EMD's Unique Type of 2-Stroke Forced Induction
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
- There are several ways to boost an engine, but a two-stroke has a limited number of aspiration methods. It naturally needs a mechanically driven blower from a crankshaft, but it only provides necessary air pressure just enough to create a usable bang in the cylinder.
To gain more performance, turbocharging is a must on top of the blower, but EMD solved this problem their own interesting and unique way.
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• Video
I was confused for a moment, for what the information initially given took to understanding that the turbocharger was crankshaft driven, meaning that the turbocharger was technically a centrifugal supercharger, which has a turbo-like compressor but not the exhaust driven turbine.
Then with the help of the animations provided, I could see that it is a turbocharger. It is only at initial start-up when it is engaged to the crankshaft like a supercharger. And since turbocharged engine setups are of positive loop feedback, the more exhaust, the more air it enters, and the cycle continues, with ways to control boost.
It's actually genius.
i watched 3 times and im still struggling to comprehend
I Don't understand what you said but it sounded genius!
@@fidelcatsro6948, think the electric turbos in the modern F1 engines. The electric motors spool up the turbo at lower engine speeds to minimize lag. And, at full throttle, the electric motors act as a generator as part of the KERS.
The turbo in the diesel engines showcased here are mechanically connected for the sole purpose of providing the natural aspiration a traditional Roots-type supercharger give to two-stroke diesels. But once enough boost pressure is built, it is mechanically disconnected from the crankshaft and continues to run solely on the exhaust gases.
@@JoseRivera-ym3wj yeah i understand now...engine runs turbo mechanically, once enough exhaust pressure the smoke runs the turbo, its a clever idea, yes thank you
@fidel catsro & @@P440CPJ
Crankshaft drives the turbo-charger's compressor up to the point where it's the exhaust-gases that are doing the real work by spinning the turbo-charger's compressor faster than the over-run clutch, thus creating the forced-induction.
By 'inter-cooling' the intake-air that's been heated by the exhaust-gases, the volume of air shrinks while still containing the same mass of gas, which is extremely practical for higher altitudes where the air is thinner (but fortunately cooler)!
Very interesting video and Man the sound of a Detroit 2 stroke diesel never gets old!
The startup idle roll is simultaneously exciting and anxiety inducing. Have you ever had to work on the mechanical Governor in those things? It was the single most complicated part on the detroits.
Something I'll probably never hear again in the UK. I drove a shunter on a steelworks that had been cobbled together from what was lying around which included a 8/71 DD engine coupled to a six speed crash box and an axle of uncertain parentage. That thing could pull insane loads and with no trailer could give a Porsche a run for its money on acceleration... Up to its top speed of about 30mph 😀
@@xxxggthyf in the US, people are putting Detroit diesel stock blocks on dragster rails, and they’re making THOUSANDS of horsepower. Absolutely insane
@@THESLlCK I'm not surprised at all. I've often wondered what would happen if you fitted carbs to a DD and replaced the injectors with spark-plugs... You'd have to run it on billion octane fuel at that sort of compression ration but I bet it would chuck out some serious horsepower... Briefly 😁
@@xxxggthyf well people run them on 90% nitromethane with a little diesel and they run about 6,000-8,000hp.
VisioRacer: A video request: Piston sizes of different engines. Such as train engine, hauler & earth movers, F1, consumer cars and trucks would be really cool. From Dodges 6.2l v8 all the way down to the smallest you can find. Thanks for reading.
Aviation piston engines have some interesting sizes it would seem. The Continental and Lycoming engines seen on light Cessna, Piper, Beechcraft airplanes are usually more than 1 liter per cylinder. Then there are the 12 cylinder engines with more than 2 liters per cylinder (Merlin engine for example)
Smallest piston size that isn't an rc engine might probably be the ones in the honda rc 166 was it? The 250cc 6cyl bike
@@koolkei yes it would be a rc engine. Most rc engines are around 3-5cc
Well you could stand inside of some Loco engine pistons lol
Wärtsilä RTA-96 has 1800L/cylinder, i don't know anything bigger than that
The turbo EMD is gear driven to throttle 6, throttle 7 and 8 the turbo is on its own and the one way sprag is in free wheel, throttle 7 in the 645 engines is the most efficient, with BSFC at around (.322) pounds per hp per hour, in the 645 series that around 1100 pounds of fuel per hour, I did testing on these engines in the mid 80s, at the DOT facility in Colorado out in the desert...it's operated by the Association of American Railroads
That is really neat. How do I reach you to discuss this more ?
Very cool. I wish BSFC was published for a lot more engines out there - including our daily drivers.
@yo_marc at one time I had all that information and it covered all throttle notches including slow idle and above, as well as pressure crank angle diagrams...
There are 3 versions of EMD engines, 567, 645, and 710 these numbers are the cu.in. displacement
Of each cylinder... they are much larger versions of the famous Detroit Diesel truck and other use engines...
Thank you for sharing your expertise, @ChiefCabioch - I love learning this stuff!
The most reliable and best sounding locomotive diesel engine. Change my mind!
A surprise is that you included videos from CroRailfan. Greetings from Croatia.
Im not here to change your mind.
Im here to back you up!
Nothing beets that sound!
@@willynebula6193 anyhing beats that sound tbh
Most reliable - I wouldn't know. Best sounding - Napier Deltic - czcams.com/video/Huc2lCTCqgA/video.html
@@Maximus20778 lol no
@@railfancroatia1141 yes?? your talking bs at this point
I had a 100 foot long tug with a EMD V 12 576 rated at 1200 HP. Once when I was working on it I left one of the air box covers off when I started it and the amount of wind that came out was astonishing. There was a wrench laying near the cover hole and it shot across the engine room like a bullet.
Love the sound of the Detroit diesels and the way they run too brings back some good memories. Keep up the good work.
Great video, EMD's 2 stroke engines sound like no other when idling with the turbo running at minimum RPM.
The gear driven turbocharger that EMD uses was tried on Detroit Diesel 92 series (for truck and bus use). But the throttle response was not good-basically it didn't work well. So this system is only good for slow acceleration/generator use-as in a locomotive. It works so well, the EMD is Tier 4 final approved for marine use. now.
Worked on a boat fishing in the 80s with EMD power, worked well and almost as quiet as a CAT
I don't think they make a tier 4 2 stroke. EMD's teir 4 engine is 4 stroke.
Tyler Hunt It was a reman from a train, wasn’t the engineer so didn’t pay that much attention
@@tylhunt Only for rail, for everything else it's the 710 still.
It's interesting, because the EMD engines are praised for their throttle response (especially compared to 4 stroke engines). They can accept load and recover exceptionally quickly
Presumably EMD used something like a Sprague clutch to disengage the blower drive when turbine power was sufficient. Smart design.
And as a New Zealander, nice to see Kiwi Rail featured.
Hi Steve
Yes that’s correct, at low RPMs it acts like a centrifugal supercharger. But once the exhaust gasses gained enough power it would unlock the clutch and run off exhaust gas power. Pretty trick design. And there is nothing in the world like the ear shredding shriek of an EMD turbo at max RPM.
I never get sick of hearing DFT's roaring through Trashburton, they sound sooo much sweeter than the DXB's! But then I love GM products in general!
volvo penta on their marine diesels used a small root blower belt driven with a A/C style clutch that when you throttled up it would take up the lag the disengage when the turbo spooled up … weirdest thing you ever heard 😅
Thank you! The sound of the 16 cylinder EMD 567 was part of my childhood soundtrack. They powered most locomotives (NOHAB, Sweden) here in Denmark for decades. I think they were replaced by the 20 cylinder 645 in the 70's. Now most trains on the mainlines are run by all electric locomotives.
The turbo sound was earsplitting on the test cell with no covers. 8 hours of full throttle run in before shipping.
We had a generator installed and it threw a rod at 7 h 40 minutes and had to be taken out of the plant. Almost made it haha
EMD is some of the best engines ever, their block is a weldment that is field repairable, supercharer that becomes a turbo at high RPM's by declutching from the gear train to eliminate turbo lag and substitute one device for 2 is genius.
Always a pleasure to work on these engines, many power pack and head change outs, very modular engine in construction. Have seen a few over run clutches fail, no drive to the turbo resulting in low power, plenty of smoke from unburnt fuel. Even still a very reliable unit compared with other engines.
I used to work for a major West Coast rebuilder of those EMDs. The blower/turbo was shipped in from another supplier in a dumpster sized crate. Inside was a dessicant pack the size of a pillow.
Ttem EMD 2 stroke run on anti friction bearing a very hardened steel 4340 crankshafts like Detroit diesel 2 stroke do, I got a silver 8v92 2 stroke turbo
Damn it. Completely forgotten about EMD's 2-stroke engines! Used extensively in railroad and marine. EMD 710 series. Best prime mover ever, IMO.
Hmm... both Detroit and EMD focused on 2-stroke engine cycle for its diesel engines. What did they had in common?
Ah yes, of course. GM!
You could focus on railroad prime movers for the next batch of videos, VR.
Don't forget Fairbanks-Moorse, they are technically two stroke but of an opposed piston design. Not sure if EMU's used OP units but they were popular in marine.
@@yolo_burrito Yes. They (Fairbanks-Morse & GM) were used during WWIi USN in Tambor, Gato, Balao & Tench-class, fleet submarines.
Fairbanks Morse made locomotives with an opposed piston design also, they just didn’t go over real well because the EMD and ALCO engines were so much simpler to maintain.
No wonder they have similar engine naming: 6v53, 8v71 from Detroit, 16-645, 20-710 from EMD.
@@JustPeasant they are still in use in some applications. I know of a water management district uses them for very large axial flow pumps.
Its basically a the same type of clutch you find in a bicycle, and it's freaking genius.
For those of you who aren't aware, the Detroit diesels and the 567/645/710 were designed basically by the same people, hence the familial nature of the shared design. That is thanks to ole' GM and her conglomerating ways. The history is fascinating. Its a shame that the 710 has to varying degrees been regulated out of existence (though it's still being produced in smaller numbers for certain industries and via the tier-4 credit program). Perhaps EMD can work with AchatesPower to bring two stroke back to it's former glory while still meeting emissions compliance.
If EMD buy Achates and get serious about adopting the opposed-piston architecture, they could get Caterpillar back into the on-highway engine market. I could see Caterpillar's "EMD Truck Engines" making something like a 4-53 for 1/2-ton trucks and a 6-53 for HD trucks. Then they could also make a 6-71 for larger trucks like box trucks, and opposed-piston 8V92 and 12V92 engines for big rigs.
It’s the for an OP 1700 rotax made from 2 850 etec turbo engines in a new skidoo.that would make one sick snowmobile engine. An opposed piston turbo 2 stroke in a 2023 skidoo
I smile all the way through your videos like a kid watching their first fireworks display. The most enjoyable channel I sub to for sure.
wait till you see me and my cat trying to decipher the info on this video...
@@fidelcatsro6948
Very cute name Mr. Catsro
@@aaronburratwood.6957 🐱👍🏾
I worked there about 10 years ago. Favorite part was developing SD70ACS and GT38ACe locomotives, for Saudi Arabia and Indonesia.
The 2 stroke doesn't meet tier 4 emissions. They have a new 4 stroke, based on their past H engine, for tier 4.
BHP in Australia’s Pilbara region are 100% SD70ACe and I believe they can still buy them new ex-North America.
Super cool, I’m currently in training to work for SAR on those SD70ACS locomotives!
Love the sound of trains👍
Everyone makes videos about sports cars these days, but nowhere near as many make videos about huge unique engines like these, respect :D
I live across the highway from the Canadian Pacific main line and hear lots of V16 EMD710s.
I think the 645 series EMDs sound better as the 710 series sounds over-muffled, but they still sound good in notch 8
That's pure genius. Use a Sprag clutch to detach it from the crank when exhaust flow it's enough to drive the turbine faster than the crankshaft.
I love the sound of these engines! A few types of loco's run them here in Sydney Australia
EMD bought the design from Detroit Diesel roughly about the 70's.
The 149 and 249 series 2 strokes were originally a Detroit Diesel that they couldn't get to pass emissions. Detroit Diesel was the first diesel engine on the railways after steam engines in 1932.
The only competition DD had in the 50's was GE.
The first DD 12V149 series engines came with 4, 6 cylinder heads mounted on the 12 V engines and same with the 12 V 249 engines.
The 16 V engines were 4, 8 cylinder heads mounted on the 16 V engines for that series.
Can't get enough of the EMD engine sound. Purposeful chatter. Locomotive 4-strokes just go chop-chop-chop. If I remember correctly, the turbo on the EMD transitions from mechanically driven to exhaust driven at throttle notch 4. Detroit Diesel tried some things on their 2-strokes in the 80's to overcome the Roots blower inefficiencies. The Silver 92 had a blower that would clutch off and charge air would bypass around it once the turbocharger was making boost. They also experimented with a hydrostatically assisted turbocharger to completely eliminate the Roots blower. There was an hydraulic pump driven by the crankshaft plumbed to the turbocharger shaft that had a Pelton wheel added to it. (Think of a small version of a waterwheel.) It would spin the turbo fast enough to start and idle, and run at low loads until there was enough exhaust energy to really light the turbo. I don't think that ever made production.
But my favorite EMD sounds are made by the Roots-blown 567 and 645's. The turbo silenced the exhaust on the later 645 and 710's.
Detroit is still being innovative in the turbocharger space, making use of turbo-compounding on the dd15 and dd16 engines
I would rather just use a sealed crankcase and rotary valves down there. Sldo oil injection VRO dry sump. Tge model 42, and 32 Fairbanks Morse did this. Field marshals tractor and Sachs D600L in Holder A-12 tractors. Also 850 rotax etec turbo in new skidoos. I like the dry sump VRO much better.
Screaming Jimmy's , just have to love them🤩
Yep, and having a gear splitter on the gear splitter due to the ~300 RPM wide power band. 😋
@@tcmtech7515
Thats true..but besides that...the sound is unbeatable by no means🤩
WHATS UP VISIO! I love your videos!
That Detroit had the guy in blue stopping. I would too hearing that thing spool up like it did.
Yep; the example he posted was a brief clip of the rare DD 12V-53; sounds amazing!
Yeah ! He was all casual and chilling, walking past ! stopped in his tracks when the dude pulled the chain 😂🤣😂
the emd 645 engine was almost 4000 hp with 20 cilinders. The sound of it is astonishing also. Denmark used it in Mz diesel locs.
Love the MZ series, especially the MZ IV
The 645 V20's were used here in North America for EMD SD45's but they were not reliable at all.The weight of the engine block was too heavy on the frames,so over time from vibration,there was bending from stress including fractures.On a mechanical aspect,it was notorious for them to have piston or crankshaft damage as well.Eventually,most of them were rebuilt as SD45R's and SD40M-2's with the 645 V16's just like the SD40-2's with 3,000 HP.Later on,EMD came out with the SD45-2 which had better reliability and longevity.
What do you think the fact emd and detroit had the same owner when these engines where developed had to do with the final product? Im also wondering how the low rpm aspect of the emd had on the ways it tackled getting enough air. Would have been cool if emd had developed a truck engine. Love your program. My fav fact on 567. Trips overspeed at 900 rpms. And can run with in parameters at 3 lbs of oil pressure.
The two stroke diesel truck engine went out of favor because it couldn't pass pollution control laws. GM gave up on development of it about 20 years ago.
@@cdjhyoung The technology EXISTS for a resurgence of that MOST efficient Supercharger 2 stroke diesel....The EPA is counterproductive to truly green They've taken out the Sulphur, now 2 strokes should be COMPETITIVE as CLEAN & efficient PLENTY OF BOOST
@@charlesangell_bulmtl Perhaps true, but I need to wonder if GM would still be interested in investing in this market, if they still have the technology and manufacturing ability to produce this size of engine and if they still own the core patents on these two stroke engines. GM heavily dis-invested in a lot of product lines in the 2008-9 era. I think that's when Penske got their Allison transmission division. It would not surprise me if the Jimmy diesel line was part of that deal.
This particular design was invented and produced by the *WInton* company, GM bought the Winton company and split it into Detroit Diesel and the Electomotive divisions so the answer is yes, both brands have a common origin.
Great video, most of the diesel loco's we have in the UK use these hybrid turbo superchargers with their two stroke diesels.
they're made by EMD.
so if this is wrong let me know: it's "basically" a centrifugal supercharger with a one way bearing, which disengages when the turbine rpm exceeds the reduction/crank rpm, turning it into a turbo?
Yep, summed up nicely
This is an accurate vid. I'm very impressed. You even correctly called them Uniflow Diesel and omitted mentioning the dreaded 'Supercharged' word for naturally aspirated EMD and Detroit Diesel variants. For a short vid it is loaded with accurate information. Well done!
I've got some things to add for those that don't already know these things and have a yearning to know more LOL.
So as you point out not all EMDs were turbocharged but you show an excellent pic of a naturally aspirated V16 EMD at 4:25. You can actually see very clearly the Roots blowers - one per bank driven by the camshafts at the camera end above the generator.
The EMDs were exhausted in the Vee whereas Detroits are coventional location. EMD Vee angle is 45deg and Detroits were 90 degree Vee if they weren't inline engines.
Those style NA EMDs were never turbocharged as only Detroit Diesels had a turbo and a blower.
The airbox pressure the blowers pump is 0.7 PSI over barometric at sea level. It was found (by Kettering) .7 PSI provided some altitude compensation and some compensation for hot days and combinations of hot and high.
Also of interest, Detroit Diesel 92 Silver Series - so the very last automotive 92s, were originally going to use the EMDs hybrid turbo-blower but the impending move to 4 stroke inline 6 Diesels by the trucking industry was in the wind at the time due to tightening emission requirements.
Detroit Diesel decided that it wouldn't spend the development costs on a hybrid arrangement for the new Silver 92 so instead stayed with the conventional turbo feeding into the blower of earlier turbo DDs. Turbo blowers were different to NA blowers because they had a bypass flap inside and boost pressure bypassed the blower lobes saving 30hp even though the blower lobes still rotated - so no redundancy in this arrangement.
The aftercooler was mounted below the blower and was a liquid to air arrangement fed by engine coolant.
In the Silvers, the injection system had electronic control called DDEC (Detroit Diesel Electronic Control). An 8V92TTA (TTA in Detroit Diesel parlance means Tailored Torque Aftercooled not Twin Turbo Aftercooled).
Roots blowers on Detroits cost in the order of 100hp to drive which must be paid for in fuel so the hybrid EMD style blower on the Silvers would really have been something. We'll never ever know what could've been except to say the 475hp 8V92TTA Silver Series 92 would've had probably another 70hp and used less fuel producing that power.
A side benefit of all turbocharged engines is they have built in altitude compensation ie they maintain their rated power at almost all altitudes below about 18,000ft (not too many EMDs at those kinds of heights).
Blowers because they are a positive displacement pump, geared to the engine rather than free spooling also lose pumping capacity with altitude gain. This is because each chamber within it has a known displacement that yields a rated volume of air at sea level. As you go up altitude it can't supply sea level pressure anymore.
A blower turned into a supercharger so put on say a V8 gas engine even though it pumps 10PSI boost at sea level still loses its capacity to maintain that boost at altitude.
A free spooling turbocharger still pumps the same boost since exhaust is powering the compressor.
Its specifically called WINTON engine, a type of uniflow Diesel.
GM bought the Winton company and split the company into the Detroit and Electromotive divisions.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Winton and the Electro-Motive Engineering Corporation (EMC) were originally two separate companies, GM bought Winton first for their diesel designs and then decided to also purchase EMC because they were one of Winton's largest customers, all this took place in 1930. EMC had been formed in 1922, their business was self-propelled passenger railcars, then commonly known as 'doodlebugs' in North America. They were a relatively small company and did not even have their own factory, while they designed and marketed their products they would buy engines from Winton or other suppliers, electrical gear from GE or Westinghouse, and then contract out actual construction to a railcar manufacturer like St. Louis Car.
GM reorganized and renamed Winton to Cleveland Diesel in 1938, and also created Detroit Diesel as a separate division at the same time. The intent was for EMC (renamed EMD in 1941) to focus on railroads, Cleveland on the marine industry, and Detroit on the equipment and vehicle markets. Those lines ended up blurring over time and Cleveland's remaining business was merged into EMD in 1962.
Winton/Cleveland's engines were highly successful in the marine world, and while they don't get anywhere near as much attention from historians they actually built more engines than EMD during the war years. Some 268 and 278 engines are still in use today, but they are becoming rare and replacement parts even more so.
The early history of GM's entry into the diesel engine and locomotive markets is a fascinating story, especially when you consider that the EMD 567 almost single-handedly killed the steam locomotive in North America.
I got a silver 8v82 2 stroke turbo engine out back. 475 hp
It’s got a garret turbo
Never heard about this clever design.
Thanks for this interesting discovery.
(btw these beasts sounds awesome)
Those are some great shots of the turbo and clutch system! Very nice indeed!
Gas is for cleaning parts, alcohol is for drinking, diesel is for making power.
Awesome to see you talk about EMD.
I basically came up with this idea on my own, and found out that similar designs have been done before. I think my design is better though. It's a very significant part of my engine design thesis.
I love the sound of that Detroit diesel. It sounds extremely powerful. If I'm not mistaken, this is part of the future of the internal combustion engine.
Two stroke engines are simple, smooth, powerful and efficient. It's really nice to see that this is an already proven technology. It takes some of the stress off.
Indeed, 2-stroke Diesels have always been the most efficient reciprocating engines in the world and still are..
Great episode. I love learning interesting new things. Keep up the good work. Would be interesting to see a Hall-Scott episode
2:19 good choice for a clip
I'm not sure if a crank shaft driven turbo is a turbo anymore by definition. In Germany we call that either a blower or a compressor, depending on the pressure.
That is correct. He must mean super charger. Turbo chargers by definition have 2 parts: the compressor and the turbine. The compressor is spooled up by the exhaust.
@@dylankoett2761 its both its crank driven at low RPM and a one way clutch lets the turbine pick up the load and spin even faster then the crank once theres enough gas flow through the exhaust.
@@dylankoett2761 Wrong, the EMD has a BLOWER, not a supercharger.
EMD engines are not supercharged or turbocharged.
All EMD 2-stroke Diesel engines are NORMALLY ASPIRATED.
@@phalanx3803 But it's still *Normally Aspirated,* not supercharged... no manifold boost pressure.
All Nimitz Class CVN's have 4 EMD 645's 16
I worked on a diesel-electric ship with 5 of EMDs that had this method of supercharging. We would idle them at 600rpm to warm up before putting online, which of course the would have to be brought up to speed (1200rpm) beforehand. Once at speed, you had to get it online soon as the lack of load wouldn't spin the turbo fast enough, causing the exhaust inlet screen to soot up and the engine to surge.
1200RPM?! EMD 2 cycles are rated to at most 950 RPM aren't they?
I remember one of our SD40-2 locomotives (turbocharged 16-645, 3000 HP for traction at 900 rpm) that was plugged up pretty good. When you were pulling in full throttle a chunk of crud would make it through the screen every now and then and get chewed up, what a horrible sound that was. But it would quit coughing after a few seconds and go right back to running normally
I used to work for a place that rebuilt EMD and GE turbochargers
Cool to see one of the kiwi rail trains in your video, cheers from New Zealand.
Perhaps you should do a video on the Crossley ESN and HST series of two stoke diesel engines. From an engineering angle they are very interesting even if they were far from reliable.
Very smart design, I'm surprised it hadn't been used in other applications
There are very few companies that still manufacture Winton 2-stroke Diesel engines
Indian Railway manufactured wide Range of EMD series they sounding awesome
Butchers
Awesome video keep up the good work Visio racer
EMD uses roots too.
"Even at low-range RPM" *cuts to locomotives on notch 8 starting from a stop on a 2% incline*
man, those detroits are mean as hell
these make 13psi of manifold pressure if anyone was wondering the root blowers made 3psi 👍
EMD engines with roots blower has a more unique sound of typical two stroke end locomotives. All other EMDs sound like a GE engine
I learned a lot about 2 stroke diesels watching this! It would be extremely interesting to see if the EMD's turbo/supercharger could work in a car setting.
Cars are generally 4-stroke engines and have a throttle... so this design is not really applicable to cars.
4 stroke in cars/trucks suck! 2 stroke would be better for me,
I used to work on the Crawley tugboats the ones in Jacksonville Florida have to GM electromotive v20 engines and I loved working on them
Yes how about an ethanol piweeed EMD 20-710 with dry sump and lots of castor 927 maxima 2 stroke oil with VRO plumed in the fuel. That would be a fun experiment
@@jlo13800That would be a pointless experiment...
I have a request, coolest sounding fuel pumps… air dog, fass, Bosch 044, holly top fuel pumps, to name a few..
Too bad those 2 strokes couldn't pass the newest EPA tier 4 emission standards.. they still make it for export locomotives though
Awesome video! I always wondered where that sound came from. One little detail you didn’t get quite right was that aftercooled doesn’t mean using an intercooler. An intercooler is mounted in front of the radiator and exchanges turbo charge air with cool ambient air. An aftercooler (on a Detroit or Cummins truck engine) is part of the actual intake manifold and looks like a box. It exchanges charge air from the turbo with engine coolant. Not quite as effective, but the older trucks didn’t have room for an intercooler up front.
Intercooler and aftercooler are synonymous terms... they mean the exact same thing.
Sander Van der Kammen Regardless of wherever you got that information, in the US, on semi trucks, there is a definitive difference.
@@Flyboy207 No, there is not... some manufacturers use the terms interchangeably while others have a particular preference for one term over the other.
From a strictly technical definition both terms are synonymous and completely interchangeable.
Sander Van der Kammen Alright here’s what I’ll do. I’m going to work at a heavy diesel repair shop in an hour. I’ll ask every mechanic and the owner if there is a difference between an aftercooler and an intercooler. I still don’t think that will satisfy you though. My 1997 Dodge diesel has an intercooler. My 1963 Peterbilt with a 350 Cummins has an aftercooler. If I said I had a narrow nose, butterfly hood Peterbilt with an intercooler, people would ask how I fit it in between the radiator shutters and the radiator core.
@@Flyboy207 I think you are confused and misinformed... there are 2 basic types of intercooler.
Air-to-Air heat exchangers
And
Air-to-Water heat exchangers
Both are forms of intercoolers (or aftercooler) depending on the manufacturers preference.
This information is new to me !
Rus Clay you should visit a desiel engine machine shop in Manitowoc Wisconsin they'll probably have a major amount of eye candy 🍬 for you. Good luck Rus 👍.
Indian railways operate so mamy emds and every one loves the sound and throttle up , in night trains it is even better when the cabin is quiet and all u hear is the awesome sound of this 4500hp engine ... Sadly the days are gone now most routes are electrified there is no new orders or plans to purchase any Diesel locomotive for passenger in service. Only wdg6 and 7s are being produced with emd 4 stroke diesel atleast those bring back the sound of alcos. But again those are getting less and less use as new 12000hp & 7000hp electrics are taking over. On the new freight corridor the catenary is made to take double containers and they have specially designed pantograph that extend to the height. Probably in next 10yrs all diesels will be gone .. only few extremely rarely used rural routes will have emds serving. All the alocs are already being scraped now or given away/sold to porer nations.
So it's a procharger with a clutch that lets so of the wheel at a certain rpm so that the exhaust wheel can take over. Sweet.
No, it a standard turbocharger with a clutch that engages the crankshaft when the engine is at idle or no load.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 that's what I was trying to say
@@joshlewis5065 ProCharger doesn't make turbochargers.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 yeah no shit
@@joshlewis5065 Then why did you say its a ProCharger?
1:36 Pure music. I want a 12v71 so bad, I just can't afford one
Interesting and informative even though some of the Engineering is beyond my remit 🤔
Quality vid as always. Respect 👍
Thanks a lot buddy ❤️ Waiting for more informative videos.
GMs Cleveland 645 is my favorite engine
Please do more videos on EMD Locomotives
Would love for you to explain cylinder piling on an EMD engine. How is it done? Is oil consumed in the process? Etc.
There are nozzles under the pistons that spray high pressure oil into the bores, the pistons can rotate on the carrier which leads to more uniform wear and pop spread on the bores.
Wait, EMD two-stroke engines featured “turbochargers” that were driven off the crankshaft? Wouldn’t that make it a centrifugal supercharger, by definition?
Semantics aside, this is very interesting information. I had no idea about the turbo being driven by the engine. Thanks for the excellent video!
think of it as a twincharger, a turbo and a supercharger combined into one unit. the EMD design gradually transitions from a blower into a true turbo as the engine revs up.
@@bobsmith2637 Thank you, Bob, for the great insight.
It's a blower... not a supercharger, above a predetermined rpm it becomes a turbo-blower...not a turbocharger.
@@bobsmith2637No, think of it as a blower, Normally Aspirated.
Crank driven sometimes, turbine driven other times.
Technically these are hybrid superchargers. Turbine when powered by exhaust and conventional when powered directly from the crankshaft.
Technically its not a supercharger, its an exhaust driven scavanging blower... Normally aspirated instead of Naturally aspirated.
Sweet sounds of diesel locomotives 👍
How about an ethanol powered 2 stroke train Fairbanks morose OP with vro oil injection. Castor 927 maxima.
Thanks Visio
Not a new idea here. The Rolls-Royce Crecy had a similar turbosupercharger setup while being developed.
I could be wrong, but this looks similar to turbo-compound (not compound turbo) on old aero engines like the Duplex Cyclone.
Different concept... the turbo-compound couples the turbine to the crankshaft.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 they are both coupled to the crankshaft. I can see the EMD turbine is designed to boost low rpm performance whereas turbo-compounding is about scavenging energy from exhaust gas at peak rpm. I'm not an engineer though.
@@rolanddutton4723 I think the concept that gets lost with most people is the fact that 2-stroke Diesel engines do not use superchargers to increase performance.
The EMD engine will not start or run properly without the blower providing positive pressure into the air box.
The trick with the EMD turbo system is to have the fuel saving benefits of the turbocharger without the additional expense and complexity of having a supercharger _and_ a turbocharger.
I'm sure there is a future for a uniflow 2 stroke with an electrically assisted turbocharger that would be motorized at low rpm to ensure scavenging by drawing power from the alternator, yet generating electricity at high RPM as an electrical turbocompound.
I rather use the crankcase and a turbo. Look at the 850 Rotax etec turbo in new skidoos. Tge oil sump is separate which is dry sump VRO pump thingy that’s gets rid of the oil as this 2 stroke turns it into energy! Has any of you all stoooed to realize that. Sldo I run 6 gallons of BRP XD-100 in my 8v92 2 stroke turbo and done is let off and mixed with fuel. She’s running smoother with a bit more power now. Nothing beats synthetic 2 stroke oil.
3:22 710 or 720?
710
Learned something and for that I thank you.
Make a video about the most durable 2stroke bike
True story… I went to sleep thinking of how to make a 2 stroke engine with an oil filled sump and doesn’t burn oil with the fuel. I came up with this design using a supercharger. The next day I put the idea to a bloke I know, to find out it already fucking exists 😒
I've actually been thinking about potential solutions for forced induction along the same lines as of late, and I think I came up with a solutiom of my own.
Instead of using a complex twincharging setup, or an overbearing 2-in-1 design that relies on clutches, why not have two turbine blowers and a pulley/cog, all on a shaft with two inverted hybrid ratchet/flywheel clutches? The idea is that, if the engine is spinning the crank drive faster than the exhaust is spinning the turbo drive, then the system will run as supercharged, and there won't be any problems with parasitic power losses from the exhaust blower creating a vacuum and making the supercharger harder to drive. Then, once things start spinning up, the exhaust turbine spins up and the whole system falls entirely over to turbocharging once it's spinning fast enough to take over.
Regular ratcheting mechanisms would wear out too quickly due to the friction wear, so a hybrid between a ratchet and a flywheel clutch would be needed for longevity.
The ratchet for the supercharger cog would be toothed on the outside, and the one for the exhaust turbing would be toothed on the inside. When the engine is running low speed, the supercharger ratchet would be able to hook and be driven, while the turbo side wouldn't have enough momentum to pop out and drag (think of the clicking in a bycicle cassette, but too fast to even sound like clicking anymore.). But once the speed starts picking up, the teeth on the exhaust turbine would poke out, the shaft would start spinning with it, and the speed would force the teeth of the supercharger end to retract in.
Such a system could either be made decently compact, with all parts being on a single shaft, the exhaust turbine could run the system off center through gears to allow for a non-1:1 ratio between the exhaust and intake, or all parts of the system could be physically separate, and linked together via chain or belt drive, increasing complexity, but allowing the turbines to be a lot closer to the intake and exhaust, enabling reduced manifold volumes and as a result improving the pressure buildup characteristics on both ends, massively improving the response of the turbines.
This is my mechanical thought of the day, I guess.
I think you need to learn what a *sprag clutch* is....
@@sandervanderkammen9230 I think I do too.
When I think of a thing in the moment, it doesn't matter if it already exists, if it doesn't come to mind immediately what it is, I describe it instead.
@@kmemz There is a good animation of them in this video.
czcams.com/video/QjR7dimpSJA/video.html
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Now that I've been fully refreshed on what sprag clutches are, I don't think they'd do the purpose as well as what I described. What I described is more of a mix between a flywheel clutch and a ratcheting sprag, and would either lock or be prevented from locking depending on the speed of rotation as well as direction, whereas a more conventional sprag, including a ratcheting sprag and not just a friction sprag, would not be dependent on the speed of rotation, allowing for the system to be overdriven in some scenarios, causing issues down the line. Drive it fast enough and the internally flywheeled one would open up and let the exhaust turbing connect, drive is slow enough and the externally flywheeled one would slow down enough that the supercharger pulley would be connected to the system. I brainstormed this because it would be simple enough to do, it would prevent situations where a conventional sprag clutch could kick in when it shouldn't (such as a sudden engine RPM increase slamming the supercharger into action and hammering the ratchet in the sprag), and it would prevent wear, both from the prevoous example of RPM hammering the supercharger pulley, and from constantly skipping teeth and generating heat from being driven at very high RPM for extended periods of time.
@@kmemz The sprag clutch is absolutely perfect for task... its also exactly what EMD uses.
Sprag clutchs are incredibly strong and durable.
Nearly every vehicle with an automatic transmission has at least one sprag clutch which can handle the entire torque of the engine and vehicle.
In off-road mining trucks (which are powered by locomotive engines) we are talking about over 4,000 hp, thousands of foot-pounds of torque.
The EMD turbo system is optimized for 2-stroke Diesel engines.
These types of engines operate at relatively low rpm
Idle 200 rpm
Redline 900 rpm
These large Diesel engines generally have some type of governor operated fuel controls
So tend to rev-up and idle down slowly.
Also important to note.
The supercharger impeller is driven at a 18:1 ratio.
This means a 3,500 rpm impeller rpm at idle (200 rpm).
No load max impeller speed 16,000 rpm (clutch engaged crankshaft rpm 900)
Full load max. Power setting impeller rpm is 19,000 ( clutch disengaged engine speed 900 rpm)
I hope that clarified a few things.
_Cheers!_
Well explained!
Thanks for the information.
I love this channel 👍
I'm surprised you covered emd design
Winton type engines
YEAAA LOCOMOTIVES!!!!!
Danke
The more O2 packed in to a combustion chamber the better bang for your buck. I wonder what the limits are to this concept? How much further can it be pushed to get more work out of the fuel that is being used?
Not the same as turbocharging a 4-stroke...
@Alfred Wedmore So why are 2-stroke Diesel engines more efficient than jet engines???
@Alfred Wedmore Well, its obvious you are not an engineer...
@Alfred Wedmore Its very apparent from the egregious errors in your comment that you have absolutely no formal education or professional experience in thermodynamics...
@Alfred Wedmore You are joking right?
Thank s
thank you
Does it have a variable gear drive just like that old Super-turbocharger concept video?
so its basicly a pro charger?
So if it's driven by engine power and not exhaust gas wouldn't it still be a supercharger? Detroit diesel used a roots positive displacement blower your talking about a centrifugal blower that uses a turbo type compressor but not operated by exhaust gas. So I believe it's still supercharged as it's gear driven, not exhaust driven.
Depends on the crankshaft and turbine rpms, when the turbine spools up it overrides the coupling and disconnects from the slower turning crankshaft.
I think all 2 stroke diesels have been discontinued from all manufacturers since the 1990s.
MAN, Wärtsilä, Malyshev and Mitsubishi still make them.
the EMD 710 is still in new production today, and so is the Fairbanks-Morse 38 8-1/8 opposed piston. both meet the US EPA Tier-IV emission standards with urea aftertreatment.
Had always wanted to see a non turbo roots blown version of EMD's 20 cylinder 645 series. Was never offered. Cant seem to find out if this was ever tried even on an experimental level at EMD.
Fuel consumption would have killed any interest in that design...
What was that last locomotive shown at 3:53?
Indian Railways WDP-4, basically a EMD SD70MAC in a different body.
My 2 strokes are cool again!!!!!
Talking about force induction diesel engines, i wonder if there's a chance you would do a video on the diesel engine setups used in semi-/truck-/tractor pulling sports. Takes them ages to rev up and make lots of boost, they need much more diesel fuel pumped into the cylinders, and i guess they add a water injection system which gets activated just short before the engine has to deal with the heavy load, for cooling reasons. I guess water injection is what changes exhaust fumes to very dense black smoke - but i actually don't know and would like to learn about it. Regards ^-^,
No manifold boost on these engines... tractor pull guys run 4-stroke engines with _staged turbos_
Diesel engines run much leaner air-to-fuel ratio than gasoline engines between 17:1 and as lean as 70:1
Black soot forms at around 21:1 and gets thicker and more black as the AFR gets richer..
Richer AFR makes more power but the engine runs hotter (the opposite of gasoline engines)
.Water injection helps cooling in a Diesel engine.
A lot of them run 2 strokes too. 2 pshysho 8v82 quad turbo. A lot of the 4 joke Fidel’s are converted into poppet valve loop charged 2 stroke for maximum power at lower rpm than can be obtained with the 4 joke cycle.mart.cummins.com/imagelibrary/data/assetfiles/0058689.pdf
So basically it's an engine driven turbocharger that is providing boost over & above what is normally required for the scavenging on a 2 stroke diesel in one unit -instead of using a supercharger for the scavenging & a separate turbocharger to provide boost. Seems pretty logical to me, less components.
No boost, maximum manifold pressure at sea level is + 0.7 psi.
The exhaust turbine uses waste heat energy from the exhaust gasses to scavange, creating additional power at the crankshaft that would otherwise be used to drive the scavanging blower.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 isn't boost when manifold pressure is anything above atmospheric pressure?
No boost, just altitude compensation
@@sandervanderkammen9230 ah ok, that makes sense
@@phil955i yes boost is any thing above atmospheric pressure as you are boosting the pressure going in to the engine.