Inside the world’s first giant heat pump that heats an entire city with CO2 and sea water
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- čas přidán 1. 04. 2024
- This is the world's first giant heat pump to serve as a central heating system for an entire city with tens of thousands of homes, using CO2, sea water and genius large-scale engineering.
Thanks to this heat pump, the city of Esbjerg in Denmark, will be able to quit burning coal for heating and use only renewable energy in one single move.
How does it work? What's the genius idea and secret components that make this concept viable? And, of course, how efficient can it be in energy consumption? In this video I find the answers from the engineers that created and manage the brilliant system.
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We explore engineering subjects and technologies that help humanity be efficient and sustainable - heat pumps, electric cars, electric trucks, electric planes, electric ships, synthetic fuel, hydrogen, solar energy, wind energy, electric grids, energy storage systems. - Věda a technologie
They say the oceans are warming, here we are taking a small bit of that heat back out and putting into homes and businesses. I don't think most appreciate that ability to help balance the grid. We hear of the need for batteries with all that wind and solar but that massive water tank is exactly that, a cheap battery that may never need replacing! VERY Well done all!!
If it was only that simple... that vast buffer /life support system is already at or near several tipping points...
It's not just a thermal buffer it's chemical and complexly biological in nature it's a physical terrestrial system that is as much biologically determined as by any other mechanism. The oceans determine both the weather and climate the atmosphere and the
Whole terrestrial system. So that's soil and its productivity. It also determines the quality and availability of that other rarest resource of fresh water.
@@clivestainlesssteelwomble7665 lol ..ok bud .. the last 100 year of pumping out plant food CO2 , Ill buy the plane tickets lets fly to this place thats devastated that you are referring too
Never need replacing... except for all the thousands of parts... Which essentially means it is being replaced over time.
CO2/climate-change is the biggest fraud since communism.
(See Henrik Svensmark for the cosmic-ray/solar-activity/cloud-formation/climate relationship.)
CO2 is a ruse.
Climate change the "Greens" are talking about is caused by changes in the cosmic-rays/solar-activity relationship and cloud formation (See the work of Henrik Svensmark.)
Cloud formation by actual cosmic rays can be scene with the naked eye in Cloud Chamber demonstrations. CZcams has dozens of videos about them..,
Enjoyed the video and how knowledgeable the presenter is. I appreciate that you let the presenter talk and explain things without a bunch of interruptions.
Kenneth does a fantastic job of explaining a complex system. Top engineer.
Thanks for giving him this appreciation, he definitely deserves it!
Bless the Danish and their "grid balancing gymnastics" -- but this is the dumbest/stupidest renewable-energy contraption I've ever seen. (Have to feel sorry for the manager how has to describe this contraption.)
1) there is nothing unusual happening with the climate. (Please explain the Little Ice Age and the Medieval Warm Period.)
2) there is nothing wrong with burning fossil fuels. Its problems in high-density areas are trivial to fix and already have been fixed. CO2 is not a pollutant.
3) Climate alarmism is a big-lie superstition supported by tax-bribed liars. (See Climate Discussion Nexus for 100s of videos on climate quackery, deception, and realism.)
4) decarbonization is 21st century pyramid building and human sacrifice.
5) there is NO excuse for expensive electricity. Electricity generation is boring. Just burn coal and scrub the smoke in densely populated areas.
6) the only challenge is manufacturing market quantities of cheap gasoline. South Africa has already done this for decades (Sasol), using coal.
7) Elon Musk: the Laptop Class is in La-La Land.
@@hg2. it's not renewable, it's just a government Zing word , this contraption used a tremendous amount of resource ( oil ) to produce ,
and take a tremendous amount of energy to operate....
here government requires all commercial roofs to be white , white reflects all that sun energy back up to the atmosphere instead of absorbing it ( makes the day warmer ) just like a white backyard fence warms up the back yard because of all the sun reflection .... but as government say it's CO2 plant food causing global warming
CO2/climate-change is the biggest fraud since communism.
(See Henrik Svensmark for the cosmic-ray/solar-activity/cloud-formation/climate relationship.)
CO2 is a ruse.
Climate change the "Greens" are talking about is caused by changes in the cosmic-rays/solar-activity relationship and cloud formation (See the work of Henrik Svensmark.)
Cloud formation by actual cosmic rays can be scene with the naked eye in Cloud Chamber demonstrations. CZcams has dozens of videos about them..,
As an engineer I see an incredible design with amazing integration of energy sources, energy storage, and grid integration. I'm sure once it is operational there will be lots of tuning to optimize the system to get maximum efficiency and grid services.
Do not forget that a residential heat pump also provides cooling in the summer and this district system is heat only.
@@pauleohl in our city central heating company provides also cooling
@@pumahuhu365 Can you get hot and cold water on the same day?
@@pauleohl yes.
As an electo mechanical engineer I see a lot of renewable energy systems where the designers forgot the first principles of physics
I'd accept a slightly higher energy use per home when i also don't have to worry about my personal heat pump failing, causing me to lose ALL heat. While this is not remotely feasible where i live in the USA, i'm jealous of this awesome system!
Here in North Carolina USA we do just about the opposite with heat pumps. Since it is warm most of the year, we use a heat pump to take the heat inside the home and put it into our domestic hot water system in the home. Normally this cost for hot water is the equivalent of about 5 Euros per month ( After the initial cost of about 2000 Euros ) for our hot water not including the free cooling in our home from dumping the heat into the water, then ultimately through the hot water use and into the ground. ( You got to love the magic of engineering )
That was a fascinating film. Well produced and just the right level of detail. Excellent job!
Thank you! At this stage this feedback is even more precious for me to calibrate my ideas and approach in these videos with what impression and value it actually creates for viewers.
@@Watt-Energy You definitely know your stuff, and should have many many more subscribers than you do. Also your content is very much 'zeitgeist'.
Just an idea - it may be worth trying 12-15 mins films, with a provocative or knotty question / hypothesis that you pull apart. That seems to be the sweet spot for CZcams. Eg 'Is x really better than y' / 'can x work in y situation'? Yes it's clickbait and that's unfortunate for viewers with some brains, but it may get more eyeballs on it. The actual content is really solid - informative, well paced and well produced, so don't change that! (OK, maybe slow your speech down a very little bit). Keep going!
Sorry, but This is the dumbest "renewable energy" contraption I've ever seen.
Bless the Danish and their "grid balancing gymnastics" -- but this is the dumbest/stupidest renewable-energy contraption I've ever seen. (Have to feel sorry for the manager how has to describe this contraption.)
1) there is nothing unusual happening with the climate. (Please explain the Little Ice Age and the Medieval Warm Period.)
2) there is nothing wrong with burning fossil fuels. Its problems in high-density areas are trivial to fix and already have been fixed. CO2 is not a pollutant.
3) Climate alarmism is a big-lie superstition supported by tax-bribed liars. (See Climate Discussion Nexus for 100s of videos on climate quackery, deception, and realism.)
4) decarbonization is 21st century pyramid building and human sacrifice.
5) there is NO excuse for expensive electricity. Electricity generation is boring. Just burn coal and scrub the smoke in densely populated areas.
6) the only challenge is manufacturing market quantities of cheap gasoline. South Africa has already done this for decades (Sasol), using coal.
7) Elon Musk: the Laptop Class is in La-La Land.
@@hg2. You probably live in a kind of conspiracy information bubble. It is very convenient to continue using fossil fuel. Only to find out that by the end of this century we have run out of oil and natural gas, a few centuries later followed by coal. Your world vision is limited. We need to migrate anyway, greenhouse gases and climate change are not the only issue.
And 3 km across the danish border, there is Flensburg that is still powered by coal. (In Flensburg 95% of all households are connected to the heating grid, and it's right at the baltic sea)
Yeah, because Germans think heat pumps won't do the job and because someone forgot to build offshore wind turbines at the German coast.
It's interesting to see this combination of technologies, implemented at scale, and harnessed to deliver power (heat) in a manner that is, ultimately, very conventional. It's also interesting to realize that all of this is available to individual homeowners, in bits and pieces, and on a much smaller scale. Pretty cool stuff.
What do you think of this giant heat pump technology and the way it operates in Denmark?
Reportajele sunt interesante, dar cu parere de rau accentu e foarte puternic si trebuie sa depui efort sa asculti materialul dupa contentul altora in en. Se simte nenatural. Incercati sa activati si utilizati optiunea youtube audio track(MrBeast, Mark Rober etc). Utilizand vocea altei persoane sau AI. Presupun ca din aceasta cauza reportajele nu au vizualizari cu toate ca sunt interesante. Faceti un sondaj pe oameni complet necunoscuti din diferite regiuni ale lumii cu traducere externa si vocea autorului pentru a vedea rezultatele. Multumesc si scuzati de critica.
I think this is the future of heating! In places with milder temperatures and warmer sea water it could achieve much higher COP making it even better
What is the cost of electricity in Denmark and what is the cost per unit of heat from this system?
The town of Lemgo in Germany also uses a heat pump - taking energy from the sewage treating plant!
Great idea, this makes me think that any heat source can be fruit for this heat pump system. Even the waste heat from nuclear and remaining fossil fuel plants. ( In other words Rankine cycle )
@@GabrielSBarbaraS heat pumps are less and less efficient ( run longer to do the same amount of work ) and put out less and less heat the colder it is outside by air ,,, so using a better heat source the heat pumps can produce more heat only works in a cold climate ....
had a customer building that efficient house and complain to me that he built a efficient house why is his electric bill $1,000 a month... average 70 degree here all year and he installed water source heat pumps ground loop condensers ( good for a frozen climate to get some heat out of the earth ) water pumps use way more electricity then a fan on a normal condenser , someone sold him their useless dream
@@cardboardboxification agreed heat pumps with ground source should consider the high initial cost with cold climates. Even then I question the initial cost verses savings verses other heat source for when the weather turns cold. Here in North Carolina we use heat pump most of the year with a cheap propane unit for about 15 of the coldest days of the year.
For hot, arid coastal areas, could reverse the heat pump for district cooling while also utilizing the waste heat ie. the district cooling loop's reject heat provides energy for evaporative vacuum desalinization while also complementary(load balancing) with solar energy production. Hotter and sunnier = more desalinized water.
So many people relying on one source of heating. In UK, in the 70s, we had the District Heating. It failed due to consumers abusing it. Not turning it off when windows were open. Cost cutting by not using the correct inhibitor hence, corrosion and pipes collapsing. It was abandoned in 1983. Could have been a good system but became too costly.
That was in times where energy was still cheap. Now you will be presented a hefty bill at the end of the month!!!
Big problem with any socialized service, it's prone to being taken advantage of by it's consumers.
@@spacebound1969it’s not socialized, you have a meter in your house that measures the energy you use from the system, so its the same system as gas and electricity. You pay for what you use.
The failure was in not charging people for their consumption. If you charge people more than the system costs, it doesn’t matter (economically) if the system is used inefficiently.
But they are not relying on one source, there are two compressors and multiple gas boilers, so the system will be reliable.
I'm thinking that some industries want the heat so they are another reason why heat can be used in summer, not just for heating of buildings. This was mentioned in a video about the Finnish sand battery experiments.
Yes, probably it can be for industries as well, thanks for completing!
distrikt heating in Denmark is also used for producing hot tapwater in the buildings. Hot baths needs a heatsource all year long 😉
Thank You Everybody for All that you are doing for our Planet Earth.. Peace Shalom Salam Namaste 🙏🏻 😊 🌈 ✌ ☮ ❤ 🕊
I'm starting my second career as a commercial HVAC technician and I'm working on a startup to make indoor gardening facilities more efficient. I was able to easily follow the discussion here and I'm impressed with both the clarity and detail you were able to achieve in this video. Thank you!
Thank you!
The future at a large scale! A great achievement! Nicolae Vasiliu, Professor, PhD
Honored to see your appreciation for the system shown in this video!
The dumbest "renewable energy" contraption I've ever seen.
Amazing movie about amazing construction!
Thank you!
This is old. Stockholm has had industrial scale heat pumps pulling heat from the waters around Stockholm for 40+ years.
I was just thinking same. I know someone in Finland that has been using this same system in his home for about 25 years now. This is just done on a bigger scale with sea water as the source.
Ropsten.
It was the biggest in Europe when it was commissioned.
Still runs today.
Here is a (Swedish) article describing it.
Bless the Danish and their "grid balancing gymnastics" -- but this is the dumbest/stupidest renewable-energy contraption I've ever seen. (Have to feel sorry for the manager how has to describe this contraption.)
1) there is nothing unusual happening with the climate. (Please explain the Little Ice Age and the Medieval Warm Period.)
2) there is nothing wrong with burning fossil fuels. Its problems in high-density areas are trivial to fix and already have been fixed. CO2 is not a pollutant.
3) Climate alarmism is a big-lie superstition supported by tax-bribed liars. (See Climate Discussion Nexus for 100s of videos on climate quackery, deception, and realism.)
4) decarbonization is 21st century pyramid building and human sacrifice.
5) there is NO excuse for expensive electricity. Electricity generation is boring. Just burn coal and scrub the smoke in densely populated areas.
6) the only challenge is manufacturing market quantities of cheap gasoline. South Africa has already done this for decades (Sasol), using coal.
7) Elon Musk: the Laptop Class is in La-La Land.
@@hg2. Yes, coal, natural gas, sawmill waste, crop residue, sewage sludge, and municipal solid waste can all be converted to liquid fuels. Nuclear hydrogen and heat can also be used during refining to increase yields and decrease emissions.
Great video, thanks.
great through video keep it up!
Very clever optimization.
CO2/climate-change is the biggest fraud since communism.
(See Henrik Svensmark for the cosmic-ray/solar-activity/cloud-formation/climate relationship.)
CO2 is a ruse.
Climate change the "Greens" are talking about is caused by changes in the cosmic-rays/solar-activity relationship and cloud formation (See the work of Henrik Svensmark.)
Cloud formation by actual cosmic rays can be scene with the naked eye in Cloud Chamber demonstrations. CZcams has dozens of videos about them..,
Very interesting video. Very well presented. It's always a pleasure listening to people like Mr. Jorgensen, where you immediately notice that there is probably no question they can't answer.
Thank you! Indeed, Mr. Jorgensen has the complete knowledge of every possible detail of the system he manages!
Fascinating
Super
I wonder how possible it would have been to have both a city-wide heating system and citywide cooling system using the same plant for transfer of energy
In timp ce vizionam ma gandeam cat de fezabil ar fi ca Termocom-ul nostru sa foloseasca un sistem asemanator. Partea care face incalzirea prin arderea deseurilor si gazului se poate inlocui de sistemul actual al Termocomului. Mai ramine partea cu pompa 😊
Air-source heat pumps can use between 545 and 7,500 watts of electricity. Mini-split heat pumps can use between 500 and 1,500 watts per hour, with an average of around 800 watts. The size of the unit is a key factor in determining how much electricity it will use.
Kensa heat pumps, uk, install a common ground array and connect small heat pumps on each house. The benefit being no heat losses, a very oversized ground array to pull heat from and no need for any additional ground array pumps
It's also called ThermoNet. It only works on small scale because of the peak demand on very cold days. It's very good for villages.
@@thomasgade226 That might change if we start to pump heat back into the ground during the hot days of summer when solar pv and solar thermal can capture the heat efficiently. There is also a company in the UK that is using roads to capture heat during the summer, and storing it underground where heatpumps can access it in the winter.
@@tlangdon12 we have a dozen insulated heat ponds for medium scale . Large scale heat storage in ground requires that no groundwater moves, the opposite of geothermal (Aarhus). Canada (Drake Landing) and Sweden has the ground for insulated ground storage , Denmark doesn't.
The other system is extracting heat from old flooded mine workings .... Of which we have quite a few...
A heatpump using the waste heat in the cooling waters of a nuclear power station would also improve the efficiency of both.
The dumbest "renewable energy" contraption I've ever seen.
Fabulous! If only all areas of the world can work towards this goal, we would really be in better shape for the future, eh? (It is expensive of course, and some areas couldn’t afford it at first, but maybe with time costs would go down, and perhaps too, grants could subsidize some of it too?) Thanks for the great video! 💜
So do they have a reversing valve to turn the heat pump into an air conditioner?
From what I heard in the video, there is also a resistive electric water heater, possibly to substitute the woodchip burner when electricity is really cheap.
holy shit, and you have less than 2k subscribers? here take mine!
A really interesting video and topic, this equipment is undoubtedly at the top of development’s of technology AT THIS TIME, use and monitoring will provide all the info needed to see what changes/ additions are useful. This is the correct approach governments L.A. need to adopt and people need to pay for
Nederland's is crapping all over Australia with your water! We've had to implement solutions to each home with remote control metering for hot water heating as our solar systems really do rise the voltage of the overall grid. With the introduction of EVs charging at night we should be building more dams or go nuclear IMHO. Great video btw mate!
... very interesting. Question is, if it is more efficient (and cheaper) to push water only with 10-20 degrees or so through pipes and then the individual heating in every house takes place with small and cheap water heat pumps... called "cold district heating". Maybe only possible in cities, where the pipes and heat pumps have to be installed completely new anyway.
An interesting idea, probably can work in milder climates, but if the water that a home heat pump heats from 20 to 50 in the house, would then return back to central heating system, a lot of energy waste would occur from the one consumed locally, by that home heat pump. And since different temperatures can be set in different houses, there would be a need for meters on exit as well, to count how much each home contributed back on exit water to the system. But another idea was mentioned in the comments, which is already used even with gas plants, of having intermediate mini stations, to minimize the loss. So they would receive a warm water from central plant and heat it up closer to distributing it to homes. A similar principle, but only few such intermediate stations would be needed in an entire city.
@@Watt-Energy very good response. To think about two ways it would have to travel.
Good question! What you are talking about is actually implemented in so called 5 gen district heating networks!
The idea is that because the supply and return water temperatures for the customer are so low, the heat losses in the network are minimal. Additionally, you dont necessarily need to isolate the pipes, saving huge amounts of investment money. Then during summer the water can be used to cool down houses.
Some cities in Sweden have "district cooling", piping cooling to data centers and shopping malls. The heat pumps that produce hot water for district heating does double duty and uses the energy spent to both cool and heat at the same time.
Also big data centers makes some money back by pushing their excess heat into the district heating network.
Another challenge is capacity. As the district might have to upgrade the piping to accomedate a larger flow volume to push the same amount of energy. Aditionally the small heat pump at every house wouldn't be able to take advantage of the stable sea temperature.
Fantastic, but Brescia in Italy has been doing this for 20 years
Why not use the chilled seawater as a secondary coolant for the vfd cooling water loops ? Perhaps they did this but didn’t discuss it. Excellent video
This sounds like a great system. I would be interested to know how much excess wind/solar electricity they can soak up. Great alternative to battery/hydro storage. In many places truely carbon neutral biomass is difficult to source. Using biogas would seem a better option and may even make it carbon negative.
I am an engineer who was project manager for nuclear power stations.
Now I live in a small town in Northern Germany where this sort of distributed heating is used.
I have a number of critical questions concerning this project that were not answered by this video.
1. Cost (average) of delivered energy per kwh.
2. Charge to customer per kwh.
3.This is a 4 stage heating system that attempts to balance cost of energy and requirement to burn waste. What is the Total CO² output from waste burning and gas burning and woodchip burning in tonnes
Yes.
To put it bluntly, this is the stupidest "green energy" boondoggle I've seen yet.
What the hell is wrong with you Europeans?
You had a perfectly usable coal plant to keep this town warm. Now you're trying to replace it with a Rube Goldberg arrangement that would boggle HIS mind. And please don't give me that "carbon neutral" crap!
Please world - regain your sanity.
In my view, this system is a perfect example of a perpetual motion machine.
@@juhajokipii8783
Right.
This is the stupidest "green energy" contraption I've seen yet.
Wow! That didn't feel like more than 40 minutes! Nicely done and very informative.
Is the heat storage just a tank of hot water or does it contain another heat storage medium?
I am glad it didn't feel like 40 min :) The heat storage is an tank with thermal insulation to minimize the losses and some internal compartments to make the partial use / storage / refill more efficient.
@Watt-Energy Question wasn't about insulation, but what medium is used to store the heat Such as a water, salt, phase change material,etc?
FWIW its heat storage was the one aspect, I really would have liked more details.
@@nc3826 it's just water. Cheap, practical and over 100 years of experience.
“It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so“
it is a shame YT experts, will never learn that lesson....
@@nc3826 there are hundreds of district heating water tanks this size, operating for decades. Berlin installed an extra big one a few years ago, well described
My thought for years .. cool down the seas with gigant heat pumps ..
Plus, we all love frozen fish.
@@nc3826 so u get 2 flies with one clap ... smrt !
They have something like this in the new stem building at my college.
Sir a question In the golf country’s very hot. Is there is somehow can it provide a cool cold ty
Great project but with all respect: be careful when you claim world first before fact checking what China has done. City of Chongqing in China has bulit a few similar projects at least five years ago. Keep up the good work
You cannot believe anything China says. They lie about everything.
There are also several large heat pump projects in Scandinavia ... also a whole town that runs off it's sewer system heat and bio gas .. In fact anywhere
Where they have communal heating systems they have gone over to giant heat pumps..or will.
@@clivestainlesssteelwomble7665 Denmark is part of Scandinavia.
C02, seawater, oh yeah and a giant pile of burning wood. Don't put that last part in the title. It's not important.
Pulling heat from the ocean? Nice.
What kind of material is used in the part that handles the concentration of dissolved salts?
What is the life expectancy calculated for?
Very interesting video. I would just suggest that a quieter place for most of the interview would have been a good idea. I found it hard to understand what was being said because of the loud background noise (I turned on the closed captions).
Wow!!! Amazing. Good work Denmark on leading the way forward.
the background video is nice. The background noise is too loud though. Use pilot's microphone here.
I just thought that, if they were doing central heating, why don't they live in a single huge building as well.
Like in a town in Alaska USA.
Thinking of the loss on the way, it was hard to think it as efficient.
The refrigerant is liquid before the expanaion valve not after. If you havd liquid between the expansion valve and compressor youll pump liquid in the compressor which isnt compressible, breaking ghe compressor
I want that generator for heating a van for traveling around the country. I can tow it behind the trailer! 😆 All kidding aside, that thing probably weighs 500 tons.
Those compressors are beasts!
In commercial refrigeration systems in the USA, C02 hasn't caught on because ammonia is considered the most efficient. I am glad to hear that a supercritical C02 turbine system can be equally efficient as ammonia, at least in heating mode. I assume that also works in cooling?
In theory yes, but in practice, this system will never be used for cooling because there is some heat demand even in summer for heating domestic hot water.
Yes in warmer countries like Japan and Australia CO2 is used for commercial refrigeration.
CO2 is very new on this continent. M&M Carnot (who were apparently recently acquired by Johnson Controls) is installing CO2 and hybrid CO2/NH3 systems
Regarding the heating/cooling thing, as they're replacing a coal plant I get the feeling that the network is only built to supply heat rather than pick it up. Who knows, they might look at adding a cooling loop later, but Denmark is not exactly the hottest climate lol
CO2/climate-change is the biggest fraud since communism.
(See Henrik Svensmark for the cosmic-ray/solar-activity/cloud-formation/climate relationship.)
CO2 is a ruse.
Climate change the "Greens" are talking about is caused by changes in the cosmic-rays/solar-activity relationship and cloud formation (See the work of Henrik Svensmark.)
Cloud formation by actual cosmic rays can be scene with the naked eye in Cloud Chamber demonstrations. CZcams has dozens of videos about them..,
If they have considered R1234 and ammonia, why have they not considered propane?
I would make a model in virtual reality, in these things when something breaks down you see groups of eight or nine people spending whole days looking at the pipes and the plans.
You are right, that is needed for future repairs and works, I think they did a 3D modelling at initial stage, before going into actual construction works, and there were also some images integrated with the site actual pictures.
The heat pump has to have alternative sorce of heat like wood chip to get the higer temperature
Hi your film was very informative and I was impressed with this technology, my question is when the waste is burned what environment impact does this have and with collection of this waste are the collection vehicles hybrids or bio diesel. Thank you Nick @ U.K.
Burning waste will create large quantities of CO2. That CO2 could be captured and used or stored in an empty gas field. Other combustion gases (like SO2, NO2) can also be captured. In the Netherlands and I guess the rest of the EU there are legal emission requirements. The solid residue (ash) is not environmentally friendly and has to be disposed off properly. Waste collection vehicles have to drive anyway, whether it is to an incinerator or a landfill. Best solution is to produce less waste.
over 90°C water just for heating ist quite inefficient, it would make sense to go down to 70°C max or so, the additional cost for bigger pluming cant be that high
It is an old city, with kilometers of pipes, mostly underground, and updating them all at once would cost much more than the heating pump itself, as engineers from DIN Forsyning say. It probably makes sense to update those pipes at each maintenance of repair work that would be done anyway, but it would take a long time. For sure this inefficiency is one of the main constrains that pushed engineers to gain efficiency from other parts of the circuit and balance the overall numbers to make the project viable.
In this case, it may make sense to use additional heat pumps at distant end points with high demand in order to raise the flow temperature there and lower the temperature of the return flow. These additional devices in the kilowatt range could then be operated with R290, for example, which is also a natural refrigerant. In this way, refurbishment costs could be reduced or, conversely, the currently required flow temperature could be lowered on an annual average without having to replace the pipes in the entire network.
The problem is, that the customer at the end of the heating grid i about 30 km away, and we have a tempeture loss. We have in fact devided the grid into four seperate sections. The temperure to the nearest grid is about 65-70 degrees and onle one grid gets the 90 degree.
Could pull heat out of waste heat from a nuclear plant and other industrial waste heat source. A lot easier than pulling heat out of cold sea water.
Any Rankine cycle will do , anytime you produce electric with steam, you have waste heat.. Good catch on this idea.
There should be a right for every competitor to use the heating system because if not, you have a monopoly on this heating system. This should be regulated so consumers don't get any problems in the future.
That would make it more costly for consumers since each competitor would not be able to fully utilize their capacity.
It would also lower the security of supply, because who wants to deliver heating during the hours of the year that are not profitable?
So yes the company is a monopoly, and is regulated as such. It is by law operated as a non-profit organization, owned by the municipality or the consumers directly.
Regulation is vital for consumer protection, but opening the network to competing commercial entities creates either the need for much greater regulation (which destroys the benefits of competition) or a barely regulated system that does deliver for the customer. In the UK, we’ve seen too many cases where all of the value in our infrastructures has been sapped by shareholders due to minimal regulations when competition has been allowed.
Nice COP, between 2.8 to above 4.
Would this system work for cooling as in warmer/hot climates? And or both heat cool
Yes, In Helsinki, Finland, there has been a district cooling system since 1998.
Enwave's system in Toronto, Canada is primarily a cooling system. It is somewhat differently set up because the water it uses for cooling is from an adjacent fresh water lake, so it partners with the local water utility to just use its water rather than needing to set up an intake and outflow system like the one in this video. It displaces 54,000 MWh of electricity usage annually compared to conventional cooling. Like this system, it incorporates thermal storage so that it can use less expensive electricity rates when they don't line up with demand, but rather than hot water, they store it as ice.
It's been in operation for about 20 years, though it started smaller than it is now.
Enwave also has systems in other places that both heat and cool as well as supply hot tap water and process water, but this is the largest one.
That's wild, they're pulling out the last 2.6degC out of the sea water before it freezes. They must be using some very accurate temperature sensors.
Don't forget sea water freezes at -3C~ because of the salt. Also increasing the pressure of the system can reduce that much further. So they have a lot of headroom. Not to mention absolute 0 is -273C. So still lots of energy in water even at 0c
This is not first. In Helsinki has too heat pump in district heating.
Yes, there are more examples of heat pumps for district heating, the world first part here is having a heat pump of this scale using sea water as heat source and CO2 in its circuit, while also being capable to ensure such high temperatures on exit that it can operate with an old city piping system.
Nothing new. In the US all most every highrise building has a chiller plant
Pumping energy at a 4 to 1 ratio is obviously helpful.
The limit of the concept is reflected in that ocean going ships don't use it...
I assume the size amd weight of the whole system far exceeds traditional energy production machines.
The CO2 required to build the 'energy production machine' does not seem to have been discussed here.
Ocean going ships produce a lot of waste heat in the different aggregates. For example combustion engines or compressors. If heat is needed it can be taken from these sources.
The idea of the heat pumps is the substitution of fossile energy sources for heating with electricity which is produced regenerative.
Ok, what I had been thinking about so many ways natural energy derived from natural resources, world is not going to run out of ocean water solar sun heat and wind, earth fossil fuels are going to run out eventually, so what remains most is ocean waters and solar wind, in which way these three elements should be used to generate energy fuels to keep electricity going along with other energy utility usages.
I'm wondering can that compressors be driven by natural gas combustion engines instead of electricity?
How much watt per hour does the average household compressor require, any info in this video? Couldn't find any
An efficient heat pump, in an insulated 140 m2 house, would consume between 400 and 900 kWh monthly in a winter month, depending on average temperatures. The upper level would be valid in a cold month, with frequent -5 to -10 Celsus at night, or even -15 and lower. The lower consumption would be valid in a warmer month with positive temperatures of about +3, +5 during day and around zero at night. There may be big variations for this number in case of an apartment, and depending on the COP of the selected heat pump and the right installation and the setup of the system. I promised earlier to do a video with the numbers I have obtained on a larger home heat pump system, on a larger area to heat, so will definetely come with that video with all the numbers revealed and commented, from my experience.
In the Netherlands I heat the 140m2 house with 1800 kWh per year.
Daikin 5 kW multi split airco system.
Most times the Daikin airco uses 600 Watts.
Water boiled into vapor then vapor condensed leaves clean water behind taking away most of impurities so besides using either steam as energy source or get it as cleaned water from sea, and it can generate its own energy source as steam to go on cleaning large volumes of ocean water, based on these two principal's ocean waters should start to be used along with water treatment plants everywhere, made mandatory must in entire world, i mean there is so much good work to restructure social civil municipal systems of world that entire work labor is not only be absorbed but even their coming generations but neither it is being started as yet which it should asap
Running such a plant such as this represents an ideal application for AI. An AI algorithm could potential figure out the best way(s) to operate the plant under all conditions. It might do it in ways that humans couldn't figure out and might not comprehend.
When your favorite tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
If there is a huge heat mass, it can run for a few hours a day and in reverse to generate power
the Laws of Thermodynamics require a big difference in temperature. That's how turbines make electricity from 600 degC at 50% efficiency
Thoroughly enjoyable post from an engineering perspective.
But the comparison to a home air to air heat pump, (which is just one of many different types of home heat pumps).Was completely misleading and incorrect. Since the heat pump based system in this post is only "one part" of a far more intricate and costly heating system. So of course they are not comparable especially in terms of a cost analysis.
And I wish there were more details, about how the heat storage buffer was constructed.
But I thoroughly enjoyed watching the amazing engineering involved in its construction and it's great to see coal being replaced with a much more sustainable option. So thanks for the post.
The heat storage is just a regular insulated big water tank. Several towns (not cities) also use a much bigger heat pond.
Thermal storage can be done in various manners.... anecdotal evidence is not detailed evidence of the construction...
The comparison made was not to an air-to-air heat pump, it was air-to-water. They are much more intricate systems than air-to-air. In Canada, no reputable installers will install an air-to-water heat pump without a backup heating source, whether resistive electric heat or some sort of combustion boiler. Same can be said for water-to-water.
WADR, You are incorrect on all of your points...
Air to air heat pumps, are also included in the parameter for comparison purposes in the post ie any type of ASHP (air to 'air or water', is specifically mentioned in the post (apparently your dyslexia is worse than mine)).... (fwiw, there's nothing 'intrinsically' more complicated about air to the water heat pump)
Also any ASHP requires a backup heat source.... Vs a any type of a GSHP..
Bless the Danish and their "grid balancing gymnastics" -- but this is the dumbest/stupidest renewable-energy contraption I've ever seen. (Have to feel sorry for the manager how has to describe this contraption.)
1) there is nothing unusual happening with the climate. (Please explain the Little Ice Age and the Medieval Warm Period.)
2) there is nothing wrong with burning fossil fuels. Its problems in high-density areas are trivial to fix and already have been fixed. CO2 is not a pollutant.
3) Climate alarmism is a big-lie superstition supported by tax-bribed liars. (See Climate Discussion Nexus for 100s of videos on climate quackery, deception, and realism.)
4) decarbonization is 21st century pyramid building and human sacrifice.
5) there is NO excuse for expensive electricity. Electricity generation is boring. Just burn coal and scrub the smoke in densely populated areas.
6) the only challenge is manufacturing market quantities of cheap gasoline. South Africa has already done this for decades (Sasol), using coal.
7) Elon Musk: the Laptop Class is in La-La Land.
Can cities or companies use water pumps with large water tanks to create energy batteries?
Germany does it. Pumping water to a higher lake in times of abundant electrical energy.
Do not tell Americans as it sounds communistic and you know how allergic they are to good ideas like that !
It would be interesting to see if a small community in the USA could make a district heating system work. Certainly in the UK we have been used to buying fuel for hundreds of years, so adjusting the mindset to one where you are buying heat, rather than fuel and an appliance to use the fuel, will take some getting used to.
Why don't more cities use this technology, buil a system in the building similar to a boiler heating system, only using a possibility ethanol based to transfer temperature frim the building bti to a room in the basement. Where a heat exchanger with refrigerant I'm afrom a remote factory cools or heats the building depending on the season.
For engineers with thermodynamics background the CO2 is the refrigerant fluid, and the seawater is the heat source, so he gets taken out of the sea water and transferred to the city heating system.
24:55 the graphics make it seem like the gas boiler takes the water super critical. This system is too safe... nothing fun can happen.
Only drawback is that it cannot provide cooling. There are more and more places (even in Nordic countries) where it is needed in summer. So you still need a mini split
District cooling systems are in use at least in Finland.
WTF is district heating? Is this a word we have in America? Like Washington, DC (district of Colombia)? In America, each house usually has its own HVAC equipment.
I need the oposite, to coold down hardcore
Not a complete heat pump. 19 May 2024.
Reality: using the gas boiler 99% of the time to cut the cost 😂
5:33 for 1kWh consumed it generates 4kWh of heat? Isn't that backwards? Sounds like it breaks the second law of thermodynamics a little
Yes, 1 kWh of electricity generates 4 kWh of heat, that is why heat pumps are efficient. The explanation resides in the fact that a large part all of that 1 kWh of electricity is consumed for the mechanical work of the compressor, while the heat is generated by having the gas (refrigerant) compressed, plus the fact that a part of those 4 kWh of energy at the end are gained by capturing heat from the primary medium and absorbing it into the refrigerant.
Alo domnii politicieni luati lectii !
Air source heat pumps would take much more power in winter in Denmark.
Not really, based on the COP figures given....
But more importantly the heat pump system in this post, is only in an auxiliary heat source as part of an intricate heating system.... So the comparison was totally misleading irrelevant a anyway...
Wind power? Use for elec grid heaters. NO special equipment required.
Yes, that is true. But with a heat pump, you get 2.8 to 4 kW for every kW you put in the heat pump. Simplified: you would need 3 times the amount of wind turbines to create the same amount of heat.
Heat exchangers
Gas is sadly very underutilised in this system
So great to also use Internet, crypto mining and AI data centers to pump the heat out of!
Is it possible to also cool with this Heatpump?
Would be another income source if you could sell people cool water when its summer and you dont have an AC.
Theoretically most heat pumps circuits can be reversed to cool, but in this case it would probably be more complicated due to the complexity and all other additional elements in the system. Do you mean providing cool water through the same pipes and use home heaters as coolers?
@@Watt-Energy I just thought about your normal AC that can cool/heat but it would be interesting how much cooling you could provide using such a large heatpump over long distances. If its summer and your heater can cool down the room by some degree even it its only 2,3 degrees would reduce a lot of electricity for either ACs or just millions of fans in the summer.
Many cities do have District Cooling, mostly for companies and hospitals
@@horstschlemmer1337 Yes, it may sound like a logic step to do, but there is one side effect that can appear when circulating much colder water in a home heater or through pipers in a heated floor - it creates condensation on that surface that must be taken out of that room, otherwise it will lead to mold. The AC, on the other hand, drops that condensation outside of in a sewage system.
@@Watt-Energy Now i feel stupid because i should've thought about condensation before typing. I just had the thought experiment in my mind but as always it's not as easy as it seems. :)
Difficult to understand with the background music.
I would like to know the price for such a complicated system without government subsidies, of course. My estimate is probably 3 times that of any other commercial heating system. But we're all rich and can afford it, right?
Cheaper systems rely of fossil fuels, and those pollute the atmosphere. Most civilised countries want their citizens to breath clean air, if only because the state pays for health care in the country.
Some countries put citizens quality of life ahead of cost.
@@CT-vm4gf Some countries are not so lucky to live so luxuriously. Your answer reminds me of Marie Antoinette who, according to some, when told that the peasants had no bread, replied: "Then let them eat cakes." History knows how it ended. Human arrogance has no limits.
@@markorsrpska7230
In the end it comes down to: Do you believe climate change was man made.
These people try NOT to contribute to climate change ...
@@xFD2x You're rich and can afford it, right? Where I live, the heating is wood and, if you're lucky, coal. Some even manage without heating, good old efficient body heat without CO2 contamination. Wait, our bodies release CO2 24 hours a day, right?. My point is that it is better to spend that money to help poor nations because your clean technology is failing you if 70% of the world uses fossil fuels because they are poor. This is just showing the hypocrisy that exists in the world. What you save on the bridge you lose on the road.
Why did they didn't use an closed circuit filled with antifreeze as medium and a heat exchanger direct in the ocean so than can go below the normal freezing point of water, to get more energy out of the water.
If a pipe bursts, the ocean would be poisoned
Heat pumps work most efficient when the delta T (media in and out) is low.
So it is most efficient NOT to cool de seawater very much. It's better to use lots of seawater.
COP of 2 in the middle of winter is disappointing. Add to that the losses during piping then it's not exactly great.
Furthermore, that is when the system is needed the most. Good catch.
I picked up between 2.8 and 4. When did you hear 2?
@@JanKluiver Maybe Jimmy meant 2.8 , but still I find it hard to believe ( I could be wrong ) that any devise can get a COP of above 2 with an inlet water temp of about 1 degree C.
@@JanKluiver You're right, it's 2.8 which is still terrible considering we haven't included transmission losses. I would expect better than 4 during summer on an industrial scale. Off the shelf home units can get 5.
@@JimmyLLL Those transmission losses will be around 20-30%, which are mostly due to the loss in the warmer half of the year (summer), when little heat is needed, while losses remain high. I agree that a COP of 4 in the summer sounds not impressive. The input temperature of the seawater will go up, while the output temperature can be lowered. Nevertheless, I feel confident that they have done the math and that this will be the (near) optimal configuration. Regarding the heat transmission losses. Don't forget that the heat distribution system was already in place. The goal is to replace the existing coal fired heat source. A centralized investment of 1500 euro per household is cheaper than fitting houses with individual heat pumps. And even if individual heat pumps would be cheaper, I wonder if all those houses have space to fit one.
So the Nordic countries will make a lot of them in the near future. And it will work in every other place with an existing heating pipe system. Probably it will be economically viable in big cities with a lot of high rising buildings so less costs for heating pipes. I cannot understand why they need such a high temperature!
The question about the temperature is crucial indeed - in a home heat pump one would set maximum 55 degrees in an uninsulated house and 37-45 in an insulated one, the difference being attributed to the heat loss through windows and walls, and a small part of it due to the type of radiators. Centralized systems need higher temperatures due to loses of transportation and that temperature may vary depending on length of the pipes and how much heat do they lose per km. But 90-99 degrees, as in Esbjerg and Aalborg, definitely stands at the upper level of any such systems, which means the city pipe system has higher loses. And this contrast of an inefficient piping system in an old city and a giant heat pump that still managed to still be efficient and viable makes this example even more intriguing, since it demonstrates that it can be done even in such a scenario.
90 to transport more energy in the same main pipes, in the pump stations its only 60 to 70 or lower, the customer dosent get 90C its only in the main pipe system.
czcams.com/video/-bIlAkTDw8Q/video.htmlsi=PGVZcj7uO8hXU4z8&t=1894
Units analysis at 31:34 doesn't add up btw.
'refrigerant'