Haviv Rettig Gur on the Gaza War, American Jews, Islam, Hopes for Peace, more (with Coleman Hughes).
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- čas přidán 7. 07. 2024
- The Times of Israel's Haviv Rettig Gur in a freewheeling conversation on Israel and related matters.
Did Netanyahu prop up Hamas?
Will peaceful Islam prevail?
Why are American Jews ignorant of their own history?
Why is America So bad at negotiating?
Please write: podcast@comedycellar.com
Why the fuck does a obscure comedy podcast have more professional conversations about this kind of stuff than pretty much all mainstream media
But they are funnier than we are.
@@comedycellarclipsTHATS funny
Because the professional media are shills and puppets and these guys here are actually 'indoctrinated'. The difference is that these guys believe what they say. LOL. These people think they are doing god's work even though they are secular Zionists, and the other guys think they are deceiving and stealing conspicuously even though everybody knows how the grift works.
That’s what I thank Noam for, and his even handedness and nuance and willingness to ask the questions that I would want answered.
@@comedycellarclips Good one!
Haviv, you should really be the minister of international PR for Israel. Your calm and elequent explanations will caputure the minds of those who listen to non stop disinfomation.
He can't because no sane and honest person can be a spokesman for this government
@@jennybravo7019: the government and the people are two separate things. The Israeli people are amazing.
one thing he doesnt mention which is the who reason the whole world hates israel right now is the innocents and all the kids being killed the way palestinians are so dehumanised as if there not living creatures too is actually amazing
@@debguth they seem like prejudice, elicits who has it in their minds that a God who they don’t believe in gave them the land. Clearly the Rev. 2:9 & 3:9 versions.
@dothework73
He favours settlements in the west bank and say no Palestinians refugees can return. That makes him a Jewish supremacist.
Why are the most lucid, clear, and informative videos about the gaza war coming out of the comedy cellar?
Because your news are baught and paid for by qatar.
because the people who work at the Cellar are directly affected by the conflict and not just bandwagonning like the D to B-list celebs who use the war to get attention
Wow Haviv and Coleman in one conversation.....just wow
Love Coleman
One of the rare lucid, erudite, rational, and honest conversations on the subject. Thank you for arranging this.
Haviv really needs to write a book about zionism and fill that gap he's talking about. He's a really smart guy he could do it.
The last thing we need is Zionist ideologues writing books about anything.
He's written a number of them.
@@deborahfreedman333and great videos are available as well.
@@khadimndiaye7730 did you take no notice of the fact a Jewish Israeli has gone to pains to ensure he deeply understands the history, philosophy, and ideology of Islam. How many Palestinians have you seen do that? Or even other Jews do that? He’s also been vocally critical of Netanyahu’s coalition for years now. He was humanising and portraying Palestinians as 3D, complex human beings better than all the pro Palestine western advocates I’ve seen. Why would he do that if he doesn’t believe in a peaceful future for his region?
@@MegChurley Look, Islam is not the problem. Stealing land, ethnically cleansing it is. Also it’s a problem to try building this ethno state. So no, it doesn’t matter to me that an Israeli Jew learns Islam, what difference does it make? None at all. It’s ridiculous that you need somebody that study Islam to make you understand that Moslem ppl are human, just ridiculous
Haviv, as an Israeli, you make me extremely proud and optimistic. You’re so vital in these terrible times. Kol Hakavod!
u guys have enough people to be proud of, but this guy does really stand out.
Haviv's videos are pretty much the only ones I watch twice, and I rewind a bit too. Then usually I go and cross-check some stuff, and they check out.
And I come out feeling much more informed.
I’m in shock how good this conversation was. Brilliant minds!
Disgusting racist people having conversation about people while denying that Israel is no more than a settler colonial project and an extend to American imperialism in the middle east which stands on subjugating the indigenous to non ending military occupation and apartheid system!
@@saja410: The Jewish people are #indigenous to the Holy Land. The Arabs are the invaders. Two million Arab Israeli citizens have *equal rights* with Jews. Their families accepted life in the Jewish state of Israel in 1948.
Haviv single handedly has opened my mind and knowledge about Arab israeli conflict. This man is a tremendous asset for those who desire to know the truth about the root cause of most of the past 80 years of conflicts in the Middle East. I am a Muslim and Haviv has been able to open my mind and wash all the junk that my Muslim upbringing had shoved into my head about Israel and jews.
Wonderful! Real brotherhood is only in living the truth.
In one video, you can learn more about the Middle East than a whole degree of lies and incitement at Columbia University. I actually watched a video in which a lecturer at Harvard University claims that Hamas is not an Iranian proxy organization, what academic value does a course taught by such a lecturer have?
None
I love listening to this man. He seems like we are seeing him get even better in real time. My guess is that the two lectures to which Coleman refers are the Shalem college lectures. I highly recommend them. And this is another one to add to the list to share. Thank you!
Thank you for this excellent and valuable program
Wow! "We don't justify ourselves". This gave me the chills!
Kudos to Haviv Rettig Gur for another lucid explanation of the conflict, and to Coleman Hughes for brilliant, really brilliant questions.
A critical comment about Haviv's description of Naqba - it is simply misleading that he did not mention why Naqba happened in the first place. A civil war broke out between the Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Arabs after the UN decision on 29 November 1947 to partition Palestine. Both the Arabs and Jews were trying to drive each other from their homes, mostly in the Jewish part. No massive exodus of Arabs, 333 Jews and 345 Arabs were killed by January 1948. It is only when the State of Israel was declared on May 14, 1948, and five Arab armies invaded to annihilate the Jews, and the Jews fought back, that the hundreds of thousands of Palestinian Arabs fled. Some were driven away by the Jews, most fled to clear the way for the invading Arab armies. It's a familiar, by now, story line - start a war, lose the war, don't admit defeat, don't negotiate a peace agreement, and declare themselves victims
Got told to leave friend all the Arab world told them to leave and when the jews would die they would get their land back so I'm not sure about that
This very video states that the hundreds of thousands that fled in the Naqba did so mainly because spokespersons for the invading Arab armies made clear they would be "viewed as renegades" if they took Israeli protection and remained. That tells you the Arab armies said basically "leave or else!" (they would be viewed as pretty much traitors, and so, the invading Arabs caused the naqba with a threat.
You are lying. Look at plan Dalet. The expulsion of Palestinians was a deliberate plan to take more territory after the partition.
Haviv is amazing . I could listen to him an all day .
What a pleasure to listen to all three of these folks. Huge respect for Coleman. His excellent article "The High Price..." will age incredibly well.
Pure brilliance....the entire time I kept thinking Haviv will go down in History as one of the most important people for Jews and lo and behold, you guys thought the same. Thank you so much for this
Because he repeats all the Israeli talking points.
I waited for some real concessions about the dispossession, occupation and erasure of Palestinians.
He gave none.
He argues from an Israel-centric position and does not see with any clarity the suffering inflicted in the creation of Israel
I suspect you do not either..
My God that's a lot of brainpower in one place. More than anyone else who comes to mind, when Haviv talks I completely lose track of time. The guy's intelligence, wisdom and perspective are absolutely mesmerizing.
Do you know Mouin Rabbani?
@@shannonm.townsend1232 Most unfortunately.
@@shannonm.townsend1232 A clownshoe.
@@shannonm.townsend1232
I'm reading his stuff, he's not too interested in peaceful coexistence with Israel is he? I guess that's a bit of a taboo, even if he were.
@@davidk2471 can you explain more what you mean?
Haviv is great! He was coherent, logical and rational unlike other so called “ spokespeople” from the Israeli Government.
Gur is a leftist, thus less trustworthy than the government spokespeople.
Wow, this is so clear. Explains perfectly Israel POV, and more.
Worth every minute of your time.
Israel's point of view is Jewish supremacy from the river to the sea, it's the ethnic cleansing and the genocide of the Palestinian people.
@@pennylaprebendere7804: Two million Arabs are Israeli citizens today. They have equal rights and freedom of worship. Arab Muslim Israelis sit in the Knesset and on the Supreme Court, and they also serve in the military. It's the *hostile* Arabs who refuse to accept Israel as a sovereign Jewish state that are the problem.
why the hell did you guys have to finish this convo after 90 minutes? what is the constraint here?. u have such a n amazing guest why not have him for several hours?
The best and most differentiated podcast about the middle east conflict. Greetings from Germany ❤🙌
This was tremendous!!!
There must be victory. The Palestinians have proven that they will never compromise.
And Israel will never lie down with arms raised and let the Palestinians distroy it. So it will just continue like this.
Great conversation! Hope more will listen
Thank you
What a beautiful podcast. "Uncuriosity" is an essential concept which also explains why the "elite" college students weren't curious about vax / mask mandates and were willing to be subjected to them in perpetuity without any pushback whatsoever. What people outside Israel don't know is how many people look, talk and think like Haviv and that his view are in fact mainstream in Israel.
This was outstanding, thank you. I'm now off to search some more Gur vids.
Every Jew in America should listen to this podcast because Haviv has told us our story as Jews. He has provided at least this American Jew with answers I didn't even know the questions to.
The singular best podcast on this subject ever. Seriously. I have watched and listened to every podcast, lectures, interviews with Haviv since I found him on Dan Senors podcast "Call Me Back"
Dan and Haviv already know the story, so they don't answer the simple question of "Our Story," They discuss the future, and that's great. But
Dave and I are typical of most American Jews, we didn't know how to answer "Go Back to the Poland" jeers. "What you mean I should have let my father in law be gassed at Auschwitz like his parents and sister?" To us, it's such an unserious question and it's posed by radicals, so why bother.
But we needed to know for OURSELVES the answer. We don't have to feel guilty. Israelis know they don't need to feel guilty. We didn't know we needed to not feel guilty too.
Please come back on Dave's show and further discuss the settlements.
I felt we were entering a whole new area of history and knowledge, I cried out, "No, keep going. I need to know more" and I know more than the average Jew about the history of the state of Israel, and the Palestinians than the average person. We never stop learning. The day we stop learning is the day we die. So please come back soon.
What a thoughtful comment. I'm NZ-Australian and a strong supporter of Israel and the right for Jewish self-determination in their ancestral homeland. My New Zealand grandfather fought against the Ottoman Army, the Turks and local Arabs, in WWI and he's buried in the British Military Cemetery near Jerusalem. He died liberating the Holy Land from Islamic rule and I don't see why there should ever be another Arab state in that land. The Hejazi Arabs (who also fought with the British, as did the Jews) were granted 99% of the carved-up Ottoman Middle East land already, those countries being Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. If the Arabs of Palestine want to live in peaceful coexistence with Jews in their homeland then it would be fine, and over two million Arabs already do so. But the Arabs of the #disputed Palestinian Territories don't want peace, and their ideology promotes fighting the Jews, driving them out, until they have ALL of the land back under Islamic rule again [Quran 2:191]. I agree that Haviv Rettig Gur is a great educator on this topic... 🇮🇱🙏💙
What a wealth of historical knowledge Haviv possess. Curious if Coleman has this same depth of knowledge? What do we learn here in US about world history? I consider myself well educated yet knew very little of what Haviv knows. It’s easy to sit on the other side of the world and assume we know what’s best for the Middle East. Haviv lives in the midst of all these different cultures and religions.
this was AMAZING! thank you. It contained seeds of hope. Haviv why hasn't Piers Morgan called you?! Instead we get all these loonies speaking on our behalf
While Coleman never heard a bad word about Jews at Columbia, other Jewish students heard stuff if they were in the right department.
Haviv gets it
To Coleman's question about why Israel doesn't tell its victim story - think about it interpersonally, you're not going to tell your vulnerable story to a hostile audience who hates and invalidates you. On the one hand, it's a matter of self-preservation (look at all the denials around Oct 7th, the same thing happened after WW2, even in Israel, victims were met with denials and gaslighting, so they stopped telling their vulnerable stories of trauma), but the second is also pride. It's a matter of pride, not to discuss your legitimate victimhood, to somehow justify your existence.
On the issue of us knowing our history - we knew it. We learned it. But now, a bunch of malicious people came along and re-wrote all the narratives, and we don't know how to respond because we don't know what's true anymore. We learned one sided narratives. How much of their side is true? We just don't know anymore.
Additionally, a lot of learning about our history wasn't a learning; it's an emotionally noxious indoctrination in trauma, a trauma our parents and grandparents didn't want to heal, but wanted to transmit, to make us carry those burdens and misery for them. Many of us rejected and walked away from that pervasive constant misery foisted upon us under the guise of "our history." Now we are struggling to separate what is our history from this traumatic baggage of victimhood identity which makes us sick. (I'm sure lots of other persecuted people understand this psychological distinction. Yes, we want to know our history, but no, we don't want to be recruited into endless grievances and resentments and an identity of victimhood which never ceases.).
Wow. You need to speak up more if you can possibly muster it. Thanks for sharing ✌
Very well said but it's a difficult line to walk, on the one hand not wanting victimhood to define us while on the other hand seeing how quickly Jew hate revives itself. Is remembering the hard parts of our history not a bit of a fire alarm that could save us from harm?
@@davidk2471 I think that is an important question. There is often a fear that if we heal, if we let go of the trauma, we will somehow forget, or forget in such a way that we will lose our discernment for danger. As though healing implies ignorance of some kind. So we hold on in the wrong way, for the wrong reasons. In reality, the reverse is true. Healing brings more wisdom, more discernment, and better more effective approaches; a clarity of vision which trauma clouds. Holding on to trauma doesn't keep us safer, it almost ensures (spiritually) that it will repeat. It will have to be retriggered in us, again and again, until we heal it fully. Ultimately, we cannot control antisemitism in others. And leaping into action to fight against it, when we haven't healed, often means that we are fruitlessly tilting at windmills, (emotionally reactive out of past trauma) and it is ineffective in the external world.
@@angelasophia3705
Maybe, or maybe it's a lot of talk
Nobody who has a victimized mentality (whether valid or not) fully heals while maintaining that identity. Maybe my grandchildren won't have it because my kids are mixed and interfaith and not totally steeped in the historical oppression of the Jews (though they are facing some of that now).
Victimization, even in histories that are not a long, wide, or deep as the Jewish one, is not something that is easily shed from an identity; it's quite the opposite since it FORMS the identity and often sits at or near its centre. (I'm thinking of Quebec actually but I'm sure there are lots of examples; maybe Ireland too.)
So maybe the healing is about being mindful so the "shield" aspect of that negative history doesn't become a sword with which to attack others.
What does this "healing" mean to you?
@@davidk2471 I'm sharing wisdom with you. It is not a lot of talk, but actual reality. You are conflating two different things. Being victimized by something or someone is real and valid. Healing means processing that pain and trauma fully. A victimhood identity is something else. It is an unwillingness to heal, and instead a manipulation of the trauma, the status as victim, for the sake of power. The former is healthy and life affirming. The latter is noxious and life denying. Jews have lost a lot of their authentic identity, their authentic dignity, because they stopped healing, and turned victimhood into the identity. There is a beautiful authentic Jewish identity which includes the suffering and the glorious transcendence of suffering, the real wisdom and virtue that comes from the healing of suffering. It doesn't drown in the noxious narcissistic elements of victimhood.
Haviv is a great guy .
I want to be very open to this perspective but not even 5 min in Gur is mischaracterizing Hamas as having no desire for a deal when right from the beginning, that's what they wanted. That's why Oct 7 happened. To make a deal for Palestinian hostages. Will we get more into this later? I hope so because otherwise this seems extremely lacking in accuracy. I will continue and hope I eat my words.
Haviv comes across as such a down to earth, humble, sincere guy. 💙💚 - Big shout out from Ireland ... don't worry there are some of us who can see the truth behind this and every attack the Palestinian Arabs perpetrate and perpetuate (with various nefarious neighbours).
There is no actual proof that Raam and Likud party were ever in real negotiation to form a coalition, Mansur Abas said he spoke with Netanyahu, but Netanyahu rejected the idea and Abas lied since he showed nothing to prove his claim.
Abas is a part of the Muslim brotherhood that's responsible for the suffering of many people in Arab countries, He is full of sweet talk when he speaks in Hebrew, but if you listen to what he say in Arabic you'll get a totally different perspective.
Good points.
I appreciate you having Gur on here. I’m one of your harshest critics btw. I do listen to Gur however because - much as I think half of what he says is atrocious, I think half of what he says is very good. And my appreciation at you having him on is genuine.
I don't agree with everything he says either. I think it would be interesting to have someone at the same level of knowledge to challenge his stance on some points. But like you, I wholeheartedly agree with some other stuff he's saying.
I'm making this comment only 15 minutes in, so I may edit if something changes further into the podcast...
But I'm at the point where they are questioning why the Americans seem to be so terrible at negotiating with any actors in the Middle East.
I just want to add one point to that conversation- maybe the main point for the Americans is more domestic politics than a desire to be effective in negotiations.
It is an election year in the US and the pro-Palestine mov't has never been bigger and louder. The administration is probably just more interested in appeasing its base by seeming tough on Israel and letting Israel take the blame for the lack of ceasefires.
~46:00 mark - Coleman hits the nail right on the head calling out the racial binary BS.
With all due respect, though, Haviv referring to Israelis of Ashkenazi descent as "white" doesn't exactly help matters. The Nazis never saw them as "Aryan" (SS equivalent of white European purity), and most Ashkenazim have roots in the Middle East. Diaspora sojourn in Europe doesn't magically make a people pure European.
Good points! They are "white" to the morons who subscribe to woke critical race theory but anyone who knows history knows they were not considered white by their haters.
omg seriously , btween 1995 and 2000 as in the breakthrou of the second intifada , the amount of settelments almost doubled , the pEaCe pRoCeSs was being streched beyond sanity , there were 0 palestinian autonomy in it , there was no recognition of a palestinian state , im still baffeled at the israelis disingenuity , even the supposedly brightest among them
I hope you are also baffled but the absolute poor leadership of the Palestinian national movement from Al-Husseini to Arafat and currently Abbas. In fact, a lot of the current Palestinian plight can be attributed to poor leadership from these people.
@@kedrick93 stop deflectin , he s saying in the video that israelis still dont kn why the second intifada happened , its literally so ignorant , entitled and mind boggeling when palestinians live a few miles away from them under their rule , that they somehow dOnT UnDeRsTaNd why . unless they expect the palestinians to just be happy with the status quo and whatever leftovers theyre given with 0 autonomy . typical israelis
@@kedrick93 and oh trust me it wouldve been no different even if was MLK the leadership of the palestinians strive to self determination on their own land , it just can not happem as long as World leaders are bought by Zionists . And abbas is no leader LOL abbas is a nobody , he s the direct exemple of what it is like to make deal with israel and become its dog , he has zero autonomy , the idf can storm ramallah any second of the day and hes not allowed to interfere when settlers destroy the lives of his own people , so no , hes no leadership , regardless of any mistakes Al husseini or aarafat did , dont put them with that piece of garbage , if aarafat went over with camp david , thats what he would have probably become , an image of a leader while a foreigne army is dictating his life and that of his people , a lap dog , and he never was one , may he rest in peace .
@@kedrick93 dont deflect , hes stating that israelis still to this day dont kn why the second intifada happened , which is crazyyy given that the palestinians sorta live a couple of miles way from them while governed by the same government , a car ride into the west bank and listening to palestinians and reading through the peace negotiantions your own country is dictating would tell you everything , unless you somehow expect of palestinians to be these poor subjegated people that should be thankful to you for gracing them with leftovers while still treating them like dogs , and the so bizarre fake sympathy displaced for the palestianians while depicting them as the people who are being used by their own and the israelis are always in the quest of saving them by killing them LOL
@@kedrick93 Abbas is no leader lmao , hes the direct exemple of whats like to make a deal with israel and what became of the west bank because of it , thats what aarafat wouldve become , an image of a leader while a foreign army is brutilizing his people , a lap dog , and he never was one .
What is the name of the podcast with haviv gur?
Call Me Back with Dan Senor
One of the best interviews on the topic to date.
I love you guys so much. I think what you do is so important this day and age. Thank you for having funny yet highly enlightening and enlightening. Much respect and love, Joey Walker-
The situation is complexed. It is like South Africa and apartheid. America saw this as a black / white issue, yet it is far more complexed with multiple tribes etc. To really understand, you need to be on the ground.
Three gems sitting in front of mics. Thank you for sharing!
It’s great to hear someone who understands the alliances. Speaking to people on the street it’s difficult to explain this. It’s never as simple as Muslim vs Jew or right vs left.
Haviv.. amazing intellect
„Even if there would be no settlements …“ this is something the Israelis like to point out so often. „The settlements don’t matter to the current conflict so we just continue the illegal settlements, even increase them, because the Palestinians don’t care about that.“ So long this denial of what the Palestinians want maintains, namely: a life in dignity on their own land, justice; they won’t be peace in the Middle East.
Indeed. The whole thing is just an abhorrent land grab.
"So long they denial what the Palestinians want, namely a life in dignity on their own land, justice, they won’t be peace in the Middle East." But which is their own land? Can you please spell it out? Jenin or Jaffa? Hebron or Haifa? From the River to the Sea or the West Bank and Gaza? What is there to negotiate? Israel's existence or the occupation? And the occupation of what? Spell it out.
@@JastorKeane-ln2tz Land grab where? Tel Aviv too?
@@condovo as if there were not SEVERAL UN resolutions of how the partition looks like: at least! the whole of the Westbank, East-Jerusalem and Gaza. BUT Israel is sticking to none of them. No more illegal occupation, nowhere. This is a starting point. But in the Westbank, which Israel is illegally occupying, Israel recently legalized settlements, which ALL countries (also the biggest Israel supporters US, Germany, England, and so on) criticize. Spain thought it through and don't see a big difference to what Israel is doing to what Russia is doing. To be honest, I'm lacking the imagination to challenge this idea: Israel is doing the same as Russia, but they do it for decades now.
@@khadimndiaye7730Israel won Gaza and the West Bank in a defensive war! This is similar to the war of 1812 when borders between Canada and the USA were altered. Israel however, returned Gaza and the West Bank which was their only buffer to missiles and bombs consistently being lobbed into Israel. This bombing is NOT ok!
American Jews are no different from other Americans. Majority of Americans are not even aware of their lack of curiosity, such lack having been referenced earlier in this talk. History in general makes A LOT of Americans uncomfortable. I do not understand why, even though I’m as American as they come. It so clearly behooves one and one’s nation to have knowledge and participate in discussions and attempt to maintain peace. The only thing Americans are curious about is why a few of us are curious, and this they ask with disdain (not real curiosity). It’s embarrassing and ultimately horrifying. My grandparents would be ashamed
wow what a fresh take on this conflict, i'm hearing most of these informations for the first time (i'm a brazilian catholic trying to wrap my head around this conflict since october 7th happened and i watched dozens of hours of videos and talked to multiple israelis from all political ideologies, from far right to pro-palestine. most sources online and people now end up providing the same information). This is the most nuanced video i've seen about it and i completely understood his point of view. Great job Mr Haviv!
OMG! This is one of the clearest explanations of the formation of Israel I have ever heard! The Jews still had nowhere to go after WWII!
Agreed. Haviv is the wisest voice and the best spokesperson for Israel and the Jewish people right now.
Nah, Gadi Taub is better.
And his tone is so calmly confident and grounded.
Any comment on the Hannibal Directive?
I assumed that’s what this whole thing would be about.
There are other groups, people, cults and philosophies worth being concerned with than the IDF. Even if the Israel haters want to ignore them.
The Hannibal Directive is a modern day form of human sacrifice.
@@thomasreaves588 I think that would be the Hamas-curious interpretation of it, anyway.
@@jaialaiwarrior So you have no interest in finding out how many Israeli civilians and military were killed by the IDF? To you that’s some esoteric field of knowledge reserved for haters of Israel?
You just introduced a term which identifies US policies on conflict resolutions: Unwinnableness , thank you !
BRAVO
Absolutely excellent and informative interview. You asked good questions and also let him speak. Thank you!
Really fascinating conversation, thank you.
Lots of insight in this incredible and rational discussion. Im very well versed in the "conflict", and i learned a lot from this video.
You learned propaganda man! Go and read the ethnic cleansing of Palestine! Read for Illan pappe and Antony Loewenstein
Columbia in particular was the university of Edward Said and his postmodern Orientalism followed up by the most cherry picked history in the world by Rashid Khalid and his “100 year war on Palestine”. Israel is deeply in need of popular academic authors to challenge the post modern fairy tales by these Palestinian professors.
So Palestinian scholars outnumber Jewish scholars on American campuses?
Proof?
SO TRUE!
I grew up here in Israel during the 2nd Intifada and I know my history very, very well. Until Haviv said I never noticed ; but I truly DO NOT have an idea what the second Intifada was about.
The Palestinians never really wanted the 2 state solution
this is Haviv's best interview ever and he needs to be an internationally recognized name and voice.
Haviv, slow down just a little bit. You are so smart and you speak so fast.
If you want to better understand Israel and Zionism and Ashkenazim, read the Yizkor books from the various communities in Europe that were totally wiped out in the Holocaust. Many of the authors are people who fled in the 1920s and 1930s to Eretz Yisrael following the pogroms of the Russian Civil war that slaughtered 200,000 Jews. They begged their family and friends to join them in Eretz Yisrael. All who did not perished.
You forgot an important comma! "All who did not, perished!" You brought up very good points. I hope people here WILL look at the Yizkor books of SO many communities. I have spent hundreds of hours reading about destroyed worlds and communities.
Love the idea of the week by week chronicles made into a book and his name entering historical books as a great intellectual, with fair, nuanced and human commentaries. Thanks Haviv!!! And thanks gentleman for holding this conversation. ❤
On this planet, any people / nation which is subject to settler colonialism, ethnic cleansing, apartheid, war crimes tends to respond in the same way: Resistance.
True. The Moslem conquest of the Jewish Holy Land and ancestral land was sad, indeed.
Can i write the preface for the book??
57:56 Israeli Jew here - I whole heartedly disagree with Haviv and Coleman here. Israel is NOT the creation of pogroms and the holocaust, and IS the creation of Zionism.
It is true that persecutions drove Jews out of where they were and into Israel, but without Zionism preparing the ground, Israel would not have been an option. This means both the infrastructure of a proto-state, as well as ideological massaging of the Jews around the world for the idea of the Jewish state- which wasn’t there in over a hundred cases of Jews expelled or driven out of countries they lived in for the past 2000 years.
Furthermore Zionism predates the secular Zionist movement of the late 1800s. Throughout those 2000 years Jews dreamt of going back to Israel, and there was always a trickle of Jews migrating back. Israel happened when the secularizing assimilating Jews of Europe lost hope of ever being accepted in the west and turned to Zionism.
"lost hope of ever being accepted in the west" and left, therefore, refugees. And the numbers of those early refugees was dwarfed by the number in the 1920s and 1930s, jews who really needed to get out of Dodge. Does having the homeland of your tradition being the goal of the nationalism mean they weren't refugees needing a place to go? Being a zionist and a refugee don't seem to be mutually exclusive in my mind.
The rise of European nationalism is what drove Zionism. Without that, Jews would be nothing more than a diverse, scattered religious group. European nationalism is what gave Jews the belief that they deserved a state of their own. The neo-fascism of Israel is a leftover from its turn of the century European roots.
@@house684 at that time it wasn't only european nationalism, there was arab nationalism, aafrikans nationalism, and I am sure others. In any event, they were clearly refugees and by the time large numbers showed up is was because the US was closed. They clearly would have wanted to go there not Israel if there wss no quota as 95%+ of them went to the US before the quota system. Hard to say, therefore, that they went to Israel for zionism or nationalism in general. They had no where else to go.
@@house684all those people calling Israel facistic have 0 understanding of what Israeli politics and Israeli society is like.
Im afraid that would be you.@@talsapps
There is a lot of good stuff here. But, he forgets that Tel Aviv is a "settlement". And the settlements were initially encouraged by left wing governments. And there extremely few " violent" "settlers. There are other people who are better able to express what many Israel's feel. And this podcast, as good as it is, is not the only "lens.
I love listening to Haviv, and I’m glad he touched on the religious aspect of this war, but alas( I suspect he is an atheist), the depth of understanding regarding the spiritual and religious concepts are lacking. Belief is not something one can be argued into, and that sums up the almost unsurmountable divide and chaos we are experiencing.
You shouldn’t be embarrassed about the settlements! That’s the Jewish homeland of Judea and Samaria !
Exactly... 🙏
Can someone explain about what podcast do they talk? Where can I find it?
excellent discussion, but Haviv has nothing to say about most of the Jewish refugees who populate Israel - Jews expelled from Arab countries.
Gur has talked about exactly those refugees innumerable times.
But Israel wants these Jews to migrate to there, Israel wants all Jews to migrate there!
@@Edmontonsum Not on this occasion
he literally spoke on it
What an incredible interview ! ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
If possible : Could you link those other two talks with Haviv that you mentioned ?
czcams.com/video/yKoUC0m1U9E/video.htmlsi=tVOxCmJxU3ge2G7T & czcams.com/video/QlK2mfYYm4U/video.htmlsi=y9SoZFCjBzaXEbp5
The Aravah CAUSED their own Nakba. Yiz isn't responsible for that. The Arav League and Failestine leadership is. They started civil conflict in 47, 3 years after allying with Adolph and trying to bring the camps project to Mandatory. They then refused partition of two states, instigated their own people to continue fighting or to "temporarily" leave, and then declared geeeee haaaad. The Nakba has no relevance to the legitimacy of Yizreal, but it is a huge negative towards legitimizing any Failestine state.
Except many Ashkenazim are indistinguishable from Palestinians…
Yeah, I'm back for more. That last podcast with Haviv and Coleman was incredible. So much information I saved it to watch again
To negotiate with hamas is like a evil nightmare and the whole world has no real knowledge what's really going on in the middle east
Marie. Study what the Haganah, Stern Gang and others did to seize Palestinian land.
If you cannot own Israeli atrocities you lose credibility when criticising Hamas atrocities.
In the Warsaw ghetto Jews fought back.....
Now Palestinians are fighting
At minute 51:00 the guy says all Jews migrated from europe to israel. This is wrong. After ww2, 600k european jews migrated to israel and 300k european jews migrated to US, Canada and Australia.
u guys are just awesome. that was an incredible conversation. i feel so better informed after this. this haviv guy is truly great. Now i understand why you introduced him like that.
Thank you for coming up into my ffeed. I feel like Coleman did this. I look forward to listneing ✌️
There is no democracy in the west bank.
This is very far from the reality that they are forced to live this way and then dare to compare and ctitisize their way.
This is also works the same in Gaza where they are forced to live a different way of life.
Not true. They have agency. Prior to suicide bombings and intifadas there were no barriers. Israelis lived in Gaza till 2005
@@ericantes9203 I do not think you know what's you're talking about. Having an agency and not having barriers does not mean you are giving the life.
Israel ahould give them the life they deserve.
@@Ouzrighara they are living the life they chose. I don't think you understand their society or culture.
@@ericantes9203 This has nothing to do with them, their society or culture.
All what is happening is a reaction to what is happening to them.
They should never pay the price of of the others.
@@Ouzrighara I'm sorry but you are incorrect. 2 million Arab Muslims are citizens of Israel for this reason. Not everyone wants to live under strict Islamic shariah law. I'm not judging them , but pretending they can coexist is ludacris. Many culture norms are polar opposites of each other. In reality both countries are willing parties to this continuing holy war.
It is beyond the hostages now it is the survival of the Jewish people and the IDF should never leave Gaza because they will have another October 7th down the road and Israel should never allow the palastnians to have borders with Egypt.
It’s my 72-year-old friend’s history of his PARENTS! My friend knows, but wow, norm is so right about forgetting that.😢
you know who has great experience on how to handle things in the middle east? The country that has been at war with its neighbors for 80 years.
Do you perchance mean the settler construct Israel that from the very start of its inception has been stealing Palestinian land to create a weirdo ethnostate.
which war for 80 years with which neighbors do you mean EXACTLY?
Its absurd to say that there is a sunni-syiah conflict in the arab world. The conflict is between the arab monarchies and the rest of the arab world.
Not if you any knowledge of the Syrian war
@@saulgood2366
Where did the various sunni groups got their funding? From Iran? They were mainly funded by the US, Israel, Saudi Arabia and Gulf monarchies.
@@everythingandmore5537 can def spot the Hamas jihadist in the comments LOL
When Coleman Hughes is your intellectual hero, you’ve confirmed you have no business opining on anything at all 😂
The revelation of this Mansour Abbas Islamist's support for Israel and his argument is stunning. As stunning as the emergence of the "Green Prince" son of Hamas and his blunt explanation of the reality of Hamas and Palestinian society today. I will google Mansour for more info on him
Haviv is so eloquent and effective - just the best communicator I've ever seen about the experience of Israeli Jews. Have you done Rogan?
The ones who get recognised are not always allowed to carry on with their real dialogue
Adding another voice of encouragement to please write a book! The American historian Heather Cox Richardson wrote (and still writes) daily letters linking history and current events, since 2016, and has woven them into a book that will no doubt be an authoritative and enduring chronicle of our time. Haviv is the person who is best positioned to do something similar for Israel. All admiration and profound thanks for all your CZcams lectures, interviews, and podcasts, from your devoted fan in Canada.
Oh wow! What a fantastic conversation. Haviv is so so amazing, and so CALM! 3 fantastically respectful conversationalists. You give me HOPE that tomorrow can be better. Keep talking guys, I am listening. 😊
This is fascinating. Thanks Comedy Cellar.
Wow this is the most info packed comprehensive analysis I’ve seen in a single podcast
hi if you can please bring einat wilf on the podcast she's also awesome
I like listening to Haviv and Coleman. Excellent exchange, questions and responses. I do disagree with Haviv’s view that Palestinian Arabs are not crazy but serious and thoughtful.
Much of Palestinian society is warped by the fundamentalism he pointed out that afflicts Sunni Salafi-Shia IRGC funded proxies. They are quite crazy and very serious, like a cult that honors death, specifically killing of Jews and dying as martyrs in the process.
There are thoughtful Palestinians, but they are a silent minority. Certainly none in leadership, whether Fatah or Hamas.
@@guylipof8742 unfortunately Israeli society has become a brainwashed death cult.
Well, there no thoughtful and serious people in Israeli leadership either right now. If to borrow Haviv's expression, Israeli government is a true wasteland
So true Guylipof8742!
13:14 "What explains specifically the naivete of Americans vis-a-vis the game theory of negotiation?" sounds like something I say when I'm trying very hard to sound smart.
I would love if Noam could arrange a conversation between him and Aaron Matte... I think Matte is like the unofficial voice of the pro hamas anti Israel alternative media left who generally only will go on shows with either little pushback and shows like Piers Morgan where you know it's going to be a shit show and he can ramble unchecked.
@@Boswd he did an episode with him on this channel. Was a bit of a shit show and went nowhere as you’d imagine
Mate doesn't have the intellectual fortitude to face off w Gur. Peter Beinart of Jewish Currents, perhaps.
The guy says jewish emigration to the US was restricted in the 1930s is not true.
Between 1933 and 1941, it is estimated that around 300,000 Jews emigrated from Germany.Palestine: Approximately 60,000 German Jews immigrated to Palestine under the British Mandate, facilitated by the Haavara Agreement and other immigration programs.United States: Around 100,000 German Jews found refuge in the United States, despite the restrictive immigration quotas in place during the 1930s.United Kingdom: Approximately 40,000 German Jews emigrated to the United Kingdom.
Most of the Jews who died in WWII were not from Germany.
I project that they are not interrupting you simply because of cultural "politeness', but rather, like me, are listening out of a hunger to understand a grounded narrative that has been lacking and fills in the major blanks.