undertale yellow :3
Honestly, I feel like it's Kris' choices are the ones that don't matter due to the soul controlling them and Kris obviously not wanting to be controlled
I feel like that kinda plays into how Kris's actions at the end of the chapter tend to be so, well, extreme. We don't particularly have a good idea of what Kris does after Ch1 unless you think they're the knight (I'm mixed on that myself) but after Chapter 2, Kris slashes their own mother's tires and creates a dark fountain. I think this is out of desperation. They make extreme choices because their choices don't matter. They do literally anything they can do to make their choices matter or have some effect, some control over their life.
@@samgeorge1452 yeah, that's kind of what I mean, and personally, I don't think Kris is the knight, I feel like it'd be a cool concept to have the hero also be the villain, but from how it stands currently, I think Kris just does things out of desperation as well
@ScoutMainingMomento yeah if you were a kid manipulated by a weird heart thing and saw the dark worlds making people he knows better, him spreading a dark world makes a lot of sense, i think rouls or a character we dont know yet is the knight
@@riroufudo they
@@samgeorge1452 ok
To expand on Undyne being the least developed character, there genuinely feels like a piece of her character arc is missing. To me, Undyne would feel like a more complete character if she apologized to Papyrus near the end of the game. Something that really bothers me about the game is that Undyne and Papyrus appear to have a very genuine and healthy relationship, but the entire relationship is built off of a lie. Undyne promises Papyrus that all these whacky tests will make him a royal guardsman, but in none of the endings does this really come full circle, it feels like a loose thread.
Yes, I am aware that she has good intentions, but her reasoning is flawed at best. Considering every other member of the Royal Guard is a fucking dog that pampers you with kisses if you lift your hand even slightly, I don't understand why Papyrus can't be in the guard under the notion of being "too nice". If anything, Papyrus is actually the only doing his job correctly because he's the only monster that captures you instead of killing you so you can be escorted to Asgore. He actually has some restraint, unlike Undyne herself who will swing on you no matte what.
Going back to the "too nice" point, she gives Papyrus mad shit because he became your friend instead of capturing you. What I expected to happen afterwards was her to be like "hey wait a minute" and realizing she is literally doing the exact same thing. Even going as far as to call you her bestie. This should have been the moment she realized the way she treated Papyrus was wrong even though she had good intentions in her heart. Hell, in Asriel Dreemurs fight you can have her have better dialogue. Maybe something like "You'll never know he truth." or "He can't know." It would have felt like a significantly better and complete character arc than "not all humans are bad I guess" and is something I'm genuinely surprised isn't addressed in Undertale, it feels like Toby legit just forgot. I'm assuming he thought the Alphys love arc was enough to round out her character, but Undyne doesn't struggle with her feelings for Alphy's the same way Alphy's does for Undyne.
Overall, as much as i love Undyne, I feel like she's missing something to truly round her out.
Dorked actually made a really good video on it. I wonder if you’ve watched it.
You are so absolutely right about everything. The moment Undyne's house burned down would have been perfect for her to realize the hypocrisy of her actions. I don't think it's bad writing, because she's consistent in not wanting to apologize if she believes she doesn't have to, but she should have had a complete arc.
I want to see a fan comic about papyrus finding out undyne would never let him be a royal guard this would obviously affect papyrus because one that was his dream and two he looked up to undyne a lot
Let’s all be honest, If Undyne told Papyrus that he would have never been Royal Guard after getting to the Surface, he would say
“Alas, poor Papyrus” and fly to his home on the surface like nothing really happened
@@rigboy1234 The point isnt whether or not Papyrus would forgive her, obviously he would. The point is Undyne should have grown as a character by admitting to her best friend that she had wronged him and that she's sorry.
ngl i think geno route is so grindy partly cuz its meant to bore u and make u question why ur doing it but it also desensitizes the player to killing all of the monsters cuz theyre just tryna get it over with; like how frisk becomes desensitized to it and starts creeping everyone out as implied in dialogue. idk though
i guess the issue though is that most people don't really do it for the narrative or grinding but rather more to get to the two extra fights, i think going into the game knowing about those sorta undermines the geno route and it's a little unfortunate sans's boss fight sorta became a gaming icon because of it
I love that you described it like that
Makes it quite funny
The thing is, the game play being shit having narrative importance, at the end of the day, does not make the game play less shit. Hence, people complaining about game play being shit are justified in complaining about shit game play.
I do think that's also part of the point. It also makes you cheer and celebrate when you finally manage to kill characters you really love like Sans and Undyne. Then you realize exactly what you're celebrating and what you have to show for your victory.
@@Foggeer-von-DreitveldAt the end of the day, games are art. You don't have to like this artistic choice, but it makes sense regarding the themes of the game, there was clearly a purpose for it playing like this that no other gameplay would've been able to support. If it was just like another fun route you can do, the entire message of the game would've crumbled and the narrative as a whole would be completely destroyed, not really a choice there. There's a difference between criticizing something and just saying you don't like it as to criticize something is to say it should have done something different which it really couldn't have without just being a different game
My hot take: Sans doesn't drink ketchup, he did it once for the bit!!! "But what about the condiments at the station and snowdin!!1!!!1!" It's for his hotdog cart! He asks frisk if they want ketchup, they say no, and being the comedian he is, decides to drink it for the bit! The fact that it's one of his only personality traits people say when they think of sans. (besides being lazy but that's actually canon) It's not like people make alphys' personality trait that she likes seaweed ice-cream, and it's canon that she eats the stuff! It's just so genuinely annoying to see people think of sans and papyrus as 'the funny tumblr sexyman that drinks ketchup' and 'the innocent spaghetti one'
Fun fact! the ruins was actually designed the way it was intentionally! Toby wanted the first area of the game to not be as poggers as the rest so players would be surprised by how good the rest of it is!
Love how you described it as "Not as Poggers"
I get where he's coming from with that but it's also the most severely self sabotaging thing an artist could possibly do to their work. If Toriel wasn't such a good character, the game would have never gotten off the ground.
I unironically like Ruins only because of the music and meaning to the narrative.
I mean, the game took off massively, so obviously it worked, but I do agree that that's self sabotage lmao. Toby already made Frisk's sprite look bad on purpose to lower expectations, I think that would be enough
Hot take : Flowey and Asriel are the same person, the fanbase should stop seperating the two
On one hand I do agree and think people gotta acknowledge that... On the other, how da heck do you got an Asriel who behaves like Flowey without it looking out of character?!
@@hiddenflare6169That’s the best part, the dude’s got a nice facade for his evil facade which is used to cover up his actual niceness and broken state. Also I think that he’s so conscientious he actually hyperbolized his evil traits sooo much to rationalize his own behaviour in his lost-in-madness and derealisation induced state of mind, which is REALLY in character for a nice and kind child like him who just couldn’t handle it.
@@hiddenflare6169 Flowey canonically spent a lot of time trapped in his own resets. Even taking his own life in some of them but being unable to die.
In his own words.
I did everything, I killed everyone,
I saved everyone.
He went absolutely crazy after thousands of hours of the same thing over and over and over.
That would drive everyone crazy. Including Asriel.
Well yes, but actually no, I think it's mostly different identities rather than persons
When my friend and I would write our own stories with undertale, Asriel was older and only turned into Flowery when he didn’t want to deal with his emotions. We were like….fourteen when we first wrote it but it was a cool idea at the time.
the tiny fraction of homophobic Undertale fans is just like the tiny fraction of transphobic Celeste fans, because I don't understand how either exist
Like yea how does that even happen
I'm unironically convinced homophobic Undertale fans didn't even play the game
I did
@@definetlynotamainacc8773?
Same with homophobic Splatoon fans. Are the bigots lost or something? I don’t understand.
About Undyne, I feel like she doesn't need a big backstory or an intricate character development. The point of her character is somewhere else. For instance, Alphys is all about depression and healing from numerous traumas because of social pressure and stuff. But Undyne is all about these strong "I'll protect my friends!" emotions, the fact that she'll grow as a person to be the greatest hero monsters can rely on.
The fact that Toby was willing to give Samuel his $1k back because of the backlash really does show how great of a person Toby is and the fact it actually came to that is just pathetic. Samuel helped Toby and Undertale in a big way with his donation (it was the highest, iirc,). He didn't deserve to be harassed or hated. Also people saying killing him doesn't affect pacifist runs are dumb and spiteful. Thankfully most people are more accepting of him nowadays.
Plus there are people in the Undertale community who are into way weirder and in some cases, even worse things than Samuel was.
Damn,people compared So Sorry to Jerry? That’s unfortunate
“That’s the point” is the bane of my existence when discussing media in general
We really need better critical thinking skills taught in school. That'd make media discussion easier
That's the point dosen't mean I can't have a problem with the point.
@@kaleeshsynth9994Oh, so you have a problem with Undertale's thematic core? That's so interesting! Please tell me more about that.
I think it's a perfectly valid criticism to want Geno to be more engaging, but I personally think it's fine how it is because Undertale is, more than anything, designed as a piece of interactive art rather than an entirely conventional video game. The geno route actively discouraging the player at every turn isn't supposed to make you feel bad for just killing the monsters, it's supposed to make you feel bad for doing it *just to see what would happen,* and I think that it's a very brilliant design idea that stops working as well when you try to engage with it like any other conventional video game. The route wasn't designed with the idea of it being replayed or even necessarily finished, which is more than evident by the two main bosses being skill checks that make the average player who gets stuck on them for hours question why they're doing any of this. I wish there was more discussion rather than a binary back-and-forth about it, it's really interesting design that mostly gets overlooked because Twitter isnt exactly the best place for discussions to happen.
TL;DR: Geno is wonderfully crafted as a piece of art, but gameplay-wise it could absolutely stand to be more engaging. I just wonder if there's a way to improve it without sacrificing the artistic integrity...
Agreed, I think it’s kind of silly to criticize the genocide route as if it was a conventional video game when that’s not really what the genocide route is trying to be in the first place
I think taking a page from Snowgrave's book would do wonders to fix the gameplay of genocide, that being monsters actually appearing on the map and running away. It creates a much bigger "Oh god, what am I doing?!" feeling than monsters just taking longer to appear.
Not having Asgore and Mettaton NEO die in one hit would also help since them going down easily doesn't feel necessary to the plot (unlike Papyrus for example who would have a much lesser impact if he fought you before dying)
I love the genocide route because ironically, it takes a lot of determination to complete
I wonder how long it took for people to find out the Genocide route even existed in the first demo of the game. And if Toby would have programmed it into the rest of the game if nobody had ever tried to grind that hard.
i like geno partially because it's a test of determination. if you can make it through geno, you can probably grind in other games
I feel like your genocide take is entirely correct from a gameplay/consumption standpoint (although i think theres a pretty good simulator online) but as you did acknowledge it is very essential to the theme of the geno route and it would not at all get the same point across otherwise, or without at least some feeling of having to go out of your way to hurt people, like the opposite of the pacifist route iirc
My personal opinion is that genocide leans a bit too much into the grind to actually hit that point home.
- I start to feel bad in Ruins because I know I can spare these monsters, but near it's end I'm just hoping for more encounters.
- In Snowdin I already sort of dread the upcoming grind but get spikes of sadness with the dogs and Snowdin and moments of creepiness when my control is taken away from me, and then Papyrus hurt me so much with his death.
- Waterfall has almost no feelings of being a monster (yeah the grind is monotonous, but at this point I'm already checked out), if anything I'm rewarded by a hype fight against Undyne.
- Finally Hotland has less moments of sadness and feeling like a horrible person like the early areas, but it's certainly one of the creepiest areas thanks to how empty it is and how all the "bosses" are cakewalks, but the grind is still there to sour it
- Then finally I reach Sans and I actually feel *punished* for what I did, not only is he hard as hell, but he knows how to trash talk you and make all your choices weigh you down (feeling your sins crawling on your back).
Ultimately I find myself agreeing wholeheartedly with Shaay's point in the video, genocide would be way better if the later areas were simply less grindy, or if the encounters were at least a bit more common, it doesn't really detract from what are the emotional highs (or in this case lows) of the route by making the killing easier, if anything areas getting easier and easier to clear would be a great way to show how you are becoming an ever more efficient killing machine, caring less and less for the lives all around you
Yes but "going out of your way to hurt people" doesn't have to be a boring grind that is tedious to play. The weird route in Deltarune handles it way better gameplay-wise since the number of fights is more reasonable and you have to chase the enemies to fight them meaning no downtime where you just hold two keys and wait (and it is even more "going out of your way to harm other characters" than waiting for them to approach you)
Sure it works thematically and it's good that it's done that way since it separates it from the weird route (both being two very different takes of a similar concept), but it doesn't make it less tedious
TL;DR there were definitely other ways to get the point across as shown in DT, but it works thematically despite it being tedious
i think it could've cut a lot of fat off during snowdin - hotland. ruins is perfect as is but after you get the "but nobody came" for the first time it doesn't hit the same past that point and it goes a bit too far in being miserable to play IMO
@@ShayyTV oh yeah I literally reset in hotland on my first run cause it was taking too long between encounters. I feel like it was to make more of a gap between the main two bosses though cause obviously muffet and mettaton don't pose a threat
"geno wouldn't be able to get the same point across without being a grind"
kid named snowgrave:
Regarding the whole "DR is better than UT" thing, that is completely correct, Toby Fox did announce on one of his development updates (I think it was the one that announced that chapter 2 would be free and the release date? I remember that it was on one that was posted pretty close to CH. 2 release) that UT was more of a test/stepping stone for DR, so technically speaking Deltarune was always supposed to be better than Undertale in some way, or I could be remembering wrong but I'm fairly certain I read that on one of his dev updates
DR has more interesting and fun gameplay (though UT's is just engaging enough), but it's also not finished yet and we don't know how anything in it will play out. Keep in mind that serialized works are prone to disappointing people, since, rather than taking in everything at once, people get time to craft their own expectations which will not necessarily be met, especially with something that's been in development for so long. Deltarune isn't completed yet so I don't know how neatly all the piece will fit together as of right now, while Undertale is an already finished story that's really strong and nothing will take away from that. This is why I still prefer Undertale (also Deltarune probably won't have as much effect on me as playing Undertale for the first time did).
Toby Fox had a dream where he was playing the ending of a game and he wanted to make it. The game was deltarune, before he had published deltarune or undertale. He made undertale as a prototype for experience, and he didn't think it would get anywhere close to where it was after release. So yeah, the ending of deltarune literally came to him in a dream. It's probably gonna be a lot better
@@EaterOfGeese Actually, I am aware of this info :3 But I think I learned it a couple days/weeks after I made this comment (I learned this through the "FNAF and Undertale How to/Not to make a story" video, or something like that)
I legit laughed out loud when the Security Breach logo faded in when talking about the plot twists still happening even if it's somewhat obvious. 10/10 XD
haha, glad that was noticed!
Most of these ""Hot"" takes are actually ice-frickin' cold
Great video, loved hearing you talk in-depth about your opinions on these!
Which One would be the Coldest
@@Mr.Brothybear 16:55
the one about future story beats in Deltrarune is so correct. If it's "obvious" where the story is going it means the writer did their job in effectively foreshadowing it. It rewards people who were looking closely at the work. If every story was just made to have twists with no setup to throw people off it wouldn't be fun(and you'd just get FNAF).
I feel like Genocide was meant to be a secret ending on par with Snowgrave or one of the various Neutral Runs, as there is so much to try to intentionally stop you from completing it, but the community blew it out of proportion and made it too big, too focused on to be seen exactly for what it is, and the reason Genocide may seem worse compared to Snowgrave is because he was unaware of the success he'd get, that people would pick it all apart layer by layer, and in Deltarune he had the retrospective, he knew people would shine more of a spotlight on any darker aspects, even if they were intentionally secrets
Well, when you have both of the strongest bosses in the game, people are going to go looking for a challenge.
It would be funny if toby had a character say "you know my brother gaster? Yeah. He recently moved to the big city. Unfortunately we probably will not see him for a long time. I hope he visits soon!" And never mentioned gaster again
Truly the Toby moment of all time
Alternatively: gaster shows up. It’s not the one we’ve been seeing in fanart and whatnot for the past decade
I think the stuff with Undyne’s backstory with Gerson is really cute
oh fuck thats right, i never hear people talk about that with undyne
Random kid befriends war veteran, very wholesome
it is charming, but i do attribute that to gerson and not undyne in my mind since it's delivered from him
16:55 - I agree with this, even though I never got a Neutral ending. But it made me feel really good to get True Pacifist ending on my first playthrough. I never used any kind of guide to get the best ending, so it made me feel a bit proud getting it on my first go. People should have the chance to find the True Pacifist ending on their own.
you have to beat neutral at least once to get the true pacifist ending, but yeah i agree.
flowey even gives you hints to get the true pacifist ending if you don’t kill him at the end of neutral, so there’s no need for people to backseat about it.
You cant beat pacifist without doing the neutral first, you just speeded up the process by doing the neutral without killing any monsters
"Mad Dummy will always turn into Mad Mew Mew"
The Genocide run:
She can get the dress and cat ears
@@CaliCosmicGal She became corporeal with her dummy body in the genocide run
also she's dead
@@DokiD0k1Forever Yeah but if you abort Geno she could still wear a mad mew mew dress and cat ears as well.
@@CaliCosmicGal thats neutral not genocide
@@DokiD0k1Forever yeah fair I was just thinking about Glad Dummy as a concept not actually geno runs
3:11 absolutely agree. He’s a good character - he was designed explicitly to be annoying, and to have a certain type of humour. He’s annoying in that way for some, but that’s honestly good design IMO
Everytime hes on screen, i want to throw a book at him, but thats the point of his character. 10/10. I am obsessed
17:30 having your first playthrough be neutral and then learning about the other routes after really makes the other routes more impactful.
Obscure comparison but it's like playing OneShot and then going back for the solstice route
it's impossible to get pacifist first time
you need to beat omega flowey before getting the pacifist undyne call
@@jaywarudoYeah, I just found out that you can even spare Flowey and that you don't even have to reset in order to get pacifist.
with berdly, queen puts it best
there's nothing wrong with him, he's just annoying
i love my boi
Presents queen universal mother theory
23:52 I actually had no idea So Sorry had a controversy, I just thought the boss fight was a goofy encounter with an awkward, dinosaur-looking artist that is only available on an interesting date number.
The “controversy” isn’t an actual controversy (hence the giant air quotes), but who the character originated from
@@themostcertified4377 I went into further research, and now I know why it’s a controversy 😬
He was like clearly a furry
Regarding the "one ending" thing it's probably gonna be like UT's neutral route where the general theme is the same but with an insane amount of variations
A big thing i hate that ties into the "oh unexplained thing must be gaster/chara" thing is when people try to connect the actions they directly did in genocide or snowgrave to some alternative menace. With genocide, there is not really anything to give the impression that chara is trying to get you to do anything until the very last choice, and with snowgrave there is absolutely nothing that could possibly point towards some other exterior force other than the player being the reason the route happened. The game is spelling it out for you that you are doing something you shouldn't. There is no magical explanation that makes you free of blame.
disagree with the idea that noelle only talks about susie. she spends more time talking about her past/her relationship with kris more than anything else id say. she mentions susie semi-often but definitely its not every second like people act like it is lmao
and when she does mention susie its usually a one-off comment when itd make sense (like joking about susie getting her a ring when shes offered one, or wondering about riding the ferris wheel with susie)
ABSOLUTELY. i'm astonished that that fella thinks noelle only ever talks about susie, like she is such a wonderful character and they managed to miss ALL OF HER.
iirc she actually only mentions Susie like 4 times before you meet up with the rest of the party. Which is very small compared to all the rest of the dialogue
@@wisdomschannels2590Also when making these statments usually the player chooses to bring susie up in which case it only makes sense to talk about her
@@memevondank1197 people when noelle talks about a conversation topic THEY brought up, not her: [angry screaming]
My hot takes:
- The Asriel bossfight and the leadup to it is too over the top. The moment where everyone walks in on Flowey and it's meant to be this big reunion of all the characters, then they get captured, oh no, and then literally everyone takes turns encouraging you by saying their catchphrase... To me that was so cheesy and clichéd I couldn't take it seriously anymore. The whole "Lost Souls" thing was a bit on the nose in my opinion as well. Narratively, it picks up on a lot of the same themes and character traits of Flowey/Asriel that were already played out in the Omega Flowey fight (he knows he's in a videogame, he can save and reload, he wants to keep playing with you, he's lost all hope for this world, he wants to start again), which makes it less emotionally impactful.
- Asgore is an incredibly complex, interesting character worth empathizing with. While the "divorced dad" jokes are funny, there's so much more than that to him and I hate that people reduce him to the violent acts he committed.
- I fucking love the True Lab. It's pretty much the most underappreciated, under-discussed part of the game and I don't understand why. Both the concept and the atmosphere are absolutely crushing - in my opinion, this is where the game does horror at its best. Especially considering it comes right after a wholesome, lighthearted dating sequence. And it's part of the pacifist run! Damn! I don't understand how people don't talk about it more. To me, it's just as captivating a story moment as the Sans fight. And it's a perfect conclusion to Alphys' character, which turns her from "awkward annoying nerd lady" into a character as complex and multifaceted as Sans.
- To me, Spamton (and to a lesser extent, Rouxls Kaard) seems like a random gimmick character inserted into the story out of nowhere. I don't like him much, because I feel like the game wants me to care or be interested in him by dropping a bunch of encounters with him here and there and scattering a bunch of lore about him for the fandom to pick up on and build hype around, when the story doesn't actually build up to it or incorporate him much.
That being said, if you disagree with me that's completely fine. I don't wanna take away from your enjoyment of this game or its characters in any way, I'm just some dude on the internet lol
W takes
You’re wrong, the Asriel Dreemurr is literally the best fight in the game.
@@somerandomperson-ih4dxmfw opinions:
@@NoahTheSillyPerson yk I’m right
I agree with everything but the First Take, it can be a Little cliché but:
1: it hits very Hard After all the time you have Passed with them
2: the cliche breaks in the point when flowey don’t fucking cares and take all the souls
Lemme check the lost souls part
14:38 my take is that we shouldn't try to push people like this out of the fandom, but instead encourage them to change their viewpoints. they already like a game that has some things that are against their views, so it might be a sign they might be more accepting with some effort. if we instead push them out, then we might just make them more jaded against the community and less likely to change.
I genuinely enjoy the games. I believe that lgbtq is a sin. I definitely agree that no one should be forced out of a fandom for believing something different than them. I believe that anyone can believe what they want, AS LONG as it is not hurting anyone. I'm okay with seeing imagery of queer couples, as it is not my choice to decide their beliefs. No one should be forced to stop believing what they believe (AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T HURT ANYONE)
@@ItsHim_and_ItsMeit dies hurt people.
@@ItsHim_and_ItsMe it does hurt people
@@Scrimblobimblo4
Those who do hurt in the name of the Lord are sinful and I do not condone those actions. I believe that God wishes none to be hurt, as he states that he loves all.
@@ItsHim_and_ItsMe objectively shit take
Shayy's Looking Like A Guy From The 1960s That Plays Guitar In A Psychedelic Band, And That's A Compliment.
give me your capslock key. now.
looks like Queen Deltarune got into the comments section again
Holy Shit Queen Deltarune Is In My Comment Section
@@ShayyTV Hello It's Me, Give Me All Your Savings.
Queen deltarune?!!!!
4:00 Always knew Susie was going to have a character arch (we have yet to see) as "your choices don't matter" feels more like her starting worldview then the fact that your character creation is "discarded" and Susie ignores you.
What if Deltarune's mantra of "your choices don't matter" wasn't referring to you, the player, but to Kris themselves?
wait..
To think that the first part of making your character things was acxtually kris’s dream and then we took over their souls therefore their actions is actuallt very interesting
You're not just cooking, you're making a damn gourmet meal!
It's not that "your choice don't matter" but rather "by choosing you remove the choice of others"
dude neutral is fire, I remember when i saw photoshop Flowey for the first time and I literally said out loud in my room “What Da Fuck?!!”
17:12 i was lucky enough to not know alot about the other routes on my first playthrough of undertale, hearing Sans tell me about the acronyms for exp and lvl was probably the most ground breaking experience for me as an 11 year old; getting to see the monstrosity that was photoshop Flowey not knowing it was coming was amazing
Neutral is highly underrated honestly, willing to say photoshop is my favourite boss
14:28 in my country probably most UT mainstream fans only are homophobic, they even get angry about canonical queer stuff in the game and prefer to headcanon it in thier way. that's why i avoid most of UT content in my native language. kinda makes me feel isolated.
16:55 As a person who killed almost every monster I encountered (not enough encounters to get genocide, I was at LV 14 by the end) and got the neutral ending, going on to CZcams and seeing that there was a good ending where you spare everyone crushed me. I was aware of the sans judgment, and that broke me too, but this was in another level. I felt guilt for a FULL DAY, only to return the next and complete pacifist.
Safe to say, this point is correct, experiencing a neutral first is much more impactful that learning about pacifist.
I feel like what a lot of people miss the No Mercy route is that, in my opinion, the "you should feel bad for killing these creatures" message should be taken separately from the game criticizing players that play through every scrap of code in the game solely because it's there, even at the expense of an objectively unenjoyable experience. But that's just me, and I do see the point about locking one of the best boss fights behind the unenjoyable experience too
I loved how he gave "you serve zero purpose" vibes when that one dude said Field of Hopes and Dreams was mid, I would have probably reacted the same lol
Lol that was me, I will say I don't think it's a terrible track all together, but some of the hype and praise some people give to it I just don't really agree with, not my kind of song 😅
@@saggywaters that's fair, it's *your* opinion after all, and I respect it. Nowadays it's really hard to express your opinion without getting literally bombarded by hate comments lol so I appreciate the courage
I think it’s a bit overrated. It isn’t the best song in deltarune like many people make it out to be. I think there have been many better area themes in both Undertale and deltarune such as another medium, core, waterfall, and pandora palace.
@@gomdgomd2268 Pandora Palace is queen mansion :)
@@MrCheese270 Thanks
Not really a hot take but I thought it would be funny if genocide was called pass-a-fist
Sans moment
“Undyne has no back story”
Papyrus: *literally just spawned in*
VS Susie is the best song in Deltarune and Your Best Nightmare is the best song in Undertale.
Even if Alphys was putting on a show to "help" you, HOW is that not objectively LESS bad than the characters you've met before - who have actually tried to physically attack and kill you like Undyne.
I agree that Alphys didn’t do much wrong to the player, but her experiments on the monsters are really messed up, so that definitely makes her one of the least moral characters overall.
@@soapinthesuitcase3115 we should include asgore on that too, he allowed that to happen on already dead people, which is what she experimented on, letting their soul survive longer with determination, and asgore knew this, both didn't know it could go wrong so it counts for both of them
But Alphys didn't tell anyone what happened and why she didn't give the dust of the monsters back (the families gave consent to it in exchange of the dust being returned, but the monsters ended up not fully dying)
@@soapinthesuitcase3115 I mean she had crippling mental health issues and is implied to have considered self-unaliving almost entirely because of these experiments, and by making the supreme effort of overcoming her fear and confessing her sins to others she literally makes the pacifist ending possible, so I think it's safe to say she has done her penance.
@@soapinthesuitcase3115they were already dying, but kept living because of these experiments.
undyne: **literally tries to goddamn kill you**
undertale fans:
alphys: **does something completely harmless for a selfish reason**
undertale fans: I FUCKING HATE ALPHYS
13:53 I hope your mental health is doing ok, reading every youtube comment must be draining
it's not as bad as one thinks! i'm just happy to have such a large community :D
I'll be honest I like Berdly aswell, I get where he's coming from, he just wants to be liked and have friends but does not know how to do that so he just acts the way he does, you can tell that he's not really a bad person, and personally I like him I find him likable.
12:06 funny enough, Jerry isn't actually required for a full geno run
17:14 yeah the first time i played undertale, my friend and i were calling and she was walking me through it but she never actually gave away any info she just said for the love of god to flirt with papyrus. Yeah... i was freaking out during judgement bc my mind was just blown. Also congrats to you shayy for reading all the comments. Hope you read mine (even though this came out 3 months ago) also i subbed 🎉
Incredibly late hot take: Flowey is better character/personality wise than his Asriel counterpart
Completely agree tbh, Flowey had such an interesting perspective of the world that really showed the negative aspects of how determination works. Asriel lacks of this considering his much more innocent and kind characteristics, not saying his a bad character, not at all actually. Flowey was just more interesting overall in my opinion :b
@@pikaratchet8995 y e s
yea, flowey had a stronger personality than someone whos just nice
@@blanche__ Agreed!
To be fair, Asriel has pretty much no personality apart from being kind since we first see him late-game, so fair
(I know the game is 8 years old now but still) SPOILERS BEHOND THIS POINT
-
I still remember playing Undertale for the first time. Saw art of two funny skeletons on Tumblr (Yeah remember tumblr? Fun times). Just them, no text so I had no clue what their personalities were. Just a short hoody wearing guy and a tall dorky cape wearing goofball (My first impression)
Bought the game literally then and there. I wish I recorded because let me tell you, the first time I dusted Torial scared me so bad I actually restarted before moving on. She wouldn't talk, sparing the first two or three times did nothing so I thought maybe I have to do what she said and prove I could take care of myself. I didn't expect for her health to drop to suddenly when I calculated how many more hits I had and was gonna try again just after that one last hit. Had to take a five minute break because I was devistated.
Then for Flowy, despite the save being from before the fight, acknowledging I did that...
I also unintentionally handicapped myself throughout Neutral and Pasifist because I would pick up the weapons and armor and just.... not equip them... I do not remember my mind set other than "I'm not attacking them, why do I need these?"
I didn't even know about the Undyne date. Until after the Flowey Fight.
Asgore took me two weeks (He's easy af now that I know better than to be a dumbass)
Photoshop/Omega Flowey was... second time's the charm.
The Pasifist end made me cry, because it was the first game in a long time I played before I ever saw any gameplay of it...
Everyone new to the game, especially now, deserves to play it without anyone breathing down their necks to "play the right way." Because then it's not fun... Because I would love to play this game for the first time again.
Personally, I found Snowgrave easier to do than Geno from an emotional standpoint. Don't get me wrong, I still love how they did Snowgrave. Honestly, the main reason for the difference is that I'm terrified of doing things I can't take back. Genocide corrupts your *1* save file forever (ignoring manually deleting the game's save data), whereas I can just put Snowgrave in this one little file over here where it's quarantined from my pacifist run. I don't think they should change either of these, though.
3:42 I LOVE this take, I have a feeling its exactly what Toby Fox is going for with this series and I can't wait to find out whether or not we're right on this
I also have to agree on Deltarune being a better game from a gameplay perspective, even if Undertale's story is more memorable to me (so far - thay could change the more chapters of DT that come out). DT has lots of fun mechanics like building TP when you narrowly dodge attacks
regarding 20:58 , i view the ruins as like a training area to prepare you for the rest of the game, it has the least complex monsters and not a lot of rooms so you get used to the game's mechanics. This is shown both figuratively and visually with toriel teaching you how to spare the dummy and the froggits showing you the yellow name, F4 for full screen, skipping text, etc. the miniboss Napstablook and the main boas of ruins, Toriel are just there to teach you how to handles boss fights. So I think toby dd make ruins a bit duller on purpose.
TuToriel*
sorry
Shayy said that they read all of their comments, so Hi Shayy! I appreciated hearing your opinions in this video!
I like the Chara as Narrator theory, but outside of that, yeah, people like to pin everything unexplained on Chara or Gaster (especially Gaster) and it really doesn't work.
Spamton is fun. Personally I vastly prefer Queen to him, and think I almost would prefer Jevil to him too but idk for sure since we didn't see nearly as much of Jevil.
Suselle is adorable but my gog Noelle is such a simp. We get some of it, but I want to see a lot more Noelle being Noelle, and interacting with non-Susie characters, in addition to the Suselle thing that I'm sure we'll get.
Maybe Undyne being underwritten is why I never really ended up liking her much. I definitely don't dislike her, she's got a lot of charm, but she feels the least of the main characters, other than maybe Asgore because there's even less of him. At least Undyne has the phone calls with Papyrus to flesh her out a little but Asgore gets *nothing*.
19:21 Hmm, I wonder what that's referencing...
Also, I liked hearing your point of view on a lot of these takes, you definitely have a very mature idea on a lot of these "issues" people take with the games.
I can handle different opinions
"Alphys sucks"
Nvm jfc
Anyways subbing just for the luscious hair
I'm glad other people also think Susie and Noelle's romance isn't developed well, at the start of chapter 2 it feels like Susie's entire character just vanishes to make place for it, and it does a terrible job of introducing Noelle, especially considering you're then stuck with her for a large portion of chapter 2.
I mean, we only have 2 chapters, maybe it gets better
Agreed
@@AllanGuiHaya70 Hopefully so, but either way it's a bad start to seemingly two of the most important characters.
Yeah
For me, most canonical gay ships in media come out of left-feild when they first come "out-of-the-closet," but then make alot of sense in hindsight.
(The Susie/Noel ship is no exception.)
8:23 I completely agree. I understand the whole point of the game trying to get the player to stop thing, but from a gameplay standpoint we have a game that’s 67% great, and 33% boring enemy grind McGee. I feel like there are other, more engaging ways of expressing this idea of a game that pushes back against the player. Maybe the story will change more dramatically in order to highlight your behavior. Maybe there’s a new area with tougher enemies and a sub plot hinging on you being a terrible person; the tougher enemies being the game trying to meet you where you’re at. Maybe you could hinge on the idea that the genocide route is late game territory by making enemies actively get tougher quicker or maybe new even more difficult enemies. Maybe Instead of having the UI seemingly push you along, instead have it become it’s own character, causing save points to appear less frequently. I just feel like there were more fun and engaging ways of implementing the idea of a game that pushes back against the player. I never beat undertale because of how unfun the genocide route was. When I first played I decided to try the genocide route first because, edgy humor or smthn idk. I got to the undone the undying boss fight and almost immediately gave up and never touched the game again. I know that’s what the game was trying to do, but when I put it like that it almost seems like a bad thing right? And to anyone saying “just play a different route” I shouldn’t have to play games in certain ways just so I can enjoy them. I should be able to play games my own way and still get the same amount of fun and enjoyment from playing it that way. I get being boring and unfun is the point, but that still doesn’t change the fact that it is a bad point. Games should be fun. I don’t think anyone is arguing with me on that.
TL;DR Games shouldn’t sacrifice enjoyment in favor of meta storytelling. These two things aren’t mutually exclusive, you can have both, but the genocide route just decides not to, for some reason.
Completely random but: LOVE the giant framed Link Between Worlds artwork you have in the background, love that game a lot and ought to try and find one of those
It's from an old Club Nintendo promotion iirc!
I personally would like to see the story of how Undyne lost her eye
7:45 i think a big thing for fan theories is that the game isnt even fucking done yet
TRUE
3:11
like super true
this guy tried to kill kris and literally died in the snowgrave route to save noelle, what a chad
I hate people who hate Berdly, no joke he is one of the best things Toby has made for Deltarune
6:44 I would like to agree with Shayy on this point. Tell me, Saggy Waters, what it feels like to be absolutely and utterly incorrect.
I personally just don't really think the song is all that great as people make it, it's not a terrible song, I just personally put it lower than some others from the game 😁
Whether Alphys had the intent to kill us or not, we were still endangered and harmed by her. Being endangered doesnt need a threat to life, it only needs a threat to harm, which you can be.
Alphys wasnt experimenting on "Dead people" for fun... She was desperately trying to find a way to break the barrier and was charged to do so by Asgore. Because they didn't want to murder any (more?) human (children).
I think shayy should start a podcast on undertale/delta rune theories. I would watch that.
toby made it so when you do genocide in undertale its sent to the steam cloud so that even if you refund the game and rebuy its still there, so i wouldnt be too shocked if your actions in undertale eventually effect deltarune
My hot take:
There is a lot of details on Undertale that i feel are underappreciated
Like, i see a lot of people talking about alphys experimented with "dead" monsters (they're not really dead yet btw. I think its more like a coma kind of thing), but their families were the ones that allowed that, creating this ambiguous scenario of: yeah, its messed up to mess with monsters that are about to die, but their families kinda agreed to hand them over without knowing much.
I literally had to see MTT's fight like three times until i noticed that, not only napstablook was watching his "last episode" and was the first caller, but the fact MTT almost called them blooky is just adorable, and yet i barely see anyone commenting on MTT's and the other ghosts' relationships. There are literally diaries showing that MTT originally didnt want to leave napsta behind :[
Im kinda glad that i never got spoilers about those parts, but man, i wish i could see people talking about these stuff every now and then
Also, overpopulation.
The underground is crowded. Multiple characters bring it up.
Nobody talks about this for some reason!
I actually had brought up that first detail in a section I cut from the video, as I didn't like the delivery and didn't want to get misconstrued as "experiments on dead people without consent are okay" lol
you brought it up a lot better here. the families agreed to it, putting the blame entirely on Alphys is foolish
@@ShayyTVThe underground has a lot of implications going on. These people are at their limit and willing to do some morally questionable things
@@genericname2747 no wonder everyone wants to kill the child (well, not exactly "wants", but they definitely think they should or that it's their only way out)
I just realized something.
So, in Undertale, there was 7 soul colors.
In Deltarune, we have 7 chapters in the Chapter select so far.
In Chapter 1, against Jevil, we only had the red soul.
In Chapter 2, against Spamton Neo, we had the Yellow soul.
What if we see each of the souls show up when fighting the secret bosses in each chapter?
Green soul boss fight related to undyne is my prediction
I'll toss my own two cents in: Maybe like 70% of Sans' popularity is undeserved. He's hilarious in Pacifist/Neutral, and his Genocide fight I'll agree is the coolest in the franchise yet, but I feel like the biggest part of his popularity is actually non-Undertale fans who only know him from Geno, and think that's all there is to him. In fact, out of all the main characters, Sans is definitively the weakest. Other than Geno, he has little to no impact on the plot of the game; he's just that funny friend who's just there. Compare that to Papyrus, who cleverly and subtly influences everyone to get together (Getting you and Undyne together, getting her into it with "I GUESS SHE JUST ISN'T UP TO THE CHALLENGE", agreeing to helping Alphys after Undyne finds her in your "date" with her, agreeing to bring everyone else to the Barrier per Flowey's request, etc.) If it weren't for Papyrus, Undertale may not have even happened. Both him and his brother are hilarious, though, especially together, so I don't wish Sans to not be there. I just wish Papyrus wasn't so shafted.
TL;DR, Sans is overrated, Papyrus is underrated.
I don't have twitter so I'm going to say a hot take here, Napstablook should be given more stuff for his character. None of the "Main" characters has the same characteristics over than sans slightly but not completely, He should be used more and is an underrated character, Sans is "Derepressed" because he knows what happens next (for me at least) and Napstablook is genuinely sad. In EVERY ending he isn't shown to be happy! INCLUDING PACIFIST just because you spared him and he calls you nice doesn't mean he's happy, he's still insecure and I want to see more from him!
I agree, I hope Deltarune can expand their depth just a little bit, since I do enjoy their character in Undertale and the silly "laying on the floor" gag is one of my favorites in the game.
(Napstablook uses they/them btw)
Toriel calls the police right before the dark fountain is formed and Napstablook is on the police force, so they might get their spotlight in Deltarune chapter 3. (Even though they probably don’t want it.)
i am so here for dark world napstablook
It's so odd to me that they're considered a "main friend" by the game, if we're going by the true pacifist menu screen which also includes monster kid, it would make Napstablook the character with the least development in the game
@@falloutphan7341 Me too! And apparetly they share a house with their cousins, so mabye we might get all 3 of them in the DW.
Also, I don't really think they're actually sad, from my personal understanding Napsta just cries all the time because they're really sensitive and their tone doesn't exactly convey their feelings well.
I used to hate Burgly until queens castle… I love him now
It's fun to see other people's perspective on things, it can be surprisingly varied.
16:54 this reminds me of the “the cake is a lie” situation with Portal, it’s supposed to be a big reveal near the end of the game after mounting suspicion throughout the game that something is wrong, but now “the cake is a lie” is most people’s(me included) introduction to the game.
finale and death by glamor are better than megolovania
"Just because it's the point doesn't mean they have to like it" is something I wish more folks in the community followed.
I once criticized the ending of one of my favorite AUs, Paper-Trail, for being a massive cop-out that uses the wrong medium to portray what it was trying to do, and even _then_ would've been incredibly unsatisfying because of how much it set up that the viewer just _wouldn't_ be able to see and just brought so many plotholes. I'm not gonna spoil what I mean by this, if ya wanna know then check out the comic yourself, it's really good EXCEPT for the ending, but regardless. This caused me to get into an argument with a dude that just kept repeating the same thing over and over.
"The point of the ending is to feel unsatisfying."
Then that point, with the medium the story used, is stupid.
"But it's the point therefor you can't criticize it."
This is, of course, _slightly_ different than what you brought up about the response to your opinion on UT's Geno route, but in the end it's still very similar and still drives home the fact that a certain route, ending, and such shouldn't be immunte to criticism just because what you're criticizing is "the point," because that can easily prove the criticism correct. If something is the point, _then does that really make it any less of a problem?_ In some cases, it can certainly make it even _MORE_ of an issue.
Thing is, from what I've seen, the UT community aint the only one with this issue. It's just the community where's it's the most noticeable.
Finally. Someone with a brain
oh my god, I feel the same way!! The author should have warned us that the ending would be unsatisfying, Lemony Snicket style!
I find you disappointment completely understandable. But I'm kinda glad that Paper Trail stopped when it did simply because that's where the author wanted to stop. I get the vibe that anything past that was not something they would have felt passionate enough to explore in comic form for whatever reason and they were satisfied with the story to that point.
Does that mean the ending is perfect and shouldn't be criticized? Absolutely not. Possible behind the scenes stuff doesn't magically make readers not disappointed. I guess I just still appreciate that it exist as it does despite of that.
23:01
The thing that hits hard is when you go in the snowdin shop and there's a note left that's begging you not to hurt their family.
it's way more unsettling..
10:42 they absolutely dont have to like it, god knows ive never managed to finish a genocide route bc i dont have the patience for grinding. But the fact two of the best fights are locked behind this route is, in a way, also the point. The player is doing what flowey did, trying every single path and route and interaction to see what happens, because their curious. Might be boring for some to play, but narratively, very well done