The Problem with the Doctor Who Diamond Logo
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2024
- Diamonds are forever. The new Doctor Who logo is not.
Delve into the world of logos, graphic design, and the conflation of the words logo, brand and franchise, as Jon takes you on an unhinged journey of 60 years of the Doctor Who logo.
Discover how the Diamond logo came to be, and learn the foibles of its 2023 reincarnation.
Disclaimer:
Doctor Who logos and associated imagery, insignias and characters belong to BBC Studios, its affiliates and derivatives.
Additional logos, wordmarks and icons featured in this video belong to their respective copyright & trademark holders.
No copyright infringement intended.
Sources:
The Tunnel Effect (2007): Available on ‘Doctor Who - Robot’ DVD Or ‘Doctor Who - The Collection: Season 12’ Box Set.
RadioFreeSkaro Interview with Chris Chibnall: radiofreeskaro.com/2023/02/28...
John Whitney’s ‘Catalog’ (1961):
• John Whitney "Catalog"...
Video explaining the Slit Scan technique:
• The History and Scienc...
Additional Sources:
friendlygiants.com/doctor-who
walkingfearless.com/work/doct...
www.studiobrewer.com/work/doc...
grahamkw/status/1...
Music:
Full Playlist of Music Featured: • The Logo Video - Track...
Duncan'sTheme: • Thomas & Friends - Dun...
Cover by Luke Pickman: / instrumentmaniac
Tracks by LEMMiNO
• LEMMiNO - Cipher (BGM)
• LEMMiNO - Encounters (...
CC BY-SA 4.0
Thanks to these artists for permission to feature their work:
/ rafeski_
/ oliverchenery
/ whoodieddw
Narrated by Jon Gransden
Written by Jon Gransden, Joel H Joelson & Billy Treacy
Additional help and observations from Richard B Brookes, Daniel Sherratt & Phoenix Smith
5WF Titles by Daniel Sherratt
5WF Theme by David Boskett & Richard B Brookes
Edited by Jon Grasnden
Follow FiveWhoFans on
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The FiveWhoFans Podcast is available on Spreaker: www.spreaker.com/show/the-five...
Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...
and on Spotify!: open.spotify.com/show/3rjm278...
Feel free to email us about anything at: thefivewhofans@gmail.com
Chapters:
00:00:00 - Introduction
00:01:20 - The Many Logos of Doctor Who
00:10:30 - Death of a Dream
00:18:57 - The Diamond Logo
00:28:44 - A 21st Century Overhaul
00:46:55 - Conclusion
#DoctorWho #Logo #GraphicDesign #VideoEssay #RTD #NcutiGatwa #DavidTennant #TARDIS #SonicScrewdriver - Krátké a kreslené filmy
Best 52 minute rant on a jpeg you don't like that anyone could possibly make
The comparisons with the Paw Patrol logo are deeply irritating to anyone over the age of 10. The Doctor Who diamond logo is a design classic.
if it's deeply irritating to you then I'd say your mental age must be around ten
19:32 That shape is not technically a rhombus... It's a square. Also it signifies the square roof of the tardis.
I think the reason for the Silver/Grey accents on the new logo has been specifically added to compliment the Disney+ homepage. They have a similar Blue/Silver colour scheme.
Great video!
If true, I’m not sure that’s a good reason to pick those colours? It still should look appealing.
Also I’m not sure if Doctor Who is automatically getting a tab on Disney plus - I know it’s a common fan fantasy, but seems a reach imo.
@@plantainsame2049all points I make in the video… doesn’t stop it looking bad in the primary implementation.
That's a reach.
The bottom corner has always looked like one of those picture corner things that people used to put on photos back when people put actual photos in actual albums. Like it was trying desperately to hold the diamond in place whilst giving it an element of unearned sophistication.
I'm calling the Chibnall logo the Forever Logo from now on. I love that, thank you!! It's my favorite logo and I mourn its loss.
Videos like this is why I have missed FiveWhoFans amongst their own wilderness years. Informative, expertly edited, funny, and spoken so well that it is impossible to lose your attention at the video. This might be up there as one of my favourite videos that the channel itself has ever done. I loved returning to the 2018 Logo Discussion, but now I'll be returning to this video even more, with the theme to Bertha (lovely Bertha) stuck in my head.
Does noone think it's a diamond because of the TARDIS? To me, I've always thought it was obviously the TARDIS as seen from below.
Are these video essays going to be a regular thing from you in the future, or is this more of a one-off? I enjoyed this and would love to see this channel continue down this path.
Graphic design majors.....wow....
Meanwhile I'm over here like "Thing look like old thing again...cool"
The 1987 logo may not be popular but it is very of time. Having a very blocky type face mixed with a scrawled/written style typeface appeared a lot. Whilst it doesn't work that well on merchandise - I love it in the title sequence.
A very enjoyable video
I think this logo only makes sense if it were only for the 60th as a way to honor the past logos in doctor who. If it weren't permanent I think I'd be far happier about it.
It's only for the 60th, so don't worry.
It’s not only for the 60th though, RTD said in DWM it was staying.
@@GingerAnimator The font text of the logo is staying, but the diamond part of the logo is only for the 60th
I don’t know where you’ve got that idea from, are you confusing *literal* Diamond logo with the full blue one?
They pretty clearly point out the diamond logo is staying but the *literal* diamond logo is for the 60th www.doctorwho.tv/news-and-features/a-history-of-the-doctor-who-logo
@@GingerAnimatorwhatever makes u sleep better at night 💀
not only is this a well constructed rant about the most niche subject ever i can relate to so much, but it also displays a killer music taste. I'm still recovering from that Talking Heads drop at 10:27
Watching this after the 60th Anniversary special. The new diamond logo feels so out of place in the new title sequence. Although I’m not the biggest fan of Jodie’s era, her logo is honestly the best one. It fits perfectly with everything.
Diamond logo for the Diamond Anniversary. Seems fair enough IMO
It's not the diamond anniversary anymore tho
I think they brought the Diamond logo back for the Diamond Anniversary!
I want to add: the new logo looks like a picture of the old logo was uploaded to Disney Pixar Ai Art
I cannot agree with you at all. This logo is brilliant.
fuck i'm never unseeing the arrows
Is it me or does Chris Chibnall sound a little like Simon Pegg 😅 Brilliant work on this video! The many logos of Doctor Who is something I've always wondered about. I love that DW Tardis logo from Capaldi's era and I like the diamond logo. I do agree it needs front lighting and turning up the saturation. I did an edit of it for a fake DW magazine cover and did just that. Although the diamond logo makes me want to move the text down, as it's off centre. Maybe it's to keep the WHO in the very centre though.
I do hope they stick with one logo at some point though... although it is fun to see a different take on it.
Also, YES, "BERTHA"?! Brilliant! Oh and the "This Is Your Life" theme 😅
Hey Marty! (I love when Whocentric channels pop-up in other comments)
@@SadBnnuy Hey SadBnnuy! Fancy seeing you here haha. It's so nice you said hi. I'm exactly the same! Always a joy to see a familiar name pop up!
This video is both very well made and incredibly ironic given that your channel pfp is clearly based off of the diamond logo.
I dunno if that’s irony… cos our diamond logo is still better than theirs.
@@FiveWhoFans no it's not. My Sony Ericsson logo is superior
The comparison of the diamond logo with the Paw Patrol logo I think is hilarious considering my nephew's favourite show is Paw Patrol.
A comparison I will not unsee!
You’re mean ☹️ I love the logo! 😭 But in all seriousness I found this video really interesting and informative! I didn’t think that the logo was perfect, and your video proves that it isn’t from a graphic design standpoint, but despite all of that I think that it might still be my favourite Dr Who logo to date! I like how it improves on some of the alignment issues of the original. And it being goofy isn’t really an issue for me, Doctor Who is a goofy show let’s be honest, so why not have a slightly unashamedly goofy logo to match 😂👍🏻
I’ll admit that it isn’t working on Big Finish covers. My hope is that the new title sequence shows an improved render, and that they use a render from that in branding once the series airs. And that they switch to the 2D version (preferably with the diamond!) on Big Finish covers and most other merch, and recolour it to match the colour scheme of whatever it is placed on.
best doccy who video essay i've seen in a whillle
it's a square. It's a square logo. I mean a square is just a rhombus with equally sized angles, but the "diamond" logo is a square, just been spun around 45 degrees, but that doesn't stop it being a square
Partition to change its name to 'The Square Logo'.
@@GingerAnimator you'd have my signature, guaranteed
I’m hoping this logo doesn’t last for all of Ncuti’s run, I don’t hate it, but it is a bit too much. They should bring back one like Pertwee’s
HOW does this video only have 5k views?? That's a bloody injustice if I've ever seen one!
I can't believe you guys came back and explained in full detail why I had problems accepting the logo. I somewhat understood the reintroduction of the diamond in the 60th (diamond year), but it felt janky with that bottom part and the weird asymmetries. I think they fixed it since then to feel closer to the classic one a little more, and I do like that it sort of resembles a TARDIS from the bottom or top view. I don't mind the new logo, in fact, it's a staple of Doctor Who history (having been a part of DWM, Marvel comics, etc) but logos like the 2005 one or this one are tough design elements to nail in compression (and I feel the 2005 one does it a bit better somehow). Personally, I feel the best logo so far was the 2010 one, though I actually enjoy the third doctor one (which later became the McGann logo) and McCoy's is very malleable and iconic too but very much a thing of its period.
Should we quit the text format or even keep one standard logo for everything? Never say never, as companies change logos sometimes and Doctor Who does it more than most to fit with the brand changes each Doctor goes through. I love the logo changes to identify each Doctor but I was bummed when they removed the 2010 icon, as it was the most versatile logo to work with and a very clever piece of design (and looks amazing in compression). Back then, I thought the problem was the double logo standard being more expensive, but this one is using two or three iterations. Apart from that, I feel the logo tells people a story that feels a bit misguided when you add all the elements of the 60th, as if the show's legacy had started in the 70s. Yes, it was the most commercial and iconic logo for a huge period of time, but something seems amiss from all this... as if they could've done something original with it.
Excellent and informative, but the diamond logo is my favourite, each to their own I suppose.
That steam locomotive bit had be laughing..
In relation to that, I think the arch shape resembles that of Headboards.. these being a nameplate like sign that would be put on the front of a locomotive when pulling a named train such as “The Flying Scotsman” or “The Cornishman”
great video Jon, very much enjoyed your insight into the rhombus logo.
Great work. This new diamond logo looks a bit like a hat that the Celestial Toymaker would wear.
For some reason, videos like this are some of my favorite kinds of videos to watch. Just an hour long deconstruction of something I also don't like, getting super nerdy and in-depth about all the details why. Top stuff.
God, I missed you guys.
I know you've been doing vids since the beginning of this year, just felt the need to say it here, since I thoroughly enjoyed this one. Made me quite nostalgic for your old content. Gonna miss you after this year.
Amazing video. I love the IDEA of the logo. But you are right in having both a unified and clear brand identity. It makes me wonder: Why didn't the new era just put the McGann-style version of the Pertwee logo ontop of the shield? It would have fit, harkened back to the old and retroactively unified two old usage of brand identies, and potentially become universal while being new too.
THE LEMON DEMON INTRO AHHH
God I love video essay of not so important nerdy topics
I once had a concept idea for an animated Doctor Who logo that blended the Hartnell, Davison & McCoy logos, yet also something of its own. It was stacked like the classic era and was supposed to have a sort of silvery tinted transparent shiny, almost mirror-like look to the "Who" part that had a distorted star field inside it, in contrast to the swirling time-vortex in the background, with a glowing golden or silver border around the "Who" part with the top starting with Dr before explosively expanding into the full Doctor title with a sort-of wired "starburst/thunderbolt" effect, I'm honestly unsure about it but I think someone better at this could get the idea to work.
Hmm, the first logo to get a modernized look was the 3rd Doctor era logo, then now we have the 4th Doctor's logo... next up, we'll perhaps get a new updated 5th/6th Doctor logo... and then after that... (Oh, I just had an idea for a little game where, just for fun, fans try to make updated versions of the classic era Doctor Who logos.)
Excellent video, Mr. Gransden.
The use of Thomas music is odd but I love it.
For me the issue is mostly down to the lighting and texturing of that render. Why is there basically no actual white in the logo at all? Is it supposed to be metal? Add some reflectivity to it. It looks like a dull grey paint coating. If you gave it some more shine and some proper highlights I think it would look much more legible. Also definitely fix that reflection issue on the bottom. If you took the render and design of the logo at 45:43 and swapped out the diamond texture, this would be a WAY better logo. I also prefer the shapes in the "cut" lines in the diamond over the curves, I think it's less cluttered.
But you didn’t like the logo made fat at 9:30 but you want the Jodie one to be bigger at 18:26?
31:15 I will never unsee that now XD
I absolutely agree with everything that this man said... on my own, I want to add: that at one time I liked the logo of the 13th doctor... remember the moment when the doctor lost his ring because the girl's fingers are thinner than the man's... it seemed to me that the logo was deliberately made in such a "round" style depicting the same ring... and it's probably a suspended scenario gun... Unfortunately not! Doctor Who doesn't have a good script anymore!
I didn't expect that bit about locomotive nameplates - that made me laugh.
I do agree that merchandise probably should just use the stencils. The only exception for me is situations where the logo is the sole focus - that's where I think the render should be used.
Watched this on my TV - only checked the time at 47 minutes! Would love more longer form stuff, it doesn't feel long form.
Now if only rtd2 went back to the hartnell era logo
I wonder if the flare around the diamond logon on their twitter (*sigh* "X") account is supposed to hint at the design of the title sequence, with the flare replacing the slit scan effect.
Kinda funny how the new logo looks great as a flat design but terrible as a 3D desifn
Ahhh yes John!! I loved your last logo video, looking forward to getting through this one 👌
I had to remodel the logo for my fan intro and I redesigned it slightly to a perfect diamond so I could move it backwards away from Doctor Who, to give the title more clarity, because my lighting was context driven. Also retexturing it gives the logo more visual interest, it’s too flat and perfect on the actual logo and looks worse
I love the new logo
I absolutely loved this. I recreated the new logo on blender and found out myself pretty quickly that something was whacky. The backplate not being a real diamond was making me pull my hair out. Thank you for explaining it so well!
great video i love the new old logo .reminds me of my childhood an the target book line .excited for the 60th .
I hope that this is feature length
According to the time stamps in the description it’s gonna be at least 47 minutes long
According to Wikipedia, feature length is "anything longer than 40 minutes", so yes this is feature length, but so are most episodes of Doctor Who lol.
I mean, the logo isn't even a rhombus, but a square (which is also a special rhombus, but if you care about calling it a diamond...)
what do you think about the fact that BBBC and Disney are now using the flat versine of the logo, but in two different colors?
Personally I love the Dimond logo. It is very nostalgic for me. When the new blue version was announced one of the first things I did was buy a T-Shirt with the new logo on. I have a couple with the old logo on and it looks really good on a shirt, just like the superman logo looks good on a shirt.
Glad this video popped up in my feed! Very entertaining… never realized I’d find logo analysis so interesting! 😃 That said, while the diamond logo has never been my favorite, I don’t mind this reintroduction. 🤷🏻
Great video Jon, thanks
I will say, even though the diamond logo isn't my favourite (Neon tubes FTW!) I *did* absolutely screencap the reveal animation and re-make my own version of the logo within 24 hours of it dropping xD (I even managed to do it without cheating and mis-shaping the edges of the diamond. Though that does mean the H is ever so slightly off-centred)
My own "rebranded" version definitely isn't perfect either. The gap between the I and L in 'MILK' is displeasingly off-centered and, whilst I've added to the plain blue colour with my on-brand purple and pinks the overall look is still pretty muted.
Also, looking at my channel icon in a zoomed out context (on the left of this comment, for example) you really can't read it at all and I'd never even considered that until just now!
OH MY GOD LEMON DEMON REFERENCE RIGHT UP FRONT
My dude really used Thomas Music in a Dr Who video?! I salute you!
It looks like an ice cream cone not hills.
My eye sees Guidelines
Great use of the Duncan theme from Thomas the tank early in the video- wonder who the fan on the team is
Thanks for that wonderfully made and researched piece... Personally I love the Rhombus design Its iconic of the show that has embedded itself into the show as much as Tom's scarf and when you need to appeal to an audience outside the UK then this might well do it...The diamond fit's with the concept of a time tunnel The 3D though I do agree with you makes it look fussy when it doesn't need to be... Personally Id like to see The Seal of Rassilon placed inside the diamond behind the lettering if your going to use the full diamond...
god i missed these videos
Did you really put a Rebuild of Evangelion reference in a Doctor Who logo video?
It would make since for another Roblox crossover.
"in a way that mediatesl the opsidedness." :)
This is an amazing dissection. Genuinely really interesting and well put together. The editing on this is fantastic too. More like this if you want to make them. But also understand if this was way too much effort.
Did you kidnap Linus Boman for this video?
The Forever Logo uses- 'Đoctor'. Đ is a Serbian letter. 😲.
Clearly a political statement.
The diamond logo is classic. The problem with the new logo is that it doesn't stand out enough due to the colours and way it's been recreated. Not terrible though. Also come on, the McCoy logo is great! 😆
Is... is that Duncan's theme I hear?
Yep..
It is hugely disappointing to see how little thought was put into the logo and new title sequence compared to Lodge’s work in 1973. The logo just pops up with no integration or relationship with the sequence. Considering the focus on the TARDIS in the titles, couldn’t they have perhaps framed the logo around the top of the police box?
Very enjoyable video - thank you! I've always thought that the arched 'doctor' section evokes the arched entrance to a holiday camp or faded victorian seaside amusement parks. Not keen on that element of it nor the bizarrely homeless 70s art-deco bits.... and I understand (partly) why you're saying it's not a good logo... but nevertheless, I LOVE it.
I kinda think of it as more of a badge, an icon or emblem - a symbol - than a logo. In that you basically need to know what it says already (not that easy to read at a glance from a distance) but I think that kinda does what it needs to do in that it's very, VERY recogniseable. Though hard to separate how it looks to a modern eye from the way it's been burned onto my visual cortex after years of VHS releases and Target novels.
I'm kinda hopeful it'll work quite well. Paw Patrol is popular.... is this a bad thing?
Absolutely brilliant video, right up my street. I'd love to see even more videos like this going forward! :)
idk looks fine to me
Five Who Fans is like Harry Hill to me. Bad opinions/bad TV has been running amuck, unchecked, for too long now.
have you ever even seen an episode of Harry hills TV burp lmao
@@ennayannethat is why he thinks Harry Hill is bad. It's pretty bad like Five Who Fans.
@@pyeltd.5457 wtf are you talking about
I just can't unsay sombrero at the top ("Doctor" arch plate, plus the tip of the diamond). I just want the diamond gone.
Señor Who
39:38 OH NO!!!!! It's A "NOT-Diamond"
I really liked the original render, and think something with those colors and that lighting would look rather nice on Disney+ next to all those Marvel logos
Annoyingly I agree with every complaint you have about the ugly render they’re using
And the merch and branding should just be using the excellent stencils. The full 3d should just be on poster, the titles, and the Disney+ icon and should be a render more like the reveal one.
Leave the diamond logo alone.....it's the best one....although I agree about the 3d version
Agree totally with all of this, and have felt very much the same for a while. The flat versions are actually quite fun, and when they've been used (particularly on a book range), they bridge the nostalgic and the modern really well! If they were to pick any to be the 'main' logo, the flat horizontal one has my vote; the logo in the titles doesn't have to be the same as the one on merch, as we've seen with the LOTR films, and pretty much every Marvel movie.
Additionally, your edits of a flat colour version with changing colours are GORGEOUS, particularly the DWM Pride one. I also enjoyed the MUCH BETTER flat colour version you added at the end!
44:26 Looks more like "Guidelines" to me
I think of the square as the base/top of the tardis and the iner ones show the bits of the base yhat go oit as yhe lines and the bit at the top that goes in as tge other
audio balancing needed a bit of polish on this one💀
video was epic apart from that
Excellent video, I really enjoyed it. However... I LOVE the "new" logo.
I still stand by 2010's logo being my favorite
Same.. during the intro sequence, I loved how it literally turned into the TARDIS
@@terrier_productionsDOCTORDWWHO really? 😂
@@ennayannemy opinion is mine
@@terrier_productions is it a real opinion though?
11 is my doctor. He is my favourite..@@ennayanne
It's over complicated, kinda goofy, and a bit jarring. It doesn''t work together as a cohesive piece and is obsessed with referencing previous iterations. It sums up the TV show perfectly.
Loved this video, even though I completely disagree
0:46 Argh - sacrilege: Michael Bay version of the Decepticon logo! Argh! Blegh!
I love your video, but I'm downvoting because all your opinions are wrong...
"mediatesl the opsidedness" ...
It's always good to see Delia credited along with Ron ... a very rare always, I can't believe they couldn't stretch rules and put her in the credits despite Murray's new mixes.
wow
Great video. All of your points regarding the various logos are valid and on point. However I totally disagree with your view on the " Diamond" logo. I believe it is iconic and instantly identifiable. It also resonates emotionally with many and totally works as a brand identifier. I do agree with you that simplifying the logo as you demonstrated works much better. Having said that the "Pertwee" logo is my favourite
but he literally stated that it's iconic
Brilliant insightful and thought provoking vid. But you are quite wrong. Diamond is iconic, nostalgic well loved and identified with the show and the new variant looks great and fresh yet echoes the past too. ;)
I’m so glad I’m not the only one who has never been a fan of the diamond logo
I think its ridiculous that you are criticizing the very logo that you use in your CHANNEL IMAGE