I always wanted to revisit this, because I was so hopeful I'd be able to restore Simon's role in this whole thing. I'm so glad I finally got a chance to see this whole thing restored correctly! I hope youse didn't mind the technical focus to the whole video, but I think when it comes to a character as adored as Maria, I'd be savaged if I left a single detail untold :D
Because I don't have a PSN account on my console, I can't share my saves in any way. I also don't have a Save Editor. I'll do my best to keep working on making it possible for this patch to be shared, but at the moment I don't have a way to do it.
Lance McDonald You wouldn't have to actually have an active PSN to share. Just copying the save to USB from the console, zipping it, and uploading it to a site of your choice would be all you would have to do on your end. Someone with a Save Editor can then take that save and just resign it with their own PSN ID(like how it worked on PS3) and then the save could be used on their console. :) If you want to know more about it, feel free to message me. Either way, thanks for all you do man!
I think this may have been cut to make Simon a more sympathetic character. In the finished game, he's mysterious and a bit sinister but he ultimately serves a helpful and friendly NPC until his death. His potential actions towards Ludwig can easily be seen as a mercy killing. This means that, should a player make it to the end of his questline, they would be galvanized to avenge Simon, making them seek out Brador, and cementing Brador as an antagonistic, if vaguely tragic, character. However, had Simon killed the seemingly gentle and kind Maria, it would have made him seem to be someone who would commit all manner of heinous acts to uncover the secret of the Nightmare, and cast a much more sinister light on his earlier actions towards Ludwig. Had his questline ended the same way, the roles may have been reversed, with Simon being seen as antagonistic, getting what he deserved at the hands of Brador, and Brador being seen as the honorable and just, if eccentric, guardian of the Nightmare's secrets.
While I completely agree with everything you’re saying, I would like to point out how out of character that would be for FromSoftware. If we look at the game as a whole it’s hard to point to a definitive antagonist or even protagonist, as it is all a matter of perspective. Such a quest filling Simon’s role would do the same. The character to be left to determine for themself the connecting dots between these characters and derive their own interpretation, just as the rest of the game is. So yes, I agree with you in the sense of what taking this out has accomplished, but disagree strongly that this was the reason behind the cut content.
@Sara Galindo that's why she becomes a caretaker in healing church to help the patients there to atone for her mistakes she has done everyone deserves a second chance that was her chance to do some right things by helping people because she knew they were suffering so she chose to ease their suffering a bit by helping them however she could and the patients there held her in high regard as a great caretaker who cared for them deeply
@Sara Galindo hmm that's true now that you say that tho it still feels weird why they chose to cut this content maybe instead of simon devs wanted to make us sympathetic towards maria that she couldn't leave with what she has done and chose to kill herself tho which you explain it that would be her own doing like paying the price for what she's done and commit suicide
Sara Galindo true that could be really not much of lore about characters in soulsborne its less of a story telling game where it tells you about every character and place but rather vague with backstories to make your own headcanon i always thought it weird why maria protects the secrets either could be she is so ashamed of her past she stops people from knowing it, could be that she thinks its best to leave orphan alone and stops people from harming him further, it could be that she's just testing the hunter if they are really upto the task to fight orphan or could be she is host of kos nightmare is protecting her or maybe she just now hates hunters and church so much that she is preventing anyone from ending to let hunters suffer could be anything your headcanon makes it to be based on personal beliefs it works same way for most soul series characters so i personally from what i've seen don't think of maria as a bad person if she is sympathetic enough to help patients then why is she hiding the secrets must be some of her personal reason we don't know and neither devs wants maybe we'll know whenever bloodborne 2 comes and maybe they will reveal some twist maria was trying to prevent you from killing orphan for some reason or it might not mention her at all All i'm saying is its based on personal belief what you want to make it i personally don't believe maria to be a an evil person atleast not yet until we know more about anything that's something i like and dislike about soul series its vague so you can make your personal headcanons but its vague so you can't know fully of character's intentions
Doubtful, as From left in Simon killing Ludwig, who was less of a willing participant in the whole thing, which also sets it up that Simon doesn't kill maliciously. With Maria, it's no different. Maria was guarding the Hamlet of her own volition, and would have to die regardless. This would be kind of akin to Friede, who is friendly at first, and also urging you to leave well enough alone. Also it would make Simon seem like less of an idiot, because in the version we got, he's basically telling us to kill someone who's already dead. Doesn't make much sense.
I believe that Vaati pointed out the interesting fact that the Japanese text makes it fairly clear that when Maria talks about leaving a corpse alone she's talking not about herself, but about the body of Kos.
"死体漁りとは、感心しないな だが、分かるよ。秘密は甘いものだ だからこそ、恐ろしい死が必要なのさ ⋯愚かな好奇を、忘れるようなね" "*Rummaging through corpses isn't very admirable. But, I understand. The secret is too sweet. Therefore, a gruesome death is necessary. ...To make you forget your foolish curiosity." *漁り - asari - Means to search through or rummage for something, but it is also an archaism used to describe fishing, making it somewhat of a pun. (c)Retranslation by LastProtagonist
While that could make sense I really doubt it. It makes complete sense in the context of the cut content where you approach her after she's presumed dead. It may refer to both.
That happens to other npcs sometimes too. I don't think it's tied to an event I always figured it was his placement being refreshed. Like how a area is refreshed if gone too far into a separate area
I've had that happen in my game before. It really confused me for a good minute as to why my boi Simon was all of a sudden considerably shorter than my hunter.....
Does anyone else feel like this is very much a prototype of Friede from Dark Souls 3? A powerful and mysterious woman who at first tries to dissuade you from a hidden secret, only to fight you after?
Pacing perhaps? I imagine it would be frustrating to get to there and not realize you would have to kill her or reload to let Simon do it. Either way it seems like it would be a little clunky
It used to be two DLCs. I think this is where the first one probably would have ended. When they merged into one it was probably Unnecessary to have her talk.
I guess letting Maria call the player "Good Hunter" made the connection to the doll too explicit? Seems like an awful lot of work to lose in the name of being subtle, though...
I've always interpreted Maria being dead as a result of her nightmare coming to life in the form of the Hunter's Nightmare causing her to commit suicide, but I've felt that there were a lot of unanswered questions with that theory. But this whole other part of the game finally gives an answer that actually makes sense. So I have no idea why they would cut this out. Side note: all your videos are super interesting, keep em coming!
They must have cut it, because not everybody knows (i dont know how) that for changes to take effect they have to revisite the place (backtracking) so if you did all this and do not come back later, you would have missed the whole fight, a pitty really, because backtracking is a huge part of the game, but not everybody does it...
My guess is that they realized that they didn't want the player to be forced to kill her unprovoked when she was non-hostile. Having Simon do it was obviously their attempt to get around that, but it has its own host of issues. For example, the player could have killed Simon earlier, forcing the player to kill non-hostile Maria to advance. Also, Simon killing Maria only when the player reloads the area by leaving and coming back is awkward and could cause many players to miss the rest of the DLC entirely. Doing it the way they did in the final version makes things a little odd that she's dead when you find her, but it ultimately fits into the rest of the game fine and avoids the issues I mentioned.
That's how I interpret it. It's more interesting that way honestly. FromSoft games tend to show the consequences of a character's actions before you meet them, and I think this is their best example of it. As an aside, I think "A corpse should be left well alone" is a double entendre, referring to both her own corpse and the corpse of Kos.
Probably because initially the DLC was planned as a two part DLC,so it would make sense to stop at Maria,but From Software decided to turn the DLC into one.
Honestly they shouldn't have cut this dialogue tree. It gives more personality and depth to maria and Simon and more insight into what takes place at the clocktower. To me, maria is one of the best boss fights combat wise, but lore wise most of what we know about her is only speculation.....
I love Maria's cut dialogue when you wake her corpse. It reminds me of the voice actress' similar role in giving the, "Come, be good," dialogue at the end of Demon's Souls when the Maiden in Black calls down the Old One. It's taunting and chilling. SO good!
All interesting insights! It's great to experience Maria's cut dialogue in action. I personally think they changed the narrative throughout production to tie into the events in the Fishing Hamlet better. In the final version, Simon couldn't have been the one who killed her because all of the doors are unlocked first by you. I always made the assumption that Simon wasn't strong enough to make it through the Nightmare areas, so he waits for you to clear them first.
that's a good point BUT it seems that he only kills her NPC version, and she only comes back as a hard to kill boss after being "killed" once, as you can also kill her seated version fairly easily
Michela Honestly, I think Maria let Simon get past her so the other hunter in the Fishing Hamlet (I forgot his name) could cut him down easily before he could discover anything truly meaningful. The reason she aggros and fights at her true power against the player and not Simon is probably because we know that she knows it was the player who cleared out the Research Hall and discovered the horrifyingly torturous habits of the Healing Church - not Simon. Likewise, in her cut dialogue, she talks to the Hunter in a disappointed and disgusted fashion as if hoping/anticipating that the “Good Hunter” wouldn’t return and stay away from the nightmare. As to why From Soft cut it out: I have no idea. To be honest, I quite like this version of the Astral Clocktower more so than the one we got officially as it adds an entirely new dynamic to the DLC lore and NPC interactions.
That's an interesting take, Not Fizz. That could be the case, I've spent time speculating as to whether Maria stays in the clocktower as to keep the nightmare alive. This could be to punish Hunters for their past transgressions and also to keep punishing herself because the guilt for taking at least some part in it was eating at her. I personally think Simon let you clear the area and kill Maria so that he could get past into the fishing hamlet unscathed. In the final game, that's how it seemed. However, this cut content is an interesting take on their original intentions. I believe it was cut for a reason, but it's awesome that Lance was able to delve into the coding and reveal their process!
Thanks, Beer Told! Her dialogue is pretty intriguing, but I feel that it takes the impact out of her appearance in the final game. What it does do is explain how she empathizes with the patients so much that she sees their suffering and considers them "freed" once the Hunter clears them from the Research Hall. Yes, I love when she says, "My Hunter!" Oh mannn that gives me emotions.
Iffem what are you on lmao shes super easy I even solo'd her first try. Must not be good with reposte or dodging. Not saying git gud but even with Ludwig's sword brute strength your hits stun her trick to every bloodborne boss is staying aggressive and on your toes and on them don't give them space unless AOE
Sad they cut this! This makes Maria fit in more with the rest of the DLC in my opinion. Although I bet they cut it because play testers couldnt figure out they needed to actually kill Maria after talking to her to progress
@@DebugMenu What if you talk to Maria while she's alive, go back and kill Simon, and then talk to Maria again? Or what if you talk to Maria, kill Simon, then exit the area and come back, does she stay there for the rest of the game?
the player killing her definitely adds a bit more to the pre-fight cutscene, as the shocked response definitely makes more sense for seeing a person you just killed alive and well
A prequel to Bloodborne, events that caused it to happen. Laurence spreading the Old Blood. The Workshop establishment. Mensis' experiments, Bygernwerth's founding of Chalice Dungeons.
Thank you lance! It's incredible that there's still things you can do in bloodborne like this - I thought I'd seen it all after the recent chalice dungeons reveal with zulle the witch. This is just so cool, and I hope you can find more!
love how you walk through the process step by step and in a way that makes it understandable too!! I feel like the real treat of your videos is seeing the process and how you work through it, it's so cool : ]
Thank you for explaining how the game checks the event flags and going into such detail :3 Your content is so interesting and highly regarded Lance, thank you!
Really awesome video, thank you - such an elegant way of seeing something that I really wish had made it to the final cut of the game. Either way, we get to see it now thanks to you, so, thank you!
This is really amazing. It's like finding the missing pieces of the puzzle! I love Bloodborne and you, Lance, for giving me quite an insight. Keep up the good work! :-)
Reminds me a bit of Sister Friede from DS3. She's guarding an alternate realm for the sake of someone else, she tells you to go away, you interfere, then she fights you.
That was incredibly interesting, both regarding the technical aspects of how you accomplished this, and the cut content itself. Please keep doing content like this, it's always nice seeing what could have been
I'm so glad I subbed to you awhile back because this is some amazing shit! Wish you had more subscribers because I feel like every fan of Bloodborne should see this. Keep up the great work brother!
I love how the cliffs look like fortifications. There's nothing natural about them at all. After dropping down from the clockface walk along the isthmus and look up and left and you'll see what I mean. I haven't been able to pin any reason however
As always, keep up the good work! As nice as it is to see expansive they were originally going with the game, I honestly like the final version of the encounter with Maria the best. There’s something about entering that place expecting to talk to the person who’ve you have heard so much about, only to see that she’s already “dead.” I honestly expected a giant monster to pop out, but no, just sexy asmr and a sword to the face.
Fantastic video, mate. It was interesting to see what could have been but just didn't make the cut. Bloodborne is still a near flawless masterpiece of art in its final form, but I do wish if nothing else, this was kept in given how important Maria is in the lore of Bloodborne and the fantastic voice acting on Evetta Muradasilova's part. Ah well, still one of the best boss fights in video game history for me.
This is fantastic. Incredible detail in this game, and incredible of you to have found it. It makes me wonder what else is lost in the save files, what more is there to learn of this game.
Dude, this is great!! Thank you for doing it. I don't understand.. when this was so well done and complete, why not leave it? Expand on the best character of the game?
I think, with FROMSOFT, they prefer to leave things in your imagination. Maria was a much different character in my imagination before seeing this, and I think that's what FROMSOFTWARE wanted.
@@DebugMenu It really seems like a bad habit FROM has picked up in my opinion, where they cut swathes out of a title and staple the parts together, declaring the result 'ambiguous'. It's rather frustrating when you try and understand the lore of Bloodborne or Dark Souls 3 as presented in game only to learn much later that so much has been made incomprehensible by changes to the game during its development.
Lance McDonald I think they removed it because people might not know if she was a boss or not, so Fromsoft made it more straightforward so the player wouldn’t get confused.
Yeah, I get that feeling as well. She is a great character, and quite a sad one.. possibly not giving her MORE lines makes her more appealing as a tragic "hero" when compared to the dialogue she would have.
Well there was an interview with The Guardian and Miyazaki and it said "When Hidetaka Miyazaki was a child, he was a keen reader, though not a talented one. Often he’d reach passages of text he couldn’t understand, and so would allow his imagination to fill in the blanks, using the accompanying illustrations. In this way, he felt he was co-writing the fiction alongside its original author. The thrill of this process never left him - and it is very much there in his arcane and fascinating video games, the latest of which, Bloodborne, has just been released to wild acclaim." Knowing that, it's pretty clear that he wants the player to do the same and fill in the story themselves. Pretty neat imo!
Aww thanks Lance :) My Soulsborne channel finally has the Lance seal of approval. I can die happy. Everyone here is probably used to amazing content, considering how awesome Lance is at what he does, but if you ever need a break from the good content, I have a whole anthology of stuff that should be heard by no one, such as The Doll (Podcast with JSF): czcams.com/video/NiFgBw29yNI/video.html Maria (Podcast with JSF and Jeremy Greer from DGUS): czcams.com/video/9l9kUKxOmY4/video.html The Maria lore that started it all: czcams.com/video/cDVngLNsA3o/video.html Why Ludwig Killed Maria: czcams.com/video/6ul2-1YgfpI/video.html Ludwgid admitting he Killed Maria: czcams.com/video/LEAQHXpV8HM/video.html
WTF FromSoft WTF!!! This is so damn interesting, and the technical side of this is amazing, I love it! Please do more kinds of technical/in depth types of stuff with Bloodborne, or the Souls Series if you can! Thanks for the awesome video :D So many secrets still to uncover...
wow just when I thought there was nothing left to discover in Bloodborne, I find your videos in my feed. It's amazing how detailed the developers were when making their games! And you Sir Lance, are a legend in this community for having the computer skills and passion for delving further into the Nightmare to share your Insight with the rest of us peasants!
This is fascinating. Man, the complete Maria conversation log was awesome. Jaw on floor, mostly because she’s my favorite, but it also indicates (now with 100% certainty) that the Doll was modeled after Maria.
It was probably done to make a cooler scene. I'll tell you, finding her "dead" in the Clocktower was quite something. It was a mystery. Moreso in that I was not expecting her to be a Hunter, and especially not the Hunter on the cover of the Old Hunters. And then I got a good look at her. The... Doll? holy crap I was right. The Doll's template was a Hunter. I consider her to be more "sleeping" then dead in the finished game, the blood being due to her blood skills than an actual mortal wound since we see her stabbing herself in her boss fight. Or she "killed" herself so she could watch over the patients and the Hamlet in undeath forever. I remember that "Inspect Corpse" prompt and thinking "Uh oh". Now, from a technical standpoint, her being "dead" was done so that we could initiate the boss fight, since that was the only way they programmed it. Also the cutscene.
Hey Lance, really cool stuff ! I personally really enjoyed this type of video where you go into more technical details and the process of restoring some of that content, it's more engaging as a viewer for me at least. I was wondering, have you had a chance to look at stuff concerning Annalise ? Her line "This chamber was made not for one alone..." and the existence of the Betrothal Ring definitely implies that there was initially more to that story and I'd really love to know if there's more stuff about that in the files. Anyways, keep up the great work, love it !
Why did they cut this!!? This looks so amazing for the lore of the game, man thank u very much for the video, really cool to see both the content and how u got it :)
The player character kind of looks like Nicolas Cage. Bloodborne movie starring him when?? 😂 I don't know how you discover or restore this stuff time and time again, but it always amazes me 👌 great job
I always wanted to revisit this, because I was so hopeful I'd be able to restore Simon's role in this whole thing. I'm so glad I finally got a chance to see this whole thing restored correctly! I hope youse didn't mind the technical focus to the whole video, but I think when it comes to a character as adored as Maria, I'd be savaged if I left a single detail untold :D
Lance McDonald amazing content as always Lance!! Thank you very much!!
This is awesome! Any chance of ever uploading the saves so others can resign it with Save Wizard and dabble around in the cut content as well?
Because I don't have a PSN account on my console, I can't share my saves in any way. I also don't have a Save Editor. I'll do my best to keep working on making it possible for this patch to be shared, but at the moment I don't have a way to do it.
Can you make mod to bring Anti-Aliasing in the game back?
Lance McDonald You wouldn't have to actually have an active PSN to share. Just copying the save to USB from the console, zipping it, and uploading it to a site of your choice would be all you would have to do on your end. Someone with a Save Editor can then take that save and just resign it with their own PSN ID(like how it worked on PS3) and then the save could be used on their console. :) If you want to know more about it, feel free to message me. Either way, thanks for all you do man!
Sony: You, Lance, are insufferable! Oh, I know very well how cut content beckons so sweetly. Only a PSN ban will cure you now.
Liberate you from your wild curiosity!!
Tonight, moderators join *The Hunt*
$ONY will join the HOONT tonight!
A console game should be left well enough alone
It's his avatar, I would ban that too
Maria: “You, girl, are insufferable.”
Hunter: 😐
hunter doesn't get affected by anything ... strong soul
I like how the player character has a blank, dead stare the entire time
Just like Woody from Toy Story
It's because he/she is dreaming
Though their posture is frightened
It kinda breaks the mood for me
Reminds me of the MC from Pokemon Sun/moon.
8:30 She was like: I'm dead. Nope, this is not right, let me adjust my position... nope... nope... nooooope... definitely nope. Now that's better.
Ahaha underrated comment
I don’t know why, but Maria grabbing your arm and saying in a 100% serious tone “you girl, are insufferable” is really really funny to me
i can literally feel her breath on my face
It seems like bloodborne will never stop surprising us... isn’t that amazing?
Роман Тарасов foreal it’s insane that this one off title is still being examined and producing new insights this long after release
Viktor_V/-\ughn* Da_Vaudville*_villaiN•• ha haha ...insights...i see wat u did there
game made from gold
It's a full blown masterpiece
Yeah I love when finished content is cut from the player and left on disc, inaccessible. Such value.
I think this may have been cut to make Simon a more sympathetic character. In the finished game, he's mysterious and a bit sinister but he ultimately serves a helpful and friendly NPC until his death. His potential actions towards Ludwig can easily be seen as a mercy killing. This means that, should a player make it to the end of his questline, they would be galvanized to avenge Simon, making them seek out Brador, and cementing Brador as an antagonistic, if vaguely tragic, character. However, had Simon killed the seemingly gentle and kind Maria, it would have made him seem to be someone who would commit all manner of heinous acts to uncover the secret of the Nightmare, and cast a much more sinister light on his earlier actions towards Ludwig. Had his questline ended the same way, the roles may have been reversed, with Simon being seen as antagonistic, getting what he deserved at the hands of Brador, and Brador being seen as the honorable and just, if eccentric, guardian of the Nightmare's secrets.
While I completely agree with everything you’re saying, I would like to point out how out of character that would be for FromSoftware. If we look at the game as a whole it’s hard to point to a definitive antagonist or even protagonist, as it is all a matter of perspective. Such a quest filling Simon’s role would do the same. The character to be left to determine for themself the connecting dots between these characters and derive their own interpretation, just as the rest of the game is. So yes, I agree with you in the sense of what taking this out has accomplished, but disagree strongly that this was the reason behind the cut content.
@Sara Galindo that's why she becomes a caretaker in healing church to help the patients there to atone for her mistakes she has done everyone deserves a second chance that was her chance to do some right things by helping people because she knew they were suffering so she chose to ease their suffering a bit by helping them however she could and the patients there held her in high regard as a great caretaker who cared for them deeply
@Sara Galindo hmm that's true now that you say that tho it still feels weird why they chose to cut this content maybe instead of simon devs wanted to make us sympathetic towards maria that she couldn't leave with what she has done and chose to kill herself tho which you explain it that would be her own doing like paying the price for what she's done and commit suicide
Sara Galindo true that could be really not much of lore about characters in soulsborne its less of a story telling game where it tells you about every character and place but rather vague with backstories to make your own headcanon i always thought it weird why maria protects the secrets either could be she is so ashamed of her past she stops people from knowing it, could be that she thinks its best to leave orphan alone and stops people from harming him further, it could be that she's just testing the hunter if they are really upto the task to fight orphan or could be she is host of kos nightmare is protecting her or maybe she just now hates hunters and church so much that she is preventing anyone from ending to let hunters suffer could be anything your headcanon makes it to be based on personal beliefs it works same way for most soul series characters so i personally from what i've seen don't think of maria as a bad person if she is sympathetic enough to help patients then why is she hiding the secrets must be some of her personal reason we don't know and neither devs wants maybe we'll know whenever bloodborne 2 comes and maybe they will reveal some twist maria was trying to prevent you from killing orphan for some reason or it might not mention her at all
All i'm saying is its based on personal belief what you want to make it i personally don't believe maria to be a an evil person atleast not yet until we know more about anything that's something i like and dislike about soul series its vague so you can make your personal headcanons but its vague so you can't know fully of character's intentions
Doubtful, as From left in Simon killing Ludwig, who was less of a willing participant in the whole thing, which also sets it up that Simon doesn't kill maliciously. With Maria, it's no different. Maria was guarding the Hamlet of her own volition, and would have to die regardless. This would be kind of akin to Friede, who is friendly at first, and also urging you to leave well enough alone.
Also it would make Simon seem like less of an idiot, because in the version we got, he's basically telling us to kill someone who's already dead. Doesn't make much sense.
This is enormous! I’ve never heard of someone patching back in an entire quest line to bloodborne with such an elegant method!!!
It is pretty awesome. But calm down dude
@Beer Told Praise you...praise the whole damn church 🍷
-Crush rat
-Elegant
You can pick one XD
Fear da old Blood
I believe that Vaati pointed out the interesting fact that the Japanese text makes it fairly clear that when Maria talks about leaving a corpse alone she's talking not about herself, but about the body of Kos.
Cool
It's a double entendre
"死体漁りとは、感心しないな
だが、分かるよ。秘密は甘いものだ
だからこそ、恐ろしい死が必要なのさ
⋯愚かな好奇を、忘れるようなね"
"*Rummaging through corpses isn't very admirable.
But, I understand. The secret is too sweet.
Therefore, a gruesome death is necessary.
...To make you forget your foolish curiosity."
*漁り - asari - Means to search through or rummage for something, but it is also an archaism used to describe fishing, making it somewhat of a pun. (c)Retranslation by LastProtagonist
@@Xgenstudioz777 so would "asari" be better translated as "trawl" in English, rather than rummage?
While that could make sense I really doubt it. It makes complete sense in the context of the cut content where you approach her after she's presumed dead. It may refer to both.
“My hunter” ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
"You boy, are insufferable"
Wowzers, my trousers!
@@poly_g6068 what if my character was an old man tho
@@pandinus1377 maria is prob still older seeing as shes one of the old hunters
she has such a lovely accent doesn't she?
Gross.
Also did anyone else notice that if you run to Maria, then back to Simon, he's half sunk into the floor upto his ankles? Weird.
I did notice that. I just don't have a reliable manner if showing people.
What happens if u kill maria but do not trigger the bos fight and then go back to talk to simon?
That happens to other npcs sometimes too. I don't think it's tied to an event I always figured it was his placement being refreshed. Like how a area is refreshed if gone too far into a separate area
I've had that happen in my game before.
It really confused me for a good minute as to why my boi Simon was all of a sudden considerably shorter than my hunter.....
I thought he was just short
Does anyone else feel like this is very much a prototype of Friede from Dark Souls 3? A powerful and mysterious woman who at first tries to dissuade you from a hidden secret, only to fight you after?
Friede even shares this Spiral jump Attack with Maria.
Yes but Maria is better
@@emmanuelgayosso4827 Maria has better lore, while Friede's boss fight is better.
@Alâ simp
@Luis Martinez Gael was such a shit experience that it was the final From thing I've touched.
Why didn't they keep this?! This is so cool!
Ppl asked better boss in regular game. They decided to make her NON OPTIONAL and I'm glad that they did that. Maria fight is too good to be skippable
She doesnt really seems optional here, cause she still protects kos (or some say kosm)
@@valeckseimu3132 yeah even if simon kills her you still have to fight her to get the clockwork mechanism thingy, or so it seems
Pacing perhaps? I imagine it would be frustrating to get to there and not realize you would have to kill her or reload to let Simon do it. Either way it seems like it would be a little clunky
It used to be two DLCs. I think this is where the first one probably would have ended. When they merged into one it was probably Unnecessary to have her talk.
I guess letting Maria call the player "Good Hunter" made the connection to the doll too explicit? Seems like an awful lot of work to lose in the name of being subtle, though...
I've always interpreted Maria being dead as a result of her nightmare coming to life in the form of the Hunter's Nightmare causing her to commit suicide, but I've felt that there were a lot of unanswered questions with that theory. But this whole other part of the game finally gives an answer that actually makes sense. So I have no idea why they would cut this out.
Side note: all your videos are super interesting, keep em coming!
They must have cut it, because not everybody knows (i dont know how) that for changes to take effect they have to revisite the place (backtracking) so if you did all this and do not come back later, you would have missed the whole fight, a pitty really, because backtracking is a huge part of the game, but not everybody does it...
My guess is that they realized that they didn't want the player to be forced to kill her unprovoked when she was non-hostile. Having Simon do it was obviously their attempt to get around that, but it has its own host of issues. For example, the player could have killed Simon earlier, forcing the player to kill non-hostile Maria to advance. Also, Simon killing Maria only when the player reloads the area by leaving and coming back is awkward and could cause many players to miss the rest of the DLC entirely. Doing it the way they did in the final version makes things a little odd that she's dead when you find her, but it ultimately fits into the rest of the game fine and avoids the issues I mentioned.
Some random guy on the internet o
That's how I interpret it. It's more interesting that way honestly. FromSoft games tend to show the consequences of a character's actions before you meet them, and I think this is their best example of it.
As an aside, I think "A corpse should be left well alone" is a double entendre, referring to both her own corpse and the corpse of Kos.
Probably because initially the DLC was planned as a two part DLC,so it would make sense to stop at Maria,but From Software decided to turn the DLC into one.
Honestly they shouldn't have cut this dialogue tree. It gives more personality and depth to maria and Simon and more insight into what takes place at the clocktower. To me, maria is one of the best boss fights combat wise, but lore wise most of what we know about her is only speculation.....
I love Maria's cut dialogue when you wake her corpse. It reminds me of the voice actress' similar role in giving the, "Come, be good," dialogue at the end of Demon's Souls when the Maiden in Black calls down the Old One. It's taunting and chilling. SO good!
All interesting insights! It's great to experience Maria's cut dialogue in action.
I personally think they changed the narrative throughout production to tie into the events in the Fishing Hamlet better. In the final version, Simon couldn't have been the one who killed her because all of the doors are unlocked first by you. I always made the assumption that Simon wasn't strong enough to make it through the Nightmare areas, so he waits for you to clear them first.
that's a good point BUT it seems that he only kills her NPC version, and she only comes back as a hard to kill boss after being "killed" once, as you can also kill her seated version fairly easily
Michela Honestly, I think Maria let Simon get past her so the other hunter in the Fishing Hamlet (I forgot his name) could cut him down easily before he could discover anything truly meaningful.
The reason she aggros and fights at her true power against the player and not Simon is probably because we know that she knows it was the player who cleared out the Research Hall and discovered the horrifyingly torturous habits of the Healing Church - not Simon. Likewise, in her cut dialogue, she talks to the Hunter in a disappointed and disgusted fashion as if hoping/anticipating that the “Good Hunter” wouldn’t return and stay away from the nightmare.
As to why From Soft cut it out: I have no idea. To be honest, I quite like this version of the Astral Clocktower more so than the one we got officially as it adds an entirely new dynamic to the DLC lore and NPC interactions.
That's an interesting take, Not Fizz. That could be the case, I've spent time speculating as to whether Maria stays in the clocktower as to keep the nightmare alive. This could be to punish Hunters for their past transgressions and also to keep punishing herself because the guilt for taking at least some part in it was eating at her. I personally think Simon let you clear the area and kill Maria so that he could get past into the fishing hamlet unscathed. In the final game, that's how it seemed. However, this cut content is an interesting take on their original intentions. I believe it was cut for a reason, but it's awesome that Lance was able to delve into the coding and reveal their process!
Thanks, Beer Told! Her dialogue is pretty intriguing, but I feel that it takes the impact out of her appearance in the final game. What it does do is explain how she empathizes with the patients so much that she sees their suffering and considers them "freed" once the Hunter clears them from the Research Hall.
Yes, I love when she says, "My Hunter!" Oh mannn that gives me emotions.
Iffem what are you on lmao shes super easy I even solo'd her first try. Must not be good with reposte or dodging. Not saying git gud but even with Ludwig's sword brute strength your hits stun her trick to every bloodborne boss is staying aggressive and on your toes and on them don't give them space unless AOE
Sad they cut this! This makes Maria fit in more with the rest of the DLC in my opinion. Although I bet they cut it because play testers couldnt figure out they needed to actually kill Maria after talking to her to progress
I agree.
What about if You kill simon at first sight ?
Damnit I didn't try that hahahah!
Then probably Maria will stay alive, forcing you to kill her yourself to advance.
@@DebugMenu what if u kill Maria without fighting her n return to Simon. Maybe he gives u stuff as rewarding
there's an idea for the next video
@@DebugMenu What if you talk to Maria while she's alive, go back and kill Simon, and then talk to Maria again? Or what if you talk to Maria, kill Simon, then exit the area and come back, does she stay there for the rest of the game?
the player killing her definitely adds a bit more to the pre-fight cutscene, as the shocked response definitely makes more sense for seeing a person you just killed alive and well
A prequel to BB from Lady Maria perspective would be damn epic.
With elements from Sekiro to make it more a like a character driven singleplayer action-adventure?
Alfreduss or a prequel from Gehrman would be cool too
A prequel to Bloodborne, events that caused it to happen. Laurence spreading the Old Blood. The Workshop establishment. Mensis' experiments, Bygernwerth's founding of Chalice Dungeons.
Simon kills Maria and goes insane -> blood crazed Simon fight in place of Maria
That'd Would be neat
Thank you lance! It's incredible that there's still things you can do in bloodborne like this - I thought I'd seen it all after the recent chalice dungeons reveal with zulle the witch. This is just so cool, and I hope you can find more!
love how you walk through the process step by step and in a way that makes it understandable too!! I feel like the real treat of your videos is seeing the process and how you work through it, it's so cool : ]
Thank you so much for making these. I love Lady Maria and I am always excited to see more of her.
I absolutely love all the videos you do, whether it's all cut content or tons of technical info. Keep it up!
Amazing work, thank you!
SO COOL. Thanks so much for your hard work in putting this together, and thank you for sharing!
"Take the relics of this room as your parting gift."
Hunter: Are you a relic?
Bossfight starts
Thank you for explaining how the game checks the event flags and going into such detail :3 Your content is so interesting and highly regarded Lance, thank you!
Really awesome video, thank you - such an elegant way of seeing something that I really wish had made it to the final cut of the game. Either way, we get to see it now thanks to you, so, thank you!
Bloodborne is my favorite game and seeing cut content makes so happy. You're the best, Lance! :D
This was amazing, thank you for this. This insight actually made the whole thing so much more and I'm sad they had to cut it.
Thank you for all your hard work, my dude.
Very interesting video! Thank you for the effort once more Lance!
This is really amazing. It's like finding the missing pieces of the puzzle! I love Bloodborne and you, Lance, for giving me quite an insight. Keep up the good work! :-)
This is the best cut content found to date. Love it!
Reminds me a bit of Sister Friede from DS3. She's guarding an alternate realm for the sake of someone else, she tells you to go away, you interfere, then she fights you.
just brilliant! please keep doing what your doing lance its absolute top drawer stuff!!!
I wish this questline was never cut, I feel so bad after killing maria
Amazing work as always
Thanks for the cut content :D
Great video, as always!
I enjoyed this and alot of your work. Thanks for showing me this :D
Brilliant work Lance!
Awesome video!
Amazing work!!
That was incredibly interesting, both regarding the technical aspects of how you accomplished this, and the cut content itself. Please keep doing content like this, it's always nice seeing what could have been
You're doing the Great One's work, Good Hunter.
Great content as always
love hearing about the technical side to your investigations!
This was super interesting! I honestly really enjoyed seeing you get a little into the technical side of it.
I'm so glad I subbed to you awhile back because this is some amazing shit! Wish you had more subscribers because I feel like every fan of Bloodborne should see this. Keep up the great work brother!
I love the technical minutia. I'll follow your work till next time
This is amazing, thank you man from Italy
Amazing work man.
Epic work! Great vid.
OMG this is so great. Can't imagine how you think of this. Good job!
Excellent video!
Thanks for sharing this.
This was really awesome. I wonder if there are any events related to the Orphan of Kos, or if the description for that boss says anything interesting.
Orphan of Kos and fishing hamlet is the best thing. Reeks of mystics
There's definetly something fishy about it
I love how the cliffs look like fortifications. There's nothing natural about them at all. After dropping down from the clockface walk along the isthmus and look up and left and you'll see what I mean. I haven't been able to pin any reason however
This was amazing. Thank you, Lance.
🍆
Thanks. Awesome work.
As always, keep up the good work!
As nice as it is to see expansive they were originally going with the game, I honestly like the final version of the encounter with Maria the best. There’s something about entering that place expecting to talk to the person who’ve you have heard so much about, only to see that she’s already “dead.” I honestly expected a giant monster to pop out, but no, just sexy asmr and a sword to the face.
this is so much better than what we got wtf. it would ave made the fight even better by adding much needed personality to her character.
Hell of a vid, well done
I love your content keep it up and thank you for all your effort
Dammit this is so freaking cool dude.
Thanks for this. Thanks for all this content you make.
Gonna go replay BB for the thousandth time now 😏
Fantastic video, mate. It was interesting to see what could have been but just didn't make the cut. Bloodborne is still a near flawless masterpiece of art in its final form, but I do wish if nothing else, this was kept in given how important Maria is in the lore of Bloodborne and the fantastic voice acting on Evetta Muradasilova's part. Ah well, still one of the best boss fights in video game history for me.
This is fantastic. Incredible detail in this game, and incredible of you to have found it. It makes me wonder what else is lost in the save files, what more is there to learn of this game.
Great find! Triggering the correct flags was a genius move and thank you for sharing this!
This was so cool thank you
I'd love to learn even more about technical side of your videos!
Dude, this is great!! Thank you for doing it.
I don't understand.. when this was so well done and complete, why not leave it? Expand on the best character of the game?
I think, with FROMSOFT, they prefer to leave things in your imagination. Maria was a much different character in my imagination before seeing this, and I think that's what FROMSOFTWARE wanted.
@@DebugMenu It really seems like a bad habit FROM has picked up in my opinion, where they cut swathes out of a title and staple the parts together, declaring the result 'ambiguous'. It's rather frustrating when you try and understand the lore of Bloodborne or Dark Souls 3 as presented in game only to learn much later that so much has been made incomprehensible by changes to the game during its development.
Lance McDonald I think they removed it because people might not know if she was a boss or not, so Fromsoft made it more straightforward so the player wouldn’t get confused.
Yeah, I get that feeling as well.
She is a great character, and quite a sad one.. possibly not giving her MORE lines makes her more appealing as a tragic "hero" when compared to the dialogue she would have.
Well there was an interview with The Guardian and Miyazaki and it said
"When Hidetaka Miyazaki was a child, he was a keen reader, though not a talented one. Often he’d reach passages of text he couldn’t understand, and so would allow his imagination to fill in the blanks, using the accompanying illustrations. In this way, he felt he was co-writing the fiction alongside its original author. The thrill of this process never left him - and it is very much there in his arcane and fascinating video games, the latest of which, Bloodborne, has just been released to wild acclaim."
Knowing that, it's pretty clear that he wants the player to do the same and fill in the story themselves. Pretty neat imo!
Man I love these content so much xD
This was awesome. I love Maria. Thanks.
Excellent video.
simon and maria are my two favs so the fact that they have cut content together makes me gleeful. thank you for sharing!
Aww thanks Lance :) My Soulsborne channel finally has the Lance seal of approval. I can die happy.
Everyone here is probably used to amazing content, considering how awesome Lance is at what he does, but if you ever need a break from the good content, I have a whole anthology of stuff that should be heard by no one, such as
The Doll (Podcast with JSF): czcams.com/video/NiFgBw29yNI/video.html
Maria (Podcast with JSF and Jeremy Greer from DGUS): czcams.com/video/9l9kUKxOmY4/video.html
The Maria lore that started it all: czcams.com/video/cDVngLNsA3o/video.html
Why Ludwig Killed Maria: czcams.com/video/6ul2-1YgfpI/video.html
Ludwgid admitting he Killed Maria: czcams.com/video/LEAQHXpV8HM/video.html
Well it looks like Ludwig didn't kill her after all.
This is actually Ludwig wearing a Simon mask
WTF FromSoft WTF!!! This is so damn interesting, and the technical side of this is amazing, I love it! Please do more kinds of technical/in depth types of stuff with Bloodborne, or the Souls Series if you can! Thanks for the awesome video :D So many secrets still to uncover...
wow just when I thought there was nothing left to discover in Bloodborne, I find your videos in my feed. It's amazing how detailed the developers were when making their games!
And you Sir Lance, are a legend in this community for having the computer skills and passion for delving further into the Nightmare to share your Insight with the rest of us peasants!
what you mean detailed? its cut content? lmao
Oh wowwowowowoww. I’m so happy you found this I adore maria So this was great
Lovely content :-)
‘Seeker of secrets’
These item descriptions our mine!
This is fascinating. Man, the complete Maria conversation log was awesome. Jaw on floor, mostly because she’s my favorite, but it also indicates (now with 100% certainty) that the Doll was modeled after Maria.
Great video
It was probably done to make a cooler scene. I'll tell you, finding her "dead" in the Clocktower was quite something. It was a mystery. Moreso in that I was not expecting her to be a Hunter, and especially not the Hunter on the cover of the Old Hunters. And then I got a good look at her. The... Doll? holy crap I was right. The Doll's template was a Hunter. I consider her to be more "sleeping" then dead in the finished game, the blood being due to her blood skills than an actual mortal wound since we see her stabbing herself in her boss fight. Or she "killed" herself so she could watch over the patients and the Hamlet in undeath forever. I remember that "Inspect Corpse" prompt and thinking "Uh oh".
Now, from a technical standpoint, her being "dead" was done so that we could initiate the boss fight, since that was the only way they programmed it. Also the cutscene.
YOUR CONTENT IS SUPERB
I love these videos they’re so interesting
Absolutely incredible!
Dude you are a legend
Hey Lance, really cool stuff ! I personally really enjoyed this type of video where you go into more technical details and the process of restoring some of that content, it's more engaging as a viewer for me at least.
I was wondering, have you had a chance to look at stuff concerning Annalise ? Her line "This chamber was made not for one alone..." and the existence of the Betrothal Ring definitely implies that there was initially more to that story and I'd really love to know if there's more stuff about that in the files.
Anyways, keep up the great work, love it !
Why did they cut this!!? This looks so amazing for the lore of the game, man thank u very much for the video, really cool to see both the content and how u got it :)
Ive been obsessed with Maria since the first time I saw her and this really made my year! My god you are a genius! Thanks a million for this!
So great! Thanks
That was amazing! Thanks for showing us this!
I wonder why they decided to scrap it. Fighting Maria after trying to kill her would be a good touch.
The player character kind of looks like Nicolas Cage. Bloodborne movie starring him when?? 😂
I don't know how you discover or restore this stuff time and time again, but it always amazes me 👌 great job
Dude the shit you keep finding is amazing