What Is The BACH Minor SCALE?
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- čas přidán 2. 10. 2022
- Bach made a simple change to the melodic minor scale in order to create part of his sound, and in this video we will discuss why he made this change, and what the differences are between the different minor scales.
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*everyone:* “this is music - there are rules”
*bach:* “nah i’m good thx”
The best explanation I have seen yet concerning the minor scals - so many articles explain the WHAT but not the WHY.
I have known for awhile that the melodic scale changed whether up or down. But it sounded confusing, so I stayed away. Thanks for this crystal clear explanation that has given me the confidence to try these out.
The melodic minor scale is played the same up or down if it functions as a chord scale. It only changes when it's used in voice leading between two different chords. And even then, only in common practice period style.
The best explanation of the rationale behind different minor scales that I’ve ever encountered. Thank you!
Very enlightening. Odd that CPE Bach didn't mention this in his "Essay on playing Piano". Melodic and Harmonic Minor are important concepts in 18th-C. music.
In the Baroque era (as far as I understand) most theorists (including CPE Bach?) considered the "minor scale" to be a flexible scale that can inflect the 6th and 7th degree at will. They don't have a notion of 3 (or 4) different scales as we do. That was (probably) introduced in the theory later, but the very concept of "scale" is slightly different depending on the era.
I never heard this history of the melodic minor scale. I always figured the whole "going up" vs. "going down" thing was just people explaining the scale badly. To me, the point of melodic minor is that those notes DO change, but when and if they change has nothing to do with whether you're going up or down, and everything to do with what chord you're playing. If you're playing the tonic or the subdominant, the 6th and the 7th are minor. If you're playing the dominant, they're sharped/major. It's as simple as that. That formulation seems to explain what classical composers actually did with minor far better than this whole "up/down" thing.
It also makes sense from a music theory perspective. The chords used in "minor" classical music are typically the exact same chords you'd use in natural minor, except you use a MAJOR dominant chord instead of a minor one (as the video points out). So whenever you're playing that dominant chord, the seventh is going to be sharped, so it fits the chord. But you're also going to sharp the sixth, because playing a minor sixth over a major dominant chord creates a weird, dissonant interval. But you're not going to sharp either the sixth or the seventh when you're playing the tonic or subdominant, because playing a major sixth/seventh over a minor tonic/subdominant creates all sorts of weird, dissonant intervals. So you sharp them, but only when you're playing the dominant. This creates the cleanest, least dissonant sound.
It's true. Many books don't explain why Harmonic and why Melodic. This is a great explanation!
the best explanation of minor scales that I have ever heard, thanks à lot !
The internet needs a dedicated rhythm and rhythm sightreading course to go along with your modes and chord mastery courses, Tomasso. Complete the trifecta!
Who says I am not working on that? hint hint...
Great video,I knew these scales but i didnt know why they where invented thanks for thet info!
Finally a convincing explanation for the „melodic minor“ mess!
Awesome Tomasso! If you could do more videos about Bach and the way he did music, would be awesome! For me he's THE MUSICIAN. But I always have a hard time "translating" it to Guitar
Great explanation Tomasso!
I believe in musical technical jargon, when the distance between the 7th and 8th notes is a semitone (e.g. G-sharp to A) they call the 7th note the 'leading note', (because it feels like the the G-sharp wants to rise to the A, and so it 'leads' to ear to the tonic A), but when the distance between the 7th and 8th notes is one whole tone (e.g. G-natural to A) they call the 7th note the 'sub-tonic' (the note below the tonic).
That Bach scale sounds really funky!
This was very interesting. In the end, in my opinion, it's important that people play what sounds good to them instead of pigeonholing themselves into a set of "rules". Music theory is a set of tools not a set of rules.
Two conclusions:
1- the aesthetic of ending a descending melodic statement on a semitone motion still rocks, and it even metals (go #Phrygian \m/)
2- I need to write a song with four different versions of the same chorus, each using a different one of these minor scales.
When you write & record that song, send me the link ;-)
Great lesson. Thanks. Very insightful.
Very interesting. Nice to acknowledge the Old Masters by calling it the Bach Minor Scale, as it was invented long ago. 😎
I suggest you add a page to Wikipedia for the Bachian Minor Scale, or a Paragraph to the the "Jazz Minor Scale" page on Wikipedia that gives the history of the Bachian Minor Scale, and mention that it is taught in Italy, South America, and some other countries. Until today, I'd never heard of the Bachian Minor Scale, or that the Jazz Minor Scale is the same thing. Thanks
It finally makes sense why they avoid the wide gap in the harmonic minor and use the melodic minor, it might be a bit hard on singers to sing that tritone gap. I know that semitone before the main key gives up suspense to going back to the root, and which is why a lot love to use it in both major and minor scales.
Either way music is about feelings and variety is great, music would be boring and similar if everyone uses the same pattern and ideas in their songs.
This was really good. I had no understanding like I do now, thank you!
"There is a fourth Minor scale" and a lot of the time you'll hear that the fourth scale that gets mentioned will be Dorian. Interesting video, particularly because it strongly indicates that... even in the times where all of our "rules" come from, at least some of these "rules" were merely suggestions...
Thank you for this Tomasso.. I didn't even know about the Bach Minor Scale until I heard it from you.. Looking forward to more great lessons and videos from you..
Bach, like every other Baroque and later composer, uses the sharp 6th and 7th when the harmony is in a dominant context, whether going up or down, and the flat 6th and 7th when not, and even the "harmonic minor", as a scale, in certain context (e.g, G# minor Prelude WTC II). Casual study of any Bach score for any instrument or ensemble will confirm this. (Been playing and studying him all my life).
Great lesson. My piano teacher helped me since I am trying to learn the Rule of the Octave, but I didn't know what to do with Minor scales. This makes sense and I will just have to prepare for the four scales.
BTW I had heard it called the jazz scale also, but I much prefer the Bach Scale.
I've only been playing a little over a year and I'm not a musician, but I really geek out on theory. But I wasted too much time trying to do jazz chords when I haven't mastered my triads. Each thing in their time.
One of possible explanations of a melodic mode is that on the peak of melody you usually get to 7th step, and it's easier to resolve into a tonic if it is a major 7th step. Arabic scales use various 1/4 steps depending if you go up or down.
Thank you for your clear explaining 😁
This was excellent. Thank you.
Very good. In jazz the melodic minor is the same ascending and descending
I've noticed that Bach sometimes sharpens the third when ascending. When writing in minor keys he seems to mix in the major tonality whenever it sounds right to him. I think what he teaches us is that anything goes as long as it sounds right.
Thinking strictly in terms of major and minor is too restrictive. Feel free to mix it up a bit. Or go even further e.g. lydian or major going up and phrygian or locrian going down.
It may be worth mentioning that scale degrees 6 and 7 of the minor scale are lowered when moving down, raised when going up, if either occur when moving between two unlike rooted chords. It has to do with common practice voice leading and chord connection. Otherwise, it only depends on the chord of the moment. Obviously if the chord contains the raised version of scale degree 6 or 7, then the raised version is used for the scale, and likewise for the lowered versions, regardless of motion up or down. This is why we sometimes find the melodic minor ascending going up or down, in the music of Bach or any composer. It's the same as with Jazz or any kind of improv, if you are within a single chord, you play those chord tones the same, up or down. It's the difference between chord unfolding and voice leading between chords. But it's fine to call it the Bach scale. Bach was likely the first to use it.
This is pretty cool stuff!! Great 👍👍. The difference is just miniscule yet people make a big deal out of it.
Thanks for sharing the wisdom. I knew the scales, but not the why behind their existence. You learn something old every day, it was new to me! 🍒
"You learn something old every day" I am going to steal that :-)
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar It's one of my wonts, fixing saying to make more sense. 😁
Wahou i never heard about this, thanks
Hello, great video! The minor scale can be thought of as 1 scale with variable 6th and 7th degrees. This mindset clears up issues that come up concerning harmonic and melodic minor skills. I’ve been experimenting with thinking about the major scale as having variable 6th and 7th degrees as well and it works. The only difference between minor and major is the 3rd, 6th and 7th degrees. I’ve been pushing the envelope and experimenting with thinking of the 3rd degree being variable as well and it does work. The end result is to be able to simplify one’s thinking down to one key and not even having to designate whether it’s minor or major, and staying away from thinking about modes as well.
I use a similar way of thinking in my courses. I also integrate modes in it.
bravo
You're full of wisdom. Can you recommend some books?
👍
As a matter of fact there’s also a big digression about how to harmonize the bloody thing. Which chords could we possibly build on those two scales (Bachian and melodic). Some books are for the “keep the natural diatonic chords when you go down” some are going for the opposite
The only new triad you get is augmented, otherwise it's just an extra diminished chord, and some more dissonant chord extensions. In fact, melodic minor ascending as a whole, tends to sound like the same chord, no matter what chord you play. (it's a matter of context). If you play the "Bach scale" in thirds, starting on A for example, A C E G# B D F#, it's A minor 13. But we're more likely to hear this chord as the enharmonic equivalent of the G# altered dominant chord. G# B# D D## F# A A##. (D7 b9 #9 b5 #5) The double sharps make it pretty crazy, so we often substitute with the mixolydian #4 scale, and the dominant 13 chord (which includes #11). So, D E F# G# A B C and so, D F# A C E G# B. This is often described as the "tritone sub", since D natural is a tritone from G#. Now, that's as far as the "Bach scale" But the melodic minor scale is different. With common practice harmony, variable scale degrees 6 and 7 are not used within a single chord, but between two different chords. It's about voice leading, and not chord unfolding. I do hope that Tomasso will do another video to better illustrate this distinction. It really requires some written examples to fully understand.
Thanks for that. I think there is yet more complexity though. In the harmonic and ascending melodic scale, the formation of chords adds complexity because chord III will be augmented. Sounds cool, but I think most people wouldn't do it and would revert the G# to a G.
That chord (III augmented) is commonly used. "Most people" just do not know how to use it ;-)
But yes, you can take chords from ALL these scales.
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar Fair call. I certainly don't know how to use it, except that smooth voice leading often gets me out of trouble :)
Often theory books tell me to avoid the III chord for some reason.
TONIC SEQUENCES NEXT LESSON PLEASE
Great video. But how the heck do you make chord progressions with the melodic minor with the notes of the scale changing under your feet like that?
You usually don't use the Melodic for chords. Instead, use the Harmonic or the Bach scale.
Oh, so Bach was the first jazz man. Good ol' Johann
Bach to basics
What has always confused me about this is that, in a generic piece of music, "going up" and "going down" don't seem to even be well defined. Suppose I play A -> G# -> A. Am I "going up" or "going down" in that case? It seems to me that these terms only make sense when playing the scale linearly through. I wonder if you can help clear up this confusion.
What matters is not what comes before the note G/G#, but only what comes after. G#-->A is "going up".
It depends on context. If you're holding the G# only briefly, it's probably a "lower neighbor note", a decoration for the A.
A to G could be up or down. That's why we use notation. Or, just say "A up to G" (minor 7th) or "A down to G" (major 2nd).
The Melodic Minor has always been a bit of a wonder to me. Like why only Mel on the way up and only nat on the way down? This kinda encourages scale runs over making melodies(this observation is hypocritical, coming from someone who loves shred.)
Why not use as needed/wanted, or reverse the order?
I’ve also been told by a person that you must use harmonic minor on the way down…while that’s wrong technically, it sounds good.
Also prior to the internet being so accessible,(I’m old) I didn’t know the rules, so I played it the BACH way. Lol the struggle was real.
Well…anyways. Great, and informative video as always! Thank you!
At the end of the day, we can do whatever we want. But having names for these things sometimes helps :)
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar Truth ⬆️
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar Just like in math, we need names to describe the undescribable.
@@christopherheckman7957 And like in science, we explain things we don't understand in terms of other things we don't understand :)
Does the Bach Minor scale has the same additional 6 modes in it as the melodic minor scale??
2:40
More ways to say Bach. Good with that.
You want to understand context when getting your head around these. The descending notes are used to create the lacrimosa type bass line. A, G, F, E, it’s very well used and sounds powerful. The G# is used to create a dominant (major) V chord in minor keys which is really important for functional harmony. The F# is used to avoid the augmented 2nd jump between the F and G# which was another one of those sounds the church wasn’t very happy about things, like the tri tone.
The church had no problems at all with either the tritone or the augmented 2nd. It's the singers in the choirs of the time that had problems with them ;-)
During that period whom did those singers sing for? :D
So if singers (mostly amateurs, remember, and with very little time to rehearse) can't sing an interval in pitch, it must be because the institution they sing for has a philosophical problem with it? :-) Besides, there are plenty of INSTRUMENTAL pieces with tritones and augmented 2nds specifically written in or for religious institutions.
@@johnpill1 Church (both in the Middle Ages and now) was perfectly fine with tritones. There were even medieval pieces for choirs containing this very interval (albeit between different voices, not in single voice, as it is difficult to sing in tune (especially downwards)).
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar Too bad they didn't have equal temperament back then. You could just replace augmented 2nds with minor 3rds (just for the singers). Problem solved!
The Bach scale could be seen as A Ionian b3. I didn't call it A major b3 because it is a Minor scale....that'd be too confusing!
Melodic Minor = Major scale with the root raised by a half step :D I just created a recursive scale in an infinite loop?
But melodic minor = major scale with b3, not root raised.
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar Oh true! That was a brain fart
That would give you the locrian mode.
@@noelwalterso2 no
@@HotRot89 woops my turn for a brain fart. Sharpening the root of lydian gives a locrian scale.
Music Theorists in the 17th century:"Ok but how else can we go back with the scale?" Bach:"Why are you guys looking at me?!"
That's how I picture it too :)
My theory textbook says that there is one minor scale with nine notes and that we should just think about when to use them. So: A B C D E F F# G G# A
In the next chapter, it tells you that the chromatic scale has 12 notes, and you just "need to think about" which ones to choose to compose ANY kind of music? :-)
Now the joke is that Bach did both melodic and "bach" minor in the same bar, same pattern twice but one with both minors. Make of that what you will.
FIRST
Congrats 🏆
So basically the Bach scale controversy is just semantic bullsh*t
So basically you don't know what "semantic" means
@@MusicTheoryForGuitar LOL